Author Topic: The Unseen - a Reseen IIC Explanation, and a List (Updated, March 2016)  (Read 37557 times)

worktroll

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Whether it's a high-risk or low-risk target, TPTB considered it a potential risk, and that's where we are today.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Wellard2006

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So what effect does TRO 3085 have on this ruling..which uses Artwork for the Reseen
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worktroll

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Not sure what your question is here, Wellard.

In canon, as per 3067 the mechs which comprise the "unseen" are no longer being produced in the "unseen" form. New manufacture, and significant upgrades, are done in "reseen" form. So TRO 3085 correctly shows what you'd expect to see those designs looking like in 3085 - in the Project Phoenix versions.

That doesn't mean there aren't some older designs still knocking about, in backwater militias, periphery kingdoms, or as-yet undiscovered star-league era caches. But most militaries have either scrapped the old versions, or upgraded them to the new specs over time.

Now I notice that you've also posted an item about the Palladium Robotech minis. Anticipating a few questions:

1) You're free to buy Robotech minis for use in your own Battletech games, in the same way you're free to buy CAV, Mekton, MechWarrior:Dark Age or other minis for use in your own games. You can kitbash, sculpt or gnaw from soap your own minis for use in your own games.

2) BattleTech will never again be using art from or directly inspired by external sources related to Macross, Robotech, or any of the related incarnations of that product - or pretty much any other external source not controlled by Topps or CGL. The copyright issues just aren't worth getting involved in again.

3) Catalyst Game Labs will not be using miniatures classed as "unseen" in any official games or events.

4) You'll be welcome to post pictures of minis made for Palladium's Robotech game. The only minis we don't allow to be shown are illegal reproductions - that includes recasts of someone else's work, or derivatives of someone else's IP made without permission of the copyright holders.

Hope that helps,

W.

* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Sigma

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2) BattleTech will never again be using art from or directly inspired by external sources related to Macross, Robotech, or any of the related incarnations of that product - or pretty much any other external source not controlled by Topps or CGL. The copyright issues just aren't worth getting involved in again.

Source on this? Last I heard, they were still keeping their options open. Or is operation Dark Phoenix now in motion? Not like I didn't notice Plog's Mad in XTRO:SW 1 taking some heavy cues from Shimmy's beast. Actually...Shimmy did the cover didn't he?

worktroll

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If you're talking about possible retcons associated with artwork, I believe that's off the table, although hasn't been incinerated ;) However, any decision to provide new artwork to replace the older Macross-derived designs would be exactly that - new artwork.

Consider the Marauder variant in XTRO: Succession Wars. Artistically it's not directly derived from the Officer's Pod Glaug - it's an original creation, just like the TRO:Phoenix designs are new artistic creations. As I understand it right now, it was in canon a limited production variant on the classic "shellback" Marauder in production in the 2900s. If for some reason Herb decided the "shellbacks" had never actually existed, he could use the XTRO:SW version if he chose to replace it - but Herb's said he has no intention of doing so.

Any grey areas in the above are due to my limitations & current understanding of the legal and business decisions involved, and should not be construed to assume anything up to and including Herb canonising my kitbashes as replacements for the Yeoman, the Templar's legs, and any other design elements people find personally unaesthetic ;)
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

StCptMara

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I am wondering: Since the Blood Kite was not given a picture on its sheet in RS3067u...does that mean that
the Blood Kite is now Unseen? If so...why?
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worktroll

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No, it appears this was just an oversight, or as we technically call it a "booboo". The Blood Kite is still totally Seen, in all it's warty, 5" stiletto heel glory ;)
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Stinger

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What's the story with the Hellhound?  This thread says that it is unseen, but I have two examples of it existing in official places:

http://www.camospecs.com/Miniature.asp?ID=5240

and

http://bg.battletech.com/wp-content/uploads/10%20Previews/FAS1689_The%20Falcon%20and%20the%20Wolf_Preview.pdf - on page 8.

Are these just errors?

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Master Unit List website - where to find units, what factions use them, what's their BV?
http://www.masterunitlist.info
3025-3050 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info and Quirk lists.
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

davitch

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Okay, here is a question, I have pictures of Unseen that I painted years ago, but I sold the miniatures, may I still post the pictures as mine, or do I have to find the buyer and ask him if I can use the image since I sold him the miniature?
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worktroll

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Fortunately, all CGL's Unseen ninja are currently tied up trying to find Dave the Toymaker ;)

On a serious note, if you painted them, please feel free to post them. We're trying to stop
- people displaying illegal repros
- people entering dangerous legal waters
- and people claiming work not their own as their own, which is usually done as advertising, which is its own bad thing.

Please share!

W>
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Daemion

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Fortunately, all CGL's Unseen ninja are currently tied up trying to find Dave the Toymaker ;)

On a serious note, if you painted them, please feel free to post them. We're trying to stop
- people displaying illegal repros
- people entering dangerous legal waters
- and people claiming work not their own as their own, which is usually done as advertising, which is its own bad thing.

Please share!

W>

So, kitbashes are allowed for that reason? They're not necessarily reproductions.
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worktroll

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Kitbashes aren't a problem, as long as they're not built with repro parts. When you buy (for example) a MW:DA ForestryMech, you've got the right to hack it up & make a BT-scaled Rifleman from it if you choose.

Cheers,

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Daemion

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How, then, do you handle the notion that someone might not know if an unseen mini is a repro of an old Ral Partha mini or not, and they post a pic when they're done painting?

When it comes to that kind of thing, I know I'm far from an expert. But, they exist, looking like legitimate miniatures that were legal back in the day, and non-experts may assume it's legit. Are you taking the innocent until proven guilty approach?



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Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

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Brooklyn Red Leg

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Guess this list should also include what appear to be the ultimate Unseen: the Robotech/Southern Cross Veritech Ajax (Auroran) and Robotech/Mospeada Veritech Alpha Fighter (Legioss). Apparently, they appeared in The Spider and the Wolf module years ago. }:)

HikageMaru's awesome banner thread is here

worktroll

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When it comes to that kind of thing, I know I'm far from an expert. But, they exist, looking like legitimate miniatures that were legal back in the day, and non-experts may assume it's legit. Are you taking the innocent until proven guilty approach?

Basically yes - there are ways of identifying illegal reproductions with some confidence. The usual response will be a quick query to the poster, followed by a mutually amicable resolution. Repetition however would be less well regarded.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

worktroll

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Guess this list should also include what appear to be the ultimate Unseen: the Robotech/Southern Cross Veritech Ajax (Auroran) and Robotech/Mospeada Veritech Alpha Fighter (Legioss). Apparently, they appeared in The Spider and the Wolf module years ago. }:)

These haven't been a real issue - they only appeared in one now OOP product, no minis were made, and few people have ever seen TSatW. If pressed, Rule 8 and/or Rule 12 can be invoked if relevant.

Cheers,

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

mike19k

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Fortunately, all CGL's Unseen ninja are currently tied up trying to find Dave the Toymaker ;)

On a serious note, if you painted them, please feel free to post them. We're trying to stop
- people displaying illegal repros
- people entering dangerous legal waters
- and people claiming work not their own as their own, which is usually done as advertising, which is its own bad thing.

Please share!

W>

Question about the 3rd one, kind of. I have had most of my minis painted by someone else, can I post photos of them as long as I do not say I painted them? Or do I need to say who painted them? Or just no photos?

worktroll

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That's not a problem here. We're worried about illegal use of IP. As you commissioned the painting, you own it.

Admittedly it's not cool to claim someone else's work as your own (there was a big fuss about this at the Golden Demons a few years back), but you aren't required to name who did it. It's nice to, though. But that's all outside Rule-infringement territory.

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Dreammirror

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2 quick questions. First, I am given to understand the Peregrine(Horned Owl), 35 ton light clan mech in the original 3055 book is now unseen.  Which company currently has the commercial art rights for it? It reminds me of the robotech designs so I would guess Harmony Gold.   Number 2, as I am trying to hunt down an original ral partha mini of that particular unseen(on ebay and soforth), is there a topic board here that fans can use to post to each other for particular minis they are looking for for sale/trade?  If not I'll understand.  Thx for any info you can provide!

Frabby

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2 quick questions. First, I am given to understand the Peregrine(Horned Owl), 35 ton light clan mech in the original 3055 book is now unseen.  Which company currently has the commercial art rights for it? It reminds me of the robotech designs so I would guess Harmony Gold.
For all we know, FASA had the legal rights to the Peregrine image; this was never contested. However, since the art was done out-of-house for FASA by a third party, it has been decided to treat it as unseen as a precaution.
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Lord Cameron

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2 quick questions. First, I am given to understand the Peregrine(Horned Owl), 35 ton light clan mech in the original 3055 book is now unseen.  Which company currently has the commercial art rights for it? It reminds me of the robotech designs so I would guess Harmony Gold. 
Nope, the art was done by Victor Musical Instruments for FASA, but the rights are not owned by FASA/FANPRO/Catalyst, so presumably reside with VMI
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worktroll

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Number 2, as I am trying to hunt down an original ral partha mini of that particular unseen(on ebay and soforth), is there a topic board here that fans can use to post to each other for particular minis they are looking for for sale/trade?  If not I'll understand.  Thx for any info you can provide!

Welcome! I'd recommend having a quick look at the forum rules. As you'll see, Rule 10 means no selling/trading/looking for either on the forums. Other BattleTech forums do host trade & sell forums - I personally use the trade & sell at Lords of the Battlefield, but both OurBattleTech and BattleTech Universe forums have their own markets.

Cheers,

Worktroll, Administrator.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

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Pure gold to a new 'Warrior like myself!
Thanks for pinning this, really made my day reading this over (actually no, I lie....THIS made my day http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=170929)
But this thread definitely completed an otherwise fabulous spin on Terra's axis
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worktroll

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Okay, small update - the Galleon from TRO 3058 (also known as the 3048 Galleon, thanks to its in-game introduction date) is no longer considered Unseen. The TRO 3025 art associated with the Galleon is still Unseen.

This doesn't represent a major shift in the issues associated with the Unseen - just a review of that particular image's status. TPTB have now ruled it sufficiently different from the original Crusher Joe-sourced art.

That is all ...

[edit] Not quite; have correctly attributed the "ComStar Three" to TRO 3058, not TRO 3055. Thanks Cache for the heads-up.

Worktroll, Administrator.
« Last Edit: 10 November 2014, 22:34:51 by worktroll »
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

mcjomar

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Hello,

Just chiming in to request a clarification RE: anything non-HG related.

I remember for the anniversary box set some deals were done to allow for mechs like the shadowhawk/griffin/wolverine, locust, and thunderbolt to make them no longer "unseen" - including an announcement in a few locations on these/old boards.
Has this since been reversed?

Cheers
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nckestrel

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Yes, it was reversed very (very) soon after the announcement.
Master Unit List website - where to find units, what factions use them, what's their BV?
http://www.masterunitlist.info
3025-3050 Random Assignment Tables -
Also contains faction deployment & rarity info and Quirk lists.
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=1219.0

mcjomar

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That's a pity - mostly because of the locust and shadowhawk, and a bit because of the battlemaster and wolverine.

That being said, I tend to prefer the reseen and MWO version of the thunderbolt and battlemaster and griffin, and the MWO version of the wolverine (and the wolverine 2 is brilliant). As for the locust, the MWO version is brilliant, and the reseen model is nice too - though I'd like to see more of the primitive styles like the primitive shawk and tbolt.
Thanks for the info!  :)
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So, question: I know that there were two groups of unseen, the ones from the lawsuit, and the undisputed ones that happened to be sourced from out of house. Do the prohibited models include the latter? Or only the former, as FASA simply stopped using that artwork, it was never legally contested.

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So, question: I know that there were two groups of unseen, the ones from the lawsuit, and the undisputed ones that happened to be sourced from out of house. Do the prohibited models include the latter? Or only the former, as FASA simply stopped using that artwork, it was never legally contested.

If it's listed in the first post, it's prohibited. It's the point of the post. "Phoenix" and "Primitive" miniatures should be substituted in official events.
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