Author Topic: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?  (Read 59571 times)

worktroll

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #150 on: 13 March 2011, 18:09:47 »
So, should the question become "Do carrier DropShips render lighter WarShips obsolete?"

(I feel a bit like a supporter of the battlecruiser concept must have felt like in the 1930s. Yes, the writing was on the wall for the concept, but it looks so beautiful that one closes one's eyes to the evidence of one's senses ...)

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Stormfury

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #151 on: 13 March 2011, 18:15:18 »
It's another yes and no situation. Bay doors have an impact, as does the air group's size.

A Leopard-CV isn't obsoleting anything, for example.
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worktroll

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #152 on: 13 March 2011, 18:17:50 »
Re bay doors - how often does an "ambush" happen in space? Under most circumstances I'd imagine there'd be time to get your ships into operation.

(Besides, I've always loved the way they launched Starfuries from the bays on the rotating hull of B5. Just let go, and off you go! Much cooler to me than Galactica-style 'railgun' launchers. Though I assume the Starfuries have to dock elsewhere, and travel by funicular railway back to the drop bays ;) )

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Aerohead

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #153 on: 13 March 2011, 18:38:13 »
I don't know.  there seems to be something a bit more nostalgic and familiar to the railgun launch than the B5 vision.  For me both work, but I much prefer the "active" nature of a launch from the Galactica!

I have to say the SCL-3 is by far the superior weapon of choice for the PWS weapons platform.  But in the face of another 2 fighters per weapon?  I lean towards fighters. 

I have trended towards viewing the PWS as the next evolution of the Assault Dropship.  Never could they replace Warships, but any Warship that is going into combat without one, should be ready for some hate.

This perhaps is a question for another thread.  How would these Sub Cap weapons alter the combat profile of the weakest Warships? (looking at Vin here).  If i am not mistaken, you could replace the Capital cannons of the Vincent with Subcaps of identical range with double the damage output!?  (still wouldn't fight with the paper thin armor, I was just saying...)

verybad

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #154 on: 13 March 2011, 19:01:34 »
It's another yes and no situation. Bay doors have an impact, as does the air group's size.

A Leopard-CV isn't obsoleting anything, for example.

Against any dropships it's size or smaller that don't carry fighters it should win...

Fact of the matter is, the nastiest fighters in space are fighters. PWS that aren't carriers should be designed for maximum AAA capability, or be fast and capable of staying away from heavy fighter quadrons. PWS/Assault Dropships are still useful because they have some unique or uncommon capabilities (Orbital Artillery in some cases). They're often pretty tough, and in an offensive role (ie where you get to attack a target you feel you have a better than even chance at killing) they're good. Not so certain about defense. An orbiting station with fighters as it's main combat strength would probably be better. (and cheaper)

Sure a custom PWS can be built that can take on a weak warship. Let custom warships take them on and you're really proven nothing except that canon designs are intentionally inefficient. This isn't news.

I declair fighters have won this thread. I will now go back to my box of ignoration.
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Marwynn

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #155 on: 13 March 2011, 19:07:33 »
Another question - in the scenario described by Tekteam26 above, do the sub-capital weapons add significant value when the PWS is acting as a supporting platform, or would it be more efficient to replace them with more fighters?

W.

Fighter, additional AMS/Armour/ECM, still win out overall. The SCWs aren't more efficient than Capital Weapons, and most CapWeps are usually better replaced with ASFs as well.

The limit really is the number of launch capable bay doors. So you can't create mega-Vengeances and expect the same efficiency.

Still, I'm wary of including ASFs as a PWS' designs "primary weapons". How do you distinguish an Armed Carrier from a Fighter Support Vessel?

Kamov

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #156 on: 13 March 2011, 19:42:26 »
Re bay doors - how often does an "ambush" happen in space? Under most circumstances I'd imagine there'd be time to get your ships into operation.

For Battletech, the classic ambush scenario is when one group is hanging out a jump point and an enemy force pops in at the same jump point.

Even then, the distance between the two forces could be pretty large, and allow a carrier-ship to launch plenty of fighters.  *If* the distance isn't large enough, then the force with the big guns is gonna enjoy a turkey shoot, and all the turkeys are in a coop.

I kind of think that sort of scenario is limited to Btech Novels, where the desire for dramatic scenarios wins, vs. probability, 100% of the time.  Kind of like Warships as multibillion C-Bill battering rams.
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Gracus

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #157 on: 13 March 2011, 20:13:40 »
No.

Otherwise, you get into "No dude, the Targe is totally the best thing ever, and if there's a problem it can't handle then that's what the regiment of Atlas IIs I've assigned as support to each one come in." territory.


I don't think that's actually what's happening.  It's more along the lines of "Dude, the Archer totally sucks because it can barely fight at close range." 
Your stupid little opinion has been duly noted.

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tekteam26

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #158 on: 13 March 2011, 20:28:16 »
Another question - in the scenario described by Tekteam26 above, do the sub-capital weapons add significant value when the PWS is acting as a supporting platform, or would it be more efficient to replace them with more fighters?

W.

The big problem with that is launch rates. The number of launch doors is limited by the small size of any DropShip-sized carrier. When you get above a certain number of fighters, it just takes too long to launch all of the fighters that you have. You might as well invest in the big guns and/or missiles for your PWS/carrier for the extra punch.
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NightmareSteel

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #159 on: 13 March 2011, 20:32:04 »
See Worktrolls post above.  I agree, that's not going to come up very often.  Standard tactic post jump *should* be to launch a couple flights of fighters to establish CSP anyway, so that the big ship has enough time to scramble fighters in case of ambush.

verybad

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #160 on: 13 March 2011, 20:48:40 »
Pretty much this.

The likelihood of a carrier based task force being "ambushed" in space is about 0.0000000000001% Having a PWS accelerate from a planet or asteroid the carrier is near might be a possibility, but that can also be limited by using intelligent patrolling and operations systems, not bringing the whole ****** carrier to check out a blown up station for example.

Space is really fricking big, and except under specific and very uncommon circumstances (jumping in near a task force is pretty muc the only way for this to happen)

Even the Zenith and Nadir locations are not specific, small areas, they're millions of kilometers across. The only reason they're used is because they're the least likely for there to be space debris, even so military operations aren't held to them. A carrier can accelerate AWAY from an enemy task force while launching to mitigate any proximity based problems, and for more than a few minutes, even high g capable assault dropships won't be able to accelerate usiing their full thrust (when crewmembers start having heart attacks it's time to ease off the gas).

Just like in the real world, carriers are the true capital ships in battletech. They decide wars. Orbital Artillery and AAA support for your transports still leaves a role for Warships and Assault Dropships however.
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Fireangel

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #161 on: 13 March 2011, 21:10:37 »
The battle was joined, the forces have clashed and the results are in.



We started the battle like we start most battles; lead elements 100 hexes apart each with the entire forces at velocity 10. This allows for plenty of maneuvering and allows for a more realistic depiction of combat in open space. All fighter and small craft start the game already launched. My opponent, the Colonel, starts his task force in three squadrons; the main force of the Fox (LAS Immaculate) and one GI (LADS Lauren G. Abercrombie) holds the center as Blue Squadron whilst Red Squadron (LADS Jorgen Bernabé and LADS Frida Caraballo) and Green Squadron (LADS Anastasia Darnell and LADS Murdoch Egbert) flank Blue at a distance of 20 hexes on either side. Each squadron moves in echelon with one hex between them. The fighters form up in squadrons between the three primary squadrons.

On the other side of the map, Agamemnon-class FWLS Penthesilea maintains a tight formation with its dropships, keeping the Vengeance-class FWLDS Heri Apab and Overlord-class FWLDS Alberta Marik in its same hex within its sensor shadow, with the Hannibal-class FWLDS Lime Archipelago two hexes behind it and the Interdictor-class FWLDS Oriente Nadir two hexes in front, with all fighters in the same hexes as the Penthe and the Oriente.

Advanced aerospace movement rules are in play, as are individual weapon ranges and ECM/sensor shadow rules. Individual initiative is also used, modified by craft type.

First turn, the Lyran fighters boost forward the FWL force, the FWL force breaks left and boosts hard to prevent itself from getting flanked, maintaining tight formation. Red, Blue and Green squadrons begin a pivot to vector them into the FWL force while maintaining their formation.

After a few turns of maneuvering, the FWL force releases its fighters and Oriente to intercept the inbound Lyran fighters, Penthe makes aggressive maneuvers to bring it into extreme capital range with Red Squadron the following turn and the remaining dropships maintain their formation, following Penthe a few hexes behind. Red squadron and Abercrombie launch Krakens.

The furball ensues; Red’s fighters engage the FWL’s interceptors at short capital ranges, Blue’s at Medium. Though heavily outnumbered, the League fighters have an advantage; their mission is to destroy as many Lyran fighters as possible; to this end they fire their entire inventory of AAArrows at the heaviest enemy fighter squadrons, while the Lyrans only use their LAA missiles, since their Arrows are meant for the enemy warship and droppers. All League ships engage the inbound fighters with massive firepower from everything at their disposal, from their AAA bays to the massive capital bays set to bracket fire; fatal thresholds decimate the inbound fighters, even as League squadrons shatter. At the end of the turn, the command is given for the League fighter squadrons to break into individual (capital) fighters in order to cover as many Lyran squadrons as possible (we broke out a roll of dimes, marked with a sharpie to represent the surviving fighters).

Blue Squadron opens up as Abercrombie boosts to extreme range. Red squadron attempts to open range between it and Penthe. Penthe brings her broadside to bear and fires three capital laser bays and her naval gauss bay, hitting Bernabé on the starboard side with one laser bay and the gauss bay, causing a combined 410 points of damage and forcing a thresholding check (damaging its docking collar). Return fire with Barracudas fails to overcome Penthe’s ECM and AMS/PDW. Red Squadron’s Krakens take heavy damage from several AA bays and, combined with ECM and AMS, fail to hit Penthe.

Red Squadron boosts out of range, firing screen launchers to cover their movement and launches a second Kraken from each ship. Fighters die in droves, as heavier single fighters inflict fatal thresholds on lighter fighter squadrons and heavy squadrons hunt down the lone birds. Abercrombie’s Kraken slams into Apab, inflicting heavy damage on her nose armour; thresholding doesn’t work, but capital missile-critting damages its avionics. Blue’s squadrons don’t play nice and use all their external ordnance on the League fighters. Oriente gets targeted by Abercrombie’s, Immaculate’s and Red’s barracudas at long range (but outside Oriente’s SCL/1 range), chewing away 80 points of armour off her port side and blowing away her cargo bay before she can vector out to open the range. Green’s fighters make a bee-line for Penthe. Apab, Lime and Anastasia boost together into a vector to open the range between them, the Immaculate and Red Squadron.

Green Squadrons fighters engage Penthe with their external missiles. Penthe presents its starboard broadside to them, as does Apab. Lime and Anastasia assume defensive positions against the inbound fighters of Green Squadron screaming in for a high-speed pass. Green and Blue Squadrons pour barracuda fire into the furball, with Immaculate targeting Oriente with her naval lasers, hitting the nose for armour damage only while two of three Krakens strike Oriente, inflicting armour damage, damaging the thrusters and taking its nose VSPL bay out of the fight. Red Squadron’s Krakens strike Penthe, damaging a fighter launch door and knocking the gravdeck out of commission. AAArrow, LAA and extreme conventional range fighter fire inflicts considerable damage on Penthe’s armour, but failing to penetrate even once. Bracketed fire and very heavy
AAA fire from Penthe, Lime, Apab, Anastasia and the league small craft (held in reserve in the sensor shadows of the larger craft) inflict very heavy damage on the fighter squadrons, destroying two outright and forcing the others to break up to avoid a similar fate.

Much to everyone’s surprise, at this point the “overwhelming” fighter advantage had essentially been neutralized. The remaining fighters continued to fight each other without affecting the rest of the battle. Oriente boosted from the main battle and, along with the League fighters threatened the Lyran small craft force, which had been shadowing the battle for an opportunity to strike.

Two more turns of ineffectual Kraken fire (they just couldn’t overcome the AAA damage/ECM/AMS/PDW combo without fighters distracting the gunners) as the two forces vectored around each other trying to gain an advantage. When the Colonel saw an opportunity to bring his formation in to “cap the T” on my force, I sprung my trap; boosting to an attack vector and maneuvering to present my undamaged broadside to his force, all units were within Long capital range of each other.

A rain of capital missiles came towards the Penthe; four out of five of Immaculate’s barracudas failed to hit, producing no crits. A cocktail of five White Sharks (love that critting mod) and five Killer Whales (very hard to kill with AMS) netted 11 capital points of damage and a damaged dropship collar, while Immaculate’s capital lasers and autocannon actually penetrated to the SI of the Penthe (notably, not the same facing hit by the missiles), killing its remaining grav deck and taking out the forward side ERPPC bay. Penthe’s return fire was murderous; Bernabé and Egbert were each hit by a NAC bay (60 points), with Egbert getting hit by an additional Naval Gauss and Bernabé by two NL55 bays. Both ships were instantly destroyed; Egbert cored through the nose, Bernabé through its undamaged side.

Darnell vectored out, firing its tail missile (and missing) as it boosted. Immaculate maneuvered to present a good broadside, Abercrombie shifted position to be further away from Penthe than Immaculate. Caraballo, knowing that it could never get out of range due to its vector, boosted in for a nose-first two-bay kiss. Penthe maneuvered to present its aft quarters towards Immaculate, protecting its exposed forward quarter. Simultaneously, she presented her least-damaged broadside at the approaching Caraballo.

The Lyran capital missiles were mostly neutralized by AAA/AMS/PDW/ECM from the League force (one of Abercrombie’s Killer whales hit, but just damaged armour).

Caraballo was engaged at medium capital range; she took 101 points of capital damage to her nose. She managed to inflict 24 points of damage on the Penthe (she missed with the SCC bay, hit with both others) but failed to penetrate the armour in any way before being cored. Darnell took a 30-capital point hit from a Naval Gauss in her tail damaging docking collar equipment. Abercrombie literally dodged a bullet when it got hit only by an 11-capital point naval laser bay; Immaculate got slammed with 80 capital points on the nose, losing the NACs located there and taking damage to its internal structure. Penthe survived that bay’s last volley with only armour damage.

It was agreed that further combat was pointless; the remaining two GI’s and the Fox might have been able to kill the Penthe, but they risked their own destruction in the process.

The Lyran fighters that survived were much too mauled and scattered after the furball to be much use – even if they did manage to take out most League fighters – and they would have been fodder for the League AAA fire.

Much game time (too much!) was spent with the fighter action, but when all is said and done, the fighters alone failed to do more than neutralize the enemy fighter formation; the addition of an Interdictor to support the League fighters had a HUGE impact on their effectiveness, as did breaking heavy fighter squads into singles and pairs to face lighter fighter squadrons. ECM had a huge impact on the battle, especially in concert with concentrated AMS/PDW fire. The problems with teleoperated missiles severely limited their usefulness; it was agreed that the AR10 launcher on the nose would have been better, since it could fire every turn. The boarding craft were not even an issue.

From the results of the battle, our combined assessment of the GI based on this one battle is that:

A)   It would be better served replacing its nose SCC bay with additional missile/AAA systems all around and/or cargo/fuel to service its fighter wing.
B)   Under absolutely no circumstances should the GI close to anywhere near capital long range with anything that can potentially kill it with one shot.
C)   Capital ECM and even basic point defense greatly lessens the danger from capital or sub-capital missiles of any sort. Better AMS can render even the mightiest kraken a non-issue.
D)   Even as “part of a system”, the GI cannot deliver on its promise to be “deadly to most warships short of a heavy cruiser” any more than a foot rifle infantry trooper can claim to be “deadly to most assault ‘mechs under 85 tons” because he is part of a system that includes 83 other troopers just like him AND twelve 3026 Goblins with close air support and a lance of light ‘mechs.

What can the GI do? Well, it does work well against other PWS; it has strong AAA defenses, AMS and a well-rounded compliment. It works well as an escort carrier for warships short on fighters. As part of a task force (with a jumpship, a supply dropship and a lesser escort) it can serve well as a surrogate warship in state and patrol functions and can also work well as a commerce raider. In a pinch, it can engage some of the smallest and weakest canon warships with a reasonable chance of success, but you need to keep in mind that these ships are already obsolete in-universe, with overlarge cargo holds, weak armour, practically non-existent anti-fighter defenses and factually non-existent AMS.



NightmareSteel

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #162 on: 13 March 2011, 21:19:52 »
Thanks for the summary, I have been awaiting the results with bated breath.

So it would seem that WarShips haven't been made obsolete tactically, after all.

worktroll

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #163 on: 13 March 2011, 21:20:18 »
Thanks, Fireangel and the Colonel! And a cracking good read.

You didn't happen to take any pics of the battle, did you? Just trying to visualise the positions, but it makes my head hurt  :D

W.
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* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
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Fallen_Raven

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #164 on: 13 March 2011, 21:58:43 »
Sounds like an interesting battle, and a fine example of testing something to test it's viability.
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Kamov

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #165 on: 13 March 2011, 22:10:49 »
 [applause]

I am in awe of the battle summary - managing to break that much action down into concise descriptions.  So impressive!
(The above writing is entirely my opinion based upon my own incomplete knowledge of life, the universe, and everything beyond it and should be taken as such although I don't want to tell you what to do, because that's your right and your freedom to choose your own opinions and ablah blah blah legalese etc etc)

Fireangel

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #166 on: 13 March 2011, 22:21:59 »

Now with the GI, the PWS and the fighters operate as a team. The fighters will enjoy the ECM and long range fire support of the GI while coming on on the attack run.

Problem: this brings the GI into range of the warship’s capital bays, which is a Bad Thing.

Quote
If the WarShip has to maneuver to try to counter two separate threats, not just one....

Nope. In order to “enjoy the ECM” of the GI, the fighters have to be either in the GI’s hex or one hex away; except in extremely rare circumstances, there is no need to maneuver to cover “both threats” separately.

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so the vaunted NAC 'double-tap' will not be so easy to direct....who do you shoot at? So...you want to shoot at the GI.

You forget that every arc has (generally speaking) more than one weapons bay. Yes, I want to shoot at the GI: I can pretty much put down the threat of that 42 cap point bay in one turn; it’s a heck of a lot harder to kill six squadrons of fighters, especially with capital bays.

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You don't get to shoot at the fighters at the same time with your big guns.

Depends on how may big guns you have in each of the 2-3 arcs you just brought to bear on the “GI System”, at any rate, the warship’s own AAA and its own “system buddies” can pour surprisingly heavy AAA fire into approaching fighter squadrons.

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What if you don't hit with both of of your big salvoes?

Then I keep rolling with my "not-quite-so-big salvos" and my "a-bit-smaller-than-those salvos" and my “ruin-your-day-big-AAA-salvos”.

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The GI hits you with multiple weapons and the fighters also hit you badly as well.....while the GI remains essentially fully combat capable.

Yes. The warship gets slammed with up to 66 capital points in one facing PLUS the fighters’ attacks, but the GI does not survive the exchange. You shoot the GI and kill it in one shot, I can pretty much guarantee that no other GI present is going to make another suicide run.

The fighters? Without the GI, they are in deep doo-doo… the ones that survived the attack run and didn’t get fatally thresholded by the return fire.

Quote
There is also the issue of probably multiple critical hit rolls against the WarShip.

Possibly multiple crit checks, probably just one or two; most fighter squadron “bays” have trouble thresholding warship armour and there is no guarantee of penetrating the armour in the first place. Even if crits do happen, there is no guarantee that they will affect combat capability; they could blowup some cargo, a docking collar,a couple of doors and leave the warship without a single functioning gravdeck.

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What if the GI team scores multiple critical hits during that first decisive firing run....something that is entirely possible with breached armor into the internal structure (even if not all SI is destroyed), capital missile hits and multiple threshold critical hit rolls? The WarShip has already lost significant combat capability....

Even if crits do happen, there is no guarantee that they will affect combat capability; they could blowup some cargo, a docking collar, a couple of doors and leave the warship without a single functioning gravdeck.

Also, the point is moot if the GI itself does not survive the exchange.

Quote
and there is also the possibility that boarding shuttles from the GI have successfully landed marines onboard as well.....automatic crew hit against the WarShip while they are trying to resist the boarders.

On a fully maneuvering intact warship? If the shuttles come in before the attack run, the warship can devote its entire arsenal to creating metallic confetti around its immediate vicinity. If they come in during the attack, they will have to perform extremely difficult docking maneuvers AFTER the attack which likely destroyed the GI is resolved.

Quote
Things do not look so rosy for the WarShip...and in the case of a smaller WarShip like a Vincent, he's dead after to first round....without any question at all.

IF the Vinnie (which is obsolete by any standard) is all by its lonesome and unable to avoid the battle; it also assumes that the SCC nose bay hits. The Vinnie has 19 points of capital armour on its broadsides and 40 points of capital SI, which means that it can take the 66-capital-point two-bay kiss, adding 12 capital points for three Killer Whales (you are not seriously going to suggest using a Kraken-T on a Vinnie, right?), for a grand total of 88 points of capital damage… Let’s see; 88 minus 19 for the external armour leaves 69, halved to 34.5, rounding up (why not? I’m feeling generous) to 35… leaving the Vinnie functional with 5 points of SI. Not quite dead yet. ;)

Of course, since your “GI System” pulled all the stops and launched 40 fighters against the (arguably… Zec I, I’m looking at you) weakest warship in canon, then  more power to you. Congratulations, you have proven that a custom super PWS AND forty ASF can take out a pipsqueak obsolete canon warship.


Aerohead

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #167 on: 13 March 2011, 23:09:31 »
Fantastic write up!  Wish I had been there to see it!   [applause]

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #168 on: 13 March 2011, 23:25:41 »
Bravo! [applause]
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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #169 on: 13 March 2011, 23:38:42 »
 The Agamemnons redeeming traits are often forgotten, good anti-fighter weapons, good point defense and a good number of hardpoints. I forget these myself. Its speed is also theoretically useful for avoiding fights. Good job [applause] you prevailed, and your write up was interesting to read.

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #170 on: 13 March 2011, 23:43:34 »
Outstanding, I honestly could not imagine running a game w/ that many elements in it.   [rockon]
Ugh, the time it must have took.   :'(

If this totally lopsided fight was not enough to answer the original OP's question then I don't know what is.   ;)
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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #171 on: 13 March 2011, 23:46:15 »
Great write-up, read it twice already.

Nice trick with breaking up the heavy fighters to fight the lighter squadrons, I'll have to remember that one. Must have been crazy keeping track of all those elements.


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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #172 on: 13 March 2011, 23:48:57 »
That's a game I could only have even thought of doing if I had MegaAero.
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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #173 on: 14 March 2011, 00:53:28 »
Pretty much confirms my own results.

The threat of a PWS encourages WarShips to switch targets to the much closer PWS rather than continue the WS fight.
Seeding squadrons with DS significantly increases their capability.
Seeding squadrons with small craft, doesn't in a large craft fight.
ASF basically neutralise eachother, unless one side has a notable force multiplying advantage like ECM.
If a WS of any real size opens up on DS, DS die. quickly.

One thing I am curious about is stopping high end assault DS without WS support. My own experience shows jamming a lighter DS in its face as a blocker followed by heavy ASF support generally ruins their day. Was there a chance to explore that?

On a personal note, its nice to see the Aerospace Cabal still rock. 5 years ago the result would have been very different.
And is good to see the design fundamentals behind the Aesir family have held strong in the face of the proliferation of direct fire sub capital weapons.


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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #174 on: 14 March 2011, 01:07:24 »
As a side question from "do PWSs pwnzor teh Warships," has anyone tried building Dropships to fix the weaknesses of old Warships? Specifically mounting the AMS, anti-fighter, and EW equipment the Star League models lack? If you could get a good support ship it could turn an "obsolete" design into the most modern ship in the fleet!
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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #175 on: 14 March 2011, 01:41:11 »
The DropShips' fire control arcs and low max tonnage works against them. No matter how good you make a DropShip, you can build a custom WarShip that will be better, purely because of the additional tonnage a WarShip can bring. It is, for example, incredibly easy to build 2.5MT battle ships that have the capital firepower to torch entire squadrons of PWS each turn, let alone over the course of a battle.
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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #176 on: 14 March 2011, 02:48:35 »
As a side question from "do PWSs pwnzor teh Warships," has anyone tried building Dropships to fix the weaknesses of old Warships? Specifically mounting the AMS, anti-fighter, and EW equipment the Star League models lack? If you could get a good support ship it could turn an "obsolete" design into the most modern ship in the fleet!

yes, you can build DropShips with the AMS and "AAA" that "Old" ships lack. And some are even exist in TROs.

It should be noted that the only thing the Star Leage ships lack is AMS. Their ECM and anti fighter is as good or better than anything else anyone else has since built.

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #177 on: 14 March 2011, 03:13:46 »
Which suggests that they worked as part of a fleet formation, where fighters or DropShips screened them, using their point defense to stop incoming enemy fighters and missiles, while the WarShip focused on killing enemy large craft.

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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #178 on: 14 March 2011, 03:38:08 »
Essentially what I was thinking, but as I lack some of the TROs that cover such details I can't speak for cannon craft. Mostly the idea was for a fleet doctrine of Dropships as the defensive platforms for a battlegroup and Warships as the hammer to smash the enemy. Seems I've been playing to many RTS games lately. :D
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Re: Have PWS's rendered lighter warships obsolescent?
« Reply #179 on: 14 March 2011, 04:34:36 »
B)   Under absolutely no circumstances should the GI close to anywhere near capital long range with anything that can potentially kill it with one shot.
If a WS of any real size opens up on DS, DS die. quickly.

I have a question regarding these points:
Is it even possible to build a PWS that can survive multiple hits from bigger WS capital bays (having at least 100 cap armor per location might help) or do the rules and weight limitations just make that impossible?
As long as PWS can barely survive a single 50+ hit to any facing their only chance to kill a true WS seems to be just massive outnumbering the opponent (aka having so many units that the WS cannot kill them fast enough).

 

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