Second line mechs for second line elementals

[Wolflord]

Apologies if this one has been done before and if it has can someone point me at the thread.

Why in Kerensky's name are there no second line omnis for the second line elementals to ride on.

Build em out of standard components with only clan tech double heat sinks and weapons cheap as chips for the second line / garrison units the elementals get a ride and in a real emergency the front line units can use them while waiting for factory fresh first line replacements?????

[Pa Weasley]

Because those geezers and greenies are not worthy of serving in front line units. Assignment to an OmniMech is an honor reserved only for front line forces. If second line Elementals want the luxury of transport they will clamber into a Svantovit (or Tyr, Indra (BA), Maxim (Clan), Anhur, Anhur (BA), Badger, etc.) and they will like it. What are you, some kind of Society sympathizer attempting to upend the Way of the Clans? Do you need a visit from the Watch?

Honestly, it has more to idea being an affront to Clan sensibilities that anything. Toss in limited resources and front line units not having enough OmniMechs to go around in the current era and you at least have the fluff reasons. All that said, I would love to see the Clans explore more IS battle armor tech like mag clamps.  }:)

[Wolflord]

Because those geezers and greenies are not worthy of serving in front line units. Assignment to an OmniMech is an honor reserved only for front line forces. If second line Elementals want the luxury of transport they will clamber into a Svantovit (or Tyr, Indra (BA), Maxim (Clan), Anhur, Anhur (BA), Badger, etc.) and they will like it. What are you, some kind of Society sympathizer attempting to upend the Way of the Clans? Do you need a visit from the Watch?

Honestly, it has more to idea being an affront to Clan sensibilities that anything. Toss in limited resources and front line units not having enough OmniMechs to go around in the current era and you at least have the fluff reasons. All that said, I would love to see the Clans explore more IS battle armor tech like mag clamps.  }:)

I must have been reading books like that naughty aiden pryde!  ;D

[Southern Coyote]

But he's right.  If second line Elementals want a ride to battlefield, they need an infantry transport of some kind.  The only other thing they can hope for is maybe their commander, if he happens to be a mechwarrior, was skilled enough or warranted enough respect to have an omni assigned to him even in garrison duty. 

[Dragon Cat]

I'd have said magnetic clamps is a good idea

[cold1]

Hope you're a Coyote 8)

[Wolflord]

So the in universe explanation appears to be we are clanners and we will willfully have a less capable military because we need to shame someone.

Aaarrrrggghhh! Why am I a clanner? We are nutz :o
*goes back to reading aiden's secret stash of books*

[Ian Sharpe]

The stylized nature of Clan Trials just means that when second line units are involved, they will have less Toad support.  Not all second line formations are created equal, either, as some will have not trivial numbers of OmniMechs.  However...I like the Nova as a second line Omni.  Not caring about numbers in universe or users, the Crossbow, Battle Cobra, and Stooping Hawk all work well for the role.  I see the Omnis assigned to a second line Cluster as being old, even more repaired than typical, or unlucky/lemon machines. 

[jimdigris]

It really doesn't make sense.  All you have to do is solder some spare handholds onto the mech.  It's one of the least expensive parts of the machine.

[Southern Coyote]

Yeah, but it's the mindset of the Clans.  If you're in a second-line unit, then you probably don't deserve to be in the fight to begin with; and if the Clan thought more highly of the target you're defending, then it would be defended with front-line troops.  So, if you're going to fight, you're going to have to find your own way into the fight.  Otherwise, you're probably better off dead and salvaged for parts. 

Aaarrrrggghhh! Why am I a clanner? We are nutz :o

Yep.  Clanners are bat-crap crazy.  That's why I like them.

[ShadowRaven]

~looks over at Clan Snow Raven~

Second line units, check
averaging about 50% or better omni, check
thinking other clans are crazy, double check

 :D

[Wolflord]

*looks up from aiden's stash of books, confirms preference for snow ravens starts scribbling notes on how to get wolf character to the alliance along with wookie ex ghost bear sidekick*

[Pa Weasley]

Yep.  Clanners are bat-crap crazy.  That's why I like them.

Psh, some of 'em are bat-crap crazy and believe in the power of mystic visions. Double win.  ;)

[MidfieldMarauder]

It really doesn't make sense.  All you have to do is solder some spare handholds onto the mech.  It's one of the least expensive parts of the machine.

I'm pretty sure it's more complicated than that. I remember (have to look it up later today) reading somewhere that OmniMechs have a weight distribution and balance system that isn't found in regular BattleMechs. This is what allows for pod technology as well as the Elementals to hitch a ride.

It's not that second line BattleMechs don't want to carry Elementals into battle. They just can't.

[Wolflord]

I'm pretty sure it's more complicated than that. I remember (have to look it up later today) reading somewhere that OmniMechs have a weight distribution and balance system that isn't found in regular BattleMechs. This is what allows for pod technology as well as the Elementals to hitch a ride.

It's not that second line BattleMechs don't want to carry Elementals into battle. They just can't.

IIRC the omnis have data and power ports for the elementals to plug into as well as hand holds.

But with sufficiently determined elementals and a decent mechwarrior in the battlemech I am struggling to see why the elementals couldn't grab hold and cling on for dear life apart from the rule book says so.

[Pa Weasley]

But with sufficiently determined elementals and a decent mechwarrior in the battlemech I am struggling to see why the elementals couldn't grab hold and cling on for dear life apart from the rule book says so.

Essentially that's the big one right there.

If nothing else, the fact that Omnis can transport battle armor is really the only difference between OmniMechs and BattleMechs in a one off battle. However, if you want to make a rule for your group that allows a particularly plucky and determined star of Elementals to desperately cling to a standard BattleMech have at it. Whatever works for your game.

[martian]

I'm pretty sure it's more complicated than that. I remember (have to look it up later today) reading somewhere that OmniMechs have a weight distribution and balance system that isn't found in regular BattleMechs. This is what allows for pod technology as well as the Elementals to hitch a ride.

It's not that second line BattleMechs don't want to carry Elementals into battle. They just can't.

And that is what simply doesn't make sense. We were told: Elementals can't ride anything else than an OmniMech because only its computer is programmed to handle the additional weight of Elementals holding on those handholds.

And then Magnetic Clamps (on Fa Shih BA?) came. With these clamps BA can ride on any 'Mech that see. If they ask pilot of ancient "Hot Hammer" and he allows them to do so, they can ride even this old BattleMech. No handholds needed, no problems with additional weight.

So it's obvious that the weight distribution was not the problem we were told it was...

[ShadowRaven]

make them ride in slings like so much cargo

[Wolflord]

make them ride in slings like so much cargo

They left their Twinky wrappers in the heat sink vents again didn't they  ;D

Good idea though, something like the scramble netting sometimes deployed on ships?

[Pa Weasley]

Hmmmm, kind of like the abandoned infantry pod concept for the Fire Moth ....

[Wolflord]

Hmmmm, kind of like the abandoned infantry pod concept for the Fire Moth ....

How far could a garrison units Atlas IIC throw the elementals?  O:-)

And is it possible to head cap a mech with a thrown elemental?  :o

[Pa Weasley]

I fear we're inching towards of discussion on creative battle armor deployment concepts like on the BAotW: Grenadier thread.  ;D

[glitterboy2098]

it's also worth pointing out that 2nd line units do have omnimechs in them. they just tend to have the older builds that have seen service for decades already, and are major hanger queens as a result.

though to be honest, i don't see why a standard mech couldn't be refitted with elemental hookups. maybe make them a special system that has to be retrofitted in? (one crit per torso location perhaps?)

[Wolflord]

I fear we're inching towards of discussion on creative battle armor deployment concepts like on the BAotW: Grenadier thread.  ;D

The elementals were more than a little surprised when they saw the trebuchet they were going to deploy from kind of thing?  :))

[Jellico]

And that is what simply doesn't make sense. We were told: Elementals can't ride anything else than an OmniMech because only its computer is programmed to handle the additional weight of Elementals holding on those handholds.

And then Magnetic Clamps (on Fa Shih BA?) came. With these clamps BA can ride on any 'Mech that see. If they ask pilot of ancient "Hot Hammer" and he allows them to do so, they can ride even this old BattleMech. No handholds needed, no problems with additional weight.

So it's obvious that the weight distribution was not the problem we were told it was...

Magnetic Clamps cause a 1 MP reduction in cruising speed. p227 TW.
Likewise when swarming rather than being carried BA tends to fall off.

The point being, non omnis need to be careful when carrying mechanized BA.
Omnis have a specialist gyro that can handle the unusual weight distributions of omnipods and BA.

Now one of the concepts that needs to be understood is just how rare OmniMechs are. They simply never made that many. Natural attrition was such that it took long periods of relative peace for omnis to enter the second line ranks.
Additionally we first saw second line units in the aftermath of Tukayyid. It is reasonable to assume that before then all Clans had a percentage of omnis in second line units closer to the Coyotes. Conversely, consider Clan Ghost Bear in 3060, with a huge percentage of Star League tech having had to suffer a historic late start in omnimechs, the losses of Tukayyid, and a decade spent shutting down factories for relocation.

Next we need to consider just what second line units do. Any combat in the Homeworlds requires bidding. Given by their superior pilots front line units can bid lower than secondline units, frontline units get most of the combat. Secondline units are rarely going to be used offensively. That means no great need to transport infantry as they mostly get to wait for attackers to come to them. Finally, strategic movement on world is by DropShip. It is easy to be moved to the chosen battlefield, then great speed is not really required.

[glitterboy2098]

whats interesting though is that the novel Wolf Pack has the Dragoons rigging their standard battlemechs (IIRC a thunderbolt is mentioned specifically) with handholds so that Elementals (such as Elson Novacat) can be carried into battle.

[ShadowRaven]

Which means it can be done. I am fairly certain there are even rules for it. Maxtech maybe?

[glitterboy2098]

in the novel, it's just handholds welded to the armor. and they don't say how well the mechs handled with elementals on them.

and i don't think there have ever been rules for it. don't remember any from maxtech anyway.

[ScarletDevil]

in the novel, it's just handholds welded to the armor. and they don't say how well the mechs handled with elementals on them.

I'd imagine it would play hell on the gyro since it's a shifting load the mech isn't designed for. Maybe it would be more of an eventual maintenance issue?

[StCptMara]

you know what would be cool? A gun that the 'mech loads elementals into and shoots them at other 'mechs!