Author Topic: Tell me about: The Sagittaire  (Read 5350 times)

iampoch

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #30 on: 15 September 2013, 11:10:20 »
Is the original Templar out of production, though? Because if it is, then he can opt for the B variant of Templar III. It looks pretty nasty up close with the small x-pulses and two melee weapons.

Wrangler

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #31 on: 15 September 2013, 12:25:13 »
Is the original Templar out of production, though? Because if it is, then he can opt for the B variant of Templar III. It looks pretty nasty up close with the small x-pulses and two melee weapons.
Yep, the original Templar is dust in the radioactive winds of Talon.

Don't know if the Sag is still in production on Robinson, which would mean the Combine just got themselves this big honging lite brite to light up their former owners.
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Trailblazer

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #32 on: 16 September 2013, 16:13:02 »
The Sag is probably the IS Mech that took the biggest hit with TW.
Pretty much the bigger and nastier brother of the Penetrator, it was custom tailored for pulse+TC, and could remove a Heavies torso with a single aimed salvo at close range, balanced by its "speed", as those Combine Mechwarriors foolish enough to duel them learned (fluff section).
Today its just another 95ton Assault with a range problem, scattering its average damage all over the target.

You gotta admit, though, it was worth it to nerf the Warhawk C...

Taurevanime

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #33 on: 16 September 2013, 23:12:02 »
And as much as I love autocannons. It made the RAC/5 and the UAC/20 just too darn nasty.

I have lamented that there isn't anything neat you could do with called shots with a RAC anymore. I have thought about the idea of making it act like streak missiles in that all hit, but random locations. But I do not know if the math on that makes it too powerful or not. Someone smarter than me would have to take a look.

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #34 on: 16 September 2013, 23:48:31 »
And as much as I love autocannons. It made the RAC/5 and the UAC/20 just too darn nasty.

I have lamented that there isn't anything neat you could do with called shots with a RAC anymore. I have thought about the idea of making it act like streak missiles in that all hit, but random locations. But I do not know if the math on that makes it too powerful or not. Someone smarter than me would have to take a look.

If you mean a TC-equipped R-A/C hitting all the time with all of its burst? Way too good.

If you mean taking the +3 to-hit modifier in exchange for hitting with everything in the burst? It would be OK with regular pilots and if C3 wasn't in use, but change that paradigm too much (eg: elite pilot in a RACturion with a friendly inside 5 hexes of the enemy) and it gets to be a bit much.

This is actually why TCs got nerfed; when combined with Inner Sphere technology they get to be a little too effective.
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Taurevanime

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #35 on: 17 September 2013, 00:27:01 »
Yeah it's mainly that additional C3 combo, didn't even occur to me at first. My Lord is it going to be bunchy in the future with mixed tech 'mechs sporting IS equipment and Clan weapons. Clan ER-PPC and C3? Oh God the pain! Or with the Clan ER-Large Laser.

Trailblazer

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #36 on: 17 September 2013, 01:01:41 »
Yeah it's mainly that additional C3 combo, didn't even occur to me at first. My Lord is it going to be bunchy in the future with mixed tech 'mechs sporting IS equipment and Clan weapons. Clan ER-PPC and C3? Oh God the pain! Or with the Clan ER-Large Laser.

You can do that combo with IS OmniMechs and Clantech salvage in 3060.

Sabelkatten

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #37 on: 18 September 2013, 04:49:50 »
[rant]
You gotta admit, though, it was worth it to nerf the Warhawk C...
What nerf? Sure, losing the ability to target locations made it marginally less dangerous, but the cLPL is still the (generallY) most powerful weapon in the game.

And as much as I love autocannons. It made the RAC/5 and the UAC/20 just too darn nasty.

I have lamented that there isn't anything neat you could do with called shots with a RAC anymore. I have thought about the idea of making it act like streak missiles in that all hit, but random locations. But I do not know if the math on that makes it too powerful or not. Someone smarter than me would have to take a look.
I still make called shots with RACs. I just call them "quad IS ERMLs" nowdays... #P
[/rant]
Now back to the scheduled program!

Personally I like the idea behind the Sag, but I would have liked it a lot better with a SFE and 10 tons lighter. It's really expensive for what it brings.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #38 on: 18 September 2013, 06:23:02 »
Everything is kinda expensive with an XL, and it's really about how many good pilots and how much dropship space you have.
But then, I agree with you.
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Taurevanime

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #39 on: 18 September 2013, 12:36:32 »
Considering the price of things has been there mainly for fluff reasons and is entirely arbitrary. Having no relation between how good something is or how rare or hard to produce (There are so many XL engines produced, yet cost remains the same for example). It is something I tend to ignore. The Powers That Be seem to do so as well.

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #40 on: 19 September 2013, 09:30:57 »
My first impression of the Sagittaire wasn't a great one. We were playing the first Isle of the Blessed of the Scenario, and some dumbass jumped his Sagittaire on top of a hill without any support and proceeded to get the class portrait from Team WoB. It was gone in a turn.

As an aside, I've always pondered the idea of a variant that swapped out the ER PPC and Large Pulse lasers on the R for a Trio of Standard PPCs, using the justification that the Chaos of the Jihad fubared logistics and the makers of the design had to make do with the stockpiled weapons on hand.
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #41 on: 19 September 2013, 15:13:05 »
Considering the price of things has been there mainly for fluff reasons and is entirely arbitrary. Having no relation between how good something is or how rare or hard to produce (There are so many XL engines produced, yet cost remains the same for example). It is something I tend to ignore. The Powers That Be seem to do so as well.
I mostly ignore the stated C-bill costs as well, but it is stated in so many places that XLFEs are more expensive that I regard it as simply "expensive", without trying to put a number to it. But that's just the first part - tonnage is a big factor in price too, and dropping the Sag to 85 tons wouldn't lose much capability.

Diablo48

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #42 on: 19 September 2013, 16:47:17 »
My first impression of the Sagittaire wasn't a great one. We were playing the first Isle of the Blessed of the Scenario, and some dumbass jumped his Sagittaire on top of a hill without any support and proceeded to get the class portrait from Team WoB. It was gone in a turn.

Was his name Leroy Jenkins? ;)

I mostly ignore the stated C-bill costs as well, but it is stated in so many places that XLFEs are more expensive that I regard it as simply "expensive", without trying to put a number to it. But that's just the first part - tonnage is a big factor in price too, and dropping the Sag to 85 tons wouldn't lose much capability.

At least in the IS.  With the way the Clans tend to build things, I have to wonder if their XLE production is cheaper and more streamlined than their SFE production.


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UnLimiTeD

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #43 on: 19 September 2013, 18:11:10 »
They probably pay more for the materials, but yeh, the actual manufacturing won't be more expensive than an SFE.
With the way sidetorso-damage leaves the mech salvageable, it might even be favourable for logistics.
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #44 on: 20 September 2013, 08:17:31 »
Considering the fluff I'd say it's the other way around. XL engines doesn't use that much more expensive materials, they're much more expensive to produce. Which means the clans - who canonically has had problems with material resources - should go for the XLs as much as possible. SFEs still makes sense for "panic" units, being cheaper and thus probably quicker to produce.

But even with a much higher purchase cost XL engines can save you quite a bit in operating costs. Transport costs, obviously. Maintenance costs have (at times) been based on unit weight as well. And so on.

Berzerker

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #45 on: 21 September 2013, 00:49:41 »
I've found the Sagittaire is only as good as it's support. I've used to nasty effect with it when in the city/mountains/canyons/forest/jungle paired with other jumpers like a pair of Black hawk KU Primes or a Berserker, especially using the Sagittaire to "push" my opponent into the Berserker or visa versa.

In larger, more open warfare I've paired it with a Thunderhawk/Devastator/Nightstar/Alacorn/Dragon Fire or similar long range face smashers and had a lot of luck with it, but you have to be able to suppress fire to get it in close or use it to push the enemy out of cover into the afore mentioned fire support. Generally, you'd want to use it just like a Berserker, King Crab (ac20 version), or other close range facemelter. I've found even the nastiest close range killers such as the Berserker or Burrock(sp), there is nothing that can go toe to toe with it, win, and still be combat effective.

I have had some problems with it facing down C3 networks and clan groups for obvious reasons.
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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #46 on: 21 September 2013, 01:02:37 »
Any thoughts on the Sagittaire?
As long as you treat it like an overgrown Hunchback then its a beast.
Just don't leave it alone on open plains w/o ranged support.
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Diablo48

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #47 on: 21 September 2013, 01:49:49 »
As long as you treat it like an overgrown Hunchback then its a beast.
Just don't leave it alone on open plains w/o ranged support.

That or the old Atlas, although the TC'd ERPPC most definitely makes it less helpless at range than either of those designs.


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Getz

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #48 on: 21 September 2013, 09:41:41 »
Well, the mini arrived in the post yesterday an looks super-sweet.  Now to sort out a game and take the beast out for a trial run...   >:D

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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #49 on: 22 October 2013, 12:37:14 »
Well, let's necro this thing and give some thoughts. Because I'm like that. Nyah.

Here's the thing. You're 95 tons. You move 3/5- yes, you have jump jets, and that's a huge help in some situations, but still it's safe to say you're not going anywhere in a hurry. Hey, it's an assault Mech, that's not the idea to them, right?

Well, let's review the guns and- oh. In 3067, a brand new, extremely expensive, top-of-the-line assault Mech has one weapon reaching past nine hexes? At SEVEN hexes only three can engage? Granted, the TC means you're hitting more often with that PPC, and the closer you get those pulses get madder and madder, but... man, that's ugly times. In an era where heavies are regularly moving 5/8 and mediums are hitting 7/11, moving 3/5 is acceptable only if you can engage fast targets at range. Otherwise they'll never come near you- why would they? Think of a Falconer- it gives up twenty tons to this monster, but if it stays ten hexes away it can trade the PPC and Gauss for the Sagittaire's single PPC all day long (or until the ammo runs out on the Gauss anyway). And it's fast enough to almost always find a way to stay that needed distance- even if he loses initiative, he can simply back up as far as the Sag can run forward.

Does that make this a BAD Mech? No. No, that close range firepower is legendary for a reason. Not a fan of the rear lasers, particularly when the arms already can flip, but at close range if you catch something there... madness. Shut the PPC off, light up the laser batteries, and your target will melt into a little grey puddle. It's breathtaking- and if your opponent knows what he's doing, he'll do everything in his power to keep it from happening. In that way, using one is like using the old Hunchback- it can't really do much past nine hexes, but no one wants to risk stepping into the bubble- which makes it a great area-denial tool, if nothing else.

As an urban combatant this Mech shines. Jump over low buildings, let loose with your laser spam, if anyone sneaks up behind you can tell them where to stick it with the rear lasers, and if things get hairy you leap away again. Like an Urbanmech times three, if you will- which is fine, if that's what you wanted it to be, but using one in a typical assault role like you would with a Devastator or Atlas is going to result in a really crappy day.

Now, we know the Davvies are building Clan-tech lasers in the Dark Age, which brings up all kinds of fun options of course (Apollo's Law doesn't really apply here- this is WORTH upgrading to Clan pulses). Extending the range of the pulse lasers makes for a machine that is everything munchkin players have wanted for ages- you even lose a couple of tons of weight from the larges, in case you needed some weight back for something. But, being as that's tricked out and boring, I personally would rather not see it happen.

One of the DA novels featured a merc-owned Sagittaire (Wolf Hunters, I think) that had standard lasers in place of the pulses. Sounds like a downgrade, but... lower heat, better range, and the weight of those pulse lasers means there's a LOT of saved tonnage in there for other gear. We've never seen this statted out, but playing around in my head... by replacing the large and medium pulse lasers with standard models you save nine tons (plus I think the computer is removed in addition, if I recall), which means you can do a LOT of fun things here.

As an aside, I've always pondered the idea of a variant that swapped out the ER PPC and Large Pulse lasers on the R for a Trio of Standard PPCs, using the justification that the Chaos of the Jihad fubared logistics and the makers of the design had to make do with the stockpiled weapons on hand.

And then there's this, which I wholeheartedly approve of- like ramming a Black Hawk KU and an Awesome together, then turning it loose on victims. This is beautiful thinking and should immediately be a field refit to every Sag out there, regardless of the situation.

As stock, however, this is an urban warfare machine that has serious drawbacks, making the incredibly powerful and accurate weaponry just not worth the immense cost of owning one. Mod it, or sell it- if you're going to use it, be very careful in how you do so- or your opponent will likely get a chance to salvage it and show you how to use it from the other direction next game...
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Diablo48

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #50 on: 22 October 2013, 12:51:32 »
As stock, however, this is an urban warfare machine that has serious drawbacks, making the incredibly powerful and accurate weaponry just not worth the immense cost of owning one. Mod it, or sell it- if you're going to use it, be very careful in how you do so- or your opponent will likely get a chance to salvage it and show you how to use it from the other direction next game...

I would have to disagree with you on this one.  The stock configuration is a devastating specialist so concentrating them in specialized units while other designs do other jobs is the way to go.  Can you imagine trying to fight in a city when the other guy has a company of these on hand?  Brutal.


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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #51 on: 22 October 2013, 12:59:44 »
I would have to disagree with you on this one.  The stock configuration is a devastating specialist so concentrating them in specialized units while other designs do other jobs is the way to go.  Can you imagine trying to fight in a city when the other guy has a company of these on hand?  Brutal.

Yeah, I kind of mentioned how good this thing would be for urban combat... My issue is that once the fighting heads out of town, this thing becomes almost neutered- which is kind of a problem, for the kind of money you'd spend on ONE of these. A company? Ye gods, you've got a huge wallet and no sense in using it if you have a whole company of Sags.
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Diablo48

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #52 on: 22 October 2013, 13:26:53 »
Yeah, I kind of mentioned how good this thing would be for urban combat... My issue is that once the fighting heads out of town, this thing becomes almost neutered- which is kind of a problem, for the kind of money you'd spend on ONE of these. A company? Ye gods, you've got a huge wallet and no sense in using it if you have a whole company of Sags.

That is sort of the point of a specialist formation.  The do one thing really well and leave other work to more generalized units.  You keep them in the back while your regular units advance to the edge of the city, then move them up to take point for the final push into the city center which is probably your objective.  Going the other way, you let the specialists do the heavy lifting until you hit the edge of the city and then move up other units to progress out and keep the specialists back to either hold the city or bulk up the headquarters unit.

This would either be a small element in a much larger house formation which concentrates the specialists so they are not slowing other formations down in the open, or a dedicated mercenary unit which only contracts in their specialty and has a clause about refusing to work outside of it.


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Phobos

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #53 on: 22 October 2013, 13:39:03 »
So, has anyone taken a closer look at the new Sagittaire in 3145 NTNU?

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #54 on: 22 October 2013, 16:48:47 »
To each their own- to me, if I'm going to spend the kind of money a Sag costs, I feel like I should get my money's worth out of it- having it stay out of the fighting until I find a situation it won't get its ass kicked in seems like I'm getting ripped off. Redshirt's variant, I could see actually being useful in multiple situations. As stock, it's a niche unit in the same vein as the Urbanmech itself- fine in its role, near-helpless outside of it. But at least Urbies have the grace to be CHEAP and limited!

I'm not saying this thing sucks- far from it... it just needs a whole lot of things to go its way to keep from being left behind- or picked apart in most battles. And while that's nothing new- the same, in a different vein, could be said of many designs in the past like the Archer even- but here it's just SO pricey for what it does for you... I don't know, I just don't find it all that appealing. Your mileage may, and is welcome to, vary.
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iampoch

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #55 on: 23 October 2013, 05:59:53 »
So, has anyone taken a closer look at the new Sagittaire in 3145 NTNU?

As a platform for RE lasers and C3B, it looks good. Frankly, though, I still don't see the merit of either tech. Both are too heavy and bulky for what they do. C3B Slave is especially bad. For the same tonnage, you can fit in a C3 Slave and Angel ECM.

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #56 on: 23 October 2013, 07:16:18 »
I finally got to use the Sag alongside the rest of my 3/5/3 assault lance in 9000 bv game a few weeks ago.  I was up against no less than seven IS mech of varying weights and while I can't claim it was the MVP (that particular honour has to go to the MAD-4S that managed to land every shot with it's HGR on target and head-chopped a BLR-4S in the process) it performed admirably as the bodyguard for the rest of the lance - ripping a Spider that was trying to back stab my Highlander to bits and wiping out a Hunchback in a single volley of fire - and the rest of the time the TC assisted ER PPC managed to hit most turns.  It did die in the end - three mechs concentrating fire on it after it took point and managing to keep hitting the right torso will do that to any XL engined mech - and I can't honestly claim it made it's Bv back, but it was an important part of preventing my opponent closing successfully and allowed the rest of the lance to do their thing effectively at medium ranges.

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #57 on: 24 October 2013, 04:14:58 »
Take the Sagittaire for the fluff. I paraphrase:"...the horror of seeing a 95 ton 'mech rise up on jump jets."
I can actually imagine something worse. SuperHeavy VEHICLES are NOT EXCLUDED from mounting Jump Jets and if seeing a 95-ton 'Mech is bad, how bad is seeing a 200-ton tank do the same thing? And given the way things work if it was pulling a trailer at the time the trailer would come with it

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #58 on: 24 October 2013, 07:00:41 »
Does the trailer slow it down?
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Re: Tell me about: The Sagittaire
« Reply #59 on: 24 October 2013, 10:07:29 »
As a platform for RE lasers and C3B, it looks good. Frankly, though, I still don't see the merit of either tech. Both are too heavy and bulky for what they do.

Actually considering that the Sag is produced in the Draconis March and considering that the Draconis Combine has suddenly started producing a preponderance of 'Mechs equipped with Hardened Armor, I can see a very valid use for Re-engineered Lasers on this variant...

(HINT: If I recall the rules correctly, Re-Engineered Lasers do full damage against Hardened Armor...)
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