Author Topic: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?  (Read 45089 times)

Taharqa

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #30 on: 25 March 2011, 16:54:11 »
Shows how much one's mileage can vary. I picked up the omnibus edition a while back and it just didn't do much for me. May have to do with Thurston ultimately never managing to convince me that Aidan's in-universe detractors, while harsh, were anything but right all along...

They were, initially. Aidan failed because he was overconfident. He learned, he grew, he got better, and he got another chance. Its not the most brilliant piece of literature, but it is a solid example of what people call "character development" which you are unlikely to find in a Stackpole novel.
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Davout73

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #31 on: 25 March 2011, 17:07:41 »
Stackpole could be worse, Weber comes to mind..
« Last Edit: 25 March 2011, 17:09:15 by Davout73 »
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #32 on: 25 March 2011, 17:35:31 »
They were, initially. Aidan failed because he was overconfident. He learned, he grew, he got better, and he got another chance. Its not the most brilliant piece of literature, but it is a solid example of what people call "character development" which you are unlikely to find in a Stackpole novel.

To be quite frank, I don't remember seeing much of it in the Jade Phoenix books either -- or at least not in Aidan himself, though I'll grant that the fiat certainly seemed to be strong in him. I'll re-read them one of these days to check, I suppose.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #33 on: 25 March 2011, 18:56:16 »
But I can't really be the only one who notices this, can I?

No. I'm not much of a fan. I get why he's popular in the novel line, but he's not quite the style I'd prefer. It doesn't make his stuff awful, just not something I care for that much. I also wasn't a big fan of some of his online communications, or the single interaction I had with him in person.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #34 on: 25 March 2011, 21:17:26 »
The Warrior trilogy treated the 4th SW much much better than "Hulk Smash"

When did he ever do that? My first hint that the heroes aren't in any real danger is when no combatants on the other side even get names.


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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #35 on: 25 March 2011, 21:50:04 »
Stackpole could be worse, Weber comes to mind..

Hey just because a guy named Robes Pierre starting a revolution on a planet called Nouevau Paris goes beyond forshadowing into the realm of "well duh"...
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #36 on: 25 March 2011, 21:59:48 »
I know I'm going to get flamed... oh well.

If there was no Stackpole, there very well might be no Battletech today.  There, I said it.

Stackpole's novels pushed this universe forward.  Whenever FASA needed someone to write the story, they went to Stackpole. 

Most of the other novels were one off stories, he made the universe come alive.
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #37 on: 26 March 2011, 01:46:30 »
Though this is true, time has shown that Stackpole was not, and since he is still a semi-active writer continues not to be, irreplacable.  Yes, he was called on to do the core line of novels that did drive the main story of the universe, from the Warrior books on.  But, most of Twilight of the Clans was done by others, with Stackpole's offerings being some of the weaker offerings from that series to my mind (this coming from someone who genuinely enjoyed most of his earlier works, in both BT and Star Wars).  Loren L Coleman was called on to finish the core line, after having done excelent work previously, and 'wrap up' the pre-Jihad era, in effect replacing Stackpole.

That is my key problem with Stackpole's little tirade.  "If everyone could do what I do..."  The fact is that not everyone has to be able to do it, but just one or two people, and its not hard to tell who they are and are not.  I can't throw a very good fast ball, but I can see which pitchers are the good ones and which are not.  I can tell that some authors bring more to the table than Stackpole does.  I've seen several people from these boards who've broken through to join the writing staff either by getting their stories published on Battle Corps or else in some other way, so there's every indication that while quality professional writing is a marketable skill, its not one that Stackpole or any other author has a monopoly on.

Sure, I agree on the third point.  We know BT is centeraly driven, that there is a line devolper who coordanates things and many authors working together, so it would be dificult for someone to fully reason out just what any given next move in the storyline should be (though the DA's existance makes it a bit easier).  But, that very fact undermines his other point, which is that the ideas are his, and that he's the one who makes the universe sing.  The universe sings not because of a few books by one author, but because of the cooperative efforts of many people, doing writing, devolpment, fact checking, and many other things to bring a large spectrum of products to fruition, including a large and veried amount of fiction.  Its not just about Stackpole, or Coleman, or anyone else.  So the notion that we'd be picking up on 'his' hints or 'his' storylines is just sillyness, unless he had begun a series of his own in a universe of his own, which despite his claims that he has such abilities, I'm not aware that he has done.

Now, like I said, I did really enjoy Warrior and BoK and even X Wing.  But, I enjoyed the words, that does not mean I have to enjoy the man who wrote them.
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #38 on: 27 March 2011, 13:45:22 »
That's not even remotely what he said.

I read that a long  long time ago.  What he said did come across as a little bit arrogant.   But the point he was tring to get across was that if we were guessing were the universe was going it was because we were catching on to the little hints that he and other wrighters were leaveing. He was right with what he said.  However as heated as things were at the time it would have been better had he said nothing.

As to the complaints about him not putting his all in because he was being paid to do a job.    I am not saying there is some truth to that.  But I will say this it would have been much easier to give your all had FASA been paying him.   Unfortantly he stoped doing BT for a long time because he wasn't getting paid.   So they were lucky to get anything out of him.   That is not a knock on his character.   I don't think anyone does there best work not knowing if they will ever get paid.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #39 on: 27 March 2011, 13:58:00 »
Let me add this at the time the fan base was rapid when he made those remarks.   It would have been better had he left his mouth shout.    Not because he wasn't justified in saying something.   I would have heck I was one of the rapid mad fans.  But the professionals like stackpole should have kept there mouth shut because they are the pros and the fans are the consumers.  Making remarks that have a chance of agervating consumers is never a good ideal.   That said I still enjoyed his novels.    For the time they were pretty good.    Over time I think our expectations grow.  Just like we expect more from a source book than we did a decade ago.   

All and all I am willing to at this point give him a pass on remarks made a decade ago.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #40 on: 28 March 2011, 09:23:21 »
If there was no Stackpole, there very well might be no Battletech today.  There, I said it.

I see your point, but technically we don't actually know that. Somebody else would have been called up to write the core line. Maybe they would have been better, maybe they would have been worse. All in all, I will take the devil we know.

My biggest gripe with Stackpole is not his two-dimensional characters. Its the lack of flavor he provides for the background setting. With Stackpole you get well-written prose and a tight plot involving fairly static characters, but you never get much of a feel for the larger universe. The most information I think I ever got was that people near the Capellan border eat at Chinese-American restaurants. All in all, Stackpole tends to present a world outside of the mech cockpit that is virtually identical to a boring version of our world today. It has nothing of the neo-feudal flare that you see in the sourcebooks or the writing of other authors (e.g. Milan).
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Toqtamish

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #41 on: 28 March 2011, 19:05:12 »
I know I'm going to get flamed... oh well.

If there was no Stackpole, there very well might be no Battletech today.  There, I said it.

Stackpole's novels pushed this universe forward.  Whenever FASA needed someone to write the story, they went to Stackpole. 

Most of the other novels were one off stories, he made the universe come alive.

Agreed, I am currently re-reading the Warrior Trilogy and loving every bit of it. Its more exciting than I remember it being. I like Stackpole, you want a bad BT/MW writer, Martin Delrio and his Proving Ground Trilogy pretty much sets the bar.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #42 on: 28 March 2011, 19:22:27 »
I think Stackpole and Delrio are equally skilled writers.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #43 on: 28 March 2011, 22:10:52 »
I see your point, but technically we don't actually know that. Somebody else would have been called up to write the core line. Maybe they would have been better, maybe they would have been worse. All in all, I will take the devil we know.

My biggest gripe with Stackpole is not his two-dimensional characters. Its the lack of flavor he provides for the background setting. With Stackpole you get well-written prose and a tight plot involving fairly static characters, but you never get much of a feel for the larger universe. The most information I think I ever got was that people near the Capellan border eat at Chinese-American restaurants. All in all, Stackpole tends to present a world outside of the mech cockpit that is virtually identical to a boring version of our world today. It has nothing of the neo-feudal flare that you see in the sourcebooks or the writing of other authors (e.g. Milan).
  Personally, in reading the Warrior Trilogy I was always blown away by how well it evoked such a neo-feudal atmosphere, at least for the scenes set in the LyrCom and FedSuns.  (The scene with Morgan Kell and that 'all-access pass' Archon Katrina wrote him being a case in point.)  Similarly, that original trilogy's portrayal of old-school 'Mech-bashing fights came across in a very visceral way that felt authentic to Big Stompy Robots blasting bits off each other; that Stackpole managed to convey that visceral sensation well enough that you didn't care about hearing the dice roll in the background is evidence of at least some talent, IMO.  :D
  It was when the timeline moved on to the Blood of Kerensky trilogy and the Clan era that the neo-feudal atmosphere of the setting and (to an extent) the visceral feel of the combat started to fade away, at least in my mind.  I'm not sure how much time Stackpole had to write the later novels, as opposed to the Warrior Trilogy, but I get the impression that he was on rather stricter deadlines (and wordcounts) as time went on, which might account for part of it, and I don't imagine that the increased scope of the works helped matters either.

  And, of course, pretty much nothing can compare to the awesomeness that is Wolves on the Border.   [notworthy]  Saying that those four novels represent the high-water mark of BT fiction writing might be overstating the case... but I really couldn't tell you by how much.   :-X
« Last Edit: 28 March 2011, 22:13:21 by Trace Coburn »

Taharqa

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #44 on: 28 March 2011, 22:44:28 »
I was talking about mech-battle flare. I was talking about everything but that. You know, when pilots get out of the cockpit and interact with their environment. Every planet feels the same in Stackpole's novels.
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A. Lurker

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #45 on: 29 March 2011, 01:37:44 »
I was talking about mech-battle flare. I was talking about everything but that. You know, when pilots get out of the cockpit and interact with their environment. Every planet feels the same in Stackpole's novels.

And they don't in the other authors' novels...how, exactly? It's not like we ever really see much of any given planet, after all -- usually, it's just the capital city, maybe an outlying settlement or two, and any battlefields created by the obligatory combat scenes. That's not really a whole lot to base an impression of an entire world on.

Taharqa

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #46 on: 29 March 2011, 11:12:26 »
See Victor Milan.
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A. Lurker

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #47 on: 29 March 2011, 11:35:49 »
See Victor Milan.

Oh, I've read Close Quarters and Hearts of Chaos. However, I'm not altogether convinced that the difference is one of style so much as simply one of focus. After all, the main viewpoint character of these two novels is a street-smart scout; in following her in her daily work for 'her' mercenary regiment, of course we're going to get to see the worlds she visits through different eyes than those of Stackpole's (and many others') 'Mechjocks, spymasters, and occasional heads of state. And even here, my earlier point about not really seeing a lot of a given planet still stands -- in all of Hearts of Chaos, what, if anything, is it that in your opinion makes Towne distinct from any other random planet out there on which Plot Happens?

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #48 on: 29 March 2011, 12:19:04 »
Kevin Killiany has always impressed me with how well he fleshes out his settings.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #49 on: 02 April 2011, 23:59:15 »
I'm not sure trying to flesh out individual worlds is a worthwhile goal for novels that span multiple worlds, or even multiple nations.  Every planet is going to be reasonably adapted for human life.  On a human scale, things like "this planet has 5 large continents, two of which are mostly desert", are not going to be as relevant as the tactical layout of the local spaceport where the mechs are going to battle.  The geography stuff is best left to sourcebooks, IMO.

Anyway, I enjoyed Stackpole a lot more when I was 11-13 or so (The "David Eddings is a great writer" phase  :P).  Dramatic, world-altering stories focused on individual mythically influential characters.  As you age, the supercharacters start to wear thin due to their lack of realism (and probably because we can't relate to them as growing up shows us how our own lives are much more limited).
(The above writing is entirely my opinion based upon my own incomplete knowledge of life, the universe, and everything beyond it and should be taken as such although I don't want to tell you what to do, because that's your right and your freedom to choose your own opinions and ablah blah blah legalese etc etc)

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #50 on: 03 April 2011, 01:55:05 »
Anyway, I enjoyed Stackpole a lot more when I was 11-13 or so (The "David Eddings is a great writer" phase  :P).  Dramatic, world-altering stories focused on individual mythically influential characters.  As you age, the supercharacters start to wear thin due to their lack of realism (and probably because we can't relate to them as growing up shows us how our own lives are much more limited).

Ironically, the thing I've found most wearying in BT fiction as I've grown older weren't the "supercharacters"(I seem to have a pretty high tolerance for the type in general anyway; probably helps me enjoy my escapism more than reading about the misadventures of yet another Everyman would) so much as the constant warfare and inter-faction squabbling that never actually ever gets anywhere. It may be the governing theme of the universe, it's probably all too depressingly realistic, and it's definitely a fine excuse to add some fluff to a tabletop game ("Today, let's replay the historical battle for the city of Foobar on planet Snafu. You get to be Clan Funny Animal this time if you want, and I'll play House Generic Ethnic Stereotype.")...but in the extended run, I've found that it just makes for boring reading, and I've lost most of my earlier interest in the canon storyline as a result.

That's possibly starting to drift a bit of topic, though.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #51 on: 03 April 2011, 20:28:59 »
It recently occurred to me that if you don't like Stackpole's characters out the gate you likely never will. There's not going to be some amazing new dynamic that totally shows the character in a new light, just new things that they fight or some new ability/weapon they get.  If you told Stackpole his characters lack depth, his counter-argument seems like it would be to list off the things they can/have done.


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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #52 on: 03 April 2011, 22:40:55 »
It recently occurred to me that if you don't like Stackpole's characters out the gate you likely never will. There's not going to be some amazing new dynamic that totally shows the character in a new light, just new things that they fight or some new ability/weapon they get.  If you told Stackpole his characters lack depth, his counter-argument seems like it would be to list off the things they can/have done.
  There are a couple of exceptions which prove the rule, though, both involving Phelan Kell/Ward/Kell.  For a MechWarrior punted from the Nagelring then rocketed up to the Khanship of Clan Wolf, he never struck me as possessing a real 'killer instinct'; he was always the merciful one, the guy who looked out for the way that involved the least possible loss of life for all sides involved, the one who spared his enemies so they could be redeemed/useful to his faction...

  ... and then we reach the end of Natural Selection, where he solves a thorny political problem with a simple "BOOM! Headshot!"  A character with his demonstrated moral stance embracing a utilitarian expedient worthy of Jack Bauer?  That was kind of a shocking swerve, IMO - and the first time I actually found Phelan to be anything other than another flavour of 'bland', because he actually did something effective.

  ... and then we read Grave Covenant, where the wrong words from 'Archon' Katherine Steiner-Davion make him ask "Does Phelan have to choke a bitch?"  Moment of rage or not, that struck me as the first time Phelan Kell thought/reacted like a 'might makes right' Clanner, not a Spheroid in Wolf uniform - and again, because he achieved something (putting the fear of him into Katherine, curbing at least one aspect of her scheming for a while), his getting a scene or so as Billy Badass did a lot to get him over with me as a reader.

  YMMV, naturally.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #53 on: 03 April 2011, 23:07:06 »
You see character development, but from where I'm standing it looks more like Stackpole has problems with consistent characterization.

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #54 on: 03 April 2011, 23:09:46 »
All of Phelan's Nagelring stuff and Kell Hound background is basically backstory, though. He gets captured in like his first scene, yeah?

Basically starts out as a prisoner and raises not by adapting (remember even as Khan how he kept his genes out of the breeding program until Ranna got a bloodname?) but by showing them how hard he is.

Phelan might seem different if his narrative had started with the Nagelring and not been flashback stuff, but the dude latches on to the Clan system really fast without any question as to the validity of a might-makes-right system.

To me it's not that he has adapted to the Clan system as much as he's just found some society where he can settle everything with violence and is really happy about that.


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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #55 on: 03 April 2011, 23:19:39 »
I guess i always looked at the audience that the novels were written for.  Most likely early teens.  Comic book plotlines it is, Faulkner it ain't.  Most the people that have a real issue with it, probably have outgrown it.  Yeah the writing is highly formulaic, he's building Fords, not Ferraris.   Kinda like that deep tortured soul music you listened to as a 13 year old, now you look back and wonder why a guy in his mid 20s is complaining about living with his parents...

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #56 on: 13 April 2011, 04:50:28 »
Didn't stakpole write somewhere that, while the lack of being paid was a contributing reason, he also
wanted to stop writing Battletech because he realized he loved torturing Victor too much?
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #57 on: 15 April 2011, 19:28:42 »
I know at the library today, I threw away every l book of his we had that wasn't Star Wars (and we only kept those as they are in the children's section...) Due to space requirements in our Sci-Fi/Fantasy section we are removing everything not checked out in the past 24 months. His were like 36...
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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #58 on: 15 April 2011, 21:54:32 »
I know at the library today, I threw away every l book of his we had that wasn't Star Wars (and we only kept those as they are in the children's section...) Due to space requirements in our Sci-Fi/Fantasy section we are removing everything not checked out in the past 24 months. His were like 36...

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Re: Is it just me or is it Stackpole?
« Reply #59 on: 17 April 2011, 00:11:15 »
I know at the library today, I threw away every l book of his we had that wasn't Star Wars (and we only kept those as they are in the children's section...) Due to space requirements in our Sci-Fi/Fantasy section we are removing everything not checked out in the past 24 months. His were like 36...

Bad library...no "Friends of the library" sale this time of year? They throw out books?
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