Wolverine Touman

[Stormlion1]

The Wolverine Touman, one of the big mysteries of this Clan. And one I think we have all asked about before and wondered about. Flipping through Betrayal of Ideals we only see two named Galaxy's Beta and Zeta and several units like the 205th Assault Cluster, the 331st Battle Cluster, the 2nd League Lancers Cluster, 444th Cluster and the Clans Command Trinary. Now I'm guessing if there was a 2nd League Lancers Cluster there was probably a 1st and the Alpha Galaxy probably existed as the original 40 warriors of the Clan and I don't see a Galaxy being disbanded that early in the Clan's existence so the Wolverines probably had at LEAST three Galaxy's before Nicky K decided to bring the hammer down on the Clan. Do you all think that's right? Three Galaxy's or do you think there might have been more?

[Deadborder]

It's really hard to tell. We know next to nothing about the transitional era Clan Toumans; numbers, sizes, unit compositions or the like. The first thing we can say is that they were relatively small, and likely more standardised then the rather disparate definitions we see today. My best guess would be something like three Galaxies tops and probably no more then three clusters to a galaxy.

OTP: Widowmaker Absorption gives a (slightly) clearer view of what the Clans looked like at the time

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Their page on Sarna has been updated recently to address BoI. Three Galaxies sound appropriate but there are some things needed to be considered.

First Zeta seemed to be raised during the Annihilation section of older warriors per BoI. That means it's probably an understrength formation.

They had several training sibkos of at least Trinary size or greater as well.

[Stormlion1]

It's really hard to tell. We know next to nothing about the transitional era Clan Toumans; numbers, sizes, unit compositions or the like. The first thing we can say is that they were relatively small, and likely more standardised then the rather disparate definitions we see today. My best guess would be something like three Galaxies tops and probably no more then three clusters to a galaxy.

OTP: Widowmaker Absorption gives a (slightly) clearer view of what the Clans looked like at the time

Going by this, say each Galaxy was made up of three trinarys to Five Trinarys. So Forty Five Mechwarriors at the least to Seventy Five Mechwarriors at the most. So if there was a full strength Alpha Galaxy, a Full strength Beta Galaxy and say a half strength (three Trinarys of Mechwarriors) Zeta the Wolverines may have had up to One Hundred and ninety five warriors not counting the fifteen in the Command Trinary and whatever warriors were part of second line forces.

[wantec]

Going by this, say each Galaxy was made up of three trinarys to Five Trinarys. So Forty Five Mechwarriors at the least to Seventy Five Mechwarriors at the most. So if there was a full strength Alpha Galaxy, a Full strength Beta Galaxy and say a half strength (three Trinarys of Mechwarriors) Zeta the Wolverines may have had up to One Hundred and ninety five warriors not counting the fifteen in the Command Trinary and whatever warriors were part of second line forces.

I don't know if the Trinaries description was specific to the Wolverines, but all the Clan resources I remember reading say 3-5 Binaries or Trinaries. That cuts it to 30-75 MechWarriors per Cluster. And with any case of combat losses you can see those numbers drop without necessarily reorganizing the unit.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

That was the established formations of the later Clan eras don't forget. The Wolverines at the time , while Clan, where more like the "SLDF 2.0 Nicky K version".

Also each Cluster was 3-5 binaries and Trinaries not each Galaxy. Each Galaxy had 3-5 Clusters...

[Stormlion1]

That was the established formations of the later Clan eras don't forget. The Wolverines at the time , while Clan, where more like the "SLDF 2.0 Nicky K version".

Also each Cluster was 3-5 binaries and Trinaries not each Galaxy. Each Galaxy had 3-5 Clusters...

Ups the numbers then. Your looking at over 300 warriors per Galaxy then. Which in the short time they existed may be a bit much. I could see Galaxys being around forty to sixty warriors apiece to mirror the original size of the Clan with a added Command Trinary/Binary. Damn, guessing there size is hard. The Widowmakers only a decade later had three clusters per Galaxy which might be about the size of the Wolverines Galaxys though.

[WeaponX]

Ups the numbers then. Your looking at over 300 warriors per Galaxy then. Which in the short time they existed may be a bit much.

You got to remember that the reason the other Clans were scared of the Wolverines was that they were outpacing all the other Clans in basically everything thanks to their "liberal" ideals.  Their lower castes were more productive and were able to move across castes fairly easily, so I can see how they were able to fill in warriors through personel transfers from other castes who showed aptitude at being warriors.

[Vition2]

Ups the numbers then. Your looking at over 300 warriors per Galaxy then. Which in the short time they existed may be a bit much. I could see Galaxys being around forty to sixty warriors apiece to mirror the original size of the Clan with a added Command Trinary/Binary. Damn, guessing there size is hard. The Widowmakers only a decade later had three clusters per Galaxy which might be about the size of the Wolverines Galaxys though.

Probably more than that, remember battle armor wasn't around yet, so infantry points were 25 troopers, all of which would be some type of warrior.  My suspicion is somewhere around 350-400ish warriors per cluster (2 'mech binaries [20], 1 vehicle binary [20+60], 1 ASF binary [20], 1 infantry binary [250]) with the potential for being much higher.

[Stormlion1]

Very good, I can see the Clan's though using other castes to fill in at certain jobs. We know Tank Commanders are Clan Warriors while techs fill the crew role. And I can see Laborers being used to fill in the spot of footsoldier while there sergeants and officers are warriors. A way to rapidly expand would also be multiple trials of positions. Fail the initial and you go down to armor or infantry. Give good enough service and there is a possibility of advancement upwards.

[Captain of C-21]

Very good, I can see the Clan's though using other castes to fill in at certain jobs. We know Tank Commanders are Clan Warriors while techs fill the crew role. And I can see Laborers being used to fill in the spot of footsoldier while there sergeants and officers are warriors. A way to rapidly expand would also be multiple trials of positions. Fail the initial and you go down to armor or infantry. Give good enough service and there is a possibility of advancement upwards.

Using non-warriors in warrior roles like Infantry is what got the Steel Vipers and Blood Spirits wiped out (Actually, what got them wiped out was the Star Adders, but the Clans I thought had a big no-no on civilians in warrior roles.

I guess I could see Technicians as vehicle crews though.

[Skyth]

Techs already do crew positions on naval vessels.

[Vition2]

To point it out, naval vessels are away from dock for extended periods of time and are often in places that don't have docks themselves - they need people always on hand in case something important breaks.  Combat vehicles, on the other hand, require relatively little in the way of maintenance bays, and could probably receive most lower-mid level repairs in what amounts to a typical barn.  They don't need actual tech crew with them - they can always be called up from the rear if need be and be there in an hour or two.

The clans apply the "warrior" term relatively loosely but also very definitely, basically coming down to whoever is allowed to hold a weapon is a warrior - the term applies to even paramilitary forces, such as the police, why would police deserve "warrior" status when those actually taking to the field of battle don't?

Now given the reminder that a big point getting the Wolverine's annihilated was based on their relative mobility between castes and the speed they were building up, it wouldn't surprise me if the crew were ex-technician caste.  Or that most of the infantry were ex-laborer caste, with only "true" warriors taking up the sergeant and higher slots.  But, in my eyes, all of these would be considered warriors.

[Captain of C-21]

To point it out, naval vessels are away from dock for extended periods of time and are often in places that don't have docks themselves - they need people always on hand in case something important breaks.  Combat vehicles, on the other hand, require relatively little in the way of maintenance bays, and could probably receive most lower-mid level repairs in what amounts to a typical barn.  They don't need actual tech crew with them - they can always be called up from the rear if need be and be there in an hour or two.

The clans apply the "warrior" term relatively loosely but also very definitely, basically coming down to whoever is allowed to hold a weapon is a warrior - the term applies to even paramilitary forces, such as the police, why would police deserve "warrior" status when those actually taking to the field of battle don't?

Now given the reminder that a big point getting the Wolverine's annihilated was based on their relative mobility between castes and the speed they were building up, it wouldn't surprise me if the crew were ex-technician caste.  Or that most of the infantry were ex-laborer caste, with only "true" warriors taking up the sergeant and higher slots.  But, in my eyes, all of these would be considered warriors.

Paramilitary police are warrior castes the vast majority of time, they are test-downs who didn't qualify for frontline/secondline/garrison duties.  And no, the Clans do not apply the warrior label to anyone who holds a gun; civilians with weapons get annihilated on principle.

Techs on ships and tanks are an exception because there is a warrior in charge and you need multiple people to run a ship or tank.  A civilian with a gun is a lower castemen who is unlawfully taking up arms against superiors.

[Stormlion1]

Also remember that this is the early Clan, within a decade or two of retaking the Pentagon Worlds and a generation or two from there Star League roots. It isn't seen as a breakdown of the way of the Clans at this point, its the Clans filling out there Touman's as best they can. And we know from Operation Klondike the Clans did use infantry that were not counted as warriors. Its in the 'Unblooded and Unknown' section of the book.There were forty original warriors with forty Auxiliary's that were promoted to warrior status after Klondike. And we know that even at this point the Clans were taking Bondsmen and recruiting from the defeated populations as well as training children (but not trueborns yet as that is a new tech still in development at this time) to rise into the role as warriors. The big thing holding Clan expansion back isn't warriors, but the lack of Mechs for them.

[Captain of C-21]

Also remember that this is the early Clan, within a decade or two of retaking the Pentagon Worlds and a generation or two from there Star League roots. It isn't seen as a breakdown of the way of the Clans at this point, its the Clans filling out there Touman's as best they can. And we know from Operation Klondike the Clans did use infantry that were not counted as warriors. Its in the 'Unblooded and Unknown' section of the book.There were forty original warriors with forty Auxiliary's that were promoted to warrior status after Klondike. And we know that even at this point the Clans were taking Bondsmen and recruiting from the defeated populations as well as training children (but not trueborns yet as that is a new tech still in development at this time) to rise into the role as warriors. The big thing holding Clan expansion back isn't warriors, but the lack of Mechs for them.

That is a good point, and I should have remembered that from the original Clan Sourcebook.  Even during Operation Klondike, there were warriors used who just weren't allowed to contribute to the gene pool.

[Stormlion1]

That is a good point, and I should have remembered that from the original Clan Sourcebook.  Even during Operation Klondike, there were warriors used who just weren't allowed to contribute to the gene pool.

I figure one of the things that the Wolverines did was promote the use of these 'lesser warriors' upwards into the Warrior ranks or into the same spot the 'Auxiliarys' once held. So it actually would be beneficial for the tech crewman of a tank or a infantryman to give there all if it could mean they would gain promotion upwards. I'm figuring the early Clusters of the Wolverine Time Frame were small affairs. Maybe Two or three Trinarys/Binarys with a binary of Armor and Infantry attached.

Nicky K originally planned on using troops like the 'Auxillarys' like squires to Clan Warriors as well. The later Sibko system was completely something done after his death.

[Wrangler]

Depends as whole how large Clan tourmans were by the time 2821 came rolling around.

Given that the Clan's invasion of Pentagon worlds, they barely had a battalion size force per invading Clan, not counting any that were bidded away or didn't make the cut. 

Having roughly 3 regiments of forces makes sense. The Wolverines were suggested to have been the most powerful or on their way before Nicholas decided to make them example when in-fighting look like it was rolling that way.  Wolverines may have been a larger force, but we'll never know unless a writer ends up pitching Historical Operational Turning Points style thing, where players can reenact the Rise and fall of Clan Wolverine.  More detail maybe given in a product like that unless it's dumbed down to keep too much details mess with canon.

[Stormlion1]

Depends as whole how large Clan tourmans were by the time 2821 came rolling around.

Given that the Clan's invasion of Pentagon worlds, they barely had a battalion size force per invading Clan, not counting any that were bidded away or didn't make the cut. 

Having roughly 3 regiments of forces makes sense. The Wolverines were suggested to have been the most powerful or on their way before Nicholas decided to make them example when in-fighting look like it was rolling that way.  Wolverines may have been a larger force, but we'll never know unless a write ends up pitching Historical Operational Turning Points style thing, where players can reenact the Rise and fall of Clan Wolverine.  More detail maybe given in a product like that unless it's dumbed down to keep too much details mess with canon.

Bidded away or didn't make the cut. I kind of figured Klondike was a 'all hands' operation with everyone involved. And I got to agree, I'm figuring 3-4 Galaxy's of troops though I doubt any were at what we would know as full strength. In a way I could see the early Clans building units up to match the strength they used during Klondike with forty warriors to eighty warriors.

[Wrangler]

Does make one wonder why the Tournmans got bigger.  Why would they?  Aside from colonization efforts, Nicolas Kerensky was trying drive in new direction.   We don't know if he truly desired to return to Terra reclaim the Star League.  If they did, then it makes senses for invasion.  I thought the drive to invade was more than century or more away and it was created by political faction that became the crusader political movement.

[Wotan]

If you assume you can better improve your fighting skills in life combat - you need more targets to practice ...

[Stormlion1]

Does make one wonder why the Tournmans got bigger.  Why would they?  Aside from colonization efforts, Nicolas Kerensky was trying drive in new direction.   We don't know if he truly desired to return to Terra reclaim the Star League.  If they did, then it makes senses for invasion.  I thought the drive to invade was more than century or more away and it was created by political faction that became the crusader political movement.

Why get bigger? Thats simple! Competition! Biggest Clan wins after all. And the Wolverines looked like they were expanding faster than all the other Clans not only in Touman size but also tech advancement. Nicholas in Betrayal initially didn't seem to have a issue with it either until the Khan's started complaining loudly enough that he felt like he was losing control.

[Wrangler]

IF TRO Golden Century comes out, we may get better understanding how thing were.  IF it does.

[Stormlion1]

IF TRO Golden Century comes out, we may get better understanding how thing were.  IF it does.

Or if it even references what happened. Golden Century really starts with Nicky K's death rather than when he was alive.

[Wrangler]

Or if it even references what happened. Golden Century really starts with Nicky K's death rather than when he was alive.

I was figuring the later, plus they need put those 3 Wolverine Mechs somewhere. Considering that they mentioned when asked if Unseen IIC mechs were going to be in that, they had said no.  Least when it was asked some months ago.