Author Topic: IlClan Delayed for Reformat  (Read 6202 times)

Firesprocket

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #90 on: 30 August 2017, 23:06:40 »

RotS fan

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #91 on: 30 August 2017, 23:12:35 »
So, you have not read anything from 90s & 00s, just Bonfire of Worlds?
He probably have, and probably that's why he doesn't want the Wolf as ilClan. The story couldn't be more predictable if that  happens. Also, Wolf is the Davion of the Clans, anyone sane should be tired of them by now

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #92 on: 30 August 2017, 23:29:22 »
lmao . . . They had a run in the invasion (early 90s), and that was it . . . until Bonfire (over 20 years later), so keeping in mind the Capellan winning . . . that might be an apt comparison.

And your right, it is predictable . . . because that is what the books were leading up to until they stumbled on releasing IlClan.
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SCC

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #93 on: 30 August 2017, 23:45:16 »
lmao . . . They had a run in the invasion (early 90s), and that was it . . . until Bonfire (over 20 years later), so keeping in mind the Capellan winning . . . that might be an apt comparison.

And your right, it is predictable . . . because that is what the books were leading up to until they stumbled on releasing IlClan.
Yep, a period of Davion and Capellan being on equal ground would probably be good for things right about now

Red Pins

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #94 on: 31 August 2017, 01:07:59 »
Sometimes I think that the (present) issue with ilClan coming it is analogous to when a new boss comes into a company/department. Doesn't matter how well things were going under the previous person. The new boss has to make (arbitrary) changes to distinguish things under his/her leadership from the prior gal/guy. It's frustrating as all hell for anyone who's suffered through it. It's also nearly inevitable. I'd consider the Combat Manual delay (and lack of even PDF products) as a symptom of this. :(

...also known as, "Take it out - he doesn't work here any more."

Well.  It will come out eventually, (when they start to run out of backfill and projects like TRO: SS, probably) and we'll decide if the re-write was worth it.
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Iron Mongoose

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #95 on: 31 August 2017, 02:41:49 »
...also known as, "Take it out - he doesn't work here any more."


Well, the stacked quotes thing isn't working properly, but I hope we all know who else chimed in here.

Anyway, I too have lived through this, and I too found dismay in it (and a few times a new job soon after, sometimes at my own instigation, sometimes not).  But, to be a devils advocate (and again mind I'm not in these meetings, so my insights are going to be worse than Herb's or Ben's, perhaps) there's a difrence between a buisness where the goal is clearly defined (usually just making money) and something involving artistic direction.  If I go in to manage a bank, I'm not going to make changes  unless I have a good faith belief they'll boost my numbers.  When I've had people come in over me, I can usualy just point to my performance (generally top of the table) to say that I'm already using best practices.

But, in an essentally artistic endevour, what are best practices?  How do you get your numbers up on the quality of writing, or the direction of a story?

So if your goal is to impart a sense of creative authorship on a project that must now bare your name (at least after a fashon, since I don't know how actual authorial credit would be assigned) then is that irrational changing something that was good anyway?  Or is that rational? 

Like I say, I'm not in the meeting, I'm not in a related field, and I don't know the people in question.  But, I do think that the decision to make a chance isn't nessissarialy irrational, even if the changed product may well have seemed like a quality product.  Of course, it isn't nessissarialy rational, either.

All I know is, as we've all said, however we may judge this decision, we will judge the finished product.  If this is to set the tone for a new era, and we're to wait for it, it had better prove to be a damn good tone.
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Sartris

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #96 on: 31 August 2017, 05:56:16 »
Ultimately the danger of delaying a project for too long runs the risk of the final product being crushed under the weight of expectations. Whether it is ultimately better than the original version becomes immaterial and meeting expectations proves a more and more difficult task as time goes on. Our community desire for ilClan to be good multiplied by the anticipation  could ultimately undermine its reception and perceived quality. If we're unhappy in any way, our natural tendency is to assume the original would have been better... or at least couldn't have been worse. One of the most dangerous things in sales is when the customer decides what they want before you tell them what it is.

It reminds me of the Patton quote "A good solution applied with vigor now is better than a perfect solution applied ten minutes later."

Kazashi

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #97 on: 31 August 2017, 07:15:53 »
It may be a little impertinent to comment without seeing the entirety of what the new LD said about ilClan, but this reformat is leaving me disappointed, and a little concerned. Would people make the claim that the writing from books such as WoR, ISP3 and the two Succession Wars books result in them reading like military reports? Is it really that necessary to spice up ilClan even if it will be covering a major transition in BattleTech history?

So it's back to waiting. I'm sure there are lots of people who are also eagerly awaiting ilClan, or from the other side would love to get it out the door. I for one would love to read GhostBear's version given how much I've enjoyed his other work, and am struggling to see how it would need a reformat if indeed it is like WoR/JHS but, well, you know.... I'll just keep waiting.

Foxx Ital

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #98 on: 31 August 2017, 07:39:23 »
What boggles my mind is ilclan sitting on the shelf for that long. Hearing there needs to be a rewrite only raises my expectations, which after this long of a wait means theres a good chance of me feeling about it as most ppl do about the third matrix movie.
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ColBosch

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #99 on: 31 August 2017, 09:22:13 »
I'm just hoping the ilClan is not Clan Wolf. They really need to lose. LOSE, I TELL YOU!

And yes, I've seen the pic of Devlin and a Mad Cat mk IV in a Circle of Equals, and I hope punches that Mad Cat right in the face! >:D


....it'll probably be the wolves....

It's the Wolves. Sometimes the obvious plot is obvious. Come on, Alaric couldn't be more "destined hero" if he tried. Let's go down the classical hero checklist.

1. Rightful heir to half the Inner Sphere (or four fifths, if you include Victor's ties to the Draconis Combine and Free Worlds League)
2. Child of two of the greatest (or, at least, most influential) rulers the Inner Sphere has ever seen
3. Product of incest; I know it's gross, but that's a pretty classical hero trait
4. Not born of woman
5. Born in exile
6. Raised by Wolves
7. Name means "conqueror," though of course this is deliberate in-universe

Unless Brent chooses to have something come out of left field, Alaric will be the ilKhan of the ilClan. Of course, just because we (probably) know this does not mean that there still aren't stories to tell.
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Peter Smith

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #100 on: 31 August 2017, 09:40:06 »
...it was exactly as it was the last 4 years on the shelf; 95% complete...

Four years and the book didn't get that last 5% completed? That's a failure of the line developers and the writer in charge of the book.
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GhostBear

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #101 on: 31 August 2017, 10:01:55 »
Four years and the book didn't get that last 5% completed? That's a failure of the line developers and the writer in charge of the book.

Nope, it's a failure for the owners to pay like they promised; the last 5% was mine and Schmetzer's material, and we did it as a boycott. I don't consider that a failure on our part.

Both Loren and Randall promised to pay all the writers for their material submitted when they determined they were going to put it on hold for a while, to make sure we were all compensated for our time and effort in trying to meet their original "hurry up and get it out" request. After repeated reminders to no avail - including proof of the original email with that specific promise - we just gave up and didn't bother finishing it.

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Punishermark

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #102 on: 31 August 2017, 10:29:52 »
Nope, it's a failure for the owners to pay like they promised; the last 5% was mine and Schmetzer's material, and we did it as a boycott. I don't consider that a failure on our part.

Both Loren and Randall promised to pay all the writers for their material submitted when they determined they were going to put it on hold for a while, to make sure we were all compensated for our time and effort in trying to meet their original "hurry up and get it out" request. After repeated reminders to no avail - including proof of the original email with that specific promise - we just gave up and didn't bother finishing it.

Someone finally posts the real reason why Catalyst is in dire straits. Lack of $$$.

ColBosch

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #103 on: 31 August 2017, 10:31:00 »
Nope, it's a failure for the owners to pay like they promised; the last 5% was mine and Schmetzer's material, and we did it as a boycott. I don't consider that a failure on our part.

Both Loren and Randall promised to pay all the writers for their material submitted when they determined they were going to put it on hold for a while, to make sure we were all compensated for our time and effort in trying to meet their original "hurry up and get it out" request. After repeated reminders to no avail - including proof of the original email with that specific promise - we just gave up and didn't bother finishing it.

For the record, when Herb fired me, he made sure that my payment for Era Digest: Age of War was expedited. It's a damn shame you guys haven't been paid for your work; I know it's one of Herb's complaints as well, and very valid.
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RotS fan

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #104 on: 31 August 2017, 11:02:54 »
Nope, it's a failure for the owners to pay like they promised; the last 5% was mine and Schmetzer's material, and we did it as a boycott. I don't consider that a failure on our part.

Good old CGL! I'm even more sympathetic towards you and Herb after this.

Sartris

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #105 on: 31 August 2017, 11:18:05 »
Someone finally posts the real reason why Catalyst is in dire straits. Lack of $$$.

I thought it was kind of an open secret at this point

Mindwiper

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #106 on: 31 August 2017, 11:31:51 »
What happened years ago with the writers and the Line Developer is a real shame. A naked walk through the masses should be initiated.

I can only laugh out very loud about the sorry excuse of 'rewriting IlClan'. Come on...Half a decade with a nearly finished core, core, core Sourcebook and suddenly this happens? There are not enough LOL smilies for that.

No IlClan, a book everyone wants, but dozens of PDF books like 'Touring the Stars' only some hardcore fans buy... Yeah! You know how to make money to bring the product Battletech in the 21st century.

7+ years no IlClan
2-3 years no Introbox
new Alpha Strike products...nowhere on the horizon

But hey...Dragons breath fire...quiaff?
« Last Edit: 31 August 2017, 11:54:46 by Mindwiper »

Moonsword

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #107 on: 31 August 2017, 12:15:36 »
Okay, folks, reign it in.  The moderation staff is closely observing this thread and we appreciate everyone remaining civil and refraining from incendiary hyperbole.

Gaiiten

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #108 on: 31 August 2017, 14:36:11 »
Hmm, IMHO reformating should not need so much time as a complete overhauling/rewriting.
So first (or second) quarter of 2018 for a release should be possible. IMHO
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Sellsword

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #109 on: 31 August 2017, 15:41:26 »
Someone finally posts the real reason why Catalyst is in dire straits. Lack of $$$.

Lack of funds is an issue but from the outside it appears what they really have is a management problem.




Sellsword

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #110 on: 31 August 2017, 15:44:49 »
Ilclan will be the last hurrah for me unless CGL does something dramatic with the IP or the IP goes to another company.

Unfortunately when and if the IlClan is released, the book will be hard pressed to live up to the 5+ years of delays and hype.

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #111 on: 31 August 2017, 16:16:46 »
Nope, it's a failure for the owners to pay like they promised; the last 5% was mine and Schmetzer's material, and we did it as a boycott. I don't consider that a failure on our part.

Generally speaking, what were the payment terms in your contract? Pay on delivery or pay on publishing?
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.

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Easy

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #112 on: 31 August 2017, 16:23:33 »
 Eh. This might have been my default scenario.

I'll grant you that it looks alot like, 'let's restore the old order'. It just still sort of sticks in my craw to see the Lyran Commonwealth go down like that. I'm sure it would be the same if it were any of the original Great Houses (except maybe the Cappellans, lol).

Old habits die hard, though. I'm interested in seeing what the 'new order' will bring.




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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #113 on: 31 August 2017, 16:33:19 »
Generally speaking, what were the payment terms in your contract? Pay on delivery or pay on publishing?

I know what you're getting at, to absolve them because the letter of the written contract (pay on publication). (And for the sake of argument here, let's ignore the fact that they've been breaching THAT clause all the time for the last 8-10 years ANYWAY.)

In an email conversation, ALD to LD (then Randall), after concerns were raised by me about the sudden removal of the project - specifically AFTER it was shoved into fast track mode roughly 8 months prior - I was told to tell the contributors that they would be paid for their work even though it hadn't been published. I clarified if that was an agreement in good faith and was told it was. In writing.

And no money was ever seen by any of the contributors.

Since my material - and the remaining short stories that Jason was doing for the book - was held off on the writing until after all other work was done (because we needed the others' material turned in so we could 'wrap up' the content properly), we hadn't finished. And when, after a year of constant queries (all ignored) passed by, we simply opted to not finish our work because it was apparent that if the others weren't getting paid as promised, we wouldn't be either. So why waste the time?

You can defend them using the letter of the contract, sure. Are you wrong to do so? No. Are they in the wrong by doing so? No.

(Again, setting aside so many other contracts with writers that are still outstanding, 5+ years later in some cases, AND the fact that it was said in correspondence that the clause would be waived.)

But it doesn't make it right, either.

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JadeHellbringer

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #114 on: 31 August 2017, 16:39:35 »
Both of you. THAT IS ENOUGH. If you want to continue debating contract details, do it in private, do it on another site, do it somewhere that isn't HERE.

I shouldn't even have to step in like this. I'm not pleased to do so. Think very carefully before pushing the issue further.
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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #115 on: 31 August 2017, 16:40:59 »
Both of you. THAT IS ENOUGH. If you want to continue debating contract details, do it in private, do it on another site, do it somewhere that isn't HERE.

I shouldn't even have to step in like this. I'm not pleased to do so. Think very carefully before pushing the issue further.

I was something-something. Once.

Doom

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #116 on: 31 August 2017, 16:53:53 »
It's the Wolves. Sometimes the obvious plot is obvious. Come on, Alaric couldn't be more "destined hero" if he tried. Let's go down the classical hero checklist.

1. Rightful heir to half the Inner Sphere (or four fifths, if you include Victor's ties to the Draconis Combine and Free Worlds League)
2. Child of two of the greatest (or, at least, most influential) rulers the Inner Sphere has ever seen
3. Product of incest; I know it's gross, but that's a pretty classical hero trait
4. Not born of woman
5. Born in exile
6. Raised by Wolves
7. Name means "conqueror," though of course this is deliberate in-universe

Unless Brent chooses to have something come out of left field, Alaric will be the ilKhan of the ilClan. Of course, just because we (probably) know this does not mean that there still aren't stories to tell.

I figured "Alaric" was just a direct reference to the king of the Visigoths, who sacked Rome and in so doing helped end the (Western) Empire. Substitute the Republic (as Rome supposedly was) for the Empire...

sadlerbw

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #117 on: 31 August 2017, 17:36:32 »
At this point, I've been convinced that who wins is less important than how the rest of the sphere deals with someone winning. So, there will be an ilClan...regardless of which clan that is, are the others really going to roll over and just merge with them? Do they even need to, or will they be allowed to remain separate and just sort of be vassals to the ilClan? Heck, the campaign for Terra could very likely be a meat grinder. Will the ilClan be strong enough to STAY ilClan? No matter which clan it is, there is plenty of narrative space there to make things turn out just as messy as you please if that is the desire.

Also, as a Davion fan, may I request that we get to keep New Avalon? I'm okay with the kicking in the teeth we have received recently (it was due, if I'm honest), but can we maybe keep the capital? You took Robinson and most of the Draconis March, and I let it go. You took New Syrtis and a big chunk of the Capellan march, and I figured, "fair play for the 4th succession war." You even started picking apart the Periphery March with the Ravens and Filtvelt and I didn't get upset. Look, I'll even let you hoover up some more of the Crucis march over by the Dragons Tongue, and push up closer to Kathil on the Capellan side. You can even carve a few more planets off for the Ravens! Just let us keep New Avalon. Deal?

Colt Ward

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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #118 on: 31 August 2017, 17:57:13 »
Due?  Its been Capellan winning since '55- aka the late 90s.
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Re: IlClan Delayed for Reformat
« Reply #119 on: 31 August 2017, 17:57:25 »
As a Davion fan, I want Robinson back. New Syrtis can be burned to shiny Dragonglass for the White Walkers, along with all of the Hasek line. But man, Robinson has suffered enough over the years. (OK fine, I just want the Black Knight line back, ok?)