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Author Topic: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions  (Read 10977 times)

monbvol

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #60 on: 08 June 2017, 12:35:03 »
From my reading of the rules no matter the source of the charge for the jump anything faster than 175 hours is a quick charge and down to 150 has no modifiers to the roll, so it should be reasonably safe.

So if you want to sustain anything faster than that it requires two or more Jumpships so that some are already in the process of charging.  The only way to ensure this happens so that the Dropships still are not waiting and thus make using the L1 the norm is to have more Jumpships in working order than Dropships.  Anything else makes it a gamble.  One that will fail far more often than not with what we're told the ratio of Jumpships to Dropships are.

Cryhavok101

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #61 on: 08 June 2017, 13:01:19 »
If each jumpship is carrying more than one dropship, you wouldn't need more jumpships than dropships.

monbvol

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #62 on: 08 June 2017, 14:00:57 »
Only if enough systems in the trade network need and generate enough trade goods that multiple Dropships are required.  Since most don't the limiting factor becomes less about the number of available collars and more about charge time versus transit time.

Ultimately though I just do not see the economic benefit to making the L1 the default.  Jumpships would have to charge more for the increased risk and fuel is cheap.  I also do not think there would be enough reduced maintenance of the Dropships for the reduced transit times to make up for the increased jump fees.

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #63 on: 08 June 2017, 18:39:11 »
Quote from: Cryhavok101
Could you explain that more? I don't understand where you are getting that from.

DropShip wants to go from A to C, via B, as quickly as possible.

DS links up to fully charged JumpShip X in system A, jumps to System B. JumpShip Y is sitting at System B, fully charged. DS moves from X to Y, which then immediately jumps to System C. With correct planning & coordination, you can "double-jump" and get to C in a couple of days - mainly time spent by the DS moving from surface to jump point, & vice versa.

Which is called in the literature "Pony Express"; a chain of pre-positioned and pre-charged JumpShips waiting to move a valuable cargo (new commanding general, super-secret sealed orders, or child brides) quickly over long distances. Having all the required JumpShips tied up - time spent being moved into position, and sitting around waiting - makes this expensive and disruptive to normal merchant shipping, and is usually the perogative of a Great House.

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Cryhavok101

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #64 on: 08 June 2017, 19:15:57 »
DropShip wants to go from A to C, via B, as quickly as possible.

DS links up to fully charged JumpShip X in system A, jumps to System B. JumpShip Y is sitting at System B, fully charged. DS moves from X to Y, which then immediately jumps to System C. With correct planning & coordination, you can "double-jump" and get to C in a couple of days - mainly time spent by the DS moving from surface to jump point, & vice versa.

Which is called in the literature "Pony Express"; a chain of pre-positioned and pre-charged JumpShips waiting to move a valuable cargo (new commanding general, super-secret sealed orders, or child brides) quickly over long distances. Having all the required JumpShips tied up - time spent being moved into position, and sitting around waiting - makes this expensive and disruptive to normal merchant shipping, and is usually the perogative of a Great House.

W.

I understand that. The part I don't understand is it taking more JumpShips than dropships. That is like saying that our historical pony express took more horses than it did mail. In your scenario every JumpShip is basically jumping back and forth between two systems, it can be carrying dropships both ways. The long the chain, the more dropships could be making use of it. Say you had a chain of 10 jump ships, each able to carry 3 dropships. There will always be 30 or more dropships moving around that chain in a cycle. I really don't understand how it ever equates to "needs more JumpShips than dropships" unless the whole chain is only being used by one set of dropships. I mean if you used a chain of JumpShips like that to only move one DropShip the distance, sure it would be a waste (baring military or political necessity of course), but I see nothing saying it needs to be wasted that badly.

You certainly wouldn't use that method to send DropShips places that doesn't need that kind of traffic, but the only way it would "take more JumpShips than DropShips" is if you don't fill up the JumpShips on every jump they make. Other than lack of needed traffic, I see no reason not to fill the JumpShips. At least as I understand it. If I am wrong, please educate me.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #65 on: 08 June 2017, 19:28:53 »
I understand that. The part I don't understand is it taking more JumpShips than dropships. That is like saying that our historical pony express took more horses than it did mail. In your scenario every JumpShip is basically jumping back and forth between two systems, it can be carrying dropships both ways. The long the chain, the more dropships could be making use of it. Say you had a chain of 10 jump ships, each able to carry 3 dropships. There will always be 30 or more dropships moving around that chain in a cycle. I really don't understand how it ever equates to "needs more JumpShips than dropships" unless the whole chain is only being used by one set of dropships. I mean if you used a chain of JumpShips like that to only move one DropShip the distance, sure it would be a waste (baring military or political necessity of course), but I see nothing saying it needs to be wasted that badly.

You certainly wouldn't use that method to send DropShips places that doesn't need that kind of traffic, but the only way it would "take more JumpShips than DropShips" is if you don't fill up the JumpShips on every jump they make. Other than lack of needed traffic, I see no reason not to fill the JumpShips. At least as I understand it. If I am wrong, please educate me.

You might be down in the weeds and focusing on the "what" and losing it in the relevance of the "why".  I think what you appear to be missing is that monbvol is saying that he's saying L1 isn't any more economically viable than Z/N.

I'll risk putting words in his mouth, and add in that given the factors cited upthread (by myself and others) that there just isn't good reason for pirate points (such as L1s)  to take over as "standard" jump points in a system rather than the conventionally standard jump points of Z/N.
« Last Edit: 08 June 2017, 19:30:40 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Daryk

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #66 on: 08 June 2017, 19:30:51 »
"Pony Express"?  I thought that was called a "command circuit" in universe...

Cryhavok101

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #67 on: 08 June 2017, 19:35:25 »
You might be down in the weeds and focusing on the "what" and losing it in the relevance of the "why".  I think what you appear to be missing is that monbvol is saying that he's saying L1 isn't any more economically viable than Z/N.

I'll risk putting words in his mouth, and add in that given the factors cited upthread (by myself and others) that there just isn't good reason for pirate points (such as L1s)  to take over as "standard" jump points in a system rather than the conventionally standard jump points of Z/N.

Well I agree with you on that. I just don't understand the "takes more JumpShips than DropShips" comment.

monbvol

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #68 on: 08 June 2017, 20:00:21 »
I understand that. The part I don't understand is it taking more JumpShips than dropships. That is like saying that our historical pony express took more horses than it did mail. In your scenario every JumpShip is basically jumping back and forth between two systems, it can be carrying dropships both ways. The long the chain, the more dropships could be making use of it. Say you had a chain of 10 jump ships, each able to carry 3 dropships. There will always be 30 or more dropships moving around that chain in a cycle. I really don't understand how it ever equates to "needs more JumpShips than dropships" unless the whole chain is only being used by one set of dropships. I mean if you used a chain of JumpShips like that to only move one DropShip the distance, sure it would be a waste (baring military or political necessity of course), but I see nothing saying it needs to be wasted that badly.

You certainly wouldn't use that method to send DropShips places that doesn't need that kind of traffic, but the only way it would "take more JumpShips than DropShips" is if you don't fill up the JumpShips on every jump they make. Other than lack of needed traffic, I see no reason not to fill the JumpShips. At least as I understand it. If I am wrong, please educate me.

You might be down in the weeds and focusing on the "what" and losing it in the relevance of the "why".  I think what you appear to be missing is that monbvol is saying that he's saying L1 isn't any more economically viable than Z/N.

I'll risk putting words in his mouth, and add in that given the factors cited upthread (by myself and others) that there just isn't good reason for pirate points (such as L1s)  to take over as "standard" jump points in a system rather than the conventionally standard jump points of Z/N.

Now to be fair I am almost certainly wrong about using L1 as the default requiring more Jumpships than Dropships.  For it to work though certainly requires a far more favorable Jumpship to Dropship ratio.

There are a lot of variables to consider to figure out where that would finally end up.

Still yes, with fuel being basically free and maintenance such a low value as well I just see it not being profitable for the Dropship Captain for the L1 point to be the default.

Now as a special case where a client needs/desires something in a hurry, then yeah I can see the odd special request.

SCC

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #69 on: 08 June 2017, 22:43:10 »
monbvol seems to have a different view of the amount of JS traffic that a system sees, chiefly little to none. While we seem to be assuming that there is more then JS visiting a system at once, he isn't.

monbvol

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #70 on: 08 June 2017, 22:53:23 »
Which is what the fluff seems to support outside of some rather rare special cases.  At least when you consider how many inhabited planets there are.

SCC

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #71 on: 09 June 2017, 00:49:51 »
StratOps says that previous estimates of the number of DS and JS are low by at least an order of magnitude in older sources, the IS is something like 1,000 worlds, taking the lowball of 20,000 JS, that means there should be an average of 20 JS in a system at any one time.

VhenRa

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #72 on: 09 June 2017, 03:32:10 »
Pretty sure the IS is closer to 2,000 worlds.

Archangel

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #73 on: 09 June 2017, 07:42:47 »
I'm sure that after the Jihad the number of JumpShips was significantly reduced.  That said the IS has as many or as few as the story needs.  TPTB are never going to give an exact (or even close to exact) answer to avoid painting themselves in a corner.  If they did then somebody is sure to say that it conflicts with this story or that story.

As far as command circuits are concerned, they are almost always comprised of military JumpShips which wouldn't carry civilian DropShips during normal operations anyways.  In an emergency civilian JumpShips might be commandeered to form part of a temporary command circuit.  In such a case, the civilian JumpShip would be required to follow military orders until their release and their crews might even be replaced by a military crew.  After playing their part they might be released to go about their business or, if during a conflict like the 4SW or War of 3039, they might be assigned to other duties, ferrying troops or supplies, etc.
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Vition2

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #74 on: 09 June 2017, 09:41:06 »
I'm sure that after the Jihad the number of JumpShips was significantly reduced.

I actually suspect the opposite is more accurate.  While JumpShips were more frequently targeted than in the past there weren't any particular pogroms against them (iirc) - the amount lost is likely comparatively insignificant.  In addition the transferal of assets from clan space to the Sphere by the Falcons, Wolves, Foxes, Horses and Ravens likely suggests a massive influx of JumpShips to their areas - though availability for trading may be much more limited. 

Re: Average of 20 JS per station
As VhenRa mentioned, the IS is closer to 2k worlds, and if I remember the couple of times I've actually counted them, just the major houses and the clans add up to somewhere around 2,200 worlds, with another 2-300 named in the near periphery realms.  This puts the number closer to 10 per world, and reasonably many of these are going to be using routes along the higher trade areas with much fewer outside these.  Places in the Fed Sun's outback may still only see a single jumpship every month or so.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #75 on: 09 June 2017, 09:54:22 »
I seriously doubt we'll ever see any canonical tidbit that will enable us to confirm or deny it, but I rather like the benchmark of ~10 Jumpships being present on average in any given system... of course skewing more than that at important worlds and at worlds on the trade routes near important worlds... and skewing less in economically and politically unimportant places.

It jives pretty well with my other presupposition that DropShips routinely head to a Z/N transit point even if they don't have a pre-booked travel arrangement, trusting that opportunity will be there to negotiate passage on whatever JumpShip is going their way.

monbvol

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #76 on: 09 June 2017, 11:34:45 »
Yet we have a great many systems that only see a Jumpship once a month, maybe one a week in the fluff.

Also there seem to be a good portion that are tied full time to mercenary and house commands that do no commercial work at all.

Now all that said there are certainly clusters that get more.  I've done the math using zneith/nadir points, transit times, and to minimize number of ships involved assumed the biggest dropships possible to see what it would take to make some stated trade routes work as described in fluff.  I can't remember the last one I did but to do as described in fluff it would take well over 100 Jumpships at minimum to do what was described.

Still even if there were 10 Jumpships per system and were distributed in such a manner that there were 10 Jumpships per system it still doesn't change the fact that using the L1 point as the default for commercial traffic just does not make economic sense.  Jumpships would still have to charge more as there is more risk jumping into the L1 point no matter how many there are.  I can't see this increased jump fee being cheaper than just burning the fuel to get to the zenith/nadir point instead.

SCC

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #77 on: 09 June 2017, 15:32:14 »
Those would be systems like Jesup which are entirely dependent upon imports for things like food, right?

monbvol

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #78 on: 09 June 2017, 15:37:55 »
I don't think I've done the numbers for Jessup in particular but yes.

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #79 on: 09 June 2017, 15:38:34 »
Pretty sure the IS is closer to 2,000 worlds.

Yes, about 2000 in Inner Sphere.

Regarding JumpShip numbers, those were vaguely expanded and more vague-ified in StratOps. The notion, and I'm not sure this is somewhere in print yet, is that they were also heavily produced by the Republic of the Sphere for their population shuffling efforts in the 3080s to 3100s. The end result is that by the 3130s the Inner Sphere has a number of JumpShips equal to "what the plot needs." The plot will still factor in the rarity of JumpShips, but there should be fewer cases where numbers of JumpShips and claimed shipping requirements conflict.

Those would be systems like Jesup which are entirely dependent upon imports for things like food, right?

As discussed in StratOps, those systems are very rare. Most of them died in the Succession Wars.
« Last Edit: 09 June 2017, 15:41:22 by cray »
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monbvol

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #80 on: 09 June 2017, 15:44:12 »
Which is compatible with the idea that Jumpships operate in clusters with most worlds not seeing regular commercial traffic that other fluff supports.

idea weenie

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #81 on: 09 June 2017, 19:25:13 »
My point was that unless the sail is COMPLETELY obscured a JS this close to a star won't have it's charge time affected.

One potential concern about having the jump sail that close to the star is that it will be receiving 100* the amount of energy per square meter.  So the recharging sail will have to be put at an angle to prevent it from being burned out.  If my geometry is correct, you'd want a tangent of 100 (or .01) making it an angle of 89.4 degrees or almost edge on to the local star.

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #82 on: 10 June 2017, 01:46:55 »
I actually suspect the opposite is more accurate.  While JumpShips were more frequently targeted than in the past there weren't any particular pogroms against them (iirc) - the amount lost is likely comparatively insignificant.  In addition the transferal of assets from clan space to the Sphere by the Falcons, Wolves, Foxes, Horses and Ravens likely suggests a massive influx of JumpShips to their areas - though availability for trading may be much more limited. 

Actually there was albeit part of the Word of Blake's general plan to sow chaos and fear by disrupting trade and communication not to mention every faction's attempts to interdict enemy troop movements.  One also needs to remember that several key shipyards were damaged if not destroyed completely (including Galax, Alarion and Necromo) crippling the production of new JumpShips.  The number of JumpShips brought in from the Clan Homeworlds likely only made up a fraction of what was lost.  It certainly didn't help that many of their JumpShips were destroyed before they even left the Clan Homeworlds including a large convoy of Shark JumpShips.
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Vition2

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #83 on: 10 June 2017, 09:35:52 »
Actually there was albeit part of the Word of Blake's general plan to sow chaos and fear by disrupting trade and communication not to mention every faction's attempts to interdict enemy troop movements.  One also needs to remember that several key shipyards were damaged if not destroyed completely (including Galax, Alarion and Necromo) crippling the production of new JumpShips.  The number of JumpShips brought in from the Clan Homeworlds likely only made up a fraction of what was lost.  It certainly didn't help that many of their JumpShips were destroyed before they even left the Clan Homeworlds including a large convoy of Shark JumpShips.

To the first point, it seems that most of the disruption of trade was focused on military trade and was heavily focused on actually destroying/controlling production centers rather than destroying jumpships - though I do not have my books on hand so will have to verify/annul that part later.  I do feel the need to mention that the destruction of warship/jumpship yards doesn't mean that jumpships were specifically targeted - each of the three shipyards you mention as being destroyed were very specifically able to build warships, making them fall into the military target category.

To the second, that convoy was a Raven convoy, a small number of Shark jumpships were included.  It was also the third such convoy, and though it was the stated to be the largest (and last) of the three, the mention of it being nearly 100 or more than 100 jumpships (with a star of warships) leaves a large range of possibilities for the other two Raven convoys.  The other clan convoys didn't get much mention, but almost all of them had quite a year or two more time to move than the Ravens as they were the snakes' first real target.  (Edit: oops, I keep forgetting that the Sharks lost a large convoy in route to the OZs to the Burrocks)

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #84 on: 14 June 2017, 04:04:03 »
To the first point, it seems that most of the disruption of trade was focused on military trade and was heavily focused on actually destroying/controlling production centers rather than destroying jumpships - though I do not have my books on hand so will have to verify/annul that part later.

How did the Great Houses traditionally make up shortages of military JumpShips?  By conscripting civilian JumpShips which not only disrupts trade but turns the civilian Jumpships into military targets. 

And while the Blakists did focus their efforts on military targets, they didn't neglect civilian targets as this quote from Jihad Final Reckoning (p82) attests.

Quote
Interstellar production of transportation, communications, luxuries, and even basic necessities were smashed on a great many worlds, sometimes by accident but just as often as part of a deliberate strategy to undermine the anti-Blakist forces by burdening them with a further-diminished civil support. When you are facing collapsing infrastructure, millions of deaths and probably millions more displaced citizens, it becomes a tough call to choose between pursuing the villains who created the situation, or saving as many failing systems as you can to minimize the losses.

And that only accounts for the JumpShips destroyed by the Word of Blake.  One cannot discount the large numbers of JumpShips of both Blakist and non-Blakist origin destroyed by other IS powers and various Clans (ex: Black Dragons destroyed numerous Nova Cat JumpShips, AFFS destroying CCAF and Taurian JumpShips and vice versa, Regulan targeting all Blakist assets including JumpShips, etc).

Quote
I do feel the need to mention that the destruction of warship/jumpship yards doesn't mean that jumpships were specifically targeted - each of the three shipyards you mention as being destroyed were very specifically able to build warships, making them fall into the military target category.

You missed my point entirely.  With the destruction of several key shipyards and several other shipyards being heavily damaged/crippled over the course of the Jihad, the ability of the Great Houses to replace JumpShips lost  during the Jihad was severely crippled.  End result:  fewer JumpShips at the end of the Jihad than there would have been if those shipyards hadn't been destroyed/heavily damaged/crippled.

Quote
To the second, that convoy was a Raven convoy, a small number of Shark jumpships were included.  It was also the third such convoy, and though it was the stated to be the largest (and last) of the three, the mention of it being nearly 100 or more than 100 jumpships (with a star of warships) leaves a large range of possibilities for the other two Raven convoys.  The other clan convoys didn't get much mention, but almost all of them had quite a year or two more time to move than the Ravens as they were the snakes' first real target.  (Edit: oops, I keep forgetting that the Sharks lost a large convoy in route to the OZs to the Burrocks)

So where are all these JumpShips?  JFS (p113) clearly implies the Clans are suffering from a shortage of JumpShips which they need to rebuild their infrastructure.

Quote
Given the needs of the Clans to rebuild their infrastructure it can be safely assumed that their naval construction—like that of the Inner Sphere—will be devoted to JumpShips rather than WarShips for the foreseeable future.

This quote (JFS, p113) clearly implies that the Falcons are suffering from a shortage of JumpShips.

Quote
...Olivetti Weapons has been starved of resources to build its ’Mechs by ongoing rebellions and a lack of JumpShips.
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dragonkid11

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #85 on: 25 July 2017, 20:58:36 »
One probably stupid question.

It's possible to detect a Jumpship jumping in based on its emergence signal.

But it's absolutely not possible to detect where a Jumpship has jumped out of a system, right?
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monbvol

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #86 on: 25 July 2017, 23:11:37 »
My memory on that is a bit foggy.  But I do want to say that you pretty much have to be so close to detect a ship jumping out it doesn't really matter by that point.

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #87 on: 26 July 2017, 16:28:43 »
One probably stupid question.

It's possible to detect a Jumpship jumping in based on its emergence signal.

But it's absolutely not possible to detect where a Jumpship has jumped out of a system, right?

The intent of jump signal detection is that departing ships make the same ripples in space that are so distinctive about an arriving ship. However, I think the rules tend to emphasize arrivals.
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dragonkid11

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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #88 on: 26 July 2017, 18:57:52 »
I think i worded my question wrong...

What I meant to ask is it's not possible to detect which system did a jumpship jumped into when escaping from hostile forces, from the perspective of a hostile force, right?
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Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #89 on: 26 July 2017, 19:05:56 »
What I meant to ask is it's not possible to detect which system did a jumpship jumped into when escaping from hostile forces, from the perspective of a hostile force, right?

Correct. The only data delivered by a JumpShip's arrival/departure signature is how long the pulse lasts, which is a factor of:

1) How many docking collars it has
2) How far the jump is

If the type of ship is known and the length of pulse known, then you can guess how far it jumped. Check a map and look at possible destinations at that range. It's usually, but not always, a safe assumption to ignore the thousands of uninhabitable systems within a jump's range and focus on the inhabited ones.

However, even if there's a single possible destination star system, then you don't know which jump point (zenith, nadir, an infinite range of pirate points) was the destination. You also don't know where the JumpShip arrived in the target jump point. Zenith and nadir points diffuse into the endless proximity limit points and open interstellar space, so they can easily be millions or tens of millions of kilometers away from the nominal zenith/nadir point. That would easily put a JumpShip beyond any other sensors.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.