Register Register

Author Topic: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions  (Read 10978 times)

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8004
A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« on: 23 May 2017, 05:21:50 »
1. Recharge Stations. OK I can see these existing in systems with dim stars and in the time before HPG's to speed couriers along, but in more modern times? Well I can easily see them being limited to military use only, but even if they aren't, who gets to use them? Can you pre-book their use?

2. Only using Zenith and Nadir points. I can see the need to use them in a system where you don't have any data or what data you have being old, but for a major system, and especially one where you're part of a command circuit? No explanation for not arriving on the proximity limit as close as possible to the planet or using a LaGrange point, this later actually allows you to avoid needing to run your drives for a week while you recharge the sail as well, an added bonus.

Frabby

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3914
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #1 on: 23 May 2017, 07:45:43 »
1. Recharge stations give you a (iirc) +2 bonus to quick-charging, so they do boost recharge time even in regular systems. We've had this discussion before on this forum.
But ultimately, yes, they aren't as terribly useful as they're sometimes made out to be.

2. One of the Gray Death novels explained that you need an up-to-date ephemeridis on a given system to safely plot pirate jump points.
Zenith and nadir points have the advantage of ignoring the planets and all stuff on the accretion disk. Fewer extra factors means fewer possible error sources - and in a JumpShip, you're quite literally betting your life on safe jump points.
Also, the jump points are on the star's proximity limit, perpendicular to the accretion disk with all those pesky bodies messing up your jump solutions.
It's the added complexity of planetary bodies that allows for pirate points within that limit, closer to the star. Which also explains why it's such a pain to properly calculate LaGrange points - you have to factor in not only the planet and moon, but also the sun's gravitation. For a "simple" sun-planet-moon configuration, that is. It gets messy really quick with several moons.
« Last Edit: 23 May 2017, 07:48:14 by Frabby »
Sarna.net BattleTechWiki Admin
Author of the BattleCorps stories Feather vs. Mountain, Rise and Shine, Proprietary, Trial of Faith & scenario Twins

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #2 on: 23 May 2017, 10:27:41 »
I like to consider JumpShips as being analogous to clippers and windjammers.  Actually, the entire paradigm of BTU travel as basically being "1850 in Space".

More to the point of the OP: why bother traveling from Zenith/Nadir to the next Zenith/Nadir? I can give two very good reasons.  They both revolve around being a bastion of life in the otherwise lifeless void of deep space. 

One: safety.  Whether a mechanical breakdown is catastrophic or inconvenient in nature, they're inevitable.  And you can only carry so many spare parts and components on board.  Eventually you're going to be in a position where you have to either jury rig a repair to some aspect of the ship, or need to ask someone nearby to sell or trade you what you need.  You can do that at a regularly used Zenith/Nadir point.  Not so much anywhere else.  Hell, if it actually IS so bad as a catastrophic failure, you can even get into the lifeboats and actually be rescued!

Two: profit. JumpShips don't operate like modern air travel where you have a scheduled departure and arrival with no unscheduled stops in between.  JumpShips bounce around from system to system, picking up whatever dropships willing to be paid to be carried into the next system in the direction you're going.  Hard to find DropShip captains and passengers willing to give you money if you *don't* navigate through Zenith/Nadir points.

Frabby

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3914
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #3 on: 23 May 2017, 11:10:46 »
Two: profit. JumpShips don't operate like modern air travel where you have a scheduled departure and arrival with no unscheduled stops in between.  JumpShips bounce around from system to system, picking up whatever dropships willing to be paid to be carried into the next system in the direction you're going.  Hard to find DropShip captains and passengers willing to give you money if you *don't* navigate through Zenith/Nadir points.
I'd challenge that point - I am pretty convinced that hardpoints can, and usually will be, booked well in advance. Free traders hiring out hardpoints on the spot in something like an auction exists, but I got the impression that they are the exception, not the rule.
However, your reasoning that "jump points" make excellent stations still holds true, and I fully agree with that.

(And once more, I take this opportunity to voice my theory that ComStar operated a massive fleet of neutral JumpShips on "bus lines" throughout the Inner Sphere, and handled all the advance hardpoint booking. That fleet must have been on par, or possibly even bigger than, any Great House JumpShip fleet. As a merc unit or even a pirate - if you weren't on ComStar's wanted list - those neutral vessels would carry your DropShip to and from your target system with no questions asked.)
Sarna.net BattleTechWiki Admin
Author of the BattleCorps stories Feather vs. Mountain, Rise and Shine, Proprietary, Trial of Faith & scenario Twins

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #4 on: 23 May 2017, 11:55:24 »
I'd challenge that point - I am pretty convinced that hardpoints can, and usually will be, booked well in advance. Free traders hiring out hardpoints on the spot in something like an auction exists, but I got the impression that they are the exception, not the rule.
However, your reasoning that "jump points" make excellent stations still holds true, and I fully agree with that.

(And once more, I take this opportunity to voice my theory that ComStar operated a massive fleet of neutral JumpShips on "bus lines" throughout the Inner Sphere, and handled all the advance hardpoint booking. That fleet must have been on par, or possibly even bigger than, any Great House JumpShip fleet. As a merc unit or even a pirate - if you weren't on ComStar's wanted list - those neutral vessels would carry your DropShip to and from your target system with no questions asked.)

Sure, I agree that advance booking exists.  I guess we agree to disagree as to what percentage of traffic is booked in advance and what percentage of traffic is arranged purely in the short term on a space available basis.  I envision a percentage of JumpShips operating as Free Traders, going wherever money is to be made.  I envision regularly scheduled jumps that can be booked ahead of time as being rare due to the difficulties in actually keeping to a pre-arranged schedule.  The aforementioned breakdowns inevitably happen.  Most don't render a JumpShip unable to continue on, but many will cause unscheduled delays for repairs.  Again going back to the Age of Sail paradigm: JumpShips don't arrive at a set date, much less a set time.  They're scheduled to arrive "on or about" some day.  So if you're a DropShip captain and your JumpShip doesn't show up for the scheduled rendezvous, what do you do but ask around among the other JumpShips nearbly at the Z/N if anyone going your way has an empty docking collar?

And it's not just the inevitable mechanical problems that will prevent JumpShips from arriving on precise timelines.  You have the various House Armies (and mercs in their employ) citing military emergencies and commandeering any JumpShips they can catch.  You read about that all the friggin' time in fiction :) 

Anyway between all that (not even gone into delays due to piracy) there can be only so much regularly scheduled interstellar traffic that can be booked ahead of time.  It's probably only going on deep in the cores of the Great Houses' empires, possibly only in segments that don't even connect to one another.
« Last Edit: 23 May 2017, 15:33:26 by Tai Dai Cultist »

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8004
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #5 on: 24 May 2017, 04:30:17 »
1. Recharge stations give you a (iirc) +2 bonus to quick-charging, so they do boost recharge time even in regular systems. We've had this discussion before on this forum.
But ultimately, yes, they aren't as terribly useful as they're sometimes made out to be.
Considering that an Olympus-class station only has 8 batteries and each one can charge only one JS and I'm guessing that each takes a week to recharge, that makes sense.

2. One of the Gray Death novels explained that you need an up-to-date ephemeridis on a given system to safely plot pirate jump points.
Zenith and nadir points have the advantage of ignoring the planets and all stuff on the accretion disk. Fewer extra factors means fewer possible error sources - and in a JumpShip, you're quite literally betting your life on safe jump points.
Also, the jump points are on the star's proximity limit, perpendicular to the accretion disk with all those pesky bodies messing up your jump solutions.
It's the added complexity of planetary bodies that allows for pirate points within that limit, closer to the star. Which also explains why it's such a pain to properly calculate LaGrange points - you have to factor in not only the planet and moon, but also the sun's gravitation. For a "simple" sun-planet-moon configuration, that is. It gets messy really quick with several moons.
That works for an unexplored, but not for a known one, in fact I'm pretty sure that SO says that LaGrage points will be naturally swept clean of stuff.

My question was not "Why does an individual captain use the Z/N points?" But rather "Why are the Z/N the standard?"

Frabby

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3914
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #6 on: 24 May 2017, 05:15:27 »
My question was not "Why does an individual captain use the Z/N points?" But rather "Why are the Z/N the standard?"
Just a guess, but from how I understand it, your emergence point will usually shift away from other ships already in the area and standard jump "points" offer plenty of room. LaGrange points and other pirate points, on the other hand, are relatively small to the point where the risk of jumping into another ship is significantly higher.
Of course, we've never been told how JumpShips avoid jump accidents at the standard jump points. I always assumed they probably drop a bit closer to the star, just below the proximity limit, to recharge and use their station keeping drives to nudge them back over the proximity threshold before they jump out again. Safe distance from other ships jumping out is 20 kilometers, and 2 kilometers from other ships jumping in.
Sarna.net BattleTechWiki Admin
Author of the BattleCorps stories Feather vs. Mountain, Rise and Shine, Proprietary, Trial of Faith & scenario Twins

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #7 on: 24 May 2017, 10:19:22 »
My question was not "Why does an individual captain use the Z/N points?" But rather "Why are the Z/N the standard?"

Because it's simultaneously the simplest AND safest way to do a jump?  At least compared to pirate points inside the proximity limit.  Why Z/N as opposed to any other point outside or along the sphere of the proximity limit has been mentioned by Frabby and myself upthread.  Something (I believe that) Frabby alluded to that I think merits an additional mention is that the Z/N points are perpendicular to the star's accretion disk... and therefore the system's planets' orbital planes.  If you jump in at a Z/N point, the transit time for dropships down to the destination planet is always the same.  Anywhere else, the transit time varies based on where the planet happens to be in its annual orbit.

And of course, there's the safety and (arguably) the profitability factors favoring "doing what everyone else is doing" as well.

...
Of course, we've never been told how JumpShips avoid jump accidents at the standard jump points. I always assumed they probably drop a bit closer to the star, just below the proximity limit, to recharge and use their station keeping drives to nudge them back over the proximity threshold before they jump out again. Safe distance from other ships jumping out is 20 kilometers, and 2 kilometers from other ships jumping in.

In my headcanon, navigators plot in a randomized direction (in 3 dimensions) and distance (in tens of kilometers) from the exact targeted point when travelling to a Z/N (coupled with a safety check that verifies the new plotted point isn't now on top of a known hazard like a recharge station).  With enough variable distance, it should render the odds of jumping in on top of someone, even at a busy Z/N station, virtually nil.

Since it's not technically nil, there's also a second layer.  Not my headcanon, but actually in the rules.  The IR heat bloom begins showing up long before you do.  If anyone happens to be danger close to your arrival point, they'll certainly see the IR bloom forming.  And giving them time to GTFO.  Even 0.1g thrust from a JumpShip is sufficient for this.
« Last Edit: 24 May 2017, 10:21:34 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Giovanni Blasini

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5331
  • And I think it's gonna be a long, long time...
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #8 on: 24 May 2017, 10:57:47 »
In addition, jumping to known points, like the zenith/nadir, gives rescuers a better idea where to look for you if things go wrong.  They're also simple enough, comparatively, that your navigator can calculate them by hand if you, say, lose your main computer that does your calculations.
"“Eternity is a long time, especially towards the end.” -- Stephen Hawking

gomiville

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 352
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #9 on: 24 May 2017, 13:52:28 »
Also, from a security standpoint, I could see systems wanting incoming jumps to only appear at the Z/N points.  Emergence waves are pretty easy to detect, even at system-wide ranges, but that's it.  After you detect an incoming jump, it might be a week before you know what arrived (because it reached you or you reached it).  Consider the costs of constantly running security drills whenever an unexpected merchant ship arrives at a pirate point, or a non-Z/N proximity limit point.

Z/N point are (relatively) small spaces to patrol and manage, even with just a small craft or light dropship.  A system can detect and then verify an incoming craft easily.

I imagine innocent traffic arriving on unregistered jump points being fined, if not inadvertently fired upon by jump security forces.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8004
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #10 on: 24 May 2017, 16:14:30 »
The thing is there are MAJOR military and economic advantages to jumping in closer and there isn't actually any security advantages to requiring arrivals to come in at the Z/N, so unless the costs of jumping to and from these locations is prohibitive, which it likely ISN'T seeing as how common their use is, I have toi wonder why they aren't used. In fact from a security prospective sun/planet LaGrage points are probably the preferred arrival points.

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #11 on: 24 May 2017, 16:30:57 »
The thing is there are MAJOR military and economic advantages to jumping in closer and there isn't actually any security advantages to requiring arrivals to come in at the Z/N, so unless the costs of jumping to and from these locations is prohibitive, which it likely ISN'T seeing as how common their use is, I have toi wonder why they aren't used. In fact from a security prospective sun/planet LaGrage points are probably the preferred arrival points.

Military advantages to using pirate points?  Clearly.  But still, canon lore is unanimous about it being a riskier alternative to standard jump points.  In military operations, higher risk can be an acceptable factor in the right circumstances.

Economic advantages?  Sure, for the DropShip captains.  I'm not so sure there are economic advantages to be had for the JumpShips, though.  Not unless the JumpShips and DropShips are owned by the same entity, which probably won't be the case.

Even if there were no safety and filling-up-space-available-docking-collars aspects in favor of Z/N (and I feel it's pretty well demonstrated that there *are*), keeping insurance coverage is surely an economic disincentive for a JumpShip owner in making repeated use of pirate points.  I'd even imagine insurance concerns might limit commercial JumpShips from using anything BUT Z/N points (barring of course those times House Armies shanghai the ship into military service).

gomiville

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 352
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #12 on: 24 May 2017, 17:57:24 »
In fact from a security prospective sun/planet LaGrage points are probably the preferred arrival points.
For an attacker, sure, but for the defender?  Having someone jump closer to you, where you have less time to prepare defense, seems like a worse option.

Which is why I think, in universe, planetary governments would want to "encourage" arriving civilians to use the Z/N points.

Giovanni Blasini

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5331
  • And I think it's gonna be a long, long time...
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #13 on: 24 May 2017, 17:58:56 »
Hey, just look at Wannamaker's Widowmakers.
"“Eternity is a long time, especially towards the end.” -- Stephen Hawking

Iron Mongoose

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1473
  • Don't you know, you're all my very best friends
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #14 on: 25 May 2017, 00:15:17 »
I think the preference made significant sense in the succession wars era.  In a time when a lot of knowledge is lost, you have to ask carefully how much risk you want to subject your jumpship to, when it is at once centuries old and maintained more by intuition and tradition than by understanding, and also completely irreplaceable.  To me, the very rational answer is absolutely zero.  Sure, pirate points may have a success rate of 99.99%, but measured against an expected service life of somewhere between centuries and "forever" for a jumpship, .001% is nothing short of suicidal.  Only in the most dire need (when the chance of losing the ship is higher still, such a the Kell Hounds in the Warrior Books) would a pirate point be used. 
"For my military knowledge, though I'm plucky and adventury,
Has only been brought down to the beginning of the century..."

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8004
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #15 on: 25 May 2017, 03:15:44 »
Economic advantages?  Sure, for the DropShip captains.  I'm not so sure there are economic advantages to be had for the JumpShips, though.  Not unless the JumpShips and DropShips are owned by the same entity, which probably won't be the case.
You do realize that a JS that executes it's jumps such that DS have shorter travel times

Even if there were no safety and filling-up-space-available-docking-collars aspects in favor of Z/N (and I feel it's pretty well demonstrated that there *are*), keeping insurance coverage is surely an economic disincentive for a JumpShip owner in making repeated use of pirate points.  I'd even imagine insurance concerns might limit commercial JumpShips from using anything BUT Z/N points (barring of course those times House Armies shanghai the ship into military service).
Except I don't think the fiction bears this out, when has a major attack gone astray because it used a pirate point? Or rather, what percentage of pirate point jumps that we see are failures?

Frabby

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3914
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #16 on: 25 May 2017, 05:32:08 »
Except I don't think the fiction bears this out, when has a major attack gone astray because it used a pirate point? Or rather, what percentage of pirate point jumps that we see are failures?
There are examples of JumpShip malfunctions in the fiction. A particular prominent example is Clan Ghost Bear's Black Lion-class Bear's Den that used a pirate jump point to get into the Damian system fast but ran afoul of a small asteroid - which caused considerable damage to the WarShip and cost them an entire, fully-loaded Overlord-C with all hands save eleven people. (See novella Ghost Bear's Lament - Instrument of Destruction.)

The jump rules bear out that the use of pirate point is considerably more likely to result in a jump accident of some sort. However, most jump accidents are non-lethal, resulting in an abortive jump, or an emergence a few hunderd or thousand (or hundreds of thousands) of kilometers off-target. These don't kill anyone immediately, but economically, may spell desaster for a free trader. Only a very few misjumps actually cause the flashy effects like damage to the ship or even casualties among the crew.
« Last Edit: 25 May 2017, 05:34:58 by Frabby »
Sarna.net BattleTechWiki Admin
Author of the BattleCorps stories Feather vs. Mountain, Rise and Shine, Proprietary, Trial of Faith & scenario Twins

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #17 on: 25 May 2017, 09:39:33 »
Economic advantages?  Sure, for the DropShip captains.  I'm not so sure there are economic advantages to be had for the JumpShips, though.  Not unless the JumpShips and DropShips are owned by the same entity, which probably won't be the case.
You do realize that a JS that executes it's jumps such that DS have shorter travel times

Yes I realize that... I referred to it right in the quote you cited.  However I wonder if you caught on to *my* point: just because a DropShip benefits it doesn't mean the JumpShip benefits.  Any benefit is enjoyed only be the DropShip(s) and whatever they may  be carrying.  For the JumpShip, using a pirate point is added risk for no added benefit. Depending on the nature of a pirate point (especially one that's not permanently "open"), using a pirate point is added risk for diminished benefit...if the JumpShip is all alone and away from safety/security of other spacefarers.

Quote
Except I don't think the fiction bears this out, when has a major attack gone astray because it used a pirate point? Or rather, what percentage of pirate point jumps that we see are failures?

I like and agree with Frabby's response to this part.

I'd also add that the fiction does have an aspect of selection bias involved.  If on one hand the lore says in an abstract manner that "pirate points are risky" yet on the other hand there are few episodes of a pirate jump point going awry compared to episodes where using pirate jump points went without a hitch.. it doesn't mean the former lore is dubious.  It means that travel is a means to an end in telling the story and a story that ends with "and they all died when they misjumped" is one that isn't very good.

Sometimes the "elephant repellent" isn't just a joke and it's actually repelling elephants.  There are few documented cases of a pirate point jump going awry because pirate points are rarely used, because they sometimes go awry.  Even if odds are in your favor on any given single pirate point jump (as may arguably be inferred by the rules or the proportion of stories where a pirate jump does NOT go awry compared to those that do) over time it's a cumulative risk.  If you have a slim chance of something going wrong, that means you have a great chance of something going wrong not happening.

Once.

Keep it up, and the cumulative chance of something not going wrong begins to dangerously erode, even if the odds of a misjump are slim any given jump.
« Last Edit: 25 May 2017, 09:42:49 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Cryhavok101

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1842
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #18 on: 25 May 2017, 09:41:50 »
Plus there is the damage to the K-F core that you would have to get repaired for every miss jump, even if you were only a few hundred kilometers off target. Between the downtime with it's resultant loss of revenue, and the decreasing margin before your JumpShip is worth no more than a large tin can, and the cost of the repairs themselves. Minimizing those costs is gonna be a big thing for a JumpShip captain.

I know when I was driving big rigs, minimizing downtime and repair costs was pretty important for me. I can only imagine how much more important it would be for something like a JumpShip. I doubt minimizing risks and costs would stop being an important part of the transportation industry.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8004
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #19 on: 27 May 2017, 05:51:25 »
Yes I realize that... I referred to it right in the quote you cited.  However I wonder if you caught on to *my* point: just because a DropShip benefits it doesn't mean the JumpShip benefits.  Any benefit is enjoyed only be the DropShip(s) and whatever they may  be carrying.  For the JumpShip, using a pirate point is added risk for no added benefit. Depending on the nature of a pirate point (especially one that's not permanently "open"), using a pirate point is added risk for diminished benefit...if the JumpShip is all alone and away from safety/security of other spacefarers.
You don't think that as JS offering such services would see for customers or be able to charge higher fees? Or both? Or that if something does go wrong you're in much better position?

I like and agree with Frabby's response to this part.
Frabby's case is, from what I understand, a bad one. The supposed problem with pirate points is that a math error can be made and the point isn't there because the planets of the system aren't where you thought they were, not you got hit by an asteroid immediately afterwards (This might not actually be possible, the asteroid if it was close enough to be an immediate threat if should have caused the jump to fail)

More and more this seems the be the case of the original idea of JumpShips not being fully thought out.

Cryhavok101

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1842
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #20 on: 27 May 2017, 08:27:48 »
It's an extra +4 on the control roll. The control roll is already a +2, so with a average piloting of 4 or 5, you are looking at needing a 10 or 11 to do it. If this roll fails, you have to spend additional blocks of time until you succeed, with each block of time being equal to 2d6-Margin of Success. Failure means it could take upwards of 10 extra hours (worst case) for a failed roll (More if you were moving). Which if you eventually make it in a reasonable amount of time, would still be a net gain for your dropships, but eventually lack of success would just be delaying them from reaching the planet. (numbers from section on making the jump in SO pg 88)

Once you do make the jump you make another control roll. You get your margin of success as a bonus, but the target number gets increased for every point of damage your K-F drive has taken. Success is success, but failure applies 1d6*2*Margin of Failure capital scale damage to each armor facing of the JumpShip and every dropship it carries. In addition the K-F drive integrity is reduced by the margin of failure, and if that reaches 0, the JumpShip and all of it's dropships are destroyed by the jump process. (SO pg 89) (I find it interesting that a MoF of 2 on this roll could potentially do enough damage to destroy any JumpShip in TRO 3057r from the damage alone, on any jump)

Nothing in the rules apparently makes jumping to a non-standard point more dangerous, since the two control rolls are not connected at all. Apparently jumping to those points just potentially takes a lot longer, and if they don't succeed at the jump calculations quickly, it could potentially waste a lot of everyone's time. Time is money, especially in transportation. If I had to guess, the nonstandard points aren't used because or the random chance of huge amounts of time being wasted.

Another thing to consider is can the Jump Sail actually charge the drive as effectively from the nonstandard point? If it is an L1 point between a planet and it's moon, how much time will be spent in the planet's shadow relative to the sun, extending the charging process? This potentially wastes even more of the JumpShip's time, possibly a much more significant amount of time.

Something else to consider is how close to the ground do you want your JumpShip. The closer to a planet it gets, the easier it is for someone to try something stupid. With much less turnaround from the surface to an L1 point between a planet and it's moon than to the zenith/nadir points of the star, it could be riskier to jump to those spots. The JumpShip can't exactly run either, since it's max burn is 1/10th the max burn of the slowest thing that might try something, and leaving the very small L1 point would mean you can't jump until you get somewhere else (at 1/10th the burn speed of the slowest dropship). If your sail is deployed you have to choose whether you are gonna get boarded or lose the sail 'cause they break when you move around with them deployed. (Fluff in SO on pg 124 and Advanced Battleforce Rules in SO pg 276)




Frabby

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3914
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #21 on: 27 May 2017, 08:56:58 »
Frabby's case is, from what I understand, a bad one. The supposed problem with pirate points is that a math error can be made and the point isn't there because the planets of the system aren't where you thought they were, not you got hit by an asteroid immediately afterwards (This might not actually be possible, the asteroid if it was close enough to be an immediate threat if should have caused the jump to fail)
If you miscalculate and miss the jump point then you can't jump there - the jump attempt will only "jump" you to where you started and possibly damage your KF drive.
At the same time we know that asteroids or even entire WarShips aren't massive enough to disrupt a jump attempt. It's possible to jump/rematerialize right into one.

More and more this seems the be the case of the original idea of JumpShips not being fully thought out.
;D. Aye, of course. But it's fun trying to make sense of Beer & Pretzels science.
Sarna.net BattleTechWiki Admin
Author of the BattleCorps stories Feather vs. Mountain, Rise and Shine, Proprietary, Trial of Faith & scenario Twins

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #22 on: 27 May 2017, 10:56:01 »
You don't think that as JS offering such services would see for customers or be able to charge higher fees? Or both? Or that if something does go wrong you're in much better position?

No, on both counts.
Why not being able to command more money: Because keeping to a fore-booked schedule is already challenging before adding in the added problems of hitting pirate points.  Plus, just because we don't hear about insurance coverage for JumpShips and/or their Captains, I believe it's unreasonable to presume there isn't any.  I have a hard time seeing the insurance carriers of the Inner Sphere tolerating routine use of riskier pirate points than the "accepted" and safer options in Z/N.  Pirates and Military forces won't worry about keeping current on insurance coverage, but I simply can't imagine that NOT being a concern for commercial carriers and private owners (you think Duke Humperdink is *really* gonna let someone who insurance companies won't cover fly his precious JumpShip?)
And Space-A just won't work at pirate points if everyone is already converging at Z/N for that purpose.

Why on not being safer: I'm not sure if we're just talking lagrange or pirate points.  For the record, I'm talking pirate points (since not every lagrange is a pirate point).  You have inevitable mechanical breakdowns by using the safest option around in Z/Ns.  You'll have even more by rolling the dice and using pirate points.  Even if your pirate point puts you close enough to ask for assistance from the target world (and that's hardly a given) you're going to need that assistance more often just by not using Z/Ns.  At best it's a wash, and in reality probably you're taking 1 step by getting closer, but falling 2 or 3 back in extra problems you wouldn't have otherwise had.

Quote
...
More and more this seems the be the case of the original idea of JumpShips not being fully thought out.

I think it's less not being thought out and more that the paradigm actually changed since being originally given.  Who remembers the old FASA Star League House book?  Early (Pre-Star League) Terran Hegemony naval doctrine was to blockade both Zenith and Nadir points and they'd have the system under siege since noone could jump in or out past their warship fleets at Z & N.
« Last Edit: 27 May 2017, 10:58:49 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Death by Lasers

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 297
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #23 on: 27 May 2017, 15:59:40 »
  One thing to add about recharge station is that they can act as vital commerce hubs or exchange nodes in a logistics chain.  For any goods traveling through multiple jumpship jump-routes the presence of a recharge station can keep you from having to fly the goods down to planet only to have to them be picked up again by an outgoing dropship for the next jump-route.  Instead, just drop them at the recharge station and have them picked up at the jump point.

  As for using pirate points as commerce routes I will have to look into it.  For some reason I thought penalties for miss-jumps were more punitive.  I will say that even a small chance for disaster can quickly add up over time though.  I mean at 100k per jump per collar (CAMOPS) it would take over 2,000 successful jumps just to pay off the cost of the jumpship or over 50 years of jumping :o. (on a side note the jump industry must really be suffering at those rates...)
“I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”

J.R.R Tolikien, The Two Towers

Archangel

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5618
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #24 on: 27 May 2017, 21:34:03 »
Local authorities tend to take a dim view to unauthorized vessels using pirate points  and may take (what they deem) appropriate action up to and including destroying the offenders (remember Wannamaker's Widowmakers first visit to Outreach?).  After all how are they to know whether those vessels are merely merchant vessels or are smugglers trying to evade inspection of cargo/passengers or are raiders here to attack the planet?

There is also the possibility that the spaceport may not have an available space at the spaceport for the DropShip to land and trying to land elsewhere is almost certainly to anger the local authorities and the clients who paid for their cargo/themselves be delivered to THAT spaceport not somewhere in the wilderness.

Not to mention that there are untold number of possible pirate points with many constantly moving/shifting as the systems' planets and moons move.  With so many pirate points in so many solar systems to keep track there is a high chance of a miscommunication/confusion ("You said meet at PP2516x156y168." "No I said we would meet at PP2516X165y186.") and forcing the DropShips to expend the fuel and time to meet up with the JumpShip.  The likelihood increases when the two parties haven't worked together before (or have track the pirate points differently) or are meeting in a system that one (or both) parties are not familiar with.

One also can't forget that unless some arrangement was made beforehand the chances of two JumpShips jumping into the same pirate point within a reasonable timeframe for them to exchange cargo/DropShips is remote.  By routing traffic through the Zenith/Nadir points there is a far more reasonable chance for a DropShip to be able to catch a ride on a JumpShip going in the direction they want to go if they haven't be able to make arrangements beforehand or if those arrangements fall through (JumpShip delayed or never arrives, military commandeers it, etc).

While jumping into a pirate point gives the defenders less time to respond it also gives the JumpShips less time to respond if the defenders decide to launch a strike against them.  My player group had to create a house rule because I nearly destroyed the player group's ride home during a raid scenario before the GM intervened.  (I swear I was holding back.   >:D)
« Last Edit: 27 May 2017, 21:41:04 by Archangel »
Detect evil first, smite second and ask questions later.

gomiville

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 352
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #25 on: 29 May 2017, 08:13:22 »
Local authorities tend to take a dim view to unauthorized vessels using pirate points...
Exactly.

Even if pirate points aren't a compounding risk for the jumping ship, I can easily imagine an in-universe pressure from planetary governments to use established and regulated jump points.  At least in those systems with the resources to enforce law within their star system.

Charistoph

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1310
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #26 on: 30 May 2017, 12:57:33 »
  One thing to add about recharge station is that they can act as vital commerce hubs or exchange nodes in a logistics chain.  For any goods traveling through multiple jumpship jump-routes the presence of a recharge station can keep you from having to fly the goods down to planet only to have to them be picked up again by an outgoing dropship for the next jump-route.  Instead, just drop them at the recharge station and have them picked up at the jump point.

  As for using pirate points as commerce routes I will have to look into it.  For some reason I thought penalties for miss-jumps were more punitive.  I will say that even a small chance for disaster can quickly add up over time though.  I mean at 100k per jump per collar (CAMOPS) it would take over 2,000 successful jumps just to pay off the cost of the jumpship or over 50 years of jumping :o. (on a side note the jump industry must really be suffering at those rates...)

And those are assuming that the Jumping ship in question either doesn't Jump or makes it to its destination at all.  How many Jump/Warships were lost for the simple fact that it never came back from the Jump?  Wouldn't that be more likely in a Pirate Point Jump than a Z/N Jump?  And there are stories in the fluff about ships not showing up where they were expected.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

vidar

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 607
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #27 on: 30 May 2017, 18:26:19 »
I would also wonder about maneuvering from one transient pirate point to another with a jumpships limited trust.  Not to add the need to charge the drive.  Might be complicated to arrange and make short transit times not as attractive?

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21062
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #28 on: 30 May 2017, 18:50:30 »
Even station keeping drives are incredibly powerful compared to real life.  Constant 0.1 g thrust will get your around a planetary system in relatively short order.

Giovanni Blasini

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5331
  • And I think it's gonna be a long, long time...
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #29 on: 30 May 2017, 18:55:09 »
Yep. Takes 28 days at 0.1 Gs for a JumpShip to make a 10 AU transit a DropShip/WarShip at 1 G makes in around 10 days.  That's not bad.
"“Eternity is a long time, especially towards the end.” -- Stephen Hawking

vidar

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 607
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #30 on: 31 May 2017, 07:37:01 »
Yes the drives are powerful, I was thinking more the combined time to charge the drive and get to a new pirate point.  I don't remember if a jumpship can effective use its drive to maneuver and keep the jumpsail deployed.


Frabby

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3914
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #32 on: 31 May 2017, 10:47:00 »
The whole purpose of the station keeping drive is, well, keeping the ship stationary (relative to the sun) so that its delicate jump sail isn't disturbed.
Sarna.net BattleTechWiki Admin
Author of the BattleCorps stories Feather vs. Mountain, Rise and Shine, Proprietary, Trial of Faith & scenario Twins

vidar

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 607
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #33 on: 31 May 2017, 16:39:23 »
My book are packed but I was wondering if the added time to move to a new pirate point and then charge would be longer than just charging at the jump point.  Also the window in time at a pirate point would make the calculation for getting to the point and attaching the dropships problematic.

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #34 on: 31 May 2017, 16:48:47 »
Well pirate points exist in four dimensions.... you have x y and z just like a physical object but they also "open" and "close".  If you use a pirate point to jump in to the system, it may close again before you jump out.   It can be a question of how long do you have to wait for the gravitational forces to balance out again.   Hopefully you didn't miss a pirate point window that only opens every few years... or centuries!

If you jump in to a pirate point and can't get out again before it closes, your "station keeping" drive can push you out beyond the proximity limit (or to another currently open pirate point) so you can jump out of the system again... but that travel will be a huge time sink as you can't be recharging the solar sail in the process.. and you'll transit slower than a dropship with exponentially more powerful thrust.
« Last Edit: 31 May 2017, 16:52:58 by Tai Dai Cultist »

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 23565
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #35 on: 31 May 2017, 19:32:57 »
[real world]If we could get VASIMR working, it'd give us 0.1G continuous. Which makes the difference between Mars in 14 days, eating packed lunch, and Mars in 9 months, eating recycled human waste.[/real world]

Commercial ships are likely to head to zenith points because if a system has interstellar infrastructure, that's where you'll find it. Recharge stations don't only have batteries, they have a range of spare parts, supplies of oxygen & water, food you haven't tried before, and faces you haven't seen.  Expensive, sure.

And if you are running a dodgy repaired JumpShip, then having a repair crew somewhere nearby could be worth your life.

Military ships? Sure. Lots of reasons not to use the standard points, if you know the local conditions well enough.  But as mentioned, you'd better have your transponder going if you jump into non-standard areas around a major planet.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

gomiville

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 352
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #36 on: 01 June 2017, 16:09:10 »
I've held long head canon (and enforced in any AUs I mess with) that many systems differentiate zenith and nadir locations. 

Something like zenith for commercial traffic, with some kind of transit station (maybe recharge, maybe cargo holding, probably customs, maybe a Ferengi running a bar with gambling, etc). 

And nadir point for military traffic, with a naval station (maybe a shipyard, maybe rec facilities for troops, the vice admiral's office, etc). 

Pirate points near the inhabited planet, and other other points of interest in the system, are closely monitored and defended.  Pirate points elsewhere in the system are regularly patrolled, if ships are available to patrol.

HobbesHurlbut

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2908
  • Live Free or Die Hard
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #37 on: 01 June 2017, 18:29:06 »
And those are assuming that the Jumping ship in question either doesn't Jump or makes it to its destination at all.  How many Jump/Warships were lost for the simple fact that it never came back from the Jump?  Wouldn't that be more likely in a Pirate Point Jump than a Z/N Jump?  And there are stories in the fluff about ships not showing up where they were expected.
This is why having up to date astrological data is very important on a system; Nadir and Zenith points are easier to calculate as they're relatively free of any astrological body's gravitational well for most parts. Pirate points are harder to calculate beyond the fixed ones which are usually already covered well enough.
Clan Blood Spirit - So Bad Ass as to require Orbital Bombardments to wipe us out....it is the only way to be sure!

idea weenie

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2986
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #38 on: 01 June 2017, 20:58:36 »
Economic advantages?  Sure, for the DropShip captains.  I'm not so sure there are economic advantages to be had for the JumpShips, though.  Not unless the JumpShips and DropShips are owned by the same entity, which probably won't be the case.

One economic advantage is that since you are orbiting near the planet instead of at the Z/N region, you are 1/10 the distance to the sun, meaning you can receive up to ~100 times as much solar energy per square meter.  This means your recharge time can drop to as little as 1% normal.  However this imposes all the quick-charge penalties associated with doing that.  Still, if the star you are targeting to jump to has a 300 hour recharge time at the Z/N zone, and you need to shave hours, jumping to a pirate point (i.e. between the planet and the star) means instead of spending 300 hours recharging, you only ned to spend ~175 hours (or whatever the safe recharge time is).

It also drops time for Dropships to transit.  IIRC, it is on average ~10 days transit to/from Z/N and the destination planet, but only ~8 hrs from a pirate point to the same planet.  So instead of your Dropships burning fuel for 20 days, you can deliver cargo within 20 hours.

Even if there were no safety and filling-up-space-available-docking-collars aspects in favor of Z/N (and I feel it's pretty well demonstrated that there *are*), keeping insurance coverage is surely an economic disincentive for a JumpShip owner in making repeated use of pirate points.  I'd even imagine insurance concerns might limit commercial JumpShips from using anything BUT Z/N points (barring of course those times House Armies shanghai the ship into military service).

Insurance would raise rates for using Z/N points, but if the Jumpship can travel faster due to using them the insurance costs can be handled by having higher income.  You are also only ~8 hours away from an inhabited planet, instead of ~10 days, meaning if you get in trouble you can get helped a lot faster.


Yes the drives are powerful, I was thinking more the combined time to charge the drive and get to a new pirate point.  I don't remember if a jumpship can effective use its drive to maneuver and keep the jumpsail deployed.

For the planet-star pirate point, it is effectively the L1 LaGrange point which objects can orbit (like SOHO is).  So a Jumpship could jump to the L1 pirate point, maneuver into a parking orbit, and deploy its sail partially (due to the 100* as strong solar emissions at that distance).

Now the fun part for the L1 point is that it incorporates rotation of the planet as part of the math that defines the L1 point, but a pirate point is only concerned with gravity.  So that could make things 'interesting'.


(This Pirate Point discussion is why one of the supertechs I wished the WoB had developed was a Pirate Point Network.  I.e. a freighter wants to go from system A to System B, but reduce travel time.  So they pay a fee to WoB, and request pirate point calcs from the local HPG.  That HPG sends a request to the destination system for current pirate point calcs.  The destination system processes the calcs and includes a time frame where those calcs can be used, and a second time frame where they will be useless.  This is to make sure nobody tries to jump in at the same time someone else is maneuvering to leave.  System B HPG sends the data back to System A, and System A sends the calcs to the requesting Jumpship.  Each system's HPG uses its own HPGs supercomputers to calculate continuous pirate point calcs in case they are needed, both for the main planet, and for other planets in-system.  It would allow rapid freight shipping, and also rapidly deploying troops from one planet to another.)

vidar

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 607
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #39 on: 02 June 2017, 06:34:52 »
All those nice L points have a little issus, they also collect any thing with a low enough V.  So yes they are nice and predicable, but also full of junk.  So it just takes one bit that's to big for your K-F field to blow up and your in a world of hurt.  Not so in nice clean N/Z points. 

And quick charging drives is almost never a good idea, a few stray watts and your suck until someone remanufatures your biggest most complex component.  Until that happens your a really sucky dropship.  And in many cases in seem that it's simpler to just scuttle your ship than reapir it.

cray

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5983
  • How's it sit? Pretty cunning, don't you think?
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #40 on: 02 June 2017, 09:18:24 »
All those nice L points have a little issus, they also collect any thing with a low enough V.  So yes they are nice and predicable, but also full of junk.  So it just takes one bit that's to big for your K-F field to blow up and your in a world of hurt.  Not so in nice clean N/Z points. 

The only junk-collecting points are sometimes L4 and L5, but those aren't valid jump points. The only valid Lagrange jump point is L1 (or, rather, a place near L1 - jump drives don't care about the centripetal component, just the gravitational component of Lagrange points).

L1, L2, and L3 are not stable points and thus stuff at them won't stay there without active station keeping. SOHO et al need to burn 1 to 10m/s of fuel per year to remain at the Earth-Sol L1 point. The actual jump point near L1 is even less stable because it's further away from the larger body and thus deeper in the gravity well of the smaller body forming the Lagrange point - jump drives don't care about the centripetal factor that puts the actual L1 point closer to the larger body. If an arriving JumpShip doesn't immediately move to a halo orbit or Lissajous orbit around L1, it'll naturally fall into an elliptical orbit around the smaller body. Any debris in the area won't stick around, either.

L4 and L5 are also not stable in all situations over long periods. In the solar system, only the Jovian and Neptunian solar L4 and L5 points are stable for long periods (over thousands of years). Other L4/L5 points, like those of Earth and Saturn, are mostly empty due to perturbations from other bodies (especially Jupiter). Jupiter's got a bunch of Trojan asteroids; Earth doesn't.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

vidar

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 607
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #41 on: 02 June 2017, 09:24:08 »
Silly me I was only thinking of L4 and L5 being the more stable and therefore more useful as jump targets ;D. Forgot how much the massive planets interfered.  Thanks Cray.

cray

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5983
  • How's it sit? Pretty cunning, don't you think?
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #42 on: 02 June 2017, 09:40:35 »
Silly me I was only thinking of L4 and L5 being the more stable and therefore more useful as jump targets ;D. Forgot how much the massive planets interfered.  Thanks Cray.

It's not just the big planets. As noted in StratOps p134 (and real physics), the L2, L3, L4, and L5 points are products of both gravity and centripetal force.

For example, the Earth-Luna L2 and L3 points have both Luna and Earth on one side of each point, with gravity adding up to pull in one direction only. That makes L2 and L3 points utterly unsuited to jump drives - the gravity is higher, not smaller. L2 and L3 are useful points for satellite orbits because there's also a centripetal factor that balances the gravity, but jump drives don't care about or even sense the centripetal force.

L4 and L5 likewise don't see gravity being nullified in a way that suits jump drives. You've got two bodies pulling in different directions and centripetal force pulling another way.

L1 points - or a place near them - is where gravity pulls in exactly opposite directions and reaches a minimum suited for jump drives.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8004
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #43 on: 03 June 2017, 05:04:38 »
It's possible for something to go into an orbit near the L1 point, right?

And I just realized that here are two advantages to jumping from L1 to L1, ability to charge higher rates and lower fuel usage.

And I'll repeat that the original thrust of my inquiry was more along the line of why aren't these the default points?

Cryhavok101

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1842
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #44 on: 03 June 2017, 07:43:59 »
If I had to guess, I would say: Paranoia about jumping into another JumpShip. L1 Points a are a lot smaller than z and N points. They would be able to fit lots of jump ships in them, but they are still a lot smaller, and you don't really know if there is another JumpShip right where you are targeting or not, until you try to jump there. With zenith and nadir points you can be as far away from the actual exact point as you want, as long as you not getting closer to the system, so the odds of jumping into another JumpShip are far lower than the odds are at an L1 point, or lower than they would be if the L1 Point was the standard use jump point. Those odds might be astronomically low in both cases, but one is gonna have a lot more decimal places than the other.

cray

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5983
  • How's it sit? Pretty cunning, don't you think?
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #45 on: 03 June 2017, 08:05:40 »
It's possible for something to go into an orbit near the L1 point, right?

Sure. You scoot from the jump point to the actual L1 point and enter a halo or Lissajous orbit.

Quote
And I'll repeat that the original thrust of my inquiry was more along the line of why aren't these the default points?

Much worse target numbers to pull off the jumps due to the jump point's more complicated motions and numerous gravitational influences that aren't present at standard jump points. Further, pirate points are down in the plane of the ecliptic with more debris passing through the points. The L1 pirate point might not accumulate debris, but it is dustier there. Both "DropShips & JumpShips" and "Strategic Operations" discuss the value of standard jump points, and the rules encode their ease of use.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Charistoph

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1310
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #46 on: 03 June 2017, 18:52:36 »
This is why having up to date astrological data is very important on a system; Nadir and Zenith points are easier to calculate as they're relatively free of any astrological body's gravitational well for most parts. Pirate points are harder to calculate beyond the fixed ones which are usually already covered well enough.
Exactly.  Just a minor miscalculation or a twitch of power in the Core when initiating a Jump that would have been safe on a Z/N point, could be catastrophic in the relatively small area that any Pirate Point would provide.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

haesslich

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 849
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #47 on: 04 June 2017, 01:57:00 »
I don't know about you, but after several centuries of warfare and about six hundred years of people invading planets, I'd ban any pirate point use for civilian ships or non-emergency military transport. With Zenith and Nadir jump points, I can theoretically secure the system better by assuming  any arrivals or departures outside of that area are for non-friendly reasons. Legitimate traffic may take longer to get into system, but it also simplifies procedures if I can declare 'assume hostile intents for any non Z/N traffic'.

Usually the difference in transport time isn't too significant for the passengers in transit, and cargo can be offloaded at space stations closer to the jump point, so as not to waste the jumpship's precious time. Space transportation in BT assumes that the jumpships are basically the large seafaring vessels which go into the deep ocean while dropships are basically the cutters or small skiffs  that work the rivers and coastlines.  You don't want that super tanker or multi-billion ton bulk carrier sitting in dock for months while waiting for all the cargo to be assembled at port. You want the stuff loaded and unloaded ASAP so you can keep making money.

The jumpship doesn't really care about the dropships it carries once they arrive at the destination system, at least for regular civilian traffic. Jumpships are basically interchangeable, unless you're transporting a military unit whose Jumpships are integrated into the TO&E, and even then they're only attached in the sense that they're there to take the dropships to their next destination, while cargo or passenger dropships for care which Jumpship they hook up to, as long as it's going to their destination.

Do you care about which specific plane you board at the airport (right down to the serial number) as long as it's flying where you want to go and has you luggage on it, as long as your fare is paid?

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9762
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #48 on: 05 June 2017, 00:13:30 »
Of course, we've never been told how JumpShips avoid jump accidents at the standard jump points. I always assumed they probably drop a bit closer to the star, just below the proximity limit, to recharge and use their station keeping drives to nudge them back over the proximity threshold before they jump out again. Safe distance from other ships jumping out is 20 kilometers, and 2 kilometers from other ships jumping in.
this may not be far off..
IIRC a jumpship cannot be under drive when deploying or retracting its sail, to avoid the lines snarling. given that deploying the sail likely takes a fair bit of time, the ship would be drifting towards the star that whole time.

so if you plot your emergence 'high' in the jump point zone and drift down towards the star* by the time you have your sail deployed you should be fairly well clear of the emergence point you used. then just let her drift down a bit more till you're near the bottom of the point before you kick in the station keeping drive, and maneuver into a holding pattern away from any other ships.

when you leave, you don't absolutely have to climb higher, though i suspect that many ships start climbing a bit before refurling the sail so that they have upward momentum while their drive is off, just to be sure that they are clear of any possible interactions.

*to paraphrase Ender's Game.. The Star is always down.
« Last Edit: 05 June 2017, 00:18:59 by glitterboy2098 »

cray

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5983
  • How's it sit? Pretty cunning, don't you think?
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #49 on: 05 June 2017, 15:11:23 »
so if you plot your emergence 'high' in the jump point zone and drift down towards the star* by the time you have your sail deployed you should be fairly well clear of the emergence point you used. then just let her drift down a bit more till you're near the bottom of the point before you kick in the station keeping drive, and maneuver into a holding pattern away from any other ships.

The standard traffic avoidance procedure is to burn inside the proximity limit, so recharging JumpShips cannot possibly have another JumpShip appear atop them. Likewise, recharge stations and other jump point stations hide just inside the proximity limit.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

monbvol

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11152
  • Flogging will continue until morale improves
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #50 on: 06 June 2017, 19:59:20 »
Aside from the increased probability of objects obscuring the jump sail I seem to remember that you'd have to dial down the power coming through the jump sail that close in or it would lead to having to make quick charge rolls.  So the time savings for the Dropships actually would not be that much better.

Add in jumpships would almost certainly have to burn more fuel to stay near the L1 point versus z/n and I'm not seeing enough economic benefit when taking into all the other aforementioned factors pointed out in other posts.

Also need to consider what doing this would demand in terms of jumpships:dropships ratios.  If a jump ship is still having to sit there a week but the transit time is a day at most?  What do you do as a Dropship captain?  Transiting out to the z/n point may cost more fuel but it probably beats having to pay for 5 days of spaceport docking fees or your crew getting into trouble on shore leave.  Unless jumpships suddenly massively out number dropships.  Then you could arrange to hitch a ride on another ship that's closer to being charged but since we're told explicitly that dropships outnumber jumpships this is not an option.

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #51 on: 06 June 2017, 20:14:38 »
I imagine that for the DropShip owner/captain, the order of business *is* hanging out at the recharge station and waiting for a passing JumpShip going in your direction to have space available for sale.  When a JumpShip arrives, some number (perhaps zero, but often more than that) of DropShips will be detaching and heading down for the planet. JumpShips will be quite eager to sell passage on their now-empty docking collar(s) for their next jump.  They'll assuredly be soliciting nearby DropShips so long as they have any empty docking collar(s).

I don't think a large percentage of docking collar traffic is prebooked, but in those cases the DropShip will be departing the planet so that their transit puts them at the scheduled jump point some 3 or 4 days after the anticipated rendesvous.  As I opined upthread, JumpShips can't feasibly be held to a rigid schedule like some train.  The rendeszous is "on or about" some day, and if you show up 3 or 4 days after that, the JumpShip "should" be there by then.  If not, you can think about hitching a ride with some other JumpShip currently recharging at the jump point.  And if your pre-booked JumpShip arrives right on time without any delays, well your prior booking "should" hold your docking collar open while you're in the last leg of your transit in approach to the jump point.   Sure, some unscrupulous JumpShip captain might take some sleazy DropShip captain's better offer than the pre-booked arrangement you have... but your being inbound and the JumpShip needing to spend time anyway to recharge should hold your docking collar agreement the vast majority of the time.  What JumpShip captain wants to deal with hearing a jilted DropShip captain badmouthing him for the remainder of the recharge period over the open radio channels?
« Last Edit: 06 June 2017, 20:16:23 by Tai Dai Cultist »

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8004
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #52 on: 07 June 2017, 06:15:06 »
Aside from the increased probability of objects obscuring the jump sail I seem to remember that you'd have to dial down the power coming through the jump sail that close in or it would lead to having to make quick charge rolls.  So the time savings for the Dropships actually would not be that much better.
It would all balance out, while the sail being obscured is slightly more likely the massive increase in incoming energy means that as long as something like 1% isn't in somethings shadow you're still good.

Add in jumpships would almost certainly have to burn more fuel to stay near the L1 point versus z/n and I'm not seeing enough economic benefit when taking into all the other aforementioned factors pointed out in other posts.
Pretty sure you can enter a short term orbit near the L1 point, meaning fuel (When done for real and not just for game reasons) would actually go down.

Also need to consider what doing this would demand in terms of jumpships:dropships ratios.  If a jump ship is still having to sit there a week but the transit time is a day at most?  What do you do as a Dropship captain?  Transiting out to the z/n point may cost more fuel but it probably beats having to pay for 5 days of spaceport docking fees or your crew getting into trouble on shore leave.  Unless jumpships suddenly massively out number dropships.  Then you could arrange to hitch a ride on another ship that's closer to being charged but since we're told explicitly that dropships outnumber jumpships this is not an option.
How quickly is your ship unloaded? And you can still sit around in orbit. And you wouldn't need more JS then DS, just increased rate of jumps from a given system

Cryhavok101

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1842
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #53 on: 07 June 2017, 07:46:52 »
How quickly is your ship unloaded?

Assuming it is being done by a 90 ton WorkMech and a heavy cargo platform, it gets moved at a rate of 7 tons per minute, or ~119 hours for 50,000 tons. Smaller dropships are likely to only take a day or two, possibly only a few hours even. I'm assuming Mammoths aren't the most common cargo dropship anyway.

Archangel

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5618
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #54 on: 07 June 2017, 10:05:26 »
How quickly is your ship unloaded? And you can still sit around in orbit. And you wouldn't need more JS then DS, just increased rate of jumps from a given system

Depends upon how much of the ship's cargo is being unloaded (not all cargo DropShips deliver/pick up cargo from a single planet) and how well-trained/experienced and equipped the DropShip's crew and spaceport workers are (that is assuming there is a local spaceport and if there is one that it has workers to help load/unload DropShips).
Detect evil first, smite second and ask questions later.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 36945
  • Carpe Arcanum Cibum
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #55 on: 07 June 2017, 10:28:08 »
It would all balance out, while the sail being obscured is slightly more likely the massive increase in incoming energy means that as long as something like 1% isn't in somethings shadow you're still good.

Melting your drive core with that massive increase in energy does not fall under 'still good'. You'd have to dial down the power feed into your K-F drive to avoid damaging it. Probably still get a boost because the max safe rate is sill higher than what most stars give you out at the proximity limit, but you're not likely to charge all that much faster than normal.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

monbvol

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11152
  • Flogging will continue until morale improves
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #56 on: 07 June 2017, 11:56:34 »
Assuming that nothing impairs the sail the recharge time can be 175 hours without making a roll or risking damage.

That can be cut down to 150 with a +0 modifier to the roll.

Using the 7 tons/minute figure for cargo unloading and the Mule as a reasonably common cargo Dropship let's say it takes the full 24 hours for unloading and a further 24 hours to load a new cargo thanks to customs inspections, other red tape, and to call the couple of hours to get from and to the Sol-Terra L1 point accounted for since that is the only L1 point we have transit times for.

That is 102-127 hours where the Dropship is still waiting for a ride anyway.  Unless there are more Jumpships than Dropships this does mean you are not actually transporting goods that much faster.  If there are not then the economic benefit simply is not worth it as even if they can avoid docking fees I am rather certain due to the increased risks of using the L1 point a Jumpship would charge more than what it would cost in fuel to go to the proximity limit anyway.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8004
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #57 on: 08 June 2017, 04:08:22 »
Melting your drive core with that massive increase in energy does not fall under 'still good'. You'd have to dial down the power feed into your K-F drive to avoid damaging it. Probably still get a boost because the max safe rate is sill higher than what most stars give you out at the proximity limit, but you're not likely to charge all that much faster than normal.
My point was that unless the sail is COMPLETELY obscured a JS this close to a star won't have it's charge time affected.

Assuming that nothing impairs the sail the recharge time can be 175 hours without making a roll or risking damage.

That can be cut down to 150 with a +0 modifier to the roll.

Using the 7 tons/minute figure for cargo unloading and the Mule as a reasonably common cargo Dropship let's say it takes the full 24 hours for unloading and a further 24 hours to load a new cargo thanks to customs inspections, other red tape, and to call the couple of hours to get from and to the Sol-Terra L1 point accounted for since that is the only L1 point we have transit times for.

That is 102-127 hours where the Dropship is still waiting for a ride anyway.  Unless there are more Jumpships than Dropships this does mean you are not actually transporting goods that much faster.  If there are not then the economic benefit simply is not worth it as even if they can avoid docking fees I am rather certain due to the increased risks of using the L1 point a Jumpship would charge more than what it would cost in fuel to go to the proximity limit anyway.
I'm not assuming you leave on the same JS you come in on, I figure that with the up rated numbers there would be a different one waiting for DS to transport.

monbvol

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11152
  • Flogging will continue until morale improves
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #58 on: 08 June 2017, 11:50:01 »
That's the part that requires more Jumpships to exist than Dropships if you want to get below 150 hours.

Cryhavok101

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1842
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #59 on: 08 June 2017, 11:57:19 »
That's the part that requires more Jumpships to exist than Dropships if you want to get below 150 hours.

Could you explain that more? I don't understand where you are getting that from.

monbvol

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11152
  • Flogging will continue until morale improves
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #60 on: 08 June 2017, 12:35:03 »
From my reading of the rules no matter the source of the charge for the jump anything faster than 175 hours is a quick charge and down to 150 has no modifiers to the roll, so it should be reasonably safe.

So if you want to sustain anything faster than that it requires two or more Jumpships so that some are already in the process of charging.  The only way to ensure this happens so that the Dropships still are not waiting and thus make using the L1 the norm is to have more Jumpships in working order than Dropships.  Anything else makes it a gamble.  One that will fail far more often than not with what we're told the ratio of Jumpships to Dropships are.

Cryhavok101

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1842
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #61 on: 08 June 2017, 13:01:19 »
If each jumpship is carrying more than one dropship, you wouldn't need more jumpships than dropships.

monbvol

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11152
  • Flogging will continue until morale improves
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #62 on: 08 June 2017, 14:00:57 »
Only if enough systems in the trade network need and generate enough trade goods that multiple Dropships are required.  Since most don't the limiting factor becomes less about the number of available collars and more about charge time versus transit time.

Ultimately though I just do not see the economic benefit to making the L1 the default.  Jumpships would have to charge more for the increased risk and fuel is cheap.  I also do not think there would be enough reduced maintenance of the Dropships for the reduced transit times to make up for the increased jump fees.

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 23565
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #63 on: 08 June 2017, 18:39:11 »
Quote from: Cryhavok101
Could you explain that more? I don't understand where you are getting that from.

DropShip wants to go from A to C, via B, as quickly as possible.

DS links up to fully charged JumpShip X in system A, jumps to System B. JumpShip Y is sitting at System B, fully charged. DS moves from X to Y, which then immediately jumps to System C. With correct planning & coordination, you can "double-jump" and get to C in a couple of days - mainly time spent by the DS moving from surface to jump point, & vice versa.

Which is called in the literature "Pony Express"; a chain of pre-positioned and pre-charged JumpShips waiting to move a valuable cargo (new commanding general, super-secret sealed orders, or child brides) quickly over long distances. Having all the required JumpShips tied up - time spent being moved into position, and sitting around waiting - makes this expensive and disruptive to normal merchant shipping, and is usually the perogative of a Great House.

W.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Cryhavok101

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1842
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #64 on: 08 June 2017, 19:15:57 »
DropShip wants to go from A to C, via B, as quickly as possible.

DS links up to fully charged JumpShip X in system A, jumps to System B. JumpShip Y is sitting at System B, fully charged. DS moves from X to Y, which then immediately jumps to System C. With correct planning & coordination, you can "double-jump" and get to C in a couple of days - mainly time spent by the DS moving from surface to jump point, & vice versa.

Which is called in the literature "Pony Express"; a chain of pre-positioned and pre-charged JumpShips waiting to move a valuable cargo (new commanding general, super-secret sealed orders, or child brides) quickly over long distances. Having all the required JumpShips tied up - time spent being moved into position, and sitting around waiting - makes this expensive and disruptive to normal merchant shipping, and is usually the perogative of a Great House.

W.

I understand that. The part I don't understand is it taking more JumpShips than dropships. That is like saying that our historical pony express took more horses than it did mail. In your scenario every JumpShip is basically jumping back and forth between two systems, it can be carrying dropships both ways. The long the chain, the more dropships could be making use of it. Say you had a chain of 10 jump ships, each able to carry 3 dropships. There will always be 30 or more dropships moving around that chain in a cycle. I really don't understand how it ever equates to "needs more JumpShips than dropships" unless the whole chain is only being used by one set of dropships. I mean if you used a chain of JumpShips like that to only move one DropShip the distance, sure it would be a waste (baring military or political necessity of course), but I see nothing saying it needs to be wasted that badly.

You certainly wouldn't use that method to send DropShips places that doesn't need that kind of traffic, but the only way it would "take more JumpShips than DropShips" is if you don't fill up the JumpShips on every jump they make. Other than lack of needed traffic, I see no reason not to fill the JumpShips. At least as I understand it. If I am wrong, please educate me.

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #65 on: 08 June 2017, 19:28:53 »
I understand that. The part I don't understand is it taking more JumpShips than dropships. That is like saying that our historical pony express took more horses than it did mail. In your scenario every JumpShip is basically jumping back and forth between two systems, it can be carrying dropships both ways. The long the chain, the more dropships could be making use of it. Say you had a chain of 10 jump ships, each able to carry 3 dropships. There will always be 30 or more dropships moving around that chain in a cycle. I really don't understand how it ever equates to "needs more JumpShips than dropships" unless the whole chain is only being used by one set of dropships. I mean if you used a chain of JumpShips like that to only move one DropShip the distance, sure it would be a waste (baring military or political necessity of course), but I see nothing saying it needs to be wasted that badly.

You certainly wouldn't use that method to send DropShips places that doesn't need that kind of traffic, but the only way it would "take more JumpShips than DropShips" is if you don't fill up the JumpShips on every jump they make. Other than lack of needed traffic, I see no reason not to fill the JumpShips. At least as I understand it. If I am wrong, please educate me.

You might be down in the weeds and focusing on the "what" and losing it in the relevance of the "why".  I think what you appear to be missing is that monbvol is saying that he's saying L1 isn't any more economically viable than Z/N.

I'll risk putting words in his mouth, and add in that given the factors cited upthread (by myself and others) that there just isn't good reason for pirate points (such as L1s)  to take over as "standard" jump points in a system rather than the conventionally standard jump points of Z/N.
« Last Edit: 08 June 2017, 19:30:40 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21062
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #66 on: 08 June 2017, 19:30:51 »
"Pony Express"?  I thought that was called a "command circuit" in universe...

Cryhavok101

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1842
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #67 on: 08 June 2017, 19:35:25 »
You might be down in the weeds and focusing on the "what" and losing it in the relevance of the "why".  I think what you appear to be missing is that monbvol is saying that he's saying L1 isn't any more economically viable than Z/N.

I'll risk putting words in his mouth, and add in that given the factors cited upthread (by myself and others) that there just isn't good reason for pirate points (such as L1s)  to take over as "standard" jump points in a system rather than the conventionally standard jump points of Z/N.

Well I agree with you on that. I just don't understand the "takes more JumpShips than DropShips" comment.

monbvol

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11152
  • Flogging will continue until morale improves
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #68 on: 08 June 2017, 20:00:21 »
I understand that. The part I don't understand is it taking more JumpShips than dropships. That is like saying that our historical pony express took more horses than it did mail. In your scenario every JumpShip is basically jumping back and forth between two systems, it can be carrying dropships both ways. The long the chain, the more dropships could be making use of it. Say you had a chain of 10 jump ships, each able to carry 3 dropships. There will always be 30 or more dropships moving around that chain in a cycle. I really don't understand how it ever equates to "needs more JumpShips than dropships" unless the whole chain is only being used by one set of dropships. I mean if you used a chain of JumpShips like that to only move one DropShip the distance, sure it would be a waste (baring military or political necessity of course), but I see nothing saying it needs to be wasted that badly.

You certainly wouldn't use that method to send DropShips places that doesn't need that kind of traffic, but the only way it would "take more JumpShips than DropShips" is if you don't fill up the JumpShips on every jump they make. Other than lack of needed traffic, I see no reason not to fill the JumpShips. At least as I understand it. If I am wrong, please educate me.

You might be down in the weeds and focusing on the "what" and losing it in the relevance of the "why".  I think what you appear to be missing is that monbvol is saying that he's saying L1 isn't any more economically viable than Z/N.

I'll risk putting words in his mouth, and add in that given the factors cited upthread (by myself and others) that there just isn't good reason for pirate points (such as L1s)  to take over as "standard" jump points in a system rather than the conventionally standard jump points of Z/N.

Now to be fair I am almost certainly wrong about using L1 as the default requiring more Jumpships than Dropships.  For it to work though certainly requires a far more favorable Jumpship to Dropship ratio.

There are a lot of variables to consider to figure out where that would finally end up.

Still yes, with fuel being basically free and maintenance such a low value as well I just see it not being profitable for the Dropship Captain for the L1 point to be the default.

Now as a special case where a client needs/desires something in a hurry, then yeah I can see the odd special request.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8004
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #69 on: 08 June 2017, 22:43:10 »
monbvol seems to have a different view of the amount of JS traffic that a system sees, chiefly little to none. While we seem to be assuming that there is more then JS visiting a system at once, he isn't.

monbvol

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11152
  • Flogging will continue until morale improves
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #70 on: 08 June 2017, 22:53:23 »
Which is what the fluff seems to support outside of some rather rare special cases.  At least when you consider how many inhabited planets there are.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8004
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #71 on: 09 June 2017, 00:49:51 »
StratOps says that previous estimates of the number of DS and JS are low by at least an order of magnitude in older sources, the IS is something like 1,000 worlds, taking the lowball of 20,000 JS, that means there should be an average of 20 JS in a system at any one time.

VhenRa

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2103
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #72 on: 09 June 2017, 03:32:10 »
Pretty sure the IS is closer to 2,000 worlds.

Archangel

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5618
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #73 on: 09 June 2017, 07:42:47 »
I'm sure that after the Jihad the number of JumpShips was significantly reduced.  That said the IS has as many or as few as the story needs.  TPTB are never going to give an exact (or even close to exact) answer to avoid painting themselves in a corner.  If they did then somebody is sure to say that it conflicts with this story or that story.

As far as command circuits are concerned, they are almost always comprised of military JumpShips which wouldn't carry civilian DropShips during normal operations anyways.  In an emergency civilian JumpShips might be commandeered to form part of a temporary command circuit.  In such a case, the civilian JumpShip would be required to follow military orders until their release and their crews might even be replaced by a military crew.  After playing their part they might be released to go about their business or, if during a conflict like the 4SW or War of 3039, they might be assigned to other duties, ferrying troops or supplies, etc.
Detect evil first, smite second and ask questions later.

Vition2

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 854
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #74 on: 09 June 2017, 09:41:06 »
I'm sure that after the Jihad the number of JumpShips was significantly reduced.

I actually suspect the opposite is more accurate.  While JumpShips were more frequently targeted than in the past there weren't any particular pogroms against them (iirc) - the amount lost is likely comparatively insignificant.  In addition the transferal of assets from clan space to the Sphere by the Falcons, Wolves, Foxes, Horses and Ravens likely suggests a massive influx of JumpShips to their areas - though availability for trading may be much more limited. 

Re: Average of 20 JS per station
As VhenRa mentioned, the IS is closer to 2k worlds, and if I remember the couple of times I've actually counted them, just the major houses and the clans add up to somewhere around 2,200 worlds, with another 2-300 named in the near periphery realms.  This puts the number closer to 10 per world, and reasonably many of these are going to be using routes along the higher trade areas with much fewer outside these.  Places in the Fed Sun's outback may still only see a single jumpship every month or so.

Tai Dai Cultist

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7127
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #75 on: 09 June 2017, 09:54:22 »
I seriously doubt we'll ever see any canonical tidbit that will enable us to confirm or deny it, but I rather like the benchmark of ~10 Jumpships being present on average in any given system... of course skewing more than that at important worlds and at worlds on the trade routes near important worlds... and skewing less in economically and politically unimportant places.

It jives pretty well with my other presupposition that DropShips routinely head to a Z/N transit point even if they don't have a pre-booked travel arrangement, trusting that opportunity will be there to negotiate passage on whatever JumpShip is going their way.

monbvol

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11152
  • Flogging will continue until morale improves
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #76 on: 09 June 2017, 11:34:45 »
Yet we have a great many systems that only see a Jumpship once a month, maybe one a week in the fluff.

Also there seem to be a good portion that are tied full time to mercenary and house commands that do no commercial work at all.

Now all that said there are certainly clusters that get more.  I've done the math using zneith/nadir points, transit times, and to minimize number of ships involved assumed the biggest dropships possible to see what it would take to make some stated trade routes work as described in fluff.  I can't remember the last one I did but to do as described in fluff it would take well over 100 Jumpships at minimum to do what was described.

Still even if there were 10 Jumpships per system and were distributed in such a manner that there were 10 Jumpships per system it still doesn't change the fact that using the L1 point as the default for commercial traffic just does not make economic sense.  Jumpships would still have to charge more as there is more risk jumping into the L1 point no matter how many there are.  I can't see this increased jump fee being cheaper than just burning the fuel to get to the zenith/nadir point instead.

SCC

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8004
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #77 on: 09 June 2017, 15:32:14 »
Those would be systems like Jesup which are entirely dependent upon imports for things like food, right?

monbvol

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11152
  • Flogging will continue until morale improves
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #78 on: 09 June 2017, 15:37:55 »
I don't think I've done the numbers for Jessup in particular but yes.

cray

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5983
  • How's it sit? Pretty cunning, don't you think?
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #79 on: 09 June 2017, 15:38:34 »
Pretty sure the IS is closer to 2,000 worlds.

Yes, about 2000 in Inner Sphere.

Regarding JumpShip numbers, those were vaguely expanded and more vague-ified in StratOps. The notion, and I'm not sure this is somewhere in print yet, is that they were also heavily produced by the Republic of the Sphere for their population shuffling efforts in the 3080s to 3100s. The end result is that by the 3130s the Inner Sphere has a number of JumpShips equal to "what the plot needs." The plot will still factor in the rarity of JumpShips, but there should be fewer cases where numbers of JumpShips and claimed shipping requirements conflict.

Those would be systems like Jesup which are entirely dependent upon imports for things like food, right?

As discussed in StratOps, those systems are very rare. Most of them died in the Succession Wars.
« Last Edit: 09 June 2017, 15:41:22 by cray »
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

monbvol

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11152
  • Flogging will continue until morale improves
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #80 on: 09 June 2017, 15:44:12 »
Which is compatible with the idea that Jumpships operate in clusters with most worlds not seeing regular commercial traffic that other fluff supports.

idea weenie

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2986
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #81 on: 09 June 2017, 19:25:13 »
My point was that unless the sail is COMPLETELY obscured a JS this close to a star won't have it's charge time affected.

One potential concern about having the jump sail that close to the star is that it will be receiving 100* the amount of energy per square meter.  So the recharging sail will have to be put at an angle to prevent it from being burned out.  If my geometry is correct, you'd want a tangent of 100 (or .01) making it an angle of 89.4 degrees or almost edge on to the local star.

Archangel

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5618
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #82 on: 10 June 2017, 01:46:55 »
I actually suspect the opposite is more accurate.  While JumpShips were more frequently targeted than in the past there weren't any particular pogroms against them (iirc) - the amount lost is likely comparatively insignificant.  In addition the transferal of assets from clan space to the Sphere by the Falcons, Wolves, Foxes, Horses and Ravens likely suggests a massive influx of JumpShips to their areas - though availability for trading may be much more limited. 

Actually there was albeit part of the Word of Blake's general plan to sow chaos and fear by disrupting trade and communication not to mention every faction's attempts to interdict enemy troop movements.  One also needs to remember that several key shipyards were damaged if not destroyed completely (including Galax, Alarion and Necromo) crippling the production of new JumpShips.  The number of JumpShips brought in from the Clan Homeworlds likely only made up a fraction of what was lost.  It certainly didn't help that many of their JumpShips were destroyed before they even left the Clan Homeworlds including a large convoy of Shark JumpShips.
Detect evil first, smite second and ask questions later.

Vition2

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 854
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #83 on: 10 June 2017, 09:35:52 »
Actually there was albeit part of the Word of Blake's general plan to sow chaos and fear by disrupting trade and communication not to mention every faction's attempts to interdict enemy troop movements.  One also needs to remember that several key shipyards were damaged if not destroyed completely (including Galax, Alarion and Necromo) crippling the production of new JumpShips.  The number of JumpShips brought in from the Clan Homeworlds likely only made up a fraction of what was lost.  It certainly didn't help that many of their JumpShips were destroyed before they even left the Clan Homeworlds including a large convoy of Shark JumpShips.

To the first point, it seems that most of the disruption of trade was focused on military trade and was heavily focused on actually destroying/controlling production centers rather than destroying jumpships - though I do not have my books on hand so will have to verify/annul that part later.  I do feel the need to mention that the destruction of warship/jumpship yards doesn't mean that jumpships were specifically targeted - each of the three shipyards you mention as being destroyed were very specifically able to build warships, making them fall into the military target category.

To the second, that convoy was a Raven convoy, a small number of Shark jumpships were included.  It was also the third such convoy, and though it was the stated to be the largest (and last) of the three, the mention of it being nearly 100 or more than 100 jumpships (with a star of warships) leaves a large range of possibilities for the other two Raven convoys.  The other clan convoys didn't get much mention, but almost all of them had quite a year or two more time to move than the Ravens as they were the snakes' first real target.  (Edit: oops, I keep forgetting that the Sharks lost a large convoy in route to the OZs to the Burrocks)

Archangel

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5618
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #84 on: 14 June 2017, 04:04:03 »
To the first point, it seems that most of the disruption of trade was focused on military trade and was heavily focused on actually destroying/controlling production centers rather than destroying jumpships - though I do not have my books on hand so will have to verify/annul that part later.

How did the Great Houses traditionally make up shortages of military JumpShips?  By conscripting civilian JumpShips which not only disrupts trade but turns the civilian Jumpships into military targets. 

And while the Blakists did focus their efforts on military targets, they didn't neglect civilian targets as this quote from Jihad Final Reckoning (p82) attests.

Quote
Interstellar production of transportation, communications, luxuries, and even basic necessities were smashed on a great many worlds, sometimes by accident but just as often as part of a deliberate strategy to undermine the anti-Blakist forces by burdening them with a further-diminished civil support. When you are facing collapsing infrastructure, millions of deaths and probably millions more displaced citizens, it becomes a tough call to choose between pursuing the villains who created the situation, or saving as many failing systems as you can to minimize the losses.

And that only accounts for the JumpShips destroyed by the Word of Blake.  One cannot discount the large numbers of JumpShips of both Blakist and non-Blakist origin destroyed by other IS powers and various Clans (ex: Black Dragons destroyed numerous Nova Cat JumpShips, AFFS destroying CCAF and Taurian JumpShips and vice versa, Regulan targeting all Blakist assets including JumpShips, etc).

Quote
I do feel the need to mention that the destruction of warship/jumpship yards doesn't mean that jumpships were specifically targeted - each of the three shipyards you mention as being destroyed were very specifically able to build warships, making them fall into the military target category.

You missed my point entirely.  With the destruction of several key shipyards and several other shipyards being heavily damaged/crippled over the course of the Jihad, the ability of the Great Houses to replace JumpShips lost  during the Jihad was severely crippled.  End result:  fewer JumpShips at the end of the Jihad than there would have been if those shipyards hadn't been destroyed/heavily damaged/crippled.

Quote
To the second, that convoy was a Raven convoy, a small number of Shark jumpships were included.  It was also the third such convoy, and though it was the stated to be the largest (and last) of the three, the mention of it being nearly 100 or more than 100 jumpships (with a star of warships) leaves a large range of possibilities for the other two Raven convoys.  The other clan convoys didn't get much mention, but almost all of them had quite a year or two more time to move than the Ravens as they were the snakes' first real target.  (Edit: oops, I keep forgetting that the Sharks lost a large convoy in route to the OZs to the Burrocks)

So where are all these JumpShips?  JFS (p113) clearly implies the Clans are suffering from a shortage of JumpShips which they need to rebuild their infrastructure.

Quote
Given the needs of the Clans to rebuild their infrastructure it can be safely assumed that their naval construction—like that of the Inner Sphere—will be devoted to JumpShips rather than WarShips for the foreseeable future.

This quote (JFS, p113) clearly implies that the Falcons are suffering from a shortage of JumpShips.

Quote
...Olivetti Weapons has been starved of resources to build its ’Mechs by ongoing rebellions and a lack of JumpShips.
Detect evil first, smite second and ask questions later.

dragonkid11

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 328
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #85 on: 25 July 2017, 20:58:36 »
One probably stupid question.

It's possible to detect a Jumpship jumping in based on its emergence signal.

But it's absolutely not possible to detect where a Jumpship has jumped out of a system, right?
On behalf of the Berserker,
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Salvage Dog AU SI Fanfic Thread
Salvage Dog AU Tech Compilation Thread
Salvage Dog AU Battlemech Thread

monbvol

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11152
  • Flogging will continue until morale improves
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #86 on: 25 July 2017, 23:11:37 »
My memory on that is a bit foggy.  But I do want to say that you pretty much have to be so close to detect a ship jumping out it doesn't really matter by that point.

cray

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5983
  • How's it sit? Pretty cunning, don't you think?
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #87 on: 26 July 2017, 16:28:43 »
One probably stupid question.

It's possible to detect a Jumpship jumping in based on its emergence signal.

But it's absolutely not possible to detect where a Jumpship has jumped out of a system, right?

The intent of jump signal detection is that departing ships make the same ripples in space that are so distinctive about an arriving ship. However, I think the rules tend to emphasize arrivals.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

dragonkid11

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 328
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #88 on: 26 July 2017, 18:57:52 »
I think i worded my question wrong...

What I meant to ask is it's not possible to detect which system did a jumpship jumped into when escaping from hostile forces, from the perspective of a hostile force, right?
On behalf of the Berserker,
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Salvage Dog AU SI Fanfic Thread
Salvage Dog AU Tech Compilation Thread
Salvage Dog AU Battlemech Thread

cray

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5983
  • How's it sit? Pretty cunning, don't you think?
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #89 on: 26 July 2017, 19:05:56 »
What I meant to ask is it's not possible to detect which system did a jumpship jumped into when escaping from hostile forces, from the perspective of a hostile force, right?

Correct. The only data delivered by a JumpShip's arrival/departure signature is how long the pulse lasts, which is a factor of:

1) How many docking collars it has
2) How far the jump is

If the type of ship is known and the length of pulse known, then you can guess how far it jumped. Check a map and look at possible destinations at that range. It's usually, but not always, a safe assumption to ignore the thousands of uninhabitable systems within a jump's range and focus on the inhabited ones.

However, even if there's a single possible destination star system, then you don't know which jump point (zenith, nadir, an infinite range of pirate points) was the destination. You also don't know where the JumpShip arrived in the target jump point. Zenith and nadir points diffuse into the endless proximity limit points and open interstellar space, so they can easily be millions or tens of millions of kilometers away from the nominal zenith/nadir point. That would easily put a JumpShip beyond any other sensors.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Nebfer

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1378
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #90 on: 28 July 2017, 14:20:13 »
My View on the over all jumpship numbers is to 10x the 3050 numbers of 3,000 (so roughly 30,000) for the great houses, but use the old 3025 numbers of 2,000 as the jumpships available to house militarys.

So on average each of the five houses has about 6,000 jumpships, 2,000 are used by the military
Further brake down of the military ones your going to have some that are active, others are just entering their active phase/ undergoing training and shakedowns post refits and the remaining are entering a refit period. At best one could count on about 1/2 to about 4/5ths of their over all numbers to be able to respond given a few weeks notice., depending on the ratios used. So ~1,000 to ~1600 jumpships for the military at one time of which they are needed for troop transport (tactical), cargo & personnel transport (strategic), naval escort, naval patrols, customs duty and so on.

Currently im viewing a 3 year active duty, then a ~6 month refit followed by about 6 months of training & workups, with many crews fulfilling their 5 year (basic) enlistments during this period, being ~2 years training followed by a 3 year tour of duty, with the last 6ish months of their training being on the ship in it's working up phase.

These numbers do not include Mercenary, Comstar, the minor houses nor the Clans.

All told perhaps at most some 45,000 jumpships.

Though It should be stated that even Civilian ships are going to have a fair number of ships not in active use, though far fewer and with less down time, perhaps going as far as having two crews to minimize downtime to crew needs.

JonyWest

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #91 on: 02 April 2021, 09:39:05 »
A Lagrange point is a place in space where the combined gravitational forces of two very massive bodies-the Earth and the Sun, or the Earth and the Moon-are equal to the centrifugal force felt by a much smaller third body. The interaction of these forces creates a point of equilibrium where a simulated spacecraft can be permanently "parked" for observations. And there is a satellite — if we launch it too close to the Sun, then gradually gravity will pull it towards the star, and it will either crash into it or enter the solar orbit. The same thing happens with jumping and extreme tourism. To build a trail gear list for you, you need to know all the points on earth where you would go to make this journey safe. I do not think that it is possible to achieve this on earth, but as for the moon and the earth - if the gravity is strong enough, then once between these objects, you can "freeze" in place in the air. Fantasy
« Last Edit: 03 April 2021, 12:17:17 by Bedwyr »

cray

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5983
  • How's it sit? Pretty cunning, don't you think?
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #92 on: 02 April 2021, 12:19:39 »
I hope when moderators shut down JonyWest that they leave his spam on this thread because that is an epic, tailored, almost on-topic post.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21062
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #93 on: 02 April 2021, 16:17:28 »
It's scary how smart the bots are getting...  :o

But yes, that link must DIE!

Bosefius

  • Will Moderate for Hugs
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6414
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #94 on: 03 April 2021, 10:22:13 »
I hope when moderators shut down JonyWest that they leave his spam on this thread because that is an epic, tailored, almost on-topic post.

We did  ;D
Catalyst Demo Agent #221, Huntington, WV

It's times like this I ask myself "What would Jabba the Hutt do?"

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21062
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #95 on: 03 April 2021, 11:26:59 »
Uh... the link is still live??  :o

Bedwyr

  • A Sticky Wicket
  • Global Moderator
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8888
  • RIP. Again. And again. And again.
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #96 on: 03 April 2021, 12:18:39 »
Uh... the link is still live??  :o

Edited to redirect to the Appalachian conservancy. We'll just leave that post there like that bit of swamp at Hogwarts after the whole Umbridge mess. Anyhow, back to the subject at hand.
Alas poor Photobucket. I knew him Horatio, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21062
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #97 on: 03 April 2021, 12:47:23 »
Rog. thanks!  :thumbsup:

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1244
Re: A Couple Of Jump Travel Questions
« Reply #98 on: 03 April 2021, 12:53:22 »
Thanks. Then it is safe to be left behind and sleep forever.

 

Register