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Author Topic: ASF design and Threshhold  (Read 757 times)

Wolf72

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ASF design and Threshhold
« on: 08 June 2021, 17:51:38 »
How important is armor threshold for an ASF location?

In order to beat anything that does 5 dmg you'd need 51 armor per location, or at least 204 points of armor ... at least 13 tons of standard armor (less with FA). 

Trying to beat a Gauss Rifle of cERPPC? ... 604 points, or 38 tons of standard armor (31.5 with clan FA).

Just asking b/c I'm trying to make a flying brick (I mean tank!) and I'm not sure if the TH level is that worth it over more weapons.
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Daryk

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Re: ASF design and Threshhold
« Reply #1 on: 08 June 2021, 18:18:13 »
I'm pretty sure you only need 41 to make a threshold of 5, but your point isn't far off.  It takes a LOT of armor to avoid threshold crits.  I chalk that up to 'mechs being the focus of the game.

Wolf72

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Re: ASF design and Threshhold
« Reply #2 on: 08 June 2021, 19:28:41 »
I'm pretty sure you only need 41 to make a threshold of 5, but your point isn't far off.  It takes a LOT of armor to avoid threshold crits.  I chalk that up to 'mechs being the focus of the game.

oops! ... so you need a number the same or higher? Thought a TH of 5 would still be susceptible to 5 pt hits ... but if not, that helps a bit.
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dgorsman

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Re: ASF design and Threshhold
« Reply #3 on: 08 June 2021, 19:30:10 »
Generally I like to have a threshold which beats 5 points of damage, as it protects against cluster weapons from airborne shooters and LRMs, HAGs, and similar long range weapons from ground fire.  Trying to get higher on all locations is nice but outside of the nose it's rarely worth the effort.
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Jellico

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Re: ASF design and Threshhold
« Reply #4 on: 08 June 2021, 19:33:07 »
AT1 was very much about jamming flight surfaces. So there was a premium on pellets and light ACs.

AT2 streamlined things but tried to simulate the concept with thresholds and piloting rolls after any damage.

As to trying to beat the theshold? Just be sensible. Yes you can over armor an ASF. Realistically you can't cover 15 point weapons from all angles. But there aren't that many of those weapons.

Instead think of what you are facing. Blocks of 5 are the most common. 7 for the Clan mediums. You can ignore 8 because it is rare. Then you have 10 which is fairly common.

So if you are going to build a brick, look at 15 for the nose and 10 for the rest as a starting point.



51 gets a threshold of 6 which protects you from 5 damage.

Wolf72

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Re: ASF design and Threshhold
« Reply #5 on: 08 June 2021, 19:38:18 »
not an ASF person, how dangerous is a TH hit? ... with the 10+ pt weapons (ppc, c LL, ACs, all the rest), it seems the life of an ASF warrior can be very short if your armor only has a TH of say 6 or 8.
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Jellico

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Re: ASF design and Threshhold
« Reply #6 on: 08 June 2021, 21:42:13 »
Armor location of 90 points. Threshold of 9.

Get hit by a 10 point weapon.

Armor takes 10 points of damage. Reduces to 80. (Unless using Tac OP rules the Threshold stays permanently at 9.)

10 > 9 so the Threshold is exceeded. Roll for the usual +8 for a critical hit. Then roll for the item damaged.

Between the 1/3 chance of getting a crit and the duds like "Landing Gear" an ASF can take quite a few crits. Mostly you are hoping for engines, sensors, or crew.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: ASF design and Threshhold
« Reply #7 on: 09 June 2021, 01:36:51 »
Note that it is rounded up, so while 90 points of armor has threshold of 9, 91 points of armor has threshold of 10. Most anti-aero unit has AC/2 or AC/5 so you can live with 41 armor points on each location at least and only fear for the control rolls by struck by an attack, and if you want to withstand Clans Large Pulse Laser(10) you need at least 91 armor points. If you want to withstand a Gauss Rifle hit you need at least 141 points. 191 points or more lets you to withstand an Air-Defense Arrow or Air to Air Arrow missile.

Well, we all know that a struck aero unit is likely to crash, so unless you activate Advanced Atmoshperic Control Rolls(97.SO) that only need to have a control roll if the hit exceeds its damage threshold, a flying brick is less viable. Also because it is too cheesy to run the real brick with 30+tons of armor with this, if you really want to use the optional rule with the brick aero unit you better use it with Variable Damage Thresholds(117.SO), which counts the threshold by the current armor points rather than the default armor points. So your brick may sustain some hits without a control roll, but the sustained hits with heavy hitters makes you tremble(literally).

And I don't understand why an aerospace fighter can put up to 50% of its total mass with the standard armor. Is it a MBT of 21th century?

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Re: ASF design and Threshhold
« Reply #8 on: 09 June 2021, 07:35:55 »
I actually think BattleTech as a whole would be more fun if everything had critical hits due to amor thresholding instead of dice-rolled TACs.
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Re: ASF design and Threshhold
« Reply #9 on: 09 June 2021, 11:47:18 »
I'm pretty sure you only need 41 to make a threshold of 5, but your point isn't far off.  It takes a LOT of armor to avoid threshold crits.  I chalk that up to 'mechs being the focus of the game.

Correct.

164 point or 10.5 tons of armor.  Fine for a Medium but hard for a Light to pull off.




I know when I'm designing customs/refits, I like to do TH #s but its rarely EVERY location.

A big Heavy/Assault sized bird might have a TH level of LL's on the Nose (71),  MPLs or Clan Mediums on the Wings (61), & only ML's on the Aft (41)

234 points or 15 tons is pretty typical I think, matches the Stuka which is a solid standard to aim for.
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