Register Register

Author Topic: ASFs on vacuum ground maps?  (Read 533 times)

Trailblazer

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 614
    • Excaliburs Saga Campaign for MegaMek
ASFs on vacuum ground maps?
« on: 05 May 2022, 09:16:47 »
TacOps tells us that aerospace fighters move like spheroids on ground maps with vacuum atmospheric conditions.  Do they also attack like spheroids, or can they still make strike attacks against ground targets with their wing and nose weapons, for example?

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Global Moderator
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 38640
  • Carpe Arcanum Cibum
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: ASFs on vacuum ground maps?
« Reply #1 on: 05 May 2022, 09:27:17 »
Movement and shooting are not related. Since the role doesn't actually say anything about their attacks being different, it would stay the same as their usual rules.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

pokefan548

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 975
  • The Barracuda knows where it is, hence the -2 mod.
    • Poke's Aerospace Academy (Discord Server)
Re: ASFs on vacuum ground maps?
« Reply #2 on: 05 May 2022, 09:29:19 »
Strictly speaking yes, although the rules aerodyne units on a vacuum ground or low-altitude map aren't really fully developed (you'll find that's the case for several of TO:AR's planetary conditions' effects on aerospace units). Some player adjudication will be necessary to determine if, say, passing over a hex backwards allows you to make a Striking attack with aft weapons, and whether or not those attacks can be performed by a fighter moving laterally.

EDIT:
Movement and shooting are not related. Since the role doesn't actually say anything about their attacks being different, it would stay the same as their usual rules.
I would argue they are in the case of air-to-ground attacks. The two concepts are, in that case, so intimately linked that it necessitates declaring ATG attacks during the Aerospace Movement Phase.
« Last Edit: 05 May 2022, 10:24:16 by pokefan548 »
Poke's Aerospace Academy
The best place to learn and discuss AeroTech.


"Poke is just a figment of our imagination really." - Siam
"Poke isn't a real person, he's just an algorithm programmed by CGL to try and get people to try the aerospace rules." - Phantasm
"I want to plant the meat eating trees and the meat growing trees on the same planet! Watch that plant on plant violence!" - Sawtooth

Trailblazer

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 614
    • Excaliburs Saga Campaign for MegaMek
Re: ASFs on vacuum ground maps?
« Reply #3 on: 05 May 2022, 10:00:11 »
Thanks, this is helpful.  And just to make sure I'm understanding the movement rules correctly, it means that fighters will only be able to move a maximum of 8 ground map hexes in a turn on vacuum ground maps... so their air-to-ground abilities are very badly curtailed, right?  Like a Wolfhound could run away from a Stuka and never get hit, right?

pokefan548

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 975
  • The Barracuda knows where it is, hence the -2 mod.
    • Poke's Aerospace Academy (Discord Server)
Re: ASFs on vacuum ground maps?
« Reply #4 on: 05 May 2022, 10:22:41 »
Thanks, this is helpful.  And just to make sure I'm understanding the movement rules correctly, it means that fighters will only be able to move a maximum of 8 ground map hexes in a turn on vacuum ground maps... so their air-to-ground abilities are very badly curtailed, right?  Like a Wolfhound could run away from a Stuka and never get hit, right?
That is correct. Silver lining, once you make a pass, you can just throw it in reverse and hit the same target over and over with the ol' cheese grater. Can be a bit risky though.

Technically, yeah, fast 'Mechs can outrun you, but on anything but almost entirely flat, clear maps (such as Grasslands #1), the fighter's ability to turn on a dime and ignore terrain will give them a pretty huge advantage. Not a lot of 'Mechs out there with 9 or more Jumping MPs.
« Last Edit: 05 May 2022, 10:27:01 by pokefan548 »
Poke's Aerospace Academy
The best place to learn and discuss AeroTech.


"Poke is just a figment of our imagination really." - Siam
"Poke isn't a real person, he's just an algorithm programmed by CGL to try and get people to try the aerospace rules." - Phantasm
"I want to plant the meat eating trees and the meat growing trees on the same planet! Watch that plant on plant violence!" - Sawtooth

ThePW

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 874
  • One post down, a thousand to go...
Re: ASFs on vacuum ground maps?
« Reply #5 on: 05 May 2022, 11:06:44 »
*tosses some beer cans in the soup, for flavor*

It would help to know exactly where your fighting on, when talking Vacuum atmosphere and Aerospace units on Ground or Low maps because like it was mentioned above, Players or the GM has use some judgement on what basic set of rules you go by. Example, lets say your fighting on the dark side of Mercury... which has not stat'd Gravity or Temp on wiki. (great)

*waves hands like a nut* BAM Gravity is 0.34, Temp is -40c, Atmosphere is Vacuum.

If you want to keep things somewhat simple, Ignore Vacuum damage rules for the Aerospace units (as they are built and designed for pressure and vacuum locales. Hull Breach's would just be... a headache that any Rules Lawyer would take home to show the family his's newest fiancé ("Son What about Whats-her-face from last week?").

Now for the Ground Map rules... Lets say that the ground rules still apply in a Vacuum because Mercury has the tiniest, micro-thin parts per billion particles that hug mercury, for the sake of that +1 when making PSRs in atmosphere rule when an Aero takes successful weapons (from the ground at least) so its still vacuum for ground units/hull breaches but its still low or ground map rules for the fighters...

Is that enough nonsence?  ::)

Nope, Movement. A plane going in one direction just doesn't stop in mid-air, vacuum or pressure. You still need to spend thrust points on pulling a maneuver (whether it physically does the change of elevation, does a loop, the description is the GMs responsibility to explain), again with that whisper thin vacuum atmosphere so you can still follow the Aerospace on Ground Maps rules... because unless your jet does reverse like Hikura going Gerwalk (Macross SDFM:TV) or Roy doing the same (Macross Zero, Ep1), that sounds far too cheese to be allowed because if they can do that, then hell yeah, roll for hull breach on anything Aerospace, just to make it fair...

« Last Edit: 05 May 2022, 11:16:35 by ThePW »

BATTLEMASTER

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1761
  • Lightning From Another Zip Code
Re: ASFs on vacuum ground maps?
« Reply #6 on: 05 May 2022, 12:10:56 »
That is correct. Silver lining, once you make a pass, you can just throw it in reverse and hit the same target over and over with the ol' cheese grater. Can be a bit risky though.

I don't know about that...  I thought sphereoid craft hex movement distance was dependent upon velocity, so it would be 16 hexes per velocity point on the ground map, but it's still different movement from aerodyne movement.

I remember it used to be like that in MegaMek where it was 8 hexes anywhere until there was a rules clarification about how sphereoid craft movement worked on ground maps.

That said, nothing can outrun aerospace anything still unless the aerospace unit is slow to begin with - as in very low safe thrust.
« Last Edit: 05 May 2022, 12:12:59 by BATTLEMASTER »
BATTLEMASTER
Trombone Player, Lego Enthusiast, Engineer
Clan Smoke Jaguar, Delta Galaxy ("The Cloud Rangers"), 4th Jaguar Dragoons
"You better stand back, I'm not sure how loud this thing can get!"
If you like Lego, you'll like my Lego battlemech projects!

pokefan548

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 975
  • The Barracuda knows where it is, hence the -2 mod.
    • Poke's Aerospace Academy (Discord Server)
Re: ASFs on vacuum ground maps?
« Reply #7 on: 05 May 2022, 12:15:26 »
I don't know about that...  I thought sphereoid craft hex movement distance was dependent upon velocity, so it would be 16 hexes per velocity point on the ground map, but it's still different movement from aerodyne movement.

I remember it used to be like that in MegaMek until there was a rules clarification about how sphereoid craft movement worked on ground maps.

That said, nothing can outrun aerospace anything still unless the aerospace unit is slow to begin with - as in very low safe thrust.
Spheroids only have velocity-based movement on the space and high-altitude maps. On the low-altitude and ground maps, they are always at 0 velocity, with an inherent ability to scoot short distances. On the low-altitude map, they can shift one hex, or if memory serves eight hexes on the ground map. Therefore, a 6/9 ground unit running in a straight line on flat, clear terrain could outrun a ground map spheroid and, by extension, an aerodyne operating in vacuum.
Poke's Aerospace Academy
The best place to learn and discuss AeroTech.


"Poke is just a figment of our imagination really." - Siam
"Poke isn't a real person, he's just an algorithm programmed by CGL to try and get people to try the aerospace rules." - Phantasm
"I want to plant the meat eating trees and the meat growing trees on the same planet! Watch that plant on plant violence!" - Sawtooth

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 26362
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: ASFs on vacuum ground maps?
« Reply #8 on: 06 May 2022, 19:26:43 »
This kind of argument is why I favor GM-run games in general.  BattleTech has a LOT of rules, but some edge cases really demand a human to make a decision on how things work...  8)

 

Register