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Author Topic: External stores - why no missiles  (Read 3252 times)

Wolf72

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #30 on: 03 March 2021, 16:31:31 »
iirc the Germans used cannons on their planes, which were very effective.  The Americans use MGs also turned out to be very effective too.

I think I would classify that weapon as an integral system vs. external. 
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Colt Ward

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #31 on: 03 March 2021, 16:37:42 »
 . . . those were light anti-tank guns mounted externally.  The internal guns were mounted in the nose and wing, depending on the plane.  In that picture you can see the control runs and even where it was bolted on the frame as part of it's mounting.
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Wolf72

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #32 on: 03 March 2021, 16:58:19 »
well then ... 20th century weapons technology sneers at your pathetic 26th+ weapons!  :D
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Colt Ward

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #33 on: 03 March 2021, 17:04:16 »
Well . . . the Stukas did not have to re-enter the atmosphere with all those external wires exposed so . . .
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Daryk

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #34 on: 03 March 2021, 19:32:28 »
Ummm... I seem to recall a B-26 variant with a 105mm cannon in the nose...  8)

Colt Ward

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #35 on: 03 March 2021, 21:37:30 »
I seem to remember a documentary about mercenaries with a seaplane that had a cannon in the nose.

But that still does not apply to gun pods under the wings, lol.
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DevianID

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #36 on: 04 March 2021, 03:52:23 »
That would absolutely be a wing mounted gun.  Unless you are telling me that German plane could dump that cannon mid-flight, like all external-mounted ordinance can be?

Warship

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #37 on: 05 March 2021, 15:21:06 »
I seem to remember a documentary about mercenaries with a seaplane that had a cannon in the nose.

But that still does not apply to gun pods under the wings, lol.

Sounds like the "Expendables".  That would be a great idea for a small merc unit.  I think they would need their own Jumpship.

RifleMech

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #38 on: 12 March 2021, 06:38:43 »
Bomb bays are essentially one-shot launchers.  That's the paradigm you should be using when thinking about them.

 :thumbsup:


Well . . .



Considering the mass of the Bordkanone 3,7.  295 kg (650 lb) It would be a Light Machine Gun. ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BK_3,7

The  BK 7,5 (Bordkanone 7,5), would be harder to classify though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henschel_Hs_129#Hs_129_B-3  It's a 75mm cannon but it weighs 1,200 kg (2,600 lb). Going by the weight I'd say its Heavy Machine Gun. It being a 75mm Cannon makes me want to say it's equivalent to a Light Rifle Cannon.

If we go by weight and the BK 3,7 is a light MG and the  BK 7,5 is a heavy MG then the BK 5 would be your standard MG. I'd want to make it equivalent to the BA LB-X though do to it being 50mm. Except then it'd do more damage than the Light Rifle Cannon. Maybe a single SRM?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_BK-5

The heaviest gun pod I've found so far is the XM12/M12 and SUU-16/A   which is a M61A1 20 mm cannon and 1,200 rounds of ammunition weighing 1,650 lb (750 kg).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._aircraft_gun_pods
 That's still a lot less than any Battletech vehicle scale autocannon. I'd still call it a machine gun.

The closest Battletech autocannon to any of these would be the Battle Armor LB-X AC at 400 kg. Pity it isn't legal to use on vehicles but I'm okay with house ruling it.

As to being droppable, I think the hard point guns would be droppable. From what I read they'd have a targeting penalty though as they're more unstable. They also seem to be a mostly post WWII thing. Conformal guns would still take bomb slots because of the weight but would be more stable so no targeting penalty.

Colt Ward

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #39 on: 12 March 2021, 10:23:04 »
And a M2 50 caliber machine gun with ammo does not weigh half a ton.  Using the weight of that canon IRL for a comparison is futile.
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CVB

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #40 on: 12 March 2021, 17:41:33 »
The apocryphal XTRO 1945 gives the following equivalents:

37mm cannon = Medium Recoilless Rifle
50mm cannon falls between Medium Recoilless Rifle (47mm cannon) and Heavy Recoilless Rifle (57mm cannon), but nearer to the first
75mm cannon = Light Rifle (Cannon)
[see TM]

various Machine Guns: Vintage Machine Gun, Vintage Minigun, and Support Machine Gun
[see AToWC]

Daryk

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #41 on: 12 March 2021, 19:29:35 »
And a M2 50 caliber machine gun with ammo does not weigh half a ton.  Using the weight of that canon IRL for a comparison is futile.
When you add in the tonnage for a Remote Weapon Station, it gets a LOT heavier.  Stabilization and remote targeting are anything but light...

DevianID

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #42 on: 14 March 2021, 14:55:13 »
Quote
Stabilization and remote targeting are anything but light...
Very true.  Even if immobile, guns can traverse 120 degrees in the nose and 60ish in the wings.  The ww2 and current cannons are "spinal mounted" in terms of arc, as you must be pointed directly at what you want to shoot.

RifleMech

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #43 on: 21 March 2021, 00:03:24 »
And a M2 50 caliber machine gun with ammo does not weigh half a ton.  Using the weight of that canon IRL for a comparison is futile.

Very true. Although mounting equipment, power, coolant, and ammo lines do add to the weight.

I don't think machine guns really do weigh a half ton. I think the half ton is because that's what everything rounds up to. The Clans with their advanced tech figured out how to round it up to .25 tons.

Colt Ward

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #44 on: 21 March 2021, 00:13:50 »
Very true. Although mounting equipment, power, coolant, and ammo lines do add to the weight.

I don't think machine guns really do weigh a half ton. I think the half ton is because that's what everything rounds up to. The Clans with their advanced tech figured out how to round it up to .25 tons.

Chin MG mount on an Apache weighs . . . ?
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Daryk

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #45 on: 21 March 2021, 06:37:48 »
If you scroll down to the bottom of this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M230_chain_gun

You'll see an estimated weight for the remote weapon station of 400kg, and a further 72.6 for a version of the M230.  That's close enough to a half ton for me.  M2HBs are around 44kg, and can be installed in that same RWS.

Colt Ward

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #46 on: 21 March 2021, 15:33:26 »
Apache's traverse is greater than a mech's outside the arm in BT, but . . . well, I mostly retract the statement then, lol.
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Charistoph

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #47 on: 30 March 2021, 09:49:53 »
I know gun pods were used on F-4s in Vietnam, especially the early versions which had no guns.  They were 20mm and could be mounted on anything with wing or ventral mounts, but I can't remember how much ammo they carry off hand.
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CVB

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #48 on: 30 March 2021, 10:48:20 »
There were two different 20mm pods used on US and UK Phantoms, SUU-16 and SUU-23 (ram-air turbine and internally powered versions, respectively,  using the standard M61 Vulcan firing at 6000 rpm). Both pods carried 1200 rounds each.

Wolf72

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #49 on: 30 March 2021, 15:40:15 »
How long would those last in a typical (was anything typical in Vietnam?) sortie? (one where they used them.)
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CVB

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #50 on: 30 March 2021, 17:40:02 »
I don't have any data on average or typical length of engagement. Since every later fighter or attack plane installation (except on the AC gunships) had less rounds - typically between 400 and 1000 - 1200 seems to have been enough. Problems seemed to have come more from low accuracy due to vibrating pods and frequent loss of alignment between pod and pylon

A burst limiter can be used to fire controlled bursts from two or three up to 40 or 50 rounds per trigger pull.

Daryk

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Re: External stores - why no missiles
« Reply #51 on: 30 March 2021, 17:40:40 »
Apache's traverse is greater than a mech's outside the arm in BT, but . . . well, I mostly retract the statement then, lol.
I count that as a win for my Remote Weapon Station thread (linked in my sig block)...  8)

 

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