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Author Topic: Republic WarShips Battle of Terra  (Read 4868 times)

monbvol

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Re: Republic WarShips Battle of Terra
« Reply #60 on: 31 August 2021, 17:24:59 »
Planetary Bombardment seems to be a skill the Clans rarely fall back on. I can see the Wolves doing so but only if the Wolves were on the back foot fighting on Terra. The Clans always want to minimize damage. Particularly for a world like Terra which they want to take as undamaged as possible. Interestingly the Ares Conventions allowed for nuclear weapons in space warfare and Alarics own intention to invade Terra was conquest. He made no bid at all which also removed any hamstrings that the Republic might have had themselves for there own defence. In the end, PWS's, aerospace fighters, and the Republic Warships letting loose with nukes early on might have actually removed the Wolf Warships from the playing field early on and removed the threat they posed. Because the Wolves jumped in with the intention of a conventional fight. Nukes were the last weapon they would have prepped to use. Heck, most probably didnt even have any onboard besides the McKennas Pride.

Turtle Bay, Galedon, and another world I forget the name of would contend that just a bit.  Plus early fiction had the Clans doing some pretty terrible things to planets that resisted them.

So counting on the enemy to show restraint was no sure thing.

Maingunnery

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Re: Republic WarShips Battle of Terra
« Reply #61 on: 31 August 2021, 17:28:32 »
Nukes would not have really helped, since the Jihad we have seen more an more designs with heavy Point Defenses even among the Clans. Considering the whole of Clan Wolf showed up means also that all their PD was on the field and any detected nukes would have received top priority. Any fighters with nukes would also be easy prey for Clan interceptor ASF.
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Stormlion1

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Re: Republic WarShips Battle of Terra
« Reply #62 on: 31 August 2021, 19:01:20 »
Nukes would not have really helped, since the Jihad we have seen more an more designs with heavy Point Defenses even among the Clans. Considering the whole of Clan Wolf showed up means also that all their PD was on the field and any detected nukes would have received top priority. Any fighters with nukes would also be easy prey for Clan interceptor ASF.

Inner Sphere Aerospace pilots were one of the few areas that eclipsed the Clans. Plus I'm not talking a nuke here or there. I'm talking entire squadrons on aerospace fighters with nukes backed by PWS's firing off nukes. Very World War 2 in scope with multiple squadrons targeting a single warship at a time. Odds are something will get through. And for some ships, like a McKenna the PD just isn't there.
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Re: Republic WarShips Battle of Terra
« Reply #63 on: 31 August 2021, 19:05:39 »
Bombardment is still something the clans have in their back pocket. It's hard to speculate how that factored into the republic's naval strategy, since they didn't really have a naval strategy... but if it were me I'd want to hold off on the nukes unless I was sure I could take his big guns out of play.

And I'm iffy on that from bearing only range, since the wolves could overlap point defense fields on the way in and make any hits few and far between and I doubt anybody in universe would let me have the number of missile platforms necessary to overwhelm that.

Nah, if I was going to defend the orbitals and the great and freezer burnt Devlin Stone insisted I couldn't use his precious warships in the defense, I'd want stations to base as many drone fighters as I could get out of. Still use bearing only missile strikes, because naval missiles are cheap and any hit I score helps, but my primary defense would be the cylon death cloud. If the numbers crunch to where I can score localized superiority for just long enough to deliver a heavy payload and get away with it, then I consider the nukes.
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Stormlion1

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Re: Republic WarShips Battle of Terra
« Reply #64 on: 31 August 2021, 19:14:00 »
Bombardment is still something the clans have in their back pocket. It's hard to speculate how that factored into the republic's naval strategy, since they didn't really have a naval strategy... but if it were me I'd want to hold off on the nukes unless I was sure I could take his big guns out of play.

And I'm iffy on that from bearing only range, since the wolves could overlap point defense fields on the way in and make any hits few and far between and I doubt anybody in universe would let me have the number of missile platforms necessary to overwhelm that.

Nah, if I was going to defend the orbitals and the great and freezer burnt Devlin Stone insisted I couldn't use his precious warships in the defense, I'd want stations to base as many drone fighters as I could get out of. Still use bearing only missile strikes, because naval missiles are cheap and any hit I score helps, but my primary defense would be the cylon death cloud. If the numbers crunch to where I can score localized superiority for just long enough to deliver a heavy payload and get away with it, then I consider the nukes.

Swarming naval missiles is always a good idea. But the issue is delivery. The orbital stations were taken out very quickly and the stations only had a limited time to attack. If your gonna go with swarm attacks then a mobile force with those missiles would be the way to go. A unit of six Arondight PW's could put out a large amount of missiles all directed at a single target. Enough to do significant damage and defend themselves against incoming Aerospace fighters. Even better, they do not need to sitting on the jumping. They could be based on defense platforms, on the RoTS warships, or even sitting on the moon to deploy when it comes around in its orbit!
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Maingunnery

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Re: Republic WarShips Battle of Terra
« Reply #65 on: 31 August 2021, 19:20:14 »
Inner Sphere Aerospace pilots were one of the few areas that eclipsed the Clans.
Equal, not eclipsed.

Quote
Plus I'm not talking a nuke here or there. I'm talking entire squadrons on aerospace fighters with nukes backed by PWS's firing off nukes. Very World War 2 in scope with multiple squadrons targeting a single warship at a time. Odds are something will get through. And for some ships, like a McKenna the PD just isn't there.
There is a Clan's worth of ASF, SC and PWS there, they will outnumber the defenders.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Republic WarShips Battle of Terra
« Reply #66 on: 31 August 2021, 19:41:13 »
Equal, not eclipsed.
There is a Clan's worth of ASF, SC and PWS there, they will outnumber the defenders.
Swarming naval missiles is always a good idea. But the issue is delivery. The orbital stations were taken out very quickly and the stations only had a limited time to attack. If your gonna go with swarm attacks then a mobile force with those missiles would be the way to go. A unit of six Arondight PW's could put out a large amount of missiles all directed at a single target. Enough to do significant damage and defend themselves against incoming Aerospace fighters. Even better, they do not need to sitting on the jumping. They could be based on defense platforms, on the RoTS warships, or even sitting on the moon to deploy when it comes around in its orbit!

and that Clan's worth is why you take the risk to hit their carriers, but to do that, you have to have mobile forces, and Stone focused on fixed defenses, and fixed defenses alone are a testimony to false assumptions and a 'strategy' based on hope and unicorn farts.

But as Gio pointed out, the Republic's 'strategy' wasn't a strategy, it was one old man's narcissistic fantasy, as carried out by his brainwashed minions.  The focus on nukes in the discussion is interesting because really, they're the smallest  factor.

Stoney's 'Strategy' would have failed even with all the nukes, because his defensive plan, including relying on Sats and Stations, is a fail from the outset.  what I'm saying here, is you're right, mostly, because he lost the war the moment he handed the initiative to the enemy.

which he did, from the outset.

No walled city has every survived a seige without external support.  The moment the walls get pierced, regardless of how long the seige has been, those cities either fall, or get rescued.  Vienna, Constantinople, Berlin, doesn't matter-fixed defenses only work if help is on the way, and it wasn't.

stone orchestrated Gray Monday, and his followers executed Fortress, and with that, Devlin Stone lost the war.  He lost it because he didn't know his enemy, and he did not understand his own assets, instead basing his entire defense on false assumptions.

I'll point out again, the only 'successes' to be found among the Republic's military occurred under subordinates willing to go against his 'grand strategy'-and there were too few of those to make any difference whatsoever.

The actual layout of his defense, on the naval scale, was built on the kind of assumptions only someone uninterested in outer space could treat as credible, and was rooted in techniques already proven to fail in universe in previous conflicts (See: Reunification War, Star League Civil War, and Succession Wars 1 and 2, the Jihad where Stone made his fame, and so on.)

Stone made nearly every mistake you could make, from giving his opponents the initiative and cutting off reliable information, to relying on stationary, fixed defenses that aren't capable on their own, to placing his naval force at the mercy of his enemies by building it to that stationary, fixed defense model, to witholding his mobile reserve with the idea that it would be 'better used on offense'.

and that's before we get to his doing the same things on the ground after the landings started.

which should look familiar, because the WoB/Master/etc. made exactly teh same mistakes, which were made by New Dallas after Exodus, and made by Amaris before him.

A Naval force, in a fixed position, is not a naval force-it's an expensive bunker, and expensive bunkers collapse.  The Maginot Line, the Siegfried Line, these demonstrate the folly of fixed defense against an enemy granted the initiative and strategic mobility.

as the saying goes, "Defense may seem stronger, but it rarely wins decisions."


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monbvol

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Re: Republic WarShips Battle of Terra
« Reply #67 on: 31 August 2021, 20:53:32 »
Inner Sphere Aerospace pilots were one of the few areas that eclipsed the Clans. Plus I'm not talking a nuke here or there. I'm talking entire squadrons on aerospace fighters with nukes backed by PWS's firing off nukes. Very World War 2 in scope with multiple squadrons targeting a single warship at a time. Odds are something will get through. And for some ships, like a McKenna the PD just isn't there.

As others have pointed out the numbers were on the Clan's side in this fight.

Plus my reading of the Jihad era and beyond Clans indicate they no longer neglected their ASF arms like they did before.

Stormlion1

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Re: Republic WarShips Battle of Terra
« Reply #68 on: 01 September 2021, 07:06:30 »
As others have pointed out the numbers were on the Clan's side in this fight.

Plus my reading of the Jihad era and beyond Clans indicate they no longer neglected their ASF arms like they did before.

That's also a issue I fail to understand. The Wolves outnumbered the Defenders? Stone had decades of production of possible PWS and Aerospace Fighters. Even taking into account ground forces production Terra alone should have produced far more in the way of orbital defense. The Titan Shipyards should have been producing dropship hulls quickly unless there were raw material issues. And then there would be the construction rate on Terra itself. By definition Terra should have had thousands of PWS's available if they started production after the Wall went up. Now while a PWS isnt a warship no warship would stand against that many PWS's.
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Maingunnery

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Re: Republic WarShips Battle of Terra
« Reply #69 on: 01 September 2021, 07:36:30 »
That's also a issue I fail to understand. The Wolves outnumbered the Defenders? Stone had decades of production of possible PWS and Aerospace Fighters. Even taking into account ground forces production Terra alone should have produced far more in the way of orbital defense. The Titan Shipyards should have been producing dropship hulls quickly unless there were raw material issues. And then there would be the construction rate on Terra itself. By definition Terra should have had thousands of PWS's available if they started production after the Wall went up. Now while a PWS isnt a warship no warship would stand against that many PWS's.
Well there are many factors.
- Terra doesn't produce that fast ( thousands of PWS).
- The sudden chaos of the Dark Age really prevented proper leadership.
- Terra is resource poor and the JumpShips that would normally transported those resources have been used for the Wall or for critical troop transports.
- Many of the produced PWS are likely outside of the Terra system either stuck there without transport or tasked with keeping the Houses out.
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Wrangler

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Re: Republic WarShips Battle of Terra
« Reply #70 on: 01 September 2021, 09:16:06 »
It's entirely possible there other resources that were left off the books (including for us) that Terra could have tapped into. 

Such as the Comstar shipyard / bases which may have been left listed as destroyed but may have organized mothball field.

If Republic forces were able secret in the periphery's lone Warship.  They could done the same with PWS or left over assets from the Jihad.

Either the conflict unfolded way it was intended to by plot, perhaps with not enough detail sate us fans.  Either way, its hard argue what they should have and shouldn't have or where they got anything.  Abstract been go-to thing because how detailed the BT Universe is and something going be missed unless it's being helded by one or so people.

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monbvol

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Re: Republic WarShips Battle of Terra
« Reply #71 on: 01 September 2021, 09:39:32 »
That's also a issue I fail to understand. The Wolves outnumbered the Defenders? Stone had decades of production of possible PWS and Aerospace Fighters. Even taking into account ground forces production Terra alone should have produced far more in the way of orbital defense. The Titan Shipyards should have been producing dropship hulls quickly unless there were raw material issues. And then there would be the construction rate on Terra itself. By definition Terra should have had thousands of PWS's available if they started production after the Wall went up. Now while a PWS isnt a warship no warship would stand against that many PWS's.

Battletech as a setting has always held true to one fundamental concept:

The financial cost of a thing is not actually the primary limiting factor for why there are not FAR greater numbers of them being produced.

It took more than Terra at the height of the Star League to build up the SLDF after all, even the naval arm.

Cannonshop

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Re: Republic WarShips Battle of Terra
« Reply #72 on: 01 September 2021, 09:40:38 »
It's entirely possible there other resources that were left off the books (including for us) that Terra could have tapped into. 

Such as the Comstar shipyard / bases which may have been left listed as destroyed but may have organized mothball field.

If Republic forces were able secret in the periphery's lone Warship.  They could done the same with PWS or left over assets from the Jihad.

Either the conflict unfolded way it was intended to by plot, perhaps with not enough detail sate us fans.  Either way, its hard argue what they should have and shouldn't have or where they got anything.  Abstract been go-to thing because how detailed the BT Universe is and something going be missed unless it's being helded by one or so people.

I'll go back to what I said at the outset of the thread: They used TOO MUCH of the WRONG detail and made it look bad as a direct result.  This is a situation where 'more really is less, and less really is more'.

IOW they should've kept it to around four sentences of no more than six words for the entire 'naval battle' of terra and been done with it-this would've left enough mystery to make the Hero Faction (Wolf) look good, without highlighting the absolute and utter incompetence of the naval battle itself.  People would be speculating on 'wow, that wolf naval commander must be brilliant!' instead of 'geez, go figure the ROTS was run by imbeciles!'.

which is, admittedly, the take I got after reading the scenes, after which I had to engage in much mental gymnastics to try and make it less...offensive to my sensibilities.

I really shouldn't feel compelled to make excuses for the authors.  If you can't write a Naval Battle, just drop the result on the page in the fewest words necessary to get across the outcome, and be done with it.
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