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Author Topic: Troop transport  (Read 2998 times)

RifleMech

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #30 on: 27 August 2022, 16:43:58 »
Of course, many weights, especially for Foot Infantry types are a bit suspect themselves. An 185kg Foot Combat Engineer? Assume 85kg for the average person, that leaves 100kg of equipment carried permanently on foot!


Maybe they pull some of their gear behind them in a wagon?


True. I would really like to see a set of official, rules compliant designs of the TRO3026 exo skeletons and the PPC waldo.

So would I.



You can make the 3026 exoskeletons mostly work with Tech Manual rules on the individual level.  The complication comes in when you try to extend them to a platoon's worth of troops.


Don't Capellan Mine Layer Infantry wear some kind of exoskeleton?

Hellraiser

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #31 on: 28 August 2022, 17:40:58 »
Föot platoons normally get 28 men, Jumpers get only 21.

I'm not sure what your point is?
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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #32 on: 28 August 2022, 18:04:51 »
Not for a 30 trooper Jump Platoon. The Conventional Infantry Weight Table in TM puts their weights at:

Foot Infantry = 2.55 tons
Jump Infantry = 4.95 tons
Motorized Infantry = 5.85 tons

Foot and Motorized get rounded up to 3 and 6 tons but 30 Jump Infantry get lighter by .95 tons when transported. 

1.  I think your branching out into a different topic
2.  The weights you appear to be referencing are based on Non-AM equipped troops but the canon weights for each platoon ARE based on AM Equipped troops.

Foot 30 at 3 tons is 85KG person + 15 KG AM gear = 3 Tons
Jump at 4 tons is based on a 21 person AM equipped Platoon.   Obviously a 30 man platoon is going to be different.
Also, the Jump Bay only gave you 21 bunks, not 30.

The point that I was stating is that using the base model of 3-4-6 as "standard" weight in "Cargo Bays" you end up adding 2-2-1 to give them Beds so the "Beds" weight or the "Bikes" for Motor troops end up being lighter & not conforming.


Quote
In a way, I like it because I have a hard time picturing an M113 APC carrying 7 troopers on motorcycles. 
M113 @ 12 tons is similar but isn't really the same scale as BT APCs.
The 10 Ton APC is smaller but carries FOOT squad, not on bikes.
Maxim is 4x the size & makes an 18 wheeler look small.
The Heavy APC is actually probably about the right size for a typical 18 wheeler & I could maybe see that packing in 28 dirtbikers.

Quote
A Foot Combat Engineer Platoon weights 5.55 tons. That's more than a Foot Infantry Bay.
This is no different than sticking a Motor Platoon into a canon Dropship's Foot Platoon Bay like I mentioned up thread.
The extra tons just comes out of cargo.  The bunks are still the same, the people are still the same, its just the crap they have assigned to them that changes.
All that "engineering" gear can be stored down in cargo section, just like the Motor Platoon's dirtbikes.
No need to change the RS, just "fluff" the extra crap as coming out of cargo, same thing as a platoon that has Field Guns attached to it for example.
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CVB

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #33 on: 28 August 2022, 18:32:11 »
I'm not sure what your point is?
If a Jump platoon contains only 70% to 75% of the troopers, they shouldn't weigh the same "3tons Foot" and "2 tons beds"  as the larger platoons.
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dgorsman

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #34 on: 28 August 2022, 19:20:09 »
Off the top of my head, I "think" the Elephant, Conquistador, &/or, Aurora might all have Motor or Jump troops instead of Foot.


Elephant specifies as jump, all the rest are foot.
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RifleMech

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #35 on: 28 August 2022, 22:01:58 »
1.  I think your branching out into a different topic
2.  The weights you appear to be referencing are based on Non-AM equipped troops but the canon weights for each platoon ARE based on AM Equipped troops.

Foot 30 at 3 tons is 85KG person + 15 KG AM gear = 3 Tons
Jump at 4 tons is based on a 21 person AM equipped Platoon.   Obviously a 30 man platoon is going to be different.
Also, the Jump Bay only gave you 21 bunks, not 30.

The point that I was stating is that using the base model of 3-4-6 as "standard" weight in "Cargo Bays" you end up adding 2-2-1 to give them Beds so the "Beds" weight or the "Bikes" for Motor troops end up being lighter & not conforming.

1) I'm still looking at transport weight for troopers, Bay Occupancy, and Bay Weight. I haven't gotten into the Generic Infantry from Total Warfare. Many TW infantry do not match what's found on TM's infantry formation table but TW's infantry weights don't match TM's infantry weight table either. In fact, there is one that would be illegal under TM's rules.

 
2) TechManual lists 30 troopers for Foot, Jump, and Motorized Bays. As Daryk said, TM was errataed to allow transportation of Taurian Infantry Platoons.
It's the max platoon size I'm looking at. a Taurian Jump Platoon of 30 troopers weighs, 4.95 tons. 5.4 tons with antiMech training. A Jump Infantry Bay for 30 troopers weighs 5 tons.

3) The amount of troopers along with any special abilities will change their weight of the squad/platoon but if that weight exceeds the weight of the bay, do they really fit?


Quote
M113 @ 12 tons is similar but isn't really the same scale as BT APCs.
The 10 Ton APC is smaller but carries FOOT squad, not on bikes.
Maxim is 4x the size & makes an 18 wheeler look small.
The Heavy APC is actually probably about the right size for a typical 18 wheeler & I could maybe see that packing in 28 dirtbikers.

The point is you're not going to get 7 troopers on 7 motorcycles in a M113. Maybe the amount equal in weight but they're not going to be deployable.
The smaller APCs don't list an infantry type. Legally, they could carry a squad of 5 motorized infantry. They come in a .975 tons. I suppose I could see that.
I can see the Heavy APC carrying 28 dirt bikes too.


Quote
This is no different than sticking a Motor Platoon into a canon Dropship's Foot Platoon Bay like I mentioned up thread.
The extra tons just comes out of cargo.  The bunks are still the same, the people are still the same, its just the crap they have assigned to them that changes.
All that "engineering" gear can be stored down in cargo section, just like the Motor Platoon's dirtbikes.
No need to change the RS, just "fluff" the extra crap as coming out of cargo, same thing as a platoon that has Field Guns attached to it for example.


I can only see that working two ways. The first is if the platoon/squad in question takes longer to deploy because the troops and vehicles are not longer in the same location. The more gear they have the longer it takes to unpack. And the platoon/squad would have to deploy from the cargo bay. A Dirt bike can go between bunks. A 4.5 ton half track can't. Especially not when towing a 6 ton LAC/5.

The second way is to construct bays similar to how we construct the platoon. That way the infantry and their vehicles are in the same location so there's no delay in deploying.


Wolf72

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #36 on: 11 September 2022, 15:09:34 »


3) The amount of troopers along with any special abilities will change their weight of the squad/platoon but if that weight exceeds the weight of the bay, do they really fit?




I think this gets handwaved away.  Like having a 200t small craft bay with a 200t small craft ... it also includes room for 5 personnel (2 techs+3 SC crew).

If we have to track that weight, then any excess should be accounted for in cargo tonnage.  Gads, what a motorized thumper platoon! (or bigger) ... they get heavy.

crap, I want to know now too (well, even more than I did before!)
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Daryk

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #37 on: 11 September 2022, 15:26:57 »
You've hit on the exact reason I did this thread...  8)

RifleMech

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #38 on: 12 September 2022, 04:56:45 »
I think this gets handwaved away.  Like having a 200t small craft bay with a 200t small craft ... it also includes room for 5 personnel (2 techs+3 SC crew).

If we have to track that weight, then any excess should be accounted for in cargo tonnage.  Gads, what a motorized thumper platoon! (or bigger) ... they get heavy.

crap, I want to know now too (well, even more than I did before!)


I can see some weight getting handwaved away but all those thumpers....I think that's harder to wave away.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #39 on: 12 September 2022, 05:18:30 »
I think the SC bay personnel actually bunks in the SC rather than on the ship since you already need bunks for them onboard

Colt Ward

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #40 on: 12 September 2022, 09:50:48 »
That practically requires exoskeletons to make work...  ^-^

 . . . or you know wheels, because wheelbarrows and dollies let you move more equipment.
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Daryk

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #41 on: 12 September 2022, 17:26:00 »
Sure, when the terrain cooperates.  Exoskeletons give you more variety there, plus the cool factor of using myomer...  8)

Wolf72

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #42 on: 17 September 2022, 10:23:31 »

I can see some weight getting handwaved away but all those thumpers....I think that's harder to wave away.

I would think any special units like Field Guns or Artillery would have to be cargo carried.

A motorized platoon of standard infantry (which has a higher bay mass anyway) has higher bay requirements anyway (7 for motor, 8 for mechanized) ... I think they can scoot on out at normal speed rather than using cargo speed. maybe not so much ...

[edit] So I found this in TacOps PDF (older combined version): p311
Quote
The weight of all Field Guns and their ammunition are added to the platoon’s transport weight, and a platoon may not be broken down for transport purposes below the weight of a single Field Gun and its ammunition

The bays would cover the personnel, and any mass for field guns/artillery w/ammo are carried as cargo.

Now looking at my pdf TM 6th printing: p155 ... each mechanized trooper w/vehicle(s) is one ton.  Sooo a 24 man platoon/tracked would be 24 tons, the Bays on p239 are by SQUAD for mechanized.  Holy heck, they are going to suck up a lot of room!

So you need a bay per squad (at 8 tons and up to 7 troopers) ... assuming that it takes into account their vehicles too.  Now add in whatever field type gun you've given them as cargo.  It looks like they've done away with the max limit of troopers for mechanized units (well 30, then you have to create another platoon for dmg purposes).

If I went a 28 mz/tracked troopers: that would be 4 bays for 32 tons, if they carried 3 AC-5 field guns that would need 27t of cargo space (3x8 +3t ammo).  That unit would be sucking up 59 tons.

I think bays have to be specified & included in construction, but I'd totally allow someone to have some sort of prefab bay (at the needed mass) that takes up cargo space.  And allow anyone to tally up the total infantry bay space and distribute as needed.

(Jump and motorized get up to a full 30 man bay, so they're fully covered imo)
« Last Edit: 18 September 2022, 17:19:05 by Wolf72 »
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Failure16

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #43 on: 18 September 2022, 04:12:16 »
While I freely admit that I might have missed a reply that touches on this present sidetrack into conventional ground vehicles, BattleTech went wrong when they instituted the Spaces/Slots for AFVs and kept the infantry mass without delving into what it meant by a slot-usage perspective.

That is to say, the weights were generally fine*, but there is a way to keep BattleTech infantry transports from being clown cars. Maybe make each tonne of infantry cost 3-5 Equipment Slots and see how you end up...

*Note that the computed weight of a given trooper does not necessarily mean that is what they are running around during actual combat, but that is what their associated gear is, at least spread out between their persons and the gear that stays with their carrier.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #44 on: 21 September 2022, 12:49:17 »
I think bays have to be specified & included in construction, but I'd totally allow someone to have some sort of prefab bay (at the needed mass) that takes up cargo space.  And allow anyone to tally up the total infantry bay space and distribute as needed.

This is what I was talking about w/ DS that want to use Jump/Motor even though the bay is Foot.
Just have them sleep in the Foot platoon bunk rooms & chalk up the extra tonnage for Packs/Cycles as coming from Cargo.
Its the same thing your saying is required for Field Guns.
So by that same tracking, if you want Mechanized, stick them in Foot (5 Tons) and have the other 27 come from Cargo.
Its not like anyone is sleeping w/ their Jeeps/Trucks in the actual Mechanized Bays.

The only real "Rules" difference would that maybe the ones w/ gear in Cargo can't deploy on landing from actual bays, but, for some reason & feel like Infantry don't actually follow the "Cargo" rules to begin with, or maybe its Cargo Doors, I forget, but basically because they are infantry they just offload at full speed I'm thinking.
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Wolf72

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #45 on: 21 September 2022, 16:37:18 »
I think that would fly at any table.

I think infantry deployment would be an easy exception to the rule of deploying from the cargo bay ... just standard motor/mech/jump and not field guns/art (they'd have to truly unload).


next: tackle ultra-heavy protomechs!  >:D
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Daryk

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #46 on: 21 September 2022, 18:00:32 »
I'm not so sure about that... if they have vehicles, they need the right kind of bay to deploy on landing.  It's only troops that move on their own legs that get the free pass for loading/unloading, I think.

Wolf72

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #47 on: 21 September 2022, 19:53:44 »
unicycle clown platoon ... striking fear into the hearts of everyone!

Actually a motorized platoon's bay is reasonable at 7(?) tons ... the mechanized at 8(?) tons for 7 troops is the kicker.  A full platoon of 28 would be 32 tons.  I'd be ok giving it some sort of fluff that explains why they get a 'pass', again only for a standard style platoon.

I can't but help but imagine Paw Patrol as a mechanized force.
« Last Edit: 21 September 2022, 20:01:23 by Wolf72 »
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Daryk

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #48 on: 21 September 2022, 20:00:40 »
Mechanized at even eight tons only gives you three tons for the vehicle(s) (foot infantry bays are five per platoon).  That's still a bargain compared to light vehicle bays, right up until you consider how many platoons you can cram into a 50-ton vehicle...  ^-^

idea weenie

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #49 on: 21 September 2022, 22:20:23 »
This is what I was talking about w/ DS that want to use Jump/Motor even though the bay is Foot.
Just have them sleep in the Foot platoon bunk rooms & chalk up the extra tonnage for Packs/Cycles as coming from Cargo.
Its the same thing your saying is required for Field Guns.
So by that same tracking, if you want Mechanized, stick them in Foot (5 Tons) and have the other 27 come from Cargo.
Its not like anyone is sleeping w/ their Jeeps/Trucks in the actual Mechanized Bays.

The only real "Rules" difference would that maybe the ones w/ gear in Cargo can't deploy on landing from actual bays, but, for some reason & feel like Infantry don't actually follow the "Cargo" rules to begin with, or maybe its Cargo Doors, I forget, but basically because they are infantry they just offload at full speed I'm thinking.

So platoons would have two requirements?
- tons/equipment needed for people
- tons/equipment needed for the gear

That could be nice for troop transports and passenger Dropships.  Any details for this might be Fan Rules though

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #50 on: 21 September 2022, 22:33:29 »
Mechanized at even eight tons only gives you three tons for the vehicle(s) (foot infantry bays are five per platoon).  That's still a bargain compared to light vehicle bays, right up until you consider how many platoons you can cram into a 50-ton vehicle...  ^-^

Not quite. 
Your comparing a Squad to a Platoon. 
So its 1.25 Tons for the Squad of Infantry Bunks.
6.75 Tons for the Jeeps.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #51 on: 21 September 2022, 22:35:49 »
I'm not so sure about that... if they have vehicles, they need the right kind of bay to deploy on landing.  It's only troops that move on their own legs that get the free pass for loading/unloading, I think.

Is it?  I thought it was all infantry.  Not sure.
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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #52 on: 22 September 2022, 07:21:13 »
Is it?  I thought it was all infantry.  Not sure.
Depends on the carrying unit. Mechanized Infantry may disembark  as units only from Dropships, Small Craft and Large Support Vehicles > 100 tons. From Combat and Medium Support vehicles they need to unload as cargo.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #53 on: 22 September 2022, 12:08:47 »
Makes sense, I was thinking of Dropships for this conversation.

Interesting that a large support craft turns them into Cargo.
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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #54 on: 25 September 2022, 23:47:41 »
next: tackle ultra-heavy protomechs!  >:D

I belive they can be mounted just like Ultralight Mechs, even thought they are completely smaller in size, just not weight.

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Wolf72

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #55 on: 26 September 2022, 15:53:45 »
I belive they can be mounted just like Ultralight Mechs, even thought they are completely smaller in size, just not weight.

TT

There is no current bay for them, protomechs have a bay (at 75t) wait a sec ... 5x15 is 75.  OH Nevermind! ... you are correct, ... what in blazes am I talking about!

Issue with protomech bays is that they are 50t and can hold up to five 9 ton protos.  UH protos weight 10-15 ... they'd either meet the total bay mass or be over.  So we need a new bay, I'd propose a 75 ton bay (max for protos is 15t, so it would be like a small craft or super heavy veh bay where the unit is the same mass as the bay.)
« Last Edit: 26 September 2022, 19:22:31 by Wolf72 »
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truetanker

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #56 on: 26 September 2022, 21:57:43 »
Except UH are considered Ultra-Light Mechs, and as such, can be transported via standard Mech cubicle.

Your proposal for a same mass bay is nice, but irrelevant to this Troop discusion.

TT
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Wolf72

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #57 on: 27 September 2022, 16:19:19 »
Except UH are considered Ultra-Light Mechs, and as such, can be transported via standard Mech cubicle.

Your proposal for a same mass bay is nice, but irrelevant to this Troop discussion.

TT

Somehow that UH = UL eluded me! Irrelevant? hmph would at least give a strong tangent connection, but regardless its answered.  One of those things that slips by your eyes.
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truetanker

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #58 on: 27 September 2022, 22:41:31 »
Well what's funny is I can call upon a Horse Outpost 3070 Refit dropper, stuff it with Short Star of Protomechs : Five of UH and Ten of Standard, a Binary of BA and lastly, a Star of Vehicles in support.

TT
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Wolf72

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Re: Troop transport
« Reply #59 on: 09 October 2022, 19:47:32 »
BAH ... maybe I should take time to reread full thread before posting from period of inactivity.

long story short, been putting the different (now up to 30 for all but mechanized) troop types and sizes in a word table. A lot of fun.  Would like an Infantry TRO that explores much of this (to include compartments and bays!). Also platoon sizes offer some weight savings over squad level compartments ... but you take what you can get when you can get it!
« Last Edit: 09 October 2022, 22:01:13 by Wolf72 »
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