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Author Topic: York versus XYZ  (Read 1561 times)

Hellraiser

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York versus XYZ
« on: 02 December 2019, 12:25:29 »
I thought I asked this in the past but I can't find the thread so maybe it was on the old boards.

But,  I need opinions from the Aero Experts who have played many WS on WS battles.   (Love AT but never got to use anything larger than a DS on the map.)


1.   Who wins in a York v/s Congress-c fight?    No ASF/DS Included.


2.   Who wins in a York v/s Congress-D fight (Original extra NAC30's version from 2750)?    No ASF/DS Included.


3.   Same question but add in 50 Clan Fighters for the York & add in an Avenger & 50 IS Fighters for the Congress?


4.   York + 50 Clan Fighters  v/s   Aegis (2750)?
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

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Jellico

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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #1 on: 02 December 2019, 17:45:52 »
Congress
Congress
Congress
Aegis

Hellraiser

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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #2 on: 02 December 2019, 18:24:29 »
Wow, thanks Jellico.

I didn't expect the York to loose them all.

I was thinking scenario 3 for sure & possibly 1 & 2 would go to the York.



Given the York has more Armor, Firepower, & Speed........... What do you feel gives the Congress-c the edge?     (I feel it has SI & bracketing in its favor but that's about it.)
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Weirdo

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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #3 on: 02 December 2019, 18:34:36 »
To beat bracketing, you need a major speed advantage, or a minor speed advantage and a huge armor advantage. Or enough fighters that your actual ship is irrelevant.
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Jellico

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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #4 on: 03 December 2019, 08:03:27 »
The Congress has a 120 point broadside.
The York has a 92 point broadside.

The York brackets better but does so with NLs so is pretty useless.

The York's main BS weapon is its NAC30s. In this dice game if they don't hit the York loses. The Congress is more consistent in its damage.

The NAC40s and MNPPCs in the bow of the York look interesting but are a relic of Battlespace days. Charging in bow first works on DropShips but not so much against Warships.

In combat the York is usually a punching bag hoping to outlast its enemies without getting critted. Note every Congress bay will crit a York.

That covers the first two.

ASF are very powerful but have very good armour relative to a very weak sting. 50 ASF will kill a York or Congress. But the Warships will have achieved a result before the ASF become an issue.

Briefly Warships get fast kills. ASF get slow kills.

As for number 4?
I rate an Aegis against 80 ASF.
An Aegis should kill a York that is willing to commit in under 10 turns. At that point it can start an extended burn and hope it's armour out lasts the ASF fuel.
Alternatively the Aegis should defeat 50 ASF and can out manoeuvre a York struggling to come into combat range. At least long enough to effect combat repairs.
Also the Aegis capital missiles out range anything on the York and there are potentially a lot of reloads in the cargo bay if given time to load them safely.

Colt Ward

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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #5 on: 06 December 2019, 17:12:39 »
Does this change with vectored thrust rules vs the standard movement?
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Weirdo

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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #6 on: 06 December 2019, 17:21:14 »
Not really. Once units get into range, vectored thrust benefits slower WarShips, because they often find they have all the thrust they need to turn their strongest guns\armor towards their foe, while radically changing your vector requires more thrust than even reasonably swift WarShips possess. Faster ships only regain their advantage at pointblank range, where a few TP and a lucky initiative roll can mean the difference between firing at fresh starboard armor or pre-shredded port armor.

Thrust advantages are more meaningful for DropShips and fighters, which are more likely to get that close to their target over the course of a battle.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #7 on: 06 December 2019, 17:47:57 »
Sure, got that, but I meant that with vectored thrust the York could keep those heavier nose guns on target while still moving about.  I just did not know if it provided enough other options to make it a closer bout.
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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #8 on: 06 December 2019, 18:27:28 »
Yes, the York will find it easier to receive crippling nose crits. My gut tells me the ability to being a pair of big NACs to bear only offsets this if you can expect to kill your opponent in a couple turns. Any longer, and you're essentially strafing.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Jellico

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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #9 on: 07 December 2019, 03:40:31 »
The nose NACs are 2 x 40 point bays with no bracketing. The BS NAC30s will offer better service.
The NPPCs are interesting but the damage output is low.
Without doing the math you are looking as the forward arc at medium range being about equal to the BS. With all the armour and crit problems of the forward arc. And it can't fight at long range. And at 4/6 You will be using most of your TP to move let alone get your nose arc on target.

VhenRa

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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #10 on: 16 December 2019, 01:40:05 »
The Congress has a 120 point broadside.

The SLDF/Clan one only has a 93 point broadside. 6 NAC/10s, a NAC/30 and a White Shark.

Congress-D is 133 though...
« Last Edit: 16 December 2019, 01:42:06 by VhenRa »

Jellico

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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #11 on: 16 December 2019, 03:27:50 »
Good catch. Must have counted the lasers by mistake. TROs are small on phone screens.

VhenRa

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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #12 on: 16 December 2019, 05:13:13 »
Which means you have two ships with essentially identical throw weight in the broadside.

York:
Two bays each of 2 NL35 and 2 NL45
One bay with two NAC/30s

Congress:
Three bays each of two NAC/10s
One bay with a single NAC/30
One bay with a single White Shark

York has an edge at extreme range... but both are basically worthless at extreme range on broadside. [18 vs 3 damage]. The nose quad MNPPCs look scary... but they are pretty much only good for perhaps a couple salvos while closing before turning broadside because you don't want to cross your T. And if the Congress is competent, they are gonna turn their armor over or take it on the nose and you are back to square one.
York has better armor; 120/100/100/120 vs 75/72/72/75.
York has better acceleration; 4/6 vs 3/5. Which I suppose means a York could attempt to play keep away at extreme range and plink with it's aft quad NL45s... but that's also unlikely to be decisive and if the Congress tires of it, it can turn around and leave and force the York to come to it. The increased acceleration could be useful if it carried fighters but it isn't.
Bracketing is a bit of a wash. The NAC/30s on the York can do twin brackets, same as the three NAC/10 bays on the Congress. The Congress's NAC/30 can't bracket, while the York's NL batteries once into long range can bracket at will, but reduce themselves to being very ineffective by doing so.

Really, this is a fight both ships can win and it's gonna come down to luck [and crew skill]. The York's NAC/30 battery is a killer but requires a single good hit while the Congress's NAC/10 mounts are not quite as individually lethal but more likely to get a hit... but the York has 40% more armor then a Congress. The NAC/30 on the Congress is interesting... but the NL batteries are also interesting.

The wild card here is the White Shark. Which could potentially get a crippling hit in with a critical at extreme range.

Daryk

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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #13 on: 16 December 2019, 20:22:25 »
Outside of the White Shark, the superior acceleration and range of the York should carry the day, even if it takes forever.

Hellraiser

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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #14 on: 17 December 2019, 19:55:38 »
So your saying scenario #1 is more even than others have stated.  Even an edge to the York.

But what about Scenario's 2-3 where its a Congress-D instead of Congress-c.

Does an extra 40 points per BS shift it solidly back into favor of the Congress?
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Daryk

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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #15 on: 17 December 2019, 20:05:55 »
If you're relying on superior range and acceleration, short range firepower won't make a difference.

Hellraiser

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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #16 on: 17 December 2019, 20:11:22 »
Long Range isn't really Short Range firepower is it?

Or are you planning on trying to play in the extreme bracket all day?
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Weirdo

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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #17 on: 17 December 2019, 20:30:57 »
Long Range isn't really Short Range firepower is it?

Anytime you're fighting the Star League, it absolutely is.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Daryk

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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #18 on: 17 December 2019, 21:14:06 »
The Extreme Range bracket would literally take all day, but you'd win without taking any damage in return.  How much is that worth?

VhenRa

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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #19 on: 17 December 2019, 21:52:01 »
Not really sure if you can keep at extreme range.

About only way I can see it is in a stern chase on either party. One of them legs it, York either follows and maintains the range or the Congress follows and is unable to catch up.

The White Sharks and Killer Whale tube really are the wild cards here. Those critical hits could potentially lame the York enough for the Congress to win.

Daryk

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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #20 on: 17 December 2019, 21:56:36 »
The York can counter any maneuver made by the Congress, and if they lose initiative, they can just open the range a bit and close it again when they win.

VhenRa

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Re: York versus XYZ
« Reply #21 on: 17 December 2019, 22:55:31 »
Honestly, this is reminding me a bit of descriptions of Starfleet Battles Saber Dancing.