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Author Topic: A Warfather Carrier  (Read 773 times)

Lagrange

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A Warfather Carrier
« on: 15 January 2022, 17:33:12 »
Given the discussion about efficient aerospace forces, I was wondering what an efficient warship transport would look like, coming up with the Warfather below.   Comments are welcome---what am I overlooking?

The Warfather carrier is a scaleup of the Warmother Heavy Transport to a warship.  It carries about 4x more forces, about 2x more armor, and unlike the Warmother actually has some minor offensive capability.  It only achieves a 5/8 thrust, making it somewhat more vulnerable to attack by opposed aerospace fighters.  Nevertheless, it's fast enough to avoid most dropships and other warships.  The Thera-scale ASF complement consists of 80 IS triads of any variety, all with quarters, and all able to launch in just 10 minutes or less.  The Warfather's armor is modest for a Warship, instead relying on speed and an overwhelming fighter complement for protection. 

The large naval comm-scanner suite provides a substantial bonus to observe enemies.  Against opposing forces lacking similar capabilities, it can set up and recover fighter strikes from beyond detection range, potentially achieving great surprise.  Unlike the Warmother, it can't transport via a jump circuit, so Warfather deployments are a much more deliberate affair unless it's a single system jump.

In terms of missions, the Warfather supports:
  • Ground invasion (via the IS triad) in brigade strength.
  • Space superiority (via space triads) in Thera-scale strength.
  • Scouting with the large naval commscanner suite as well as hyperspectral imagers and lookdown radar.
  • Ortillery with the SCL/1 arrays, which could be sustained for days.

The integral naval weaponry, integral jump drive, extra protection provided by extensive AMS, screen launchers, and naval comm scanner suite end up costing very similarly to a Warmother, since 4 Warmothers + two merchant scale jumpships costs about 6.5B and provide similar transport capabilities.

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Warfather
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $6,645,970,000.00
Magazine Cost: $0.00
BV2: 41,121

Mass: 510,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 5
Maximum Thrust: 8
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-Carbide
Armament:
64 AMS (IS)
68 PPC ER+Cap (IS)
8 Subcapital Laser 1
64 LAMS (IS)
4 Screen Launcher

Class/Model/Name: Warfather
Mass: 510,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 153,000.00
Thrust
Safe: 5
Maximum: 8
Controls: 1,275.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (12 Integrity) 230,775.00
Jump Sail: (4 Integrity) 56.00
Structural Integrity: 75 38,250.00
Total Heat Sinks: 600(1200) Double 2.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 21800 points 8,894.50  //2720 tons for triads, the remainder for the Warfather
Fire Control Computers: 13.00
Armor: 813 pts Lamellor Ferro-Carbide 765.00
Fore: 128
Fore-Left/Right: 127/127
Aft-Left/Right: 128/128
Aft: 127

Dropship Capacity: 0 0.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 0.00
Medium: 2 200.00
Large: 0.00
Escape Pods: 15 105.00
Life Boats: 15 105.00

Crew And Passengers:
31 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 310.00
116 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 812.00
36 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 252.00
720 Bay Personnel 0.00
1st Class Passengers 0.00
2nd Class Passengers 0.00
3120 Steerage Passengers 15,600.00

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
8x2x AMS (IS) Nose 16 48 (4.8-C) PDS 8.00
8x2x AMS (IS) Aft 16 48 (4.8-C) 8.00
8x2x AMS (IS) LBS 16 48 (4.8-C) 8.00
8x2x AMS (IS) RBS 16 48 (4.8-C) 8.00
4x3x+8x1x PPC ER+Cap (IS) FL 400 300 (30-C) 160.00
4x3x+8x1x PPC ER+Cap (IS) FR 400 300 (30-C) 160.00
3x3x+5x1x PPC ER+Cap (IS) AL 280 210 (21-C) 112.00
3x3x+5x1x PPC ER+Cap (IS) AR 280 210 (21-C) 112.00
1x4x Subcapital Laser 1 AL 96 40 (4-C) 600.00
1x4x Subcapital Laser 1 AR 96 40 (4-C) 600.00
8x2x LAMS (IS) LBS 112 48 (4.8-C) 24.00
8x2x LAMS (IS) RBS 112 48 (4.8-C) 24.00
8x2x LAMS (IS) Aft 112 48 (4.8-C) 24.00
8x2x LAMS (IS) Nose 112 48 (4.8-C) 24.00
2x1x Screen Launcher AL 20 30 (3-C) 80.00
2x1x Screen Launcher AR 20 30 (3-C) 80.00

Ammo Rounds Mass
AMS (IS) Ammo 1200 100.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 1200 100.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 1200 100.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 1200 100.00
Screen Launcher Ammo 10 100.00
Screen Launcher Ammo 10 100.00

Equipment Mass
Imager Hyperspectral 7.50
Imager Look-Down Radar 5.00
NCSS Large 500.00

Transport bays
80 Smallcraft
160 Aerospace Fighter
Cargo, Standard 13280 //Supplies for IS Triads
Cargo, Standard 2692.5 //Supplies for Warfather
Cargo, Standard 468.5 //extra transport
Fully loaded with Triads, the Warfather costs 9792.89944M or 122M/Triad.

Tradeoffs:
Size The optimal size is a tricky tradeoff.  Very small warships are quite expensive as they have high fixed costs.   Given this, a design with a cost of ~7B is desirable to amortize the cost.  On the other hand, carriers are limited by doors, with only one more door becoming available for every 100k tons, implying that a carrier warship should not be to large.  A third modest constraint comes from construction costs---jumpship have the cheapest yards, and they cannot support capacities much larger than 500K tons.   These concerns all seem to meet fairly well at 510K tons.

Speed Since ASF are so deadly in the the rules, it's highly desirable to be faster than them.  However, Warships going 8/12 are impossible, while warships going 6/9 or 7/12 are merely severely compromised in payload/protection at these capacities.  5/8 seems to be fastest speed that can also plausibly support a full complement of transported triads able to saturate the doors for 10 minutes.

AMS There are extensive antimissile systems here.  Baseline AMS is particularly good when massive swarms of missiles are incoming while laser AMS burns zero ammo when firing.  Both are light so arrays of these are mounted in pairs.  When a low intensity swarm is incoming, the laser AMS can be used preferentially, while with a high intensity swarm the ammunition based versions can fire.   

Weapons The weapons array is nearly entirely defensive.  The screen launchers are aft mounted for when fleeing opponents.  Quartets of SCL-1s provide some capital range attacks able to hit small craft consistently from beyond their firing range.  For close-in defense, arrays of ERPPCs provide a means to counter small numbers of ASF or smallcraft. 

Edits: fixed typo, detailed weapons bays, added link, adjusted weapons and tonnage to accommodate full supplies.
« Last Edit: 29 January 2022, 15:20:08 by Lagrange »

Daryk

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Re: A Warfather Carrier
« Reply #1 on: 15 January 2022, 19:11:19 »
What do SCL-1s have over ER-PPCs again?  I'm talking about the IS ones, of course...  ???

Andras

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Re: A Warfather Carrier
« Reply #2 on: 15 January 2022, 19:27:45 »
What do SCL-1s have over ER-PPCs again?  I'm talking about the IS ones, of course...  ???

SCL-1s have Long Capital range. Medium Capital range=Extreme Fighter scale range.

Also with Long-C range they can do orbital bombardments.


Daryk

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Re: A Warfather Carrier
« Reply #3 on: 15 January 2022, 20:04:33 »
I thought "Aerospace" range was the catergory...

idea weenie

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Re: A Warfather Carrier
« Reply #4 on: 15 January 2022, 21:23:31 »
SCL-1s have Long Capital range. Medium Capital range=Extreme Fighter scale range.

Also with Long-C range they can do orbital bombardments.

The fun part is that SCL-1 mass ~150 tons per.  IS ERPPC mass 7 tons per, plus another 8 tons for Double Heat Sinks to make each one heat neutral.
So if you are willing to give up one SCL-1, you can replace it with ten IS ERPPC, changing your damage profile for the SCLs in the Aft areas from:
Code: [Select]
4 Subcapital Laser 1 AL 96 40 (4-C) 600.00
4 Subcapital Laser 1 AR 96 40 (4-C) 600.00

To:
Code: [Select]
3 Subcapital Laser 1 AL 72 30 (3-C) 450.00
5 ISERPPC AL 75 50 (5-C) 35.00
1 Subcapital Laser 1 Aft 24 10 (1-C) 150.00
3 Subcapital Laser 1 AR 72 30 (3-C) 450.00
5 ISERPPC AR 75 50 (5-C) 35.00

You lose the quad-SCL for bracketing purposes, but any ASF wanting to close with your vessel have second thoughts.

The other detail is that SCL-1 are 220k C-Bills/ while ISERPPC are 300k C-Bills/, meaning your ship will wind up costing 5.56 Million C-Bills more.   So you will be spending less than a tenth of a percent more.

Hellraiser

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Re: A Warfather Carrier
« Reply #5 on: 15 January 2022, 21:39:27 »
What's with the oddball sized ASF & Shuttle allotments of 160 / 80 ?
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AlphaMirage

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Re: A Warfather Carrier
« Reply #6 on: 15 January 2022, 21:41:43 »
What's with the oddball sized ASF & Shuttle allotments of 160 / 80 ?

Its LaGrange's Triad system, uses LAMs, Aerofighters, and Small Craft as the main striking instruments.

Lagrange

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Re: A Warfather Carrier
« Reply #7 on: 15 January 2022, 22:24:37 »
SCL-1s have Long Capital range. Medium Capital range=Extreme Fighter scale range.
Yep.

Basically, we're paying an exorbitant tonnage cost to turkey shoot anyone on our tail with standard scale weapons who can't pull more than 4g.  I initially used NL55s, but they take up even more mass, and SCL's are better at hitting ASF & Smallcraft anyways.

Non-capital weapons can only reach to Long-capital ranges if you are using individual weapons rules (SO page 114), and I believe the only ones with similar-or-more range are: LB 2-x, Clan UAC-2, HVAC-2 and Extended LRMs.  HVACs are to explody and ExLRMs are vulnerable to point defense.  The LB 2-x would only do 1 standard damage in the extreme range band per TO rules, so you would need 10 of them (~75 tons with ammo and crew?) to reach the damage of an SCL1.  This would trip the fire control limits, so you also start paying mass for the other weapons in those arcs.  Overall, I think you come out a little bit ahead, but it's messy, a minor tonnage win, a minor cost lose, and you need to worry about the right amount of ammo for an extreme range fight.  The SCL1 is simpler/cleaner solution that works even when individual weapons are not in play.  If the fighting gets close, which we are avoiding by design and doctrine, the "real" weapons are in the improved heavy gauss bays and possibly the screen launchers.

Also with Long-C range they can do orbital bombardments.

It's a good point about orbital bombardment.  (I tend to forget about it tactically as its rather sloppy for many tasks.)  But yes the SCL1 are good weapons for that as they can fire together every minute for days.  80 damage on the attack from above table adds up fast.

Its LaGrange's Triad system, uses LAMs, Aerofighters, and Small Craft as the main striking instruments.

At the moment, I'm thinking we should have 3 kinds of triads.
Beachhead/smash&grab is 2 ASF, 1 support smallcraft+track, 1 LAM, and 8 battle armor.
Ground combat is 2 ASF, 1 support smallcraft+track, 6 5-ton VTOLs, and 4 battle armor.
Space combat is 2 ASF, 1 Piranha smallcraft, and 8 battle armor.
These all use the same quarters and transport tonnage. 

Daryk

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Re: A Warfather Carrier
« Reply #8 on: 16 January 2022, 06:05:55 »
I'm looking at TW page 303 and TM page 341.  ER Large Lasers and ER PPcs are both given an Aerospace Range of Long.  Light Gaus Rifles and the advanced AC/2s even get Extreme.  The orbital bombardment angle is certainly true.  But if it's ASF you're worried about, I think you're better off with ER PPCs.  If you would rather layer your defenses, a pair of LGRs and a pair of ER Large Lasers would get you the same damage at Long (4-C), and half damage at Extreme (rounding FTW!).

Lagrange

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Re: A Warfather Carrier
« Reply #9 on: 16 January 2022, 07:33:47 »
I'm looking at TW page 303 and TM page 341.  ER Large Lasers and ER PPcs are both given an Aerospace Range of Long.  Light Gaus Rifles and the advanced AC/2s even get Extreme.  The orbital bombardment angle is certainly true.  But if it's ASF you're worried about, I think you're better off with ER PPCs.  If you would rather layer your defenses, a pair of LGRs and a pair of ER Large Lasers would get you the same damage at Long (4-C), and half damage at Extreme (rounding FTW!).
The range of SCL/1 is Long-C according to TO page 410 which is 40 hexes according to TW page 235.  A standard aerospace long range is just 20 hexes per TW page 235.

The SCL/1's advantage vs. a standard extreme weapon like the light gauss at each range is:
  • 0-6: +0-+0=+0
  • 7-20: +0-+2=-2 or +2-+4=-2
  • 21-24: +2-+6=-4
  • 25: +4-+6=-2
  • 26-40: +4-+inf=-inf
Altogether, the SCL/1 can hit further or with pulse-like advantages in range brackets other than standard short. 

There is some modification to the details of the above logic if using individual weapons rules on SO page 114-115, but the basic outcome remains the same.  This is what I was referring to in my earlier reply.  Makes sense?

Code: [Select]
3 Subcapital Laser 1 AL 72 30 (3-C) 450.00
5 ISERPPC AL 75 50 (5-C) 35.00
1 Subcapital Laser 1 Aft 24 10 (1-C) 150.00
3 Subcapital Laser 1 AR 72 30 (3-C) 450.00
5 ISERPPC AR 75 50 (5-C) 35.00
There is a significant fire control tonnage penalty here as well as reducing long-capital damage.  From the aft arc, you pick up 19 tons of FC.  From the aft-side arcs, you pick up 85 tons each, so you end up using almost 200 extra tons.

(note: there was a cut&paste error.  The design is not over the fire control limits in the aft-side arcs, it's at them.  I updated the OP.)
« Last Edit: 16 January 2022, 08:08:03 by Lagrange »

Daryk

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Re: A Warfather Carrier
« Reply #10 on: 16 January 2022, 08:36:22 »
Thanks for the clarifications!  :thumbsup:

Lagrange

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Re: A Warfather Carrier
« Reply #11 on: 16 January 2022, 10:04:11 »
Thanks for the clarifications!  :thumbsup:
Great.

I added a link to the worksheet and detailed the weapons bays in the OP.

Daryk

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Re: A Warfather Carrier
« Reply #12 on: 16 January 2022, 10:35:37 »
I had forgotten the difference between "aerospace" and "capital" ranges.  That tells you how long it's been since I played out a space battle, as much as I think they are key to how the BT universe works.  :-\

Andras

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Re: A Warfather Carrier
« Reply #13 on: 16 January 2022, 11:16:12 »
This is a good thread to read on Capital AA vs Fighters. SubCap Lasers using AA mode is pretty nasty. Barracudas are deadly as long as the ammo holds out.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/aerospace-combat/a-study-of-capital-aa/


Naval lasers have at best a 16% chance to hit at medium range and a 27% chance at short range.

SubCap Lasers change that to 16% at long, 41% at medium and 58% at short.

Daryk

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Re: A Warfather Carrier
« Reply #14 on: 16 January 2022, 11:41:17 »
Is that in AA mode, or normal?  ???

Andras

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Re: A Warfather Carrier
« Reply #15 on: 16 January 2022, 12:27:09 »
Is that in AA mode, or normal?  ???

Bracket at medium, AA mode at short. Taking best option at each range.

Daryk

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Re: A Warfather Carrier
« Reply #16 on: 16 January 2022, 17:54:49 »
Makes sense!  :thumbsup:

 

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