Can Naval C3 compensate for a lack of Bracketing?

[UnLimiTeD]

Due to a side conversion in the WSotW Texas thread, I wondered if the Naval Gauss weapon has any redeeming features, aside being better than NAC10s.
Their size and damage numbers make them both tonnage inefficient and cumbersome to bracket with.
Fluffwise, they have other advantages - durability and low ammo cost - but we rarely see a fight between warships anyways, so how likely is it that plays into anyone's consideration?

But, similar to massdrivers, limitations could make for more interesting gameplay (only unlike massdrivers, NGauss are actually usable weapons). So, a concept:

Code: [Select]

Proof of Concept Iteration 1
Base Tech Level: Experimental (IS)
Level          Era
-------------------
Experimental  3145+
Advanced        - 
Standard        - 
Tech Rating: F/X-X-X-X

Weight: 1720000 tons
BV: 360,257
Cost: 40,527,322,000 C-bills

Movement: 3/5
Heat Sinks: 1000 [2000]
Fuel Points: 0/87500 (35000.0 tons)
Tons Per Burn Day: 39.52

Structural Integrity: 55
Sail Integrity: 7
KF Drive Integrity: 34
Armor: 1928 (Capital Scale) (Lamellor Ferro-Carbide)
                  Armor 
-------------------------
Nose                328 
Left Front Side     320 
Right Front Side    320 
Aft                 320 
Aft Left Side       320 
Aft Right Side      320 

Weapons                                   Loc  Heat 
-----------------------------------------------------

AMS Bay                                   NOS   35   
5 Laser AMS                                                                                 
AMS Bay                                   RBS   35   
5 Laser AMS                                                                                 
AMS Bay                                   AFT   35   
5 Laser AMS                                                                             
AMS Bay                                   LBS   35   
5 Laser AMS           

Capital Gauss Bay                         FLS   42   
1 Light, 1 Medium, 1 Heavy       
Capital Gauss Bay                         FRS   42   
1 Light, 1 Medium, 1 Heavy       
Capital Gauss Bay                         ARS   42   
1 Light, 1 Medium, 1 Heavy     
Capital Gauss Bay                         ALS   42   
1 Light, 1 Medium, 1 Heavy     
3x Capital Gauss Bay                    LBS   42 x3 
1 Light, 1 Medium, 1 Heavy                                       
3x Capital Gauss Bay                    RBS   42 x3   
1 Light, 1 Medium, 1 Heavy           
3x Capital Gauss Bay                    LBS   36 x3 
2 Naval Gauss (Heavy)                                                                                         
3x Capital Gauss Bay                    RBS   36 x3
2 Naval Gauss (Heavy)                                                                 

AR10 Bay                                  FLS   40   
2 Capital Missile Launcher (AR10 Launcher)             
AR10 Bay                                  FRS   40   
2 Capital Missile Launcher (AR10 Launcher)             
AR10 Bay                                  ALS   40   
2 Capital Missile Launcher (AR10 Launcher)             
AR10 Bay                                  ARS   40   
2 Capital Missile Launcher (AR10 Launcher)             
Sub-Capital Laser Bay                     FRS   96   
4 Sub-Capital Laser (SCL/1)                           
Sub-Capital Laser Bay                     FLS   96   
4 Sub-Capital Laser (SCL/1)                           
Sub-Capital Laser Bay                     ALS   96   
4 Sub-Capital Laser (SCL/1)                           
Sub-Capital Laser Bay                     ARS   96   
4 Sub-Capital Laser (SCL/1)                           
Sub-Capital Missile Bay                   FLS   27   
3 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)               
Sub-Capital Missile Bay                   FRS   27   
3 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)               
Sub-Capital Missile Bay                   ALS   27   
3 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)               
Sub-Capital Missile Bay                   ARS   27   
3 Sub-Capital Missile Launcher (Piranha)               

Capital PPC Bay                           ALS   900 
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                                   
Capital PPC Bay                           ARS   900 
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                                   
Screen Launcher Bay                       AFT   10   
Screen Launcher                                     
Screen Launcher Ammo                       20       
Screen Launcher Bay                       NOS   10   
Screen Launcher                                     
Screen Launcher Ammo                       20       


Equipment                         Loc 
---------------------------------------
Naval C3                          NOS 
Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Small)  NOS 

Carrying Capacity
-----------------
Aerospace Fighter (2 doors) - 60 units (2 recovery open)
Aerospace Fighter (2 doors) - 60 units (2 recovery open)
Small Craft (2 doors) - 24 units (2 recovery open)
Dropships - 8 units
Battle Armor Bay (1 door) - 10 Squads
Cargo Space (1 door) - 131,079 tons

Crew                   
-----------------------
Officers            120
Enlisted/Non-rated  269
Gunners             100
Bay Personnel       420
Passengers           20
Marines              60
BA Marines           60

To save you the reading, the ship concentrates a bevy of NGauss Turrets (Asymetric 3-Gun arrangements and heavy double turrets) on the ships sides, using the heavy damage of each singular gun to save extra firecontrol weight. Yes, I'm aware I could use PPCs and have guns so much lighter that weight wouldn't be an issue.
All capital armament reaches extreme range, but with possible bracket fire bonuses of -1 and -2, it won't hit often.
The idea here is to use the Naval C3, with either another warship or a heavily armoured assault dropship, to spot for the Gauss Carrier, allowing more accurate fire.
I wonder if that's actually practical.
So, I know it's not optimal, it's not even finished, but it might make for an interesting game.

[Andras]

Would it be better to use 2 mediumNG and one lightNG for the three gun turrets? You give up 5 points of damage, but gain 1500tons per turret and don't have to carry a 3rd type of ammo.

[UnLimiTeD]

Hmm, weight-wise, I guess that could be done.
The medium is the most tonnage efficient. - I just looked it up, it's also the most cost efficient.
However, given that the ship has 8 dual heavy gauss bays, the carrying of ammunition is probably not a concern. 

[Andras]

Hmm, weight-wise, I guess that could be done.
The medium is the most tonnage efficient. - I just looked it up, it's also the most cost efficient.
However, given that the ship has 8 dual heavy gauss bays, the carrying of ammunition is probably not a concern. 

Err, I only see 6, three on each BS. But you could trade out those three twin HNG bays for two triple Mixed NG bays. You lose one bay, but they can bracket to +2, making each one have a better to hit.

And did you include ammo for the NGauss, AR10s and SubCap missiles? I only see ammo counts for the screen launchers.

[UnLimiTeD]

Ah, yes, I shortened the List to make it easier to read.
Each gun has at least 15 shots to it's own.
Though Gauss Ammo is so light I might as well give them 100.
You're right, too. I think I replaced the aft-side H-Gauss Bay with PPCs.
I tried replacing all the Gauss bays with PPCs today, and as expected, it saves a few tons. Far less than expected, though.
I'm aware I could reduce throwweight for accuracy, and that's probably a good idea, but...  the whole point was not doing that. 
Well, or as said above, just pick PPCs and get the best of both worlds with tonnage to spare. :/
Edit: Concentrating on mediums would make sense economically, however. Not everyone is Lyran.
It's quite ironic that the Medium would probably be better off dealing 22.5 or 23 damage, as it should if there was an even progression from light to heavy. It's weight and cost certainly indicate such a damage curve.

[Andras]

Here's a different spin:

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Class/Model/Name: Gneisenau
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $22,549,178,004.00
Magazine Cost: $61,600,000.00
BV2: 245,156

Mass: 1,780,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-Carbide
Armament:
40 Naval Gauss Rifle Medium
20 Naval Gauss Rifle Light
12 Naval PPC Heavy
8 Naval PPC Medium
12 Capital Launcher Killer Whale
20 Capital Launcher Barracuda
32 Gauss Rifle (IS)
48 PPC ER (IS)
48 AMS (IS)

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 320,400.00
Thrust
Safe: 3
Maximum: 5

Controls: 4,450.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (35 Integrity) 805,450.00
Jump Sail: (7 Integrity) 119.00
Structural Integrity: 100 178,000.00
Total Heat Sinks: 2356(4712) Double 1,511.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 18750 points 7,650.00
Fire Control Computers: 888.00

Armor: 3620 pts Lamellor Ferro-Carbide 3,560.00
Fore: 602
Fore-Left/Right: 604/604
Aft-Left/Right: 604/604
Aft: 602

Dropship Capacity: 4 4,000.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 4 200.00
Medium: 0 0.00
Large: 0.00
Escape Pods: 48 336.00
Life Boats: 48 336.00

Crew And Passengers:
88 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 880.00
313 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 2,191.00
126 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 882.00
196 Bay Personnel 0.00
2 1st Class Passengers 20.00

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
10 Naval Gauss Rifle Med FR 150 2500 (250-C) Extreme-C 55,000.00
5 Naval Gauss Rifle Light FR 45 750 (75-C) Extreme-C 22,500.00
10 Naval Gauss Rifle Med FL 150 2500 (250-C) Extreme-C 55,000.00
5 Naval Gauss Rifle Light FL 45 750 (75-C) Extreme-C 22,500.00
10 Naval Gauss Rifle Med AR 150 2500 (250-C) Extreme-C 55,000.00
5 Naval Gauss Rifle Light AR 45 750 (75-C) Extreme-C 22,500.00
10 Naval Gauss Rifle Med AL 150 2500 (250-C) Extreme-C 55,000.00
5 Naval Gauss Rifle Light AL 45 750 (75-C) Extreme-C 22,500.00
3 Naval PPC Heavy FR 675 450 (45-C) Extreme-C 9,000.00
2 Naval PPC Medium FR 270 180 (18-C) Extreme-C 3,600.00
3 Naval PPC Heavy FL 675 450 (45-C) Extreme-C 9,000.00
2 Naval PPC Medium FL 270 180 (18-C) Extreme-C 3,600.00
3 Naval PPC Heavy AR 675 450 (45-C) Extreme-C 9,000.00
2 Naval PPC Medium AR 270 180 (18-C) Extreme-C 3,600.00
3 Naval PPC Heavy AL 675 450 (45-C) Extreme-C 9,000.00
2 Naval PPC Medium AL 270 180 (18-C) Extreme-C 3,600.00
3 Capital Launcher Killer Whale Nose 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 450.00
3 Capital Launcher Killer Whale RBS 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 450.00
3 Capital Launcher Killer Whale LBS 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 450.00
3 Capital Launcher Killer Whale Aft 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 450.00
5 Capital Launcher Barracuda Nose 50 100 (10-C) Extreme-C 450.00
5 Capital Launcher Barracuda RBS 50 100 (10-C) Extreme-C 450.00
5 Capital Launcher Barracuda LBS 50 100 (10-C) Extreme-C 450.00
5 Capital Launcher Barracuda Aft 50 100 (10-C) Extreme-C 450.00
8 Gauss Rifle (IS) Nose 8 120 (12-C) Long 120.00
8 Gauss Rifle (IS) RBS 8 120 (12-C) Long 120.00
8 Gauss Rifle (IS) LBS 8 120 (12-C) Long 120.00
8 Gauss Rifle (IS) Aft 8 120 (12-C) Long 120.00
12 PPC ER (IS) Nose 180 120 (12-C) Long 84.00
12 PPC ER (IS) RBS 180 120 (12-C) Long 84.00
12 PPC ER (IS) LBS 180 120 (12-C) Long 84.00
12 PPC ER (IS) Aft 180 120 (12-C) Long 84.00
12 AMS (IS) Nose 12 36 (3.6-C) PDS 6.00
12 AMS (IS) RBS 12 36 (3.6-C) PDS 6.00
12 AMS (IS) LBS 12 36 (3.6-C) PDS 6.00
12 AMS (IS) Aft 12 36 (3.6-C) PDS 6.00

Ammo Rounds Mass
Naval Gauss Rifle Medium Ammo 1600 640.00
Naval Gauss Rifle Light Ammo 800 160.00
Capital Launcher Killer Whale Ammo 120 6,000.00
Capital Launcher Barracuda Ammo 200 6,000.00
Gauss Rifle (IS) Ammo 960 120.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 9600 800.00

Equipment Mass
Naval C3 17,800.00
Cargo: 45,752t (4 doors)
Infantry: 84
Fighters: 36  (12 doors)
Small Craft: 8  (4 doors)



N-Gauss in 5x 65pt bays (2Med+1Lt) per corner arc;
NPPC in 1x63pt bay per corner arc.

The Barracuda and KW tubes together weigh less then 4 AR10s in each location, and can specialize in hunting fighters or dropships respectively.

Heatsinks sufficient for all except one corner arc, plus 60 extra DHS for 10 additional AMS volleys.



   

[UnLimiTeD]

Uhm... if your output is anything to go by...  you forgot the actual C3 system? 

[Andras]

Uhm... if your output is anything to go by...  you forgot the actual C3 system? 

It's in there, it's a bit more to the right on the TRO output and I forgot to copy it.
See Equipment section above.

[UnLimiTeD]

Well, that then shows what I've been expecting - more lighter guns are still better, as are medium N-Gauss in relation to heavies.
A pity, really. The Heavy's have character.
Though I still like AR-10s, that's a lot of flexibility for only one gun slot.
After all, if I wanted actual anti-fighter firepower and had the slots, I could just mount more Piranhas. ^^

[Lagrange]

W.r.t the original question, the answer seems to be "yes", in the sense that if you can arrange to always be effectively firing from short range there is no need to bracket. 

The most easy way to do this that I know of is using 5x 400 ton naval C3 dropship spotters.  The spotters can be fast and heavily armored doing staggered passes of a target to allow several rounds of short-range contact from extreme range.  Since the dropships are under 500 tons, they are not easily targeted by capital weapons.  Also, since they are small, the interaction of 100K/ton cost for Naval C3 and the x28 dropship multiplier can be minimized.

W.r.t. Naval Gauss, a Light Naval Gauss has the largest range of any weapon using individual weapon ranges (SO page 115) providing potential niche use on a raider.  The 2 Medium NGauss + 1 Light NGauss bay seems reasonably compelling as a half-damage-but-extreme-range NAC alternative... sort of an HNPPC, but with less fire control and more damage in high speed engagements.  The Heavy NGauss seems underwhelming.  If it did 35-C damage rather than 30-C that would change.

[Andras]

Ok, just for yucks, I did up a NAC armed counterpart for Sneezies Ngauss battery:
This one is 4/6 with better armor to get in close.

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name: Scharnhorst
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $20,603,732,004.00
Magazine Cost: $152,840,000.00
BV2: 291,773

Mass: 1,790,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-Carbide

Armament:
48 Naval AC 20
32 Naval AC 30
12 Capital Launcher Killer Whale
20 Capital Launcher Barracuda
40 Gauss Rifle Heavy Improved
40 PPC ER (IS)
48 AMS (IS)

Ammo Rounds Mass
Naval AC 20 Ammo 2880 1,152.00
Naval AC 30 Ammo 1920 1,536.00
Capital Launcher Killer Whale Ammo 132 6,600.00
Capital Launcher Barracuda Ammo 220 6,600.00
Gauss Rifle Heavy Improved Ammo 2120 530.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 9600 800.00

Equipment Mass
Naval C3 17,900.00
36 fighters
8 Small Craft
3 platoons infantry
49,000tons cargo

Class/Model/Name: Scharnhorst
Mass: 1,790,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 429,600.00
Thrust
Safe: 4
Maximum: 6
Controls: 4,475.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (35 Integrity) 809,975.00
Jump Sail: (7 Integrity) 120.00
Structural Integrity: 108 193,320.00
Total Heat Sinks: 2886(5772) Double 1,915.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 18900 points 7,711.20
Fire Control Computers: 940.80
Armor: 3932 pts Lamellor Ferro-Carbide 3,866.00
Fore: 656
Fore-Left/Right: 655/655
Aft-Left/Right: 655/655
Aft: 656

Dropship Capacity: 4 4,000.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 4 200.00
Medium: 0 0.00
Large: 0.00
Escape Pods: 48 336.00
Life Boats: 48 336.00

Crew And Passengers:
89 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 890.00
314 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 2,198.00
126 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 882.00
196 Bay Personnel 0.00
2 1st Class Passengers 20.00
196 2nd Class Passengers 1,372.00



# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
12 Naval AC 20 FR 720 2400 (240-C) Long-C 30,000.00
8 Naval AC 30 FR 800 2400 (240-C) Long-C 28,000.00
12 Naval AC 20 FL 720 2400 (240-C) Long-C 30,000.00
8 Naval AC 30 FL 800 2400 (240-C) Long-C 28,000.00
12 Naval AC 20 AR 720 2400 (240-C) Long-C 30,000.00
8 Naval AC 30 AR 800 2400 (240-C) Long-C 28,000.00
12 Naval AC 20 AL 720 2400 (240-C) Long-C 30,000.00
8 Naval AC 30 AL 800 2400 (240-C) Long-C 28,000.00
3 Capital Launcher Killer Whale Nose 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 450.00
3 Capital Launcher Killer Whale RBS 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 450.00
3 Capital Launcher Killer Whale LBS 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 450.00
3 Capital Launcher Killer Whale Aft 60 120 (12-C) Extreme-C 450.00
5 Capital Launcher Barracuda Nose 50 100 (10-C) Extreme-C 450.00
5 Capital Launcher Barracuda RBS 50 100 (10-C) Extreme-C 450.00
5 Capital Launcher Barracuda LBS 50 100 (10-C) Extreme-C 450.00
5 Capital Launcher Barracuda Aft 50 100 (10-C) Extreme-C 450.00
10 Gauss Rifle Heavy Improved Nose 20 220 (22-C) Long 200.00
10 Gauss Rifle Heavy Improved RBS 20 220 (22-C) Long 200.00
10 Gauss Rifle Heavy Improved LBS 20 220 (22-C) Long 200.00
10 Gauss Rifle Heavy Improved Aft 20 220 (22-C) Long 200.00
10 PPC ER (IS) Nose 150 100 (10-C) Long 70.00
10 PPC ER (IS) RBS 150 100 (10-C) Long 70.00
10 PPC ER (IS) LBS 150 100 (10-C) Long 70.00
10 PPC ER (IS) Aft 150 100 (10-C) Long 70.00
12 AMS (IS) Nose 12 36 (3.6-C) PDS 6.00
12 AMS (IS) RBS 12 36 (3.6-C) PDS 6.00
12 AMS (IS) LBS 12 36 (3.6-C) PDS 6.00
12 AMS (IS) Aft 12 36 (3.6-C) PDS 6.00

NACs are in triple NAC20s and twin NAC30 turrets, for a total of 8x60pt NAC bays per arc. Heatsinks for three corner arcs and all others, plus 5 extra AMS volleys. Missiles and Secondary weapons mostly the same except I used ImpHeavyGRs and evened out the numbers. It is extremely ammo dependent, but it does have 60 shots per NAC and 12 shots per Barracuda tube.

[UnLimiTeD]

Larger ACs are the only naval guns that are actually more tonnage efficient than 1 capital damage per 200 tons.
Pity about the range, but closing from extreme to long range is usually possible.
A bit off the topic, though; You can hardly use C3 well with limited range, unless you are the spotter. Which you probably don't want to be your warship.

I think if it's about raw damage, I prefer dual medium N-Gauss turrets to NACs - they get range when you need it, and their dmg/ton isn't all that bad.
With the few modern ships nowadays normally being built like a brick, thresholding isn't always possible anyways.
Just like with ground troops, the rules created by tptb often offer ideal designs that are far different from what moves around in universe.