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Author Topic: Devilbane dogfighter  (Read 979 times)

Lagrange

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Devilbane dogfighter
« on: 13 November 2021, 10:56:58 »
The Devilbane is a cheap and capable dogfighter for defensive use at planets and orbital facilities.  It's on the fast end of medium ASF (7/11), armed with an emphasis on short range firepower like many medium fighters, armored like a heavy fighter, and yet still requires only a light fighter's maintenance.  It eschews almost all advanced technologies in favor of a dirt cheap price tag enabling quantity.  With a cost near 1/4 of a Workhorse, I'm estimating two of these are slightly superior to a Workhorse in terms of force.

Any suggestions for how to improve this further?

Code: [Select]
Devilbane Dogfighter

Mass: 45 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 225 Fusion
Armor: Heavy Ferro-Aluminum
Armament:
     2 ER Medium Laser
     10 Small Laser
     2 Medium Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-D
Cost: 2,761,089 C-bills

Type: Devilbane
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 45
Battle Value: 1,611

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        225 Fusion             10
Safe Thrust: 7
Max Thrust: 11
Structural Integrity:         7                       
Heat Sinks:                   10 [20]                 0
Fuel:                         400                   5.0
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor (Heavy Ferro)    357                    18

                           Armor 
                           Value 
     Nose                   108   
     Wings                 87/87 
     Aft                     75   


Weapons
and Ammo              Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
2 Medium Laser          NOS       2.0      3      5    0    0    0 
2 ER Medium Laser       NOS       2.0      5      5    5    0    0 
4 Small Laser           RWG       2.0      1      3    0    0    0 
4 Small Laser           LWG       2.0      1      3    0    0    0 
2 Small Laser           AFT       1.0      1      3    0    0    0 

(Thanks to DevianID and Daryk for helping me understand the right role for a dogfighter---I hadn't appreciated the defensive use aspect, nor that it was possible to achieve a good factor of 2 improvement in force / cost at dogfighter accelerations.)

One element that I'm still debating here is the lack of OMNI capability.  OMNI has a real cost, but it also has a real value.  The value is much less here than for the Workhorse, because there are only 9 tons to work with.  As far as I can tell, the ability to carry infantry is the only useful alternate application.

Edit: upgraded 2 ML to ERML
« Last Edit: 15 November 2021, 08:14:11 by Lagrange »

DOC_Agren

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Re: Devilbane dogfighter
« Reply #1 on: 13 November 2021, 20:03:54 »
??  why not move 2 ML to the Nose?

as for the Omni mod, I would not go for it.  I'm not sure cost versus benefit are worth it.

"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

Lagrange

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Re: Devilbane dogfighter
« Reply #2 on: 13 November 2021, 21:57:05 »
??  why not move 2 ML to the Nose?
There are 4 ML in the Nose already?

as for the Omni mod, I would not go for it.  I'm not sure cost versus benefit are worth it.
I tend to agree.  The Workhorse provides over 4x the omni capacity for less than 4x the price, so perhaps that can be the alternative.

DevianID

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Re: Devilbane dogfighter
« Reply #3 on: 14 November 2021, 04:42:44 »
So a 50 ton fighter, while more expensive, can carry an alamo... just saying.  Or 2 AD arrows for intercepting at medium range before your lasers come online.  Another thing, ER mediums are the king of medium range in the age of heavy ferro, so I would use them in combination with standard smalls (which are the king of short range).

Overall, I like the fighter for a budget fighter, as it hits a lot of my boxes.  I can see keeping 45 tons as the compromise to keep the budget down, but ER mediums are clutch.

Lagrange

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Re: Devilbane dogfighter
« Reply #4 on: 14 November 2021, 07:12:20 »
So a 50 ton fighter, while more expensive, can carry an alamo... just saying. 
Alamos don't actually seem that attractive.  Using them defensively on the ground seems iffy from the perspective of not wanting to live on an irradiate planet. 

In space, a prepared opponent using appropriate point defense the cost of an Alamo attack is quite high.  They only have medium range, cost 1M/shot, and are shot down by point defense of 2.  In return they only do 1 capital damage / bomb slot with a 1-in-6 chance of an outright kill.

An Antiship missile fires from medium capital range, only costs 15K/shot, and requires point defense 3 to shoot down.  They do only .5 capital/bomb slot and have a 1-in-36 chance of a critical hit.

The best case, against a prepared opponent, is delivering the Alamos in the middle of a wave of Antiship missiles which soak up point defense.  But having enough Antiship missiles to soak up point defense yet not enough to kill the target outright is a limited window.

In any case, the plan is to use the Workhorse as the bomb truck.  They can deliver up to 5 Alamos between external ordinance and internal bomb bays.
Or 2 AD arrows for intercepting at medium range before your lasers come online. 
Using an Air-to-Air arrow + 2 light A2A arrows seems like a reasonable alternative.
Another thing, ER mediums are the king of medium range in the age of heavy ferro, so I would use them in combination with standard smalls (which are the king of short range).
There's a heat issue here.  If you swap all the MLs to ERMLs, the short range excess heat for the forward firing weapons goes to 8.  You can do less damage instead, but a 20% reduction in short range damage is not great given how dominant that range is during a dogfight.

I'm wondering about a compromise.  If you have 2 MLs and 2 ERMLs, the excess heat drops to 4 and Nose + one wing has excess heat 0.  That's at most a 10% reduction in short range damage, often 0%, and overheat by 4 is more friendly than overheat by 8.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Devilbane dogfighter
« Reply #5 on: 14 November 2021, 07:21:44 »
I think that it seems good - it is cheap but quite nimble, while have enough firepower to punch the six and withstand enough punishment meanwhile. Just... why not to make it a star league era unit? I think that it is not half bad to make it a star league era and add the variants for the various era since star league.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Devilbane dogfighter
« Reply #6 on: 14 November 2021, 07:25:30 »
For the upgraded version, I'd replace the lasers to pulse versions, and for jihad or later era it is also doable to add Targeting Computer for enjoy extreme accuracy.

wolfgar

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Re: Devilbane dogfighter
« Reply #7 on: 14 November 2021, 18:41:47 »
heres a dogfighter/interceptor for you for comparison at half the weight. would use drop tanks to extend loiter time but eh

Code: [Select]
Sabre SB-28B

Mass: 25 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 225 XL
Cruising Speed: 118.8 kph
Maximum Speed: 183.6 kph
Armor: Ferro-Aluminum
Armament:
     1 Light PPC
     2 Medium Pulse Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3070
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-E-X
Cost: 3,157,031 C-bills

Type: Sabre
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 25
Battle Value: 768

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        225 XL                  5
Safe Thrust: 11
Max Thrust: 17
Structural Integrity:         11                       
Heat Sinks:                   10 [20]                 0
Fuel:                         400                   5.0
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor (Ferro)          89                      5

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    26   
     Wings                 21/21   
     Aft                     21   


Weapons
and Ammo              Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
Light PPC               NOS       3.0      5      5    5    0    0 
Medium Pulse Laser      RWG       2.0      4      6    0    0    0 
Medium Pulse Laser      LWG       2.0      4      6    0    0    0 


Wolf wins every fight but one, and in that one he dies, his fangs locked on the throat of his opponent.

DOC_Agren

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Re: Devilbane dogfighter
« Reply #8 on: 14 November 2021, 19:49:07 »
There are 4 ML in the Nose already?
I tend to agree.  The Workhorse provides over 4x the omni capacity for less than 4x the price, so perhaps that can be the alternative.
for some reason when I looked I thought they were mounted in the wings.. need to read better
« Last Edit: 14 November 2021, 19:55:48 by DOC_Agren »
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

DOC_Agren

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Re: Devilbane dogfighter
« Reply #9 on: 14 November 2021, 19:55:34 »
I like your Sabre SB-28B wolfgar
now a question MPL would 2 ML or 2 ERML be worth swapping too
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

DevianID

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Re: Devilbane dogfighter
« Reply #10 on: 14 November 2021, 23:34:18 »
Eh the sabre isn't really in the budget for the OP.  I challenged his assault brick and through testing he was trying to hit a price point that makes a swarm of planetary fighters have both the armor and firepower to get punched in the face by an angry brick and hurt it back.

The XL sabre is a great interceptor, fast at 10/15 AFTER the reduction from carrying 5 rocket pods or an arrow missile, making it a good interplanetary fighter to bring on an invasion fleet; not so good for filling the skys with fighters eating bricks for breakfast.

Lagrange

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Re: Devilbane dogfighter
« Reply #11 on: 15 November 2021, 08:38:44 »
I changed the OP to the 2ERML/2ML version.  This is a 'downgrade' from the viewpoint of heat management or cost, but:
heres a dogfighter/interceptor for you for comparison...
this is a good example showing the value of medium range weapons since it's fast enough to stay out of range and use them.  With the ERMLs that is no longer true.

Role-wise, the Sabre doesn't fit what we want since it costs to much and is very delicate---even the small lasers cause critical hits.
Just... why not to make it a star league era unit?
Oh, it could be---I've been more worried about the tradeoffs than the era.
For the upgraded version, I'd replace the lasers to pulse versions, and for jihad or later era it is also doable to add Targeting Computer for enjoy extreme accuracy.
Pulse halves your maximum damage output which seems like a lose. 

A targeting computer is interesting.  You lose on maximum damage, but you could remove the rear small lasers and downgrade the 2MLs to 2SLs.  In a 1-on-1 dogfighter situation, that might end up being a lose due.  But in a 4-on-4 (where initiative matters less), it could be favorable? It's also nice that this zeros out heat concerns.