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Author Topic: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.  (Read 1326 times)

kashim12

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I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« on: 26 December 2021, 22:39:10 »
I designed it based of the Vulcan ASF, and could use some second opinions.

idea weenie

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #1 on: 27 December 2021, 02:00:59 »
36 heat dissipation vs 33 from weapons, of which 20 is the Long Tom Cannon in the nose?  I'd recommend dropping a couple Heat Sinks for other equipment.  Price won't be an object since you are using an XXL engine (~52 million C-Bills).

From the title I am guessing you will be having this ASF hang back and engage Dropships from range, using its heavy armor (23.5 tons on an 80-ton platform) to survive the return fire.

Coldstone

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #2 on: 27 December 2021, 07:25:36 »
I once designed a machine too for use against Drop AND Warships. I named it Butcherbird, after the nickname the allied forces gave the Focke Wulf FW190.

I is intended as a lyran Design, using three ULTRA 20s.

Code: [Select]
                    AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
                                  VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name:  Butcherbird
Tech:              Inner Sphere / 3067
Vessel Type:       Aerospace Fighter
Rules:             Level 3, Standard design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              100 tons
Power Plant:       300 XL Fusion
Safe Thrust:       5
Maximum Thrust:    8
Armor Type:        *Heavy Ferro Aluminium*
Armament:         
    3 Ultra AC/20

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Butcherbird
Mass:              100 tons

Equipment:                                                              Mass
Power Plant:  300 XL Fusion                                              9,50
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 5
      Maximum Thrust: 8
Structural Integrity: 10                                                  ,00
Total Heat Sinks:    24 Double                                          14,00
Fuel:                                                                    4,00
Cockpit & Attitude Thrusters:                                            3,00
Armor Type:  *Heavy Ferro Aluminium*  (248 total armor pts)             12,50
                           Standard Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Nose:                                 83
   Left/Right Wings:                  62/62
   Aft:                                  41


Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 Ultra AC/20              Nose        30     30     --     --   48     45,00
  Ammo (Ult AC/20) 60      ---                                          12,00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                                    Heat: 48    100,00
Tons Left:                                                                ,00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        16.669.950 C-Bills
Battle Value:      2.152
Cost per BV:       7.746,26
Weapon Value:      2.265 (Ratio = 1,05)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 83;  MRV = 65;  LRV = 0;  ERV = 0
BattleForce2:      MP: 5,  Armor/Structure: 6 / 0
                   Damage PB/M/L: 9/9/-,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: FH;  Point Value: 22

After I designed this, I experimented with different Loadouts. The final design then uses 5 Rotary 5. The Danger her is when this fighter is used as a Squadron, creating a Weaponbay, which can easily penetrate the Damage thressholds of most Warships (except the Leviathan 2).

Code: [Select]
                    AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
                                  VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name:  Butcherbird MK II
Tech:              Inner Sphere / 3067
Vessel Type:       Aerospace Fighter
Rules:             Level 3, Standard design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              100 tons
Power Plant:       300 XL Fusion
Safe Thrust:       5
Maximum Thrust:    8
Armor Type:        *Heavy Ferro Aluminium*
Armament:         
    5 Rotary AC/5

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Butcherbird MK II
Mass:              100 tons

Equipment:                                                              Mass
Power Plant:  300 XL Fusion                                              9,50
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 5
      Maximum Thrust: 8
Structural Integrity: 10                                                  ,00
Total Heat Sinks:    15 Double                                           5,00
Fuel:                                                                    4,00
Cockpit & Attitude Thrusters:                                            3,00
Armor Type:  *Heavy Ferro Aluminium*  (268 total armor pts)             13,50
                           Standard Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Nose:                                 89
   Left/Right Wings:                  67/67
   Aft:                                  45


Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 Rotary AC/5              Nose        20     20     --     --   30     50,00
  Ammo (RAC/5) 300         ---                                          15,00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                                    Heat: 30    100,00
Tons Left:                                                                ,00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        16.438.950 C-Bills
Battle Value:      2.772
Cost per BV:       5.930,36
Weapon Value:      3.043 (Ratio = 1,10)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 92;  MRV = 72;  LRV = 0;  ERV = 0
BattleForce2:      MP: 5,  Armor/Structure: 7 / 0
                   Damage PB/M/L: 10/10/-,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: FH;  Point Value: 28

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Lagrange

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #3 on: 27 December 2021, 09:17:59 »
The Danger her is when this fighter is used as a Squadron, creating a Weaponbay, which can easily penetrate the Damage thressholds of most Warships (except the Leviathan 2).
Are you thinking of the SO page 27 rules?  For those, the attack value of fighters in a squadron remains just the attack value of an individual weapon.
I designed it based of the Vulcan ASF, and could use some second opinions.
If cost is no object, then I expect you'll be happier at 95 or 100 tons.

kashim12

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #4 on: 27 December 2021, 10:33:05 »
This is me fiddling around with Megamek. I figured 80 tons was the bare min for a long tom equipped fighter.

kashim12

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #5 on: 27 December 2021, 10:36:38 »
36 heat dissipation vs 33 from weapons, of which 20 is the Long Tom Cannon in the nose?  I'd recommend dropping a couple Heat Sinks for other equipment.  Price won't be an object since you are using an XXL engine (~52 million C-Bills).

From the title I am guessing you will be having this ASF hang back and engage Dropships from range, using its heavy armor (23.5 tons on an 80-ton platform) to survive the return fire.

Bingo! Most of the Mandalorian remakes of various fighters will initially have 3025 weapons tech but tons of armor to compensate for being green to regular pilots.

Daryk

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #6 on: 27 December 2021, 17:04:12 »
I managed to cram an LTAC into a 50-ton hovercraft... I'm sure something lighter than 80 tons of ASF can do the same...

wolfgar

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #7 on: 27 December 2021, 22:27:07 »
a problem with this that i have found out, you cannot use artillery in space, sorry, but you'll have to find some other weapon to put in the nose
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Daryk

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #8 on: 28 December 2021, 04:12:21 »
Artillery Cannons aren't Artillery.  8)

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #9 on: 28 December 2021, 11:02:17 »
Well, it seems weird loadout. What is your intent for the fighter? I think that you are primarily aim for safer air to ground strike attack by target the ground rather than the enemy themselves on the same hex, but seriously... isn't a spheroid small craft much better at the same task? Put two LTCs on its aft and keep roaming and strike to the hex seems rather fun, although it is not really had any field test. But since you don't need to aim an enemy unit and have zero distance between the enemy, I think that it can survive better than normal ground attackers.

Although there are some voices for anti-dropship role... and you know, artillery cannon is not suited for this - at least it is far from the efficient one. Its selling point is area of effect but it is lost when against aerospace units. If what you really want is an anti-dropship fighter, then Coldstone's ultra AC maniac seems far better answer and you better forget about the artillery cannon.

Lagrange

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #10 on: 28 December 2021, 12:38:29 »
An improved heavy gauss is a general upgrade over a LTC in aerospace combat. 

Daryk

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #11 on: 28 December 2021, 16:54:30 »
The LTAC has a 20 hex long range, making it superior to any AC/20.  Gauss Rifles beat it on that score...

kashim12

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #12 on: 28 December 2021, 23:05:01 »
Well, it seems weird loadout. What is your intent for the fighter? I think that you are primarily aim for safer air to ground strike attack by target the ground rather than the enemy themselves on the same hex, but seriously... isn't a spheroid small craft much better at the same task? Put two LTCs on its aft and keep roaming and strike to the hex seems rather fun, although it is not really had any field test. But since you don't need to aim an enemy unit and have zero distance between the enemy, I think that it can survive better than normal ground attackers.

Although there are some voices for anti-dropship role... and you know, artillery cannon is not suited for this - at least it is far from the efficient one. Its selling point is area of effect but it is lost when against aerospace units. If what you really want is an anti-dropship fighter, then Coldstone's ultra AC maniac seems far better answer and you better forget about the artillery cannon.

It's me basically playing around with Megmek for the first time really.

Coldstone

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #13 on: 30 December 2021, 07:43:06 »
Are you thinking of the SO page 27 rules?  For those, the attack value of fighters in a squadron remains just the attack value of an individual weapon.

So let me get this right, since I don't own the Strat ops yet, I still work under Aerotech2 for now.

Instead of combining the Damage valiue of a bay in a Squadron, in case of the Butcherbird MK I that would be 30 for the UACx3 for 90 x 6 for 6 fighter in a Squadron for a total of 540 damage, resulting in 54 damage capital scale(which would be enough to break through most damage thresholds of even warships)

It is 18 x 30 damage, for a total of 18 x 3 capital scale damage?
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Lagrange

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #14 on: 30 December 2021, 09:21:21 »
It is 18 x 30 damage, for a total of 18 x 3 capital scale damage?
Close.  You would roll on the cluster table for 18 and do 3 capital scale damage per hit.  In other words, an expected 34.5 capital damage applied in a single location, but only a critical hit if they have less than 30 capital armor.

For threshold criticals on dropships (and lightly armored warships), weapon bays on smallcraft can potentially do the trick.

Coldstone

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #15 on: 30 December 2021, 09:29:56 »
Like a 200 Ton small craft with a quad UAC 20 configuration in a single bay? That was an assault Small craft I designed too, after I invented the Butchbird.
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Lagrange

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #16 on: 30 December 2021, 09:43:42 »
Like a 200 Ton small craft with a quad UAC 20 configuration in a single bay? That was an assault Small craft I designed too, after I invented the Butchbird.
Yeah, that's the idea.  It's particularly good if you can use them in a high speed engagement which provides a multiplier (x1.5, x2, or x4) to kinetic damage.  x1.5 is usually doable --- 101 hexes/turn = 51 minutes at 1g.  x2 is harder at 1001 hexes/turn.  x4 takes 42 hours of setup at 5001 hexes/turn.  If you did manage to setup an x4 high speed engagement (a big 'if' given sensor ranges), your smallcraft would inflict 48 capital damage on a hit, enough to make most warships notice.

wolfgar

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #17 on: 31 December 2021, 20:05:43 »
Artillery Cannons aren't Artillery.  8)

not what i was told when i was using them to replace naval cannon because the timeframe didn't have capital weaponry it was on an Aquila
Wolf wins every fight but one, and in that one he dies, his fangs locked on the throat of his opponent.

Lagrange

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #18 on: 31 December 2021, 23:09:31 »
not what i was told when i was using them to replace naval cannon because the timeframe didn't have capital weaponry it was on an Aquila
Artillery Cannons were developed long after capital weaponry.

Daryk

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #19 on: 31 December 2021, 23:37:49 »
Aquilas were long gone when the intro date for Artillery Cannons came around (unforunately... they really are pretty simple).

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #20 on: 01 January 2022, 04:26:23 »
It is weird that Artillery Cannon was developed so later. It should be classified as pre-spaceflight.

Anyway... it is true that what OP was intended is an anti-dropship ASF, rather than air to ground attacker styled ASF?

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #21 on: 01 January 2022, 07:30:27 »
Code: [Select]
Thunderbird TRB-SP1

Mass: 100 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 300 XL
Armor: Vehicular Stealth
Armament:
     2 Plasma Rifle
     5 Medium Pulse Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3067
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-F-E
Cost: 18,100,500 C-bills

Type: Thunderbird
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 100
Battle Value: 3,483

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        300 XL                9.5
Safe Thrust: 5
Max Thrust: 8
Structural Integrity:         0                       
Heat Sinks:                   25 [50]                15
Fuel:                         400                   5.0
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor (Vehicular Stealth)576                    36

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                   191   
     Wings                142/142 
     Aft                    101   


Weapons
and Ammo                 Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
3 Medium Pulse Laser       NOS       6.0      4      6    0    0    0 
2 Plasma Rifle             NOS       12.0     10    10   10    0    0 
Medium Pulse Laser         RWG       2.0      4      6    0    0    0 
Plasma Rifle Ammo (20)     FSLG      2.0      -      -    -    -    - 
ECM Suite                  FSLG      1.5      -      -    -    -    - 
Targeting Computer         FSLG      6.0      -      -    -    -    - 
Medium Pulse Laser         LWG       2.0      4      6    0    0    0 


If what you need is an anti-dropship ASF, then what about something like this? It is slower a bit than your model, but it has the better chance to survive before dealing the killing blow. Actually it is also designed to fight against the enemy heavy ASFs, so replace the MPLs to the others seems not bad, for only two plasma rifles are not that impressive for anti ship. Perhaps without stealth armor and MPLs, I think that a 100 tonner may carry up to four plasma rifles with similar protection, else you drop some more point in armor and carry more.

I pick plasma rifle because its heat effect is replaced by additional 2d6 damage against the dropships(since it is not heat-tracking unit) so it may cause much more damage than most other weapons with similar weight.

If you really want to kill a dropship so faster, then it is not half bad to also use Coolant Pod or Radical Heat Sink while have 5+ plasma rifles, activating the cooling system to withstand a round of alpha strike. After all, you can't sit behind of the enemy dropship and keep shooting your weapons and you need to move out after the shot since it's the aircraft.

Code: [Select]
Thunderbird TRB-SP2

Mass: 100 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 300 XL
Armor: Vehicular Stealth
Armament:
     5 Plasma Rifle
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3079
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-F-E
Cost: 18,588,000 C-bills

Type: Thunderbird
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 100
Battle Value: 3,624

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        300 XL                9.5
Safe Thrust: 5
Max Thrust: 8
Structural Integrity:         10                       
Heat Sinks:                   20 [40]                10
Fuel:                         400                   5.0
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor (Vehicular Stealth)432                    27

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                   141   
     Wings                100/100 
     Aft                     91   


Weapons
and Ammo                 Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
5 Plasma Rifle             NOS       30.0     10    10   10    0    0 
Coolant Pod (2)            FSLG      2.0      -      -    -    -    - 
CASE II                    FSLG      1.0      -      -    -    -    - 
Plasma Rifle Ammo (30)     FSLG      3.0      -      -    -    -    - 
ECM Suite                  FSLG      1.5      -      -    -    -    - 
Targeting Computer         FSLG      8.0      -      -    -    -    - 


For example, one trick pony to let the enemy dropship burn, sacrificing the armor and only rely on stealth capability to survive.

« Last Edit: 01 January 2022, 07:38:01 by PuppyLikesLaserPointers »

Lagrange

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #22 on: 01 January 2022, 09:24:16 »
I pick plasma rifle because its heat effect is replaced by additional 2d6 damage against the dropships(since it is not heat-tracking unit) ...
Sarna suggests otherwise?

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #23 on: 01 January 2022, 09:38:37 »
Sarna suggests otherwise?

The description of Total Warfare says plasma rifle adds 2d6 extra damage against any units other than mechs, ASFs and small craft(and CI).

Lagrange

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #24 on: 01 January 2022, 11:59:36 »
The description of Total Warfare says plasma rifle adds 2d6 extra damage against any units other than mechs, ASFs and small craft(and CI).
Nice.

So, with 2 tons of ammo and 5 double heat sinks, it's a 13 ton weapon system that deals an expected 17 damage in an expected (5,5,5,2) pattern.  4 ER medium lasers would have a (5,5,5,5) pattern and require 14 tons so this is comparable and more compact at medium range with an edge if you are using individual ranges.

Incidentally, I ran across an issue with the UAC-20 approach.  UAC-20's divide their damage into 15 point shots on hit, so you can't threshold critical warships with a smallcraft UAC-20 bay so easily.  See here, page 45. 

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #25 on: 02 January 2022, 02:08:10 »
Although I didn't have an answer for this, but if the sum of plasma rifle damage interacts with the target's damage threshold instead of the series of 5 damages(thus blocked by only 41 or more armor point), then it may cause average 17 damage and able to cause criticals against armor points lower than 161.

Also, a plasma rifle costs only one slot, while 4 ER medium laser costs four slots. Only put the plasma rifles and nothing more seems not a sound plan, so mix both weapons would be the better answer. Perhaps it may not breach the damage threshold, but with more shots it has higher chance to make the target out of control.
« Last Edit: 02 January 2022, 02:20:58 by PuppyLikesLaserPointers »

Lagrange

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #26 on: 02 January 2022, 09:07:10 »
The compactness is definitely great.  And even when it's used on ASF, monkeying with the enemy's heat can have a significant effect on how much damage they do next round.

Coldstone

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #27 on: 03 January 2022, 07:40:31 »
Nice.

So, with 2 tons of ammo and 5 double heat sinks, it's a 13 ton weapon system that deals an expected 17 damage in an expected (5,5,5,2) pattern.  4 ER medium lasers would have a (5,5,5,5) pattern and require 14 tons so this is comparable and more compact at medium range with an edge if you are using individual ranges.

Incidentally, I ran across an issue with the UAC-20 approach.  UAC-20's divide their damage into 15 point shots on hit, so you can't threshold critical warships with a smallcraft UAC-20 bay so easily.  See here, page 45.

So they totally nerfed the damage ASFs can do with conventional weapons in comparison to Aerotech 2? I am not sure if I like that.
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Lagrange

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Re: I need opinions on this ASF I designed for drop-chopping.
« Reply #28 on: 03 January 2022, 11:26:23 »
So they totally nerfed the damage ASFs can do with conventional weapons in comparison to Aerotech 2? I am not sure if I like that.
Well, not the damage, but the criticals.  Anything with 20-or-more capital armor doesn't suffer a threshold critical in a normal engagement.  In a very high speed pass the threshold grows to 80 capital damage.