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ATN082268

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Firepower
« on: 05 June 2011, 14:14:52 »

AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
                                  VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name:  Firepower
Tech:              Clan / 3070
Vessel Type:       WarShip
Rules:             Level 2, Custom design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              2,500,000 tons
K-F Drive System:  (Unknown)
Length:            3,000 meters
Sail Diameter:     2,000 meters
Power Plant:       Standard
Safe Thrust:       1
Maximum Thrust:    2
Armor Type:        Lamellor Ferro-carbide

Armament:         
  160 Heavy NPPC
   76 ER Large Laser
   76 ER PPC
   74 Large Pulse Laser
   86 AMS
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Firepower
Mass:              2,500,000 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass 
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                      150,000.00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 1
      Maximum Thrust: 2
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive:  Compact (Integrity = 47)             1,131,250.00
Lithium Fusion Battery                                              25,000.00
Jump Sail (Detachable): (Integrity = 9)                                155.00
Structural Integrity: 60                                           150,000.00
Total Heat Sinks:    22,500 Double                                  21,908.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                  71,765.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:              6,250.00
Fire Control Computers:                                             96,322.00
Food & Water:  (1100 days supply)                                   11,220.00
Hyperpulse Generator:                                                   50.00
Armor Type:  Lamellor Ferro-carbide  (3,335 total armor pts)         2,999.00

                           Capital Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                550
   Fore-Left/Right:                  575/575
   Aft-Left/Right:                   545/545
   Aft:                                 545

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Fighters (200) with 25 doors                              30,000.00
           Small Craft (20)                                          4,000.00
   Bay 2:  Cargo (1) with 5 doors                                  125,000.00

DropShip Capacity:  50 Docking Hardpoints                           50,000.00
Grav Decks #1 - 12:  (125-meter diameter)                            1,200.00
Life Boats:  200 (7 tons each)                                       1,400.00
Escape Pods:  200 (7 tons each)                                      1,400.00

Crew and Passengers:
    240 Officers (220 minimum)                                       2,400.00
    875 Crew (305 minimum)                                           6,125.00
    225 Gunners (212 minimum)                                        1,575.00
    200 Marine Battle Armor Troopers/Elementals                      1,400.00
    500 Bay Personnel                                                     .00

Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
10 ER Large Laser          Nose   10(100)10(100)10(100)10(100)  120     40.00
10 ER PPC                  Nose   15(150)15(150)15(150)     --  150     60.00
9 Large Pulse Laser        Nose     9(90)  9(90)  9(90)     --   90     54.00
10 AMS(4992 rounds)        Nose        --     --     --     --   10    213.00
4 Heavy NPPC               FL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               FL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               FL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               FL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               FL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 ER Large Laser           FL/R     4(40)  4(40)  4(40)  4(40)   96     32.00
4 ER PPC                   FL/R     6(60)  6(60)  6(60)     --  120     48.00
4 Large Pulse Laser        FL/R     4(40)  4(40)  4(40)     --   80     48.00
7 AMS(3504 rounds)         FL/R        --     --     --     --   14    299.00
20 ER Large Laser          L/RBS  20(200)20(200)20(200)20(200)  480    160.00
20 ER PPC                  L/RBS  30(300)30(300)30(300)     --  600    240.00
20 Large Pulse Laser       L/RBS  20(200)20(200)20(200)     --  400    240.00
19 AMS(10008 rounds)       L/RBS       --     --     --     --   38    853.00
4 Heavy NPPC               AL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               AL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               AL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               AL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               AL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 ER Large Laser           AL/R     4(40)  4(40)  4(40)  4(40)   96     32.00
4 ER PPC                   AL/R     6(60)  6(60)  6(60)     --  120     48.00
4 Large Pulse Laser        AL/R     4(40)  4(40)  4(40)     --   80     48.00
7 AMS(3504 rounds)         AL/R        --     --     --     --   14    299.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
10 ER Large Laser          Aft    10(100)10(100)10(100)10(100)  120     40.00
10 ER PPC                  Aft    15(150)15(150)15(150)     --  150     60.00
9 Large Pulse Laser        Aft      9(90)  9(90)  9(90)     --   90     54.00
10 AMS(4992 rounds)        Aft         --     --     --     --   10    213.00
1 Lot Spare Parts (5.00%)                                          125,000.00
1 Large Naval Comm-scanner                                             500.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                           Heat: 38,878   2,500,000.00
Tons Left:                                                                .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        131,760,573,656 C-Bills
Battle Value:      332,435
Cost per BV:       396,349.78
Weapon Value:      246,033 (Ratio = .74)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 24,876;  MRV = 24,051;  LRV = 18,224;  ERV = 6,945
Maintenance:       Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 1,533,656
                   (213,049 Structure, 365,125 Life Support, 955,482 Weapons)
                   Support Points (SP) = 1,568,800  (102% of MPV)
BattleForce2:      Not applicable

Starmage21

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #1 on: 05 June 2011, 18:45:54 »
realistically, a ship with all those energy weapons is going to be designed for long times away from any port where it can reload. You need more fuel, and more food for the people onboard! :D

Khymerion

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #2 on: 05 June 2011, 23:54:09 »
Come on, she has 3 years of food and water on board...   for something that outruns some planets, it is a great monitor!  A one ship master blockade.
"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology."  - Larry Niven... far too appropriate at times here.

...but sometimes making sure you turn their ace into red paste is more important than friends.

Do not offend the chair leg of truth.  It is wise and terrible.

The GM is only right for as long as the facts back him up.

truetanker

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #3 on: 06 June 2011, 12:17:48 »
Khymerion old buddy,

Dude! Drop the ammo dependancy and go LAMS or even standard Small Laser.  ;D

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Khymerion

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #4 on: 06 June 2011, 17:37:22 »
You got 50 drop ships to shuttle supplies to and from the behemoth...   I wouldn't be too worried being supplied.  Heck, I am pretty sure with 50, you can pretty much ship all the survivors of the 12 colonies...
"Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology."  - Larry Niven... far too appropriate at times here.

...but sometimes making sure you turn their ace into red paste is more important than friends.

Do not offend the chair leg of truth.  It is wise and terrible.

The GM is only right for as long as the facts back him up.

Fireangel

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #5 on: 07 June 2011, 11:20:24 »
Khymerion old buddy,

Dude! Drop the ammo dependancy and go LAMS or even standard Small Laser.  ;D

TT

Standard small lasers can engage only a single missile/missile flight per bay per turn; all you need to bypass point-defense small lasers is to fire two separate missiles/missile flights into the same arc. Standard AMS can counter even Macross-style missile spam, so long as ammo holds out.


Regarding the design, I'd put at least a couple of HNPPC bays in the broadside arcs; with all of1/2 thrust it might find itself in a position where being able to bring three arcs to bear is a Good Thingtm8)
« Last Edit: 07 June 2011, 11:25:14 by Fireangel »

truetanker

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #6 on: 07 June 2011, 11:36:16 »
Hmm.. maybe your right about that, what about Laser Anti-Missile Systems?

Also I think that Fireangel might be right, if you allow 7 NPPC Bays Nose and Aft, while you place the remaining 3 bays towards Broadside arcs. Giving you now 6 bays to play in this area plus the FR/L and AR/L arcs ability to swing either arc...  [drool]

Sorry, had to keep from drooling so much!  ;)

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Dragon Cat

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #7 on: 07 June 2011, 21:12:42 »
U don't want Laser AMS - the LAMS would engage any attack you throw at this thing.  easiest way to kill it would be surround it with aero fighters with missiles, Avalons and Foxes and just bombard it with missiles.  The LAMS will kill the ship with heat it won't be able to fire and all that (gross/extreme/nuts) firepower will be tonnage used for nothing.

Doesn't matter how much fighters and DropShips you have shoot enough missiles at it and you'll kill it if it carries LAMS
The below link leads to a wiki page created by Wrangler.  It has links to the various pages of my AU.
https://battletechfanon.fandom.com/wiki/Alternate_Timeline_with_Thanks
For those looking for everything online I've also got them on the OurBattleTech website
https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?board=76.0
As always please enjoy and if you have any questions about my AU (or want to chat about ideas I could incorporate into it) feel free to PM me.

Fireangel

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #8 on: 08 June 2011, 09:03:21 »
U don't want Laser AMS - the LAMS would engage any attack you throw at this thing.  easiest way to kill it would be surround it with aero fighters with missiles, Avalons and Foxes and just bombard it with missiles.  The LAMS will kill the ship with heat it won't be able to fire and all that (gross/extreme/nuts) firepower will be tonnage used for nothing.

Doesn't matter how much fighters and DropShips you have shoot enough missiles at it and you'll kill it if it carries LAMS

The issue is not as bad as you might think; heat by bay (not arc) will solve to problem handily. If you are not using that rule, simply not firing one arc should free up enough heat sinks to fire all LAMS in all arcs (you do remember that AMS systems draw heat independently of the rest of the arc, right?) for a few days of continuous fire.  [rockon]

Sure, you could bring enough firepower to overwhelm the LAMS/AMS from all sides, but the resources required to do that would strain any three national navies put together.

ATN082268

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #9 on: 08 June 2011, 17:50:00 »
Hmm.. maybe your right about that, what about Laser Anti-Missile Systems?

Also I think that Fireangel might be right, if you allow 7 NPPC Bays Nose and Aft, while you place the remaining 3 bays towards Broadside arcs. Giving you now 6 bays to play in this area plus the FR/L and AR/L arcs ability to swing either arc...  [drool]

Sorry, had to keep from drooling so much!  ;)

TT

  I used a standard AMS because Heavy Metal Aero had that for level 2 technology.  Laser AMS is a definite possibility though. I mounted the main guns in such a way to where you would be getting hit almost equally hard no matter where you are. There is a single row of hexes in front and to the rear of the warship where only the Nose and Aft firing arcs can hit respectively. I have never been a big fan of the broadside arc and would rather split the weapons between the FL/R and A L/R arcs if possible. Given the slow speed and the chance of having the engine completely destroyed, Firepower has to be good equally armor and firepower wise in all directions.

-Andrew

Fireangel

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #10 on: 08 June 2011, 20:31:23 »
  I used a standard AMS because Heavy Metal Aero had that for level 2 technology.  Laser AMS is a definite possibility though. I mounted the main guns in such a way to where you would be getting hit almost equally hard no matter where you are. There is a single row of hexes in front and to the rear of the warship where only the Nose and Aft firing arcs can hit respectively. I have never been a big fan of the broadside arc and would rather split the weapons between the FL/R and A L/R arcs if possible. Given the slow speed and the chance of having the engine completely destroyed, Firepower has to be good equally armor and firepower wise in all directions.

-Andrew

I see your point, but the broadside arcs are there; might as well use 'em.  ;)

Losing the engine shouldn't be a concern; considering the kind of firepower required to do that, in this design, if it happens, bays per arc is the least of your concerns. 8)

On the other hand, given only 1/2 thrust, a squadron of serious warships could actually maneuver into a position where they don't have to face the long arcs while dividing the attention of the corner arcs.

ATN082268

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #11 on: 11 June 2011, 17:38:14 »
I see your point, but the broadside arcs are there; might as well use 'em.  ;)

Losing the engine shouldn't be a concern; considering the kind of firepower required to do that, in this design, if it happens, bays per arc is the least of your concerns. 8)

On the other hand, given only 1/2 thrust, a squadron of serious warships could actually maneuver into a position where they don't have to face the long arcs while dividing the attention of the corner arcs.

  I think it is possible for the engine of Firepower to be destroyed by critical hits without armor breach if I understand the armor threshold rules correctly. Also, i don't think it is possible for a unit to maneuver, for example, into the A/L arc of a unit and not also be subject to the Aft arc weapons *or* the F/L arc weapons. Yeah, it is a little strange that the design doesn't have much in the way of broadside weapons, but some other designs have their oddities as well like the Texas which, if memory serves, doesn't have any Nose weapons.

-Andrew

Fireangel

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #12 on: 11 June 2011, 21:30:42 »
  I think it is possible for the engine of Firepower to be destroyed by critical hits without armor breach if I understand the armor threshold rules correctly.

Trust me, the chances of that happening are pretty darn remote, and once the engine goes, continuing the fight is usually foolish.

Quote
Also, i don't think it is possible for a unit to maneuver, for example, into the A/L arc of a unit and not also be subject to the Aft arc weapons *or* the F/L arc weapons.

I didn't say that; I said: "...a squadron of serious warships could actually maneuver into a position where they don't have to face the long arcs while dividing the attention of the corner arcs." Meaning that a squadron of warships can maneuver into a position along a broadside of the Firepower (say LBS) wherein said vessel has to divide its F/L and/or its A/L bays among the attacking warships while said warships need not worry about the Nose or Aft arcs of Firepower. Heck, there is an entire hexrow where any attacker just needs to worry about one of the corner arcs (TW pp. 235 [no broadsides] / SO pp. 95 [with broadsides]).

Here we are talking about the difference between 5 (one corner arc), 10 (two corner arcs) or 15 (one corner and one long arc) bays.

Quote
Yeah, it is a little strange that the design doesn't have much in the way of broadside weapons, but some other designs have their oddities as well like the Texas which, if memory serves, doesn't have any Nose weapons.

-Andrew

Actually, Texas is undergunned for a battleship, but she does have a 54-cap extreme-caprange NL bay in each broadside, flanked by AR-10's and capital missiles from other arcs that can be fired bearings-only into the nose arc or either broadside.


ATN082268

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #13 on: 12 June 2011, 12:03:34 »
Trust me, the chances of that happening are pretty darn remote, and once the engine goes, continuing the fight is usually foolish.

I didn't say that; I said: "...a squadron of serious warships could actually maneuver into a position where they don't have to face the long arcs while dividing the attention of the corner arcs." Meaning that a squadron of warships can maneuver into a position along a broadside of the Firepower (say LBS) wherein said vessel has to divide its F/L and/or its A/L bays among the attacking warships while said warships need not worry about the Nose or Aft arcs of Firepower. Heck, there is an entire hexrow where any attacker just needs to worry about one of the corner arcs (TW pp. 235 [no broadsides] / SO pp. 95 [with broadsides]).

Here we are talking about the difference between 5 (one corner arc), 10 (two corner arcs) or 15 (one corner and one long arc) bays.

Actually, Texas is undergunned for a battleship, but she does have a 54-cap extreme-caprange NL bay in each broadside, flanked by AR-10's and capital missiles from other arcs that can be fired bearings-only into the nose arc or either broadside.

  You're right about the firing arcs. It has been a while since I looked at the diagram :)

Stormfury

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #14 on: 12 June 2011, 17:38:30 »
It really needs at least 12 AMS per arc; otherwise, you're going to be eaten alive by anything with Killer Whale launchers or AR-10s.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

ATN082268

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #15 on: 12 June 2011, 18:59:30 »
  Based on feedback, I made a couple of changes...


AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
                                  VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name:  Firepower II
Tech:              Clan / 3070
Vessel Type:       WarShip
Rules:             Level 2, Custom design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              2,500,000 tons
K-F Drive System:  (Unknown)
Length:            3,000 meters
Sail Diameter:     2,000 meters
Power Plant:       Standard
Safe Thrust:       1
Maximum Thrust:    2
Armor Type:        Lamellor Ferro-carbide

Armament:         
  200 Heavy NPPC
   36 ER Large Laser
   30 ER PPC
   30 Large Pulse Laser
   96 AMS
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Firepower II
Mass:              2,500,000 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass 
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                      150,000.00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 1
      Maximum Thrust: 2
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive:  Compact (Integrity = 47)             1,131,250.00
Lithium Fusion Battery                                              25,000.00
Jump Sail (Detachable): (Integrity = 9)                                155.00
Structural Integrity: 60                                           150,000.00
Total Heat Sinks:    25,339 Double                                  24,747.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                  61,200.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:              6,250.00
Fire Control Computers:                                            108,120.00
Food & Water:  (1100 days supply)                                   12,018.00
Hyperpulse Generator:                                                   50.00
Armor Type:  Lamellor Ferro-carbide  (3,335 total armor pts)         2,999.00

                           Capital Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                550
   Fore-Left/Right:                  575/575
   Aft-Left/Right:                   545/545
   Aft:                                 545

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Fighters (200) with 25 doors                              30,000.00
           Small Craft (20)                                          4,000.00
   Bay 2:  Cargo (1) with 8 doors                                  100,000.00

DropShip Capacity:  50 Docking Hardpoints                           50,000.00
Grav Decks #1 - 12:  (125-meter diameter)                            1,200.00
Life Boats:  200 (7 tons each)                                       1,400.00
Escape Pods:  200 (7 tons each)                                      1,400.00

Crew and Passengers:
    260 Officers (245 minimum)                                       2,600.00
    975 Crew (285 minimum)                                           6,825.00
    250 Gunners (232 minimum)                                        1,750.00
    200 Marine Battle Armor Troopers/Elementals                      1,400.00
    500 Bay Personnel                                                     .00

Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Nose        60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
9 ER Large Laser           Nose     9(90)  9(90)  9(90)  9(90)  108     36.00
9 ER PPC                   Nose   14(135)14(135)14(135)     --  135     54.00
9 Large Pulse Laser        Nose     9(90)  9(90)  9(90)     --   90     54.00
12 AMS(6000 rounds)        Nose        --     --     --     --   12    256.00
4 Heavy NPPC               FL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               FL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               FL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               FL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               FL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
3 ER Large Laser           FL/R     3(30)  3(30)  3(30)  3(30)   72     24.00
2 ER PPC                   FL/R     3(30)  3(30)  3(30)     --   60     24.00
2 Large Pulse Laser        FL/R     2(20)  2(20)  2(20)     --   40     24.00
12 AMS(4008 rounds)        FL/R        --     --     --     --   24    346.00
4 Heavy NPPC               L/RBS       60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               L/RBS       60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               L/RBS       60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               L/RBS       60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               L/RBS       60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
3 ER Large Laser           L/RBS    3(30)  3(30)  3(30)  3(30)   72     24.00
2 ER PPC                   L/RBS    3(30)  3(30)  3(30)     --   60     24.00
2 Large Pulse Laser        L/RBS    2(20)  2(20)  2(20)     --   40     24.00
12 AMS(4992 rounds)        L/RBS       --     --     --     --   24    428.00
4 Heavy NPPC               AL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               AL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               AL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               AL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               AL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
3 ER Large Laser           AL/R     3(30)  3(30)  3(30)  3(30)   72     24.00
2 ER PPC                   AL/R     3(30)  3(30)  3(30)     --   60     24.00
2 Large Pulse Laser        AL/R     2(20)  2(20)  2(20)     --   40     24.00
12 AMS(4008 rounds)        AL/R        --     --     --     --   24    346.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               Aft         60     60     60     60  900 12,000.00
9 ER Large Laser           Aft      9(90)  9(90)  9(90)  9(90)  108     36.00
9 ER PPC                   Aft    14(135)14(135)14(135)     --  135     54.00
9 Large Pulse Laser        Aft      9(90)  9(90)  9(90)     --   90     54.00
12 AMS(6000 rounds)        Aft         --     --     --     --   12    256.00
1 Lot Spare Parts (1.00%)                                           25,000.00
1 Large Naval Comm-scanner                                             500.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                           Heat: 46,278   2,500,000.00
Tons Left:                                                                .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        132,457,872,000 C-Bills
Battle Value:      352,685
Cost per BV:       375,569.79
Weapon Value:      254,046 (Ratio = .72)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 28,983;  MRV = 28,360;  LRV = 22,039;  ERV = 8,681
Maintenance:       Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 1,715,530
                   (212,799 Structure, 372,375 Life Support, 1,130,356 Weapons)
                   Support Points (SP) = 1,725,800  (101% of MPV)
BattleForce2:      Not applicable

Stormfury

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #16 on: 12 June 2011, 21:08:47 »
A bit better, but the real danger it poses is still in the form of the DropShip, Fighter, and (theoretically) boarding actions it can undertake. A 2.5 MT vessel designed as an actual fighter will shred it rather easily.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

Fireangel

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #17 on: 12 June 2011, 21:11:36 »
It really needs at least 12 AMS per arc; otherwise, you're going to be eaten alive by anything with Killer Whale launchers or AR-10s.

Well, with 10 it is still adding +3 to the TN to hit, +2 for ECM, plus the ECM and AMS of any escort dropper along the missile path.

Stormfury

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #18 on: 12 June 2011, 22:52:30 »
That assumes you're playing with that optional AMS rule and/or have other assets present along the firing line. Admittedly with 50 DropShips you can quite easily blanket local space, but even so...

As it is, any non-nuke bay delivering more than 4 Capital Damage through its missiles is going to be through without trouble, and thanks to the low armour any 58-point plus capital bay is going to be thresholding it every time.

In a lot of ways a minimally upgraded Aegis is going to be a lot more dangerous and will handily outfight this. It might be an interesting exploitation of the rules, but so far as being an effective combat vessel goes, not so much.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

ATN082268

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #19 on: 13 June 2011, 07:08:54 »
That assumes you're playing with that optional AMS rule and/or have other assets present along the firing line. Admittedly with 50 DropShips you can quite easily blanket local space, but even so...

As it is, any non-nuke bay delivering more than 4 Capital Damage through its missiles is going to be through without trouble, and thanks to the low armour any 58-point plus capital bay is going to be thresholding it every time.

In a lot of ways a minimally upgraded Aegis is going to be a lot more dangerous and will handily outfight this. It might be an interesting exploitation of the rules, but so far as being an effective combat vessel goes, not so much.

  How exactly would a minimally upgraded Aegis be a lot more dangerous and handily outfight Firepower II? Please post your upgraded Aegis and explain your battle plan.
« Last Edit: 13 June 2011, 07:17:44 by ATN082268 »

Stormfury

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #20 on: 13 June 2011, 08:42:10 »
Up the armour, make it Ferro-Lamellor. Make all N-A/C bays 70 points. Swap the missile bays for AR-10s capable of throwing nukes. Make the energy bays of 20-point Naval Laser arrays. Bulk out the Nose arc with two additional N-A/C bays.

Nose
3 bays of paired N-A/C 10s and 25s
1 bay of 2 NL-45s and 2 NL-55s
1 bay of 2 AR-10 launchers with 10 Barracuda/White Shark/Killer Whale missiles each and 5 Santa Anas held in reserve

Fore-Sides
2 bays of paired N-A/C 10s and 25s
2 bays of 2 NL-45s and 2 NL-55s
1 bay of 4 AR-10 launchers with 10 Barracuda/White Shark/Killer Whale missiles each and 5 Santa Anas held in reserve

Broadsides
4 bays of paired N-A/C 10s and 25s
1 bay of 2 NL-45s and 2 NL-55s

Aft-Sides
2 bays of paired N-A/C 10s and 25s
2 bays of 2 NL-45s and 2 NL-55s
1 bay of 2 AR-10 launchers with 10 Barracuda/White Shark/Killer Whale missiles each and 5 Santa Anas held in reserve

Aft
2 bays of paired N-A/C 10s and 25s
2 bays of 2 NL-45s and 2 NL-55s
1 bay of 2 AR-10 launchers with 10 Barracuda/White Shark/Killer Whale missiles each and 5 Santa Anas held in reserve


In a high-speed closing engagement, deliver multiple White Shark or Killer Whale volleys from the nose, one Fore-Side and then Bearings-only launches. You have no Capital Missiles and cannot reply. Who knows? Maybe one of the ten missiles your AMS can't halt proves fatal, or nearly so.

I then deliver +50% damage at minimum to a maximum of quadruple damage per arc. This results in each of my N-A/C bays delivering 105 to 280 damage, with five in play for a potential total of 1, 400 damage. The maximum damage you can sustain in a head-on attack is 1,270. Carnage ensues.

In a conventional battle, it will require more luck but can still be done; burn in diagonally while spamming missiles. If nukes are in play, wait until an arc's AMS bay has been critted out and then fire along it.
 
Otherwise, turn broadside-to-broadside and use superior thrust to deliver the 110-point Fore-Right, 300-point Broadside, 90-point Aft-side arcs while still spamming missiles.

It's going to be decided by Thresholding... and even if you do win, the Aegis is only a little over a quarter of your mass, isn't abusing the cornerpost theory, and is not even vaguely optimised.

If the Aegis is fighting other canon vessels, it's faster, can deliver its arsenal more regularly, and can be modified in dock for anyone who has an existing Aegis rather than tooling up lines for a 2.5 MT monster.

2.5MT is a lot. But I'd be more worried about the flotilla of DropShips than the vessel itself.
« Last Edit: 13 June 2011, 08:45:01 by Stormfury »
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

Fireangel

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #21 on: 13 June 2011, 09:48:55 »
  How exactly would a minimally upgraded Aegis be a lot more dangerous and handily outfight Firepower II? Please post your upgraded Aegis and explain your battle plan.

I was wondering the same thing; The stock Aegis can deliver an absolute maximum of 497 into its 3-bay "sweet spot" up to medium capital range, with damage dropping off significantly at long capital range. Yes, 2/3 thrust will allow the Aegis to out maneuver Firepower (causing no end of hilarity to aerotech vets!), but not by much. Armour + SI will not survive an exchange, since the Aegis will be cored with 251 capital points at its most armoured arc... and Firepower I's 5-bay corner arcs can deliver 300 points of capital damage.


I will add that this:

Quote
Up the armour, make it Ferro-Lamellor. Make all N-A/C bays 70 points. Swap the missile bays for AR-10s capable of throwing nukes. Make the energy bays of 20-point Naval Laser arrays. Bulk out the Nose arc with two additional N-A/C bays.

Is NOT "minimally upgraded".

Stormfury

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #22 on: 13 June 2011, 15:42:10 »
Quote
I was wondering the same thing; The stock Aegis can deliver an absolute maximum of 497 into its 3-bay "sweet spot" up to medium capital range, with damage dropping off significantly at long capital range. Yes, 2/3 thrust will allow the Aegis to out maneuver Firepower (causing no end of hilarity to aerotech vets!), but not by much. Armour + SI will not survive an exchange, since the Aegis will be cored with 251 capital points at its most armoured arc... and Firepower I's 5-bay corner arcs can deliver 300 points of capital damage.

Actually, with 225 points on the nose and sides and 160 to the rear, the proposed upgrade can sink 375. It can survive... barely.

Quote
Is NOT "minimally upgraded".

Compared to the changes between the 2372 and 2582 iterations of the Aegis, or the Block I and II Davion and Whirlwind, Avatar and Liberator, Quixote and Volga or Kimagure and Conqueror, the changes are decidedly minimal.

Replacing the armour and renovating the weaponry is about as minimal as you can get; no change in mass (Davions), no engine change (Conqueror), messing with SI (Whirlwind), or entirely renovating the weapons array from the ground up (like the Liberator, Volga and [/i]Conqueror[/i]).

Admittedly I relied a bit on the bait-and-switch closing engagement trick, but the fact remains a very unspectacular, highly inefficient vessel at a quarter of the mass of the Firepower is able to make a reasonably solid run at fighting the WarShip itself.

The fighter and DropShip complement will certainly kill most things going around, but the WarShip itself... not as scary as it could be. Some 70-point N-A/C bays and Naval Laser arrays would increase damage (at the cost of range on the N-A/Cs) with the NL bays (6 NL-55s offering the same damage as the anti-fighter array fore and aft) reducing two arc's Fire Control mass by 10% and dual NL-45s everywhere else giving range, AA mode, and Bracketing fire to boot.

The real killer is the 1/2 thrust profile. A 2/3 vessel would make it substantially tougher, and 3/5 is what you usually expect to see modern(ish) BattleShips carrying such a large weapons array moving.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

Fireangel

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #23 on: 13 June 2011, 17:51:12 »
Actually, with 225 points on the nose and sides and 160 to the rear, the proposed upgrade can sink 375. It can survive... barely.

From a single corner arc; if facing a nose arc there will be 600 potential points of capital damage and if facing a two-arc kiss, the potential damage can go as high as 900 capital points. Either is enough to doughnut a stock Aegis... even your upgraded version... in a single volley.

ATN082268

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #24 on: 16 June 2011, 15:04:59 »
Up the armour, make it Ferro-Lamellor. Make all N-A/C bays 70 points. Swap the missile bays for AR-10s capable of throwing nukes. Make the energy bays of 20-point Naval Laser arrays. Bulk out the Nose arc with two additional N-A/C bays.

Nose
3 bays of paired N-A/C 10s and 25s
1 bay of 2 NL-45s and 2 NL-55s
1 bay of 2 AR-10 launchers with 10 Barracuda/White Shark/Killer Whale missiles each and 5 Santa Anas held in reserve

Fore-Sides
2 bays of paired N-A/C 10s and 25s
2 bays of 2 NL-45s and 2 NL-55s
1 bay of 4 AR-10 launchers with 10 Barracuda/White Shark/Killer Whale missiles each and 5 Santa Anas held in reserve

Broadsides
4 bays of paired N-A/C 10s and 25s
1 bay of 2 NL-45s and 2 NL-55s

Aft-Sides
2 bays of paired N-A/C 10s and 25s
2 bays of 2 NL-45s and 2 NL-55s
1 bay of 2 AR-10 launchers with 10 Barracuda/White Shark/Killer Whale missiles each and 5 Santa Anas held in reserve

Aft
2 bays of paired N-A/C 10s and 25s
2 bays of 2 NL-45s and 2 NL-55s
1 bay of 2 AR-10 launchers with 10 Barracuda/White Shark/Killer Whale missiles each and 5 Santa Anas held in reserve


In a high-speed closing engagement, deliver multiple White Shark or Killer Whale volleys from the nose, one Fore-Side and then Bearings-only launches. You have no Capital Missiles and cannot reply. Who knows? Maybe one of the ten missiles your AMS can't halt proves fatal, or nearly so.

I then deliver +50% damage at minimum to a maximum of quadruple damage per arc. This results in each of my N-A/C bays delivering 105 to 280 damage, with five in play for a potential total of 1, 400 damage. The maximum damage you can sustain in a head-on attack is 1,270. Carnage ensues.

In a conventional battle, it will require more luck but can still be done; burn in diagonally while spamming missiles. If nukes are in play, wait until an arc's AMS bay has been critted out and then fire along it.
 
Otherwise, turn broadside-to-broadside and use superior thrust to deliver the 110-point Fore-Right, 300-point Broadside, 90-point Aft-side arcs while still spamming missiles.

It's going to be decided by Thresholding... and even if you do win, the Aegis is only a little over a quarter of your mass, isn't abusing the cornerpost theory, and is not even vaguely optimised.

If the Aegis is fighting other canon vessels, it's faster, can deliver its arsenal more regularly, and can be modified in dock for anyone who has an existing Aegis rather than tooling up lines for a 2.5 MT monster.

2.5MT is a lot. But I'd be more worried about the flotilla of DropShips than the vessel itself.

  I have a question about your battleplan:

1.  How many times have you fought a similar type engagement and how many times did you win?

  I think I should point out that constructing a particular unit and scenario to defeat a particular unit isn't all that useful. Besides, in a typical scenario, your numbers to hit with the missiles at long and extreme ranges will be poor, not even counting other possible factors like the ship's AMS and ECM (along with the possible AMS and ECM of the Dropship and Aerospace Fighters from Firepower II); your few chances for critical hits with the missiles will also need high numbers. True, you will have some chances for critical hits with your other bays but then so do I and in greater numbers with my 10-15 vs your 4-12. Even with the upgraded armor of the Aegis, Firepower II still has around 2.5 times as much armor. Is it possible for you to win, sure but don't take those odds to Vegas :)

  Sincerely,

    Andrew
« Last Edit: 16 June 2011, 19:59:41 by ATN082268 »

truetanker

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #25 on: 20 June 2011, 14:56:24 »
I, for one, would like to see what ANT ( pardon the shortness is a long name  ;) ) would or could put up in the way of his Firepower II's Dropships, Shuttles and Fighter mods. And then maybe we could conceive of some sort of on line game,  :), everybody can agree on to see if and what happens when said forces meet once and for all!  O0

Agreeable?
TT O:-)
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ATN082268

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Re: Firepower
« Reply #26 on: 21 June 2011, 11:39:28 »
I, for one, would like to see what ANT ( pardon the shortness is a long name  ;) ) would or could put up in the way of his Firepower II's Dropships, Shuttles and Fighter mods. And then maybe we could conceive of some sort of on line game,  :), everybody can agree on to see if and what happens when said forces meet once and for all!  O0

Agreeable?
TT O:-)

  Long game :) With equal BV on the board, it would probably be something like the Firepower II with all its Dropships and Aerospace Fighters against half a dozen of the modified Aegis design.
« Last Edit: 21 June 2011, 11:53:22 by ATN082268 »

 

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