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Author Topic: Edge Case situational builds (RFP)  (Read 1031 times)

Cannonshop

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Edge Case situational builds (RFP)
« on: 01 May 2019, 17:06:27 »
Here's the first situation:

No jump-capable ship can be built over 200,000 tons, compact and subcompact cores are cheap, and planets average between 250,000,000 and 4 Billion residents (except for earth, with ten Billion residents).

Assume Battlemechs are still the most powerful ground units, and an average tech level otherwise of 3050 Clan Standard. (With the exception of compact core availability)

Design a core  fleet unit (aka a 'baseline warship') for expeditionary work against a major state working under the same constraints, with a hard budget of your total fleet beign no more than 50 total ships.  (this includes transport jumpships, as well as dedicated compact-core-warships).

bonus points for outlining how your fleet units work together on a tactical and strategic level to conquer or secure systems.
The core rules for interacting with me:

1.) I am not a moderator, game developer, member of Cryptic staff, relative of any members of cryptic staff, not close friends with anyone involved with the game, not a distributor of product, not an employee, employer, professional reviewer, or member of any powerful conspiracies.  What I think is my own and has no impact on the Battletech franchise in any way, shape, or form.

2) If you don't like something I've said, refer to rule 1.  If you do, god help you poor soul, you're screwed up.

Alsadius

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Re: Edge Case situational builds (RFP)
« Reply #1 on: 02 May 2019, 10:08:57 »
I really like this idea. I'll give it some thought.

Follow-up question: how big are major states? Same size as the big five in 3025, or smaller? Because 50 JumpShips to sustain an empire that size is not nearly enough for internal commerce, and having enough internal commerce to move commercial goods around means there's a lot of civilian JumpShips that could be used for military purposes in a pinch. It'll also affect how the fleet gets divided up, and how many planets I'd want to attack in an offensive.

Cannonshop

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Re: Edge Case situational builds (RFP)
« Reply #2 on: 02 May 2019, 13:08:30 »
I really like this idea. I'll give it some thought.

Follow-up question: how big are major states? Same size as the big five in 3025, or smaller? Because 50 JumpShips to sustain an empire that size is not nearly enough for internal commerce, and having enough internal commerce to move commercial goods around means there's a lot of civilian JumpShips that could be used for military purposes in a pinch. It'll also affect how the fleet gets divided up, and how many planets I'd want to attack in an offensive.

assume between 40 and 100 worlds/systems total, and roughly between 130 and 300 light years across.
The core rules for interacting with me:

1.) I am not a moderator, game developer, member of Cryptic staff, relative of any members of cryptic staff, not close friends with anyone involved with the game, not a distributor of product, not an employee, employer, professional reviewer, or member of any powerful conspiracies.  What I think is my own and has no impact on the Battletech franchise in any way, shape, or form.

2) If you don't like something I've said, refer to rule 1.  If you do, god help you poor soul, you're screwed up.

The_Caveman

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Re: Edge Case situational builds (RFP)
« Reply #3 on: 02 May 2019, 13:24:30 »
compact and subcompact cores are cheap

How cheap is cheap? If I can cost-effectively replace an Invader with a ship that can maneuver and defend itself, I don't see the point of buying any standard JumpShips for military roles.
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

Cannonshop

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Re: Edge Case situational builds (RFP)
« Reply #4 on: 02 May 2019, 13:48:20 »
How cheap is cheap? If I can cost-effectively replace an Invader with a ship that can maneuver and defend itself, I don't see the point of buying any standard JumpShips for military roles.

multiplier changes:

"Primitive" (15LY core): x.75
Base "Standard" jumpship core: x1
Compact Core: x1.25
Sub-compact core: x2.5

iow a "Primitive" core costs 3/4 as much per ton of ship as a 'Standard' 30LY jumcore (like your invader)
a Warship "Compact" core costs 1 1/4 as much per ton,
and a subcompact costs 2 and 1/2 times as much per ton.

(Note this is a fairly significant departure from CBT's canon costs for these types).

But, you're also limited to a maximum jump-capable size of 200,000 tons, and with that, a theoretical "Fleet tonnage maximum" in total vessels of fifty times that, I think we'll include dropships in that tonnage as a factor to force creativity, your entire fleet's maximum throw weight in jump and drop ships is Ten Million metric tons (not including fighter and smaller shuttles).

as are those fleets of your potential rivals.

for pricing we'll use C-bills as a base currency, since most of the generation rules you'll be abusing (or using) as well as most of the software, use C-bills standard for cost calculations, but we're really focusing on tonnage questions here-you have a fairly large number of worlds, across a fairly large area of space, with a fairly restricted amount of tonnage to protect them, and a cap on the largest hull you can produce in order to do so...and they're hostile, so (presumably) are you.  (resources must be gathered, you must build more pylons and so on.)

presumably a maximum fleet size of maximum sized ships will give an enormous throw-weight in space combat, but that hamstrings your ability to deploy ground forces as you're not going to be able to equip dropships if all of your fleet units are at max tonnage. (You ONLY have 10 million tons to play with here for your entire fleet!)

so you'll have to work out a balancing act, or articulate tactics using shuttles and fighters that allows you to deploy effective ground forces in addition to your space-naval forces.

which means you will likely have to allocate tonnage to transport ships, dropships for them to carry, and escorting vessels of some sort to protect these as well as your 200,000 ton battlewagons.

given that, an Intruder might be a fairly useful vessel to have a few of, and certainly cheaper to replace or maintain, than a core of exclusively compact and subcompact core warships-but that's a matter of your naval doctrine given the limits in the challenge.

The core rules for interacting with me:

1.) I am not a moderator, game developer, member of Cryptic staff, relative of any members of cryptic staff, not close friends with anyone involved with the game, not a distributor of product, not an employee, employer, professional reviewer, or member of any powerful conspiracies.  What I think is my own and has no impact on the Battletech franchise in any way, shape, or form.

2) If you don't like something I've said, refer to rule 1.  If you do, god help you poor soul, you're screwed up.

Alsadius

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Re: Edge Case situational builds (RFP)
« Reply #5 on: 02 May 2019, 13:54:56 »
If DropShips count in tonnage, C-bills are probably not set up how you want. They mostly measure the number of collars and L-F batteries on your fleet(other components are nearly irrelevant). Collars need to be balanced by cost because they're OP as hell by game rules - 1000 tons will buy you a single NL-45 with heat sinks, or it'll buy you a Conquistador. Gee, I wonder which is better?.

(Yes, I'm getting nitpicky, but that's half the fun here :P )

The_Caveman

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Re: Edge Case situational builds (RFP)
« Reply #6 on: 02 May 2019, 14:34:32 »
Sounds like the near-optimum solution then is going to be shuttle carriers and lots of them, with a few beachhead DropShips to open up LZs into which the shuttles can pour.

With states roughly 1/5 the size of a Successor State I presume we'll have total ground forces equivalent to 20 'Mech regiments or so. Shuffling half of that at any given time would take 80-odd Unions or 30-something Overlords, so the JumpShips to carry them would eat up a large chunk of the available fleet berths.

Would you mind allowing subcompact-core ships to be built up to 100,000 tons so there is no inexplicable tonnage gap between subcompact and compact ships?
Half the fun of BattleTech is the mental gymnastics required to scientifically rationalize design choices made decades ago entirely based on the Rule of Cool.

The other half is a first-turn AC/2 shot TAC to your gyro that causes your Atlas to fall and smash its own cockpit... wait, I said fun didn't I?

nroe03742

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Re: Edge Case situational builds (RFP)
« Reply #7 on: 02 May 2019, 15:12:18 »
here is my answer to this challenge

I have designed two ships... well really one ship and a modified version of it

the fleet will be made up of 20 of each so that will leave me enough weight to fill out the fleet with drop ships since I can not go over the max fleet weight.

here is the main ship that will carry all of the small craft for the fleet.

Code: [Select]
Orion Carrier MK I
Mass: 200,000 tons
Technology Base: Mixed (Advanced)
Introduced: 3050
Mass: 200,000
Battle Value: 27,657
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 12,536,454,000 C-bills

Fuel: 4,000 tons (20,000)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 6
Heat Sinks: 2451 (4902)
Structural Integrity: 50

Armor
    Nose: 63
    Fore Sides: 52/52
    Aft Sides: 46/46
    Aft: 31

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Cargo (25000.0 tons)    1 Door   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (60)        9 Doors   

Ammunition:
    2,400 rounds of SRM 6 (Clan) Artemis-capable ammunition (8 tons),
    960 rounds of LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable ammunition (8 tons),
    2,400 rounds of Streak SRM 6 ammunition (8 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 2
Grav Decks: 2 (250 m, 250 m)
Escape Pods: 93
Life Boats: 93
Crew:  24 officers, 76 enlisted/non-rated, 41 gunners, 300 bay personnel, 300 passengers, 114 BA marines

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Communications Equipment (15 ton)
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Large)
200 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                            Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                      Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (230 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                                    50   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 Small Pulse Laser                            20   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
4 LRM 20+Artemis IV                             24   5(48)   5(48)   5(48)     0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (720 shots)
4 SRM 6+Artemis IV                              32   8(80)   5(48)    0(0)     0(0)   SRM         
    4 Streak SRM 6+Artemis IV
    Streak SRM 6 Ammo (4500 shots)
    SRM 6 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (4500 shots)
2 Naval Laser 35                                104  7(70)   7(70)   7(70)     0(0)   Capital Laser
FRS/FLS (230 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                                    50   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 Small Pulse Laser                            20   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
4 LRM 20+Artemis IV                             24   5(48)   5(48)   5(48)     0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (720 shots)
4 SRM 6+Artemis IV                              32   8(80)   5(48)    0(0)     0(0)   SRM         
    4 Streak SRM 6+Artemis IV
    Streak SRM 6 Ammo (4500 shots)
    SRM 6 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (4500 shots)
2 Naval Laser 35                                104  7(70)   7(70)   7(70)     0(0)   Capital Laser
RBS/LBS (178 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                                    50   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 Small Pulse Laser                            20   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
4 LRM 20+Artemis IV                             24   5(48)   5(48)   5(48)     0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (720 shots)
4 SRM 6+Artemis IV                              32   8(80)   5(48)    0(0)     0(0)   SRM         
    4 Streak SRM 6+Artemis IV
    Streak SRM 6 Ammo (4500 shots)
    SRM 6 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (4500 shots)
1 Naval Laser 35                                52   4(35)   4(35)   4(35)     0(0)   Capital Laser
ARS/ALS (178 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                                    50   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 Small Pulse Laser                            20   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
4 LRM 20+Artemis IV                             24   5(48)   5(48)   5(48)     0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (720 shots)
4 SRM 6+Artemis IV                              32   8(80)   5(48)    0(0)     0(0)   SRM         
    4 Streak SRM 6+Artemis IV
    Streak SRM 6 Ammo (4500 shots)
    SRM 6 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (4500 shots)
1 Naval Laser 35                                52   4(35)   4(35)   4(35)     0(0)   Capital Laser
Aft (178 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                                    50   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 Small Pulse Laser                            20   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
4 LRM 20+Artemis IV                             24   5(48)   5(48)   5(48)     0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (720 shots)
4 SRM 6+Artemis IV                              32   8(80)   5(48)    0(0)     0(0)   SRM         
    4 Streak SRM 6+Artemis IV
    Streak SRM 6 Ammo (4500 shots)
    SRM 6 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (4500 shots)
1 Naval Laser 35                                52   4(35)   4(35)   4(35)     0(0)   Capital Laser


here is the modified version of it to give it an escort

Code: [Select]
Orion Cruiser MK I
Mass: 200,000 tons
Technology Base: Mixed (Advanced)
Introduced: 3050
Mass: 200,000
Battle Value: 34,100
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 12,552,774,000 C-bills

Fuel: 5,000 tons (25,000)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 6
Heat Sinks: 2451 (4902)
Structural Integrity: 50

Armor
    Nose: 63
    Fore Sides: 52/52
    Aft Sides: 46/46
    Aft: 31

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Cargo (25000.0 tons)    1 Door   

Ammunition:
    2,400 rounds of SRM 6 (Clan) Artemis-capable ammunition (8 tons),
    960 rounds of LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable ammunition (8 tons),
    2,400 rounds of Streak SRM 6 ammunition (8 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 2
Grav Decks: 2 (250 m, 250 m)
Escape Pods: 47
Life Boats: 47
Crew:  26 officers, 74 enlisted/non-rated, 66 gunners, 114 BA marines

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Communications Equipment (15 ton)
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Large)
200 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                            Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                      Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (315 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                                    50   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 Small Pulse Laser                            20   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
4 LRM 20+Artemis IV                             24   5(48)   5(48)   5(48)     0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (720 shots)
4 SRM 6+Artemis IV                              32   8(80)   5(48)    0(0)     0(0)   SRM         
    4 Streak SRM 6+Artemis IV
    Streak SRM 6 Ammo (4500 shots)
    SRM 6 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (4500 shots)
1 Naval Laser 55                                189  13(125) 13(125) 13(125)  6(55)   Capital Laser
    2 Naval Laser 35
FRS/FLS (315 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                                    50   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 Small Pulse Laser                            20   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
4 LRM 20+Artemis IV                             24   5(48)   5(48)   5(48)     0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (720 shots)
4 SRM 6+Artemis IV                              32   8(80)   5(48)    0(0)     0(0)   SRM         
    4 Streak SRM 6+Artemis IV
    Streak SRM 6 Ammo (4500 shots)
    SRM 6 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (4500 shots)
1 Naval Laser 55                                189  13(125) 13(125) 13(125)  6(55)   Capital Laser
    2 Naval Laser 35
RBS/LBS (315 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                                    50   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 Small Pulse Laser                            20   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
4 LRM 20+Artemis IV                             24   5(48)   5(48)   5(48)     0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (720 shots)
4 SRM 6+Artemis IV                              32   8(80)   5(48)    0(0)     0(0)   SRM         
    4 Streak SRM 6+Artemis IV
    Streak SRM 6 Ammo (4500 shots)
    SRM 6 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (4500 shots)
1 Naval Laser 55                                189  13(125) 13(125) 13(125)  6(55)   Capital Laser
    2 Naval Laser 35
ARS/ALS (315 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                                    50   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 Small Pulse Laser                            20   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
4 LRM 20+Artemis IV                             24   5(48)   5(48)   5(48)     0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (720 shots)
4 SRM 6+Artemis IV                              32   8(80)   5(48)    0(0)     0(0)   SRM         
    4 Streak SRM 6+Artemis IV
    Streak SRM 6 Ammo (4500 shots)
    SRM 6 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (4500 shots)
1 Naval Laser 55                                189  13(125) 13(125) 13(125)  6(55)   Capital Laser
    2 Naval Laser 35
Aft (315 Heat)
10 Laser AMS                                    50   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
10 Small Pulse Laser                            20   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
4 LRM 20+Artemis IV                             24   5(48)   5(48)   5(48)     0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (720 shots)
4 SRM 6+Artemis IV                              32   8(80)   5(48)    0(0)     0(0)   SRM         
    4 Streak SRM 6+Artemis IV
    Streak SRM 6 Ammo (4500 shots)
    SRM 6 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo (4500 shots)
1 Naval Laser 55                                189  13(125) 13(125) 13(125)  6(55)   Capital Laser
    2 Naval Laser 35

this fleet gives me a total of 80 drop collars. which I fill with 30 Dragau Assualt Interceptor (Anti-Fighter), 30 Gremlin (Boarding Craft), 5 Mule Class Hospital, 5 Lee (3055) Armor, 5 Lee (3055), and 5 Titan (3065) Refit. see my folder that is attached to this post for the files for these designs.

Cannonshop

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  • Posts: 5254
Re: Edge Case situational builds (RFP)
« Reply #8 on: 02 May 2019, 23:31:45 »
Sounds like the near-optimum solution then is going to be shuttle carriers and lots of them, with a few beachhead DropShips to open up LZs into which the shuttles can pour.

With states roughly 1/5 the size of a Successor State I presume we'll have total ground forces equivalent to 20 'Mech regiments or so. Shuffling half of that at any given time would take 80-odd Unions or 30-something Overlords, so the JumpShips to carry them would eat up a large chunk of the available fleet berths.

Would you mind allowing subcompact-core ships to be built up to 100,000 tons so there is no inexplicable tonnage gap between subcompact and compact ships?
it's about trade-offs, so...nah.  Sub-compact cores are stuck w/the canon size limits.
The core rules for interacting with me:

1.) I am not a moderator, game developer, member of Cryptic staff, relative of any members of cryptic staff, not close friends with anyone involved with the game, not a distributor of product, not an employee, employer, professional reviewer, or member of any powerful conspiracies.  What I think is my own and has no impact on the Battletech franchise in any way, shape, or form.

2) If you don't like something I've said, refer to rule 1.  If you do, god help you poor soul, you're screwed up.