Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...

[Daryk]

So, another thread got me thinking about cheap as possible Conventional Fighters.  The result is pretty cheap.  At the tournament-legal level, a 5-ton Conventional Fighter (5/8 with VSTOL equipment and an integral RL-10 on top of its External Hard Point) only costs 73,834 C-Bills.  Granted, it can only fend off small arms fire, but an RL-10 plus whatever you stuff into that Hard Point can ruin anyone's day, especially when you bring more than one (a LOT more than one given the price)... 

Code: [Select]

F-5T (Tournament) Tons Cost
Tonnage 5 0.025 Multiplier
Engine 1 2,083 25 5/8 Thrust
VSTOL 0.5 2,500
SI 0 20,000
Fuel 2 400 320 points
Armor 0.5 5,000 2 points nose, 1 point everywhere else
Avionics 0.5 2,000
Attitude Thruster 0 25,000
Landing Gear 0 50
RL-10 0.5 15,000 Nose
Sub-Total 5 72,033
Total 73,834


[Daryk]

Applying Fractional Accounting gets you a second RL-10 for a bit more cash (85,365):

Code: [Select]

F-5D (Dual RL-10s) Tons Cost
Tonnage 5 0.025
Engine 1 2,083 25 5/8 Thrust
VSTOL 0.25 1,250
SI 0 20,000 Multiplier
Fuel 2 400 320 points
Armor 0.25 2,500 1 point everywhere
Avionics 0.5 2,000
Attitude Thruster 0 25,000
Landing Gear 0 50
2 RL-10s 1 30,000
Sub-Total 5 83,283
Total 85,365


[Daryk]

Now going full on "Illegal" and using an internal LAM Bomb Bay, you lose an RL-10, but gain a LOT of flexibility and and quite the discount (59,740)...

Code: [Select]

F-5E (External stores) Tons Cost
Tonnage 5 0.025 Multiplier
Engine 1 2,083 25 5/8 Thrust
VSTOL 0.25 1,250
SI 0 20,000
Fuel 2 400 320 points
Armor 0.25 2,500 1 point everywhere
Avionics 0.5 2,000
Attitude Thruster 0 25,000
Landing Gear 0 50
Internal Bomb Bay 1 5,000 Illegal (only for LAMs per IO)
Sub-Total 5 58,283
Total 59,740


[Decoy]

Thought. The Bomb bay quirk turns cargo space into bomb bays without mucking about with the LAM stuff?

Also

Quickcell Aerospace: Introducing the terms Rapid Unplanned Disassembly and Lithobreaking to the Battletech Universe.

[Daryk]

Well, the ejection seat MIGHT work... 

[chanman]

Thought. The Bomb bay quirk turns cargo space into bomb bays without mucking about with the LAM stuff?

Also

Quickcell Aerospace: Introducing the terms Rapid Unplanned Disassembly and Lithobreaking to the Battletech Universe.

As long as your enemies undergo rapider unplanned disassembly, your dirtbag suicidal cropduster jockeys will still come out ahead! 

Just remind them to stop referring to incoming raiders as lootboxes on an open channel, or they might scare the payday away.

[Daryk]

The truly scary thing is you can get 3 of the cheapest ones for 2 Savannah Masters... 

As for the quirk angle, that makes cost calculation a bit more complicated, but I LOVE the idea! 

[DOC_Agren]

BAHAHAHAHA  release the waves..  pray they don't have shotguns 

wait did you say it was made by Quickcell?  Where are you going to get enough pilots for it?

[chanman]

BAHAHAHAHA  release the waves..  pray they don't have shotguns 

wait did you say it was made by Quickcell?  Where are you going to get enough pilots for it?

The peasantry. It's a renewable resource!

[glitterboy2098]

remember, while Quickcell makes low budget vehicles, they at least attempt to make them useful designs on paper. the issues usually just stem from the fact that you get what you pay for, and low tech and simple design means not very survivable individually.

the main problem is that at only 5 tons, it can't carry a useful warload.. just a single bomb. (fighters carry 1 bomb hardpoint per 5 tons). so if you want a useful warload, you really need to up the mass to at least 20 tons.

also you'd want both higher speed (to offset the bomb load and at least pretend that the user might be able to survive a bombing run) and more fuel so it has a useful range.. for non-combat flights if nothing else.

like so:

Code: [Select]

Tiger F5A

Mass: 20 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 160 ICE
Cruising Speed: 86.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 129.6 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     2 Machine Gun
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-X-X-C
Cost: 181,097 C-bills

Type:  Tiger
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 20
Battle Value: 76

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        160 ICE                12
Safe Thrust: 8
Max Thrust: 12
Structural Integrity:         0                       
Heat Sinks:                   0                       0
Fuel:                         480                   3.0
Cockpit                                               2
Armor Factor                  20                    1.5

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    6     
     Wings                  5/5   
     Aft                     4     


Weapons
and Ammo                      Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
2 Machine Guns                  NOS       1.0      0      2    0    0    0 
Half Machine Gun Ammo (100)     FSLG      0.5      -      -    -    -    - 


can carry a 4 bomb payload in at 7/11 and then book it out of there at 8/12. the MG's are there mainly as ego boost for the pilots, but they do give it minimal air to air ability. 3 tons of gas give it great range across most of a hemisphere.. and remember gas is cheap. the armor sucks but can be accurately described in marketing as "heavy" given it is the max that can be carried.

and you could swap the MG's for a quartet of RL-10's easily enough. but those might give the pilots delusions of air combat effectiveness.

[CVB]

I love the F-5!

For even more decentralized guerrilla warfare, you could include a flotation hull at no weight, performance and monetary cost (TO:AUE p. 114: "Hover, WiGE, and VTOL Combat Vehicles, as well as Conventional Fighters, at no cost in weight or space (though flotation hull designs will increase the unit’s final cost)." TO:AUE p. 193 adds Chassis Modifiers only to CVs, not CFs. Not sure if this intentional or an oversight) and base a fighter from any fishing boat with a bit of cargo and crew space.

Given that almost half the armor is wasted anyway and even a MG or AC/2 will punch through most of the time, I might change that armor to another RL-10. And since the F-5s job is to fly straight to the target, unload one salvo and get the hell out of Dodge, I might even switch a half or even full ton of fuel to more RL-10s. When 160 fuel points are not enough, I can still use an external fuel pod.

Edit: I just saw that switching to a fusion engine increases the price by only about 6500 CBills. The 25 is even in production for the Savannah Master. Might pay for itself when you can use an existing logistic fuel chain.
Edit2: I was wrong on the financial costs of a flotation hull. Actually, there is a final x1.25 price multiplier

[Giovanni Blasini]

I love the F-5!

For even more decentralized guerrilla warfare, you could include a flotation hull at no weight, performance and monetary cost (TO:AUE p. 114: "Hover, WiGE, and VTOL Combat Vehicles, as well as Conventional Fighters, at no cost in weight or space (though flotation hull designs will increase the unit’s final cost)." TO:AUE p. 193 adds Chassis Modifiers only to CVs, not CFs. Not sure if this intentional or an oversight) and base a fighter from any fishing boat with a bit of cargo and crew space.

Given that almost half the armor is wasted anyway and even a MG or AC/2 will punch through most of the time, I might change that armor to another RL-10. And since the F-5s job is to fly straight to the target, unload one salvo and get the hell out of Dodge, I might even switch a half or even full ton of fuel to more RL-10s. When 160 fuel points are not enough, I can still use an external fuel pod.

Edit: I just saw that switching to a fusion engine increases the price by only about 6500 CBills. The 25 is even in production for the Savannah Master. Might pay for itself when you can use an existing logistic fuel chain.

Do eeet.  With a floatation hull, it can land on water, use its fusion power to split water to hydrogen and oxygen, and use the hydrogen for the reaction mass to fly with.

[Daryk]

Glitterboy: I went with 2 tons of fuel because that's what the Boeing Jump Bomber has.  And as far as weapon load, two RL-10s and a single bomb is just fine (for the Fractional Accounting version with permanently installed RL-10s), really.  The cheaper and more flexible version with an internal bomb bay potentially loses one RL-10, but can install a wide variety of other things without losing any speed.  And it still has that external hard point too.

CVB and Gio: As far as the Flotation Hull, the table on page 407 of the single volume of TacOps does list Fighters as possible, and gives a x1.25 multiplier to total cost.  With the fusion engine and flotation hull (and using the Internal Bomb Bay quirk to eliminate the cost of that), it comes to 76,341, barely more expensive than the tournament legal version (I threw the extra quarter ton from the lighter engine into more fuel for 360 total).  Also, the cost of the non-floating ICE engine version drops to 54,615 with the Internal Bomb Bay... 

Code: [Select]

F-5F (Fusion/Flotation) Tons Cost
Tonnage 5 0.025
Engine 0.75 8,333 25 5/8 Thrust
VSTOL 0.25 1,250
SI 0 20,000
Fuel 2.25 450 360 points
Armor 0.25 2,500 1 point everywhere
Avionics 0.5 2,000
Attitude Thruster 0 25,000
Landing Gear 0 50
Cargo 1   0    Internal Bomb Bay quirk
Sub-Total 5 59,583
Total 61,073
Flotation Hull 1.25 76,341


[BATTLEMASTER]

What's the BV on your designs Daryk?  I stopped caring about official C-Bill costs and came up with a BC-to-C-Bill conversion to pay for performance.  If Glitterboy's design is 76 BV, I can't imagine yours being higher than 50.

[CVB]

As far as the Flotation Hull, the table on page 407 of the single volume of TacOps does list Fighters as possible, and gives a x1.25 multiplier to total cost.

You are right on the price modifier, I have changed my post above accordingly.
MML seems to have a bug there, as well...

[Daryk]

I'll give BV a shot... I never use it myself, and I have no idea how you cost quirks.  This may take a little while...

[Daryk]

If my math is right, the F-5T (Tournament legal version with 1 RL-10) has a BV of 49 with no external stores loaded.

The F-5D (Dual RL-10 version with just Fractional Accounting) is 71 BV "slick".

The F-5E (for External stores with an internal bomb bay version) comes out to 22 BV with no stores loaded (i.e., with a zero OBR).  Stuffing a laser guided bomb (20 BV each) into the bay and another on the external hard point gets it up to 77.  Cheaper cluster bombs would only boost it to 58, while bog standard HE would be 55.

The F-5F (Fusion and Flotation) seems to have the same 22 BV without stores.

If anyone gets different numbers, please let me know!

[Daryk]

I think I figured out what to do with quirks.

All variants have:
Bad Reputation -1
Difficult Ejection -1
Fragile Fuel Tank -2
Fast Reload +1

The F-5T and F-5D have:
Easy to Pilot +2 (which only helps regular and green pilots)
Easy to Maintain +1

The fiddly Internal Bomb Bay (+3) replaces both of those on the F-5E and F.

It also just struck me that if you wanted to go full guerilla with the F, the internal bomb bay should be replaced with a Medium Laser.  Then you'd only by limited by food... 

[Elmoth]

Another good thing.
Land with your aerodine dropship. Open the CARGO door. Assemble and launch a F-5 every 2.5 minutes using the landing strip you just used with the Leopard. You can carry 75 of those in a single 150 ton cargo bay. You might be needing some pilots for those, though.

It is certainly the Air Scorpion, or the Wasp of Conventional Fighters. Strength in numbers. Wasp Storm or Air Scorpion sound good as commercial names.

Flotation hull.... F-5 with a Condor supply Wige...

[Daryk]

Heh... the Internal Bomb Bay is still a CARGO bay, so you could do buddy resupply.  Heck, you could even pack consumables in an external pod... 

[CVB]

A pity that refueling drogues can't be pod mounted...

[Daryk]

They can't?  IRL that was solved in the 20th century...

[CVB]

Holy Shroud was obviously very effective, but also extremely peculiar about its topics

[chanman]

Hellraiser: I went with 2 tons of fuel because that's what the Boeing Jump Bomber has.  And as far as weapon load, two RL-10s and a single bomb is just fine (for the Fractional Accounting version with permanently installed RL-10s), really.  The cheaper and more flexible version with an internal bomb bay potentially loses one RL-10, but can install a wide variety of other things without losing any speed.  And it still has that external hard point too.

CVB and Gio: As far as the Flotation Hull, the table on page 407 of the single volume of TacOps does list Fighters as possible, and gives a x1.25 multiplier to total cost.  With the fusion engine and flotation hull (and using the Internal Bomb Bay quirk to eliminate the cost of that), it comes to 76,341, barely more expensive than the tournament legal version (I threw the extra quarter ton from the lighter engine into more fuel for 360 total).  Also, the cost of the non-floating ICE engine version drops to 54,615 with the Internal Bomb Bay... 

Code: [Select]

F-5F Tons Cost
Tonnage 5 0.025
Engine 0.75 8,333 25 5/8 Thrust
VSTOL 0.25 1,250
SI 0 20,000
Fuel 2.25 450 360 points
Armor 0.25 2,500 1 point everywhere
Avionics 0.5 2,000
Attitude Thruster 0 25,000
Landing Gear 0 50
Cargo 1   0    Internal Bomb Bay quirk
Sub-Total 5 59,583
Total 61,073
Flotation Hull 1.25 76,341


Conventional fighters are air breathers, so their fuel counts for double, doesn't it? I don't recall if that goes for fusion powered ones as well, but I think it does. The idea being that you're using air (suitably compressed and heated) as the reaction mass

[Daryk]

Fuel points per ton is based on the vehicle type, not the engine.  Conventional Fighters do indeed get twice as many per ton as ASF.

[glitterboy2098]

i'm trying to figure out which ruleset he's using, because there is a bunch of stuff on there that doesn't require individual tracking in the current Total War/Techmanual /Ops ruleset..

while MML can't do fractional accounting currently (unless i missed a setting somewhere, running his numbers through it see's the loss of the bomb bay.

Code: [Select]

New Aero

Mass: 5 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 25 ICE
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 Rocket Launcher 10
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-X-X-C
Cost: 95,359 C-bills

Type: New
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 5
Battle Value: 49

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        25 ICE                  1
Safe Thrust: 5
Max Thrust: 8
Structural Integrity:         0                       
VSTOL Equipment:                                    0.5
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Fuel:                         320                   2.0
Cockpit                                             0.5
Armor Factor                  5                     0.5

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    2     
     Wings                  1/1   
     Aft                     1     


Weapons
and Ammo              Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
Rocket Launcher 10      NOS       0.5      3      6    6    0    0 



and with flotation hull

Code: [Select]

New Aero

Mass: 5 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 25 ICE
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 Rocket Launcher 10
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-X-X-C
Cost: 95,359 C-bills

Type: New
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 5
Battle Value: 49

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        25 ICE                  1
Safe Thrust: 5
Max Thrust: 8
Structural Integrity:         0                       
VSTOL Equipment:                                    0.5
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Fuel:                         320                   2.0
Cockpit                                             0.5
Armor Factor                  5                     0.5

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    2     
     Wings                  1/1   
     Aft                     1     


Weapons
and Ammo                     Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
Rocket Launcher 10             NOS       0.5      3      6    6    0    0 
Combat Vehicle Chassis Mod     FSLG      0.0      -      -    -    -    - 



fusion with flotation hull

Code: [Select]

New Aero

Mass: 5 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 25 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 Rocket Launcher 10
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-X-X-D
Cost: 101,765 C-bills

Type: New
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 5
Battle Value: 49

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        25 Fusion               1
Safe Thrust: 5
Max Thrust: 8
Structural Integrity:         0                       
VSTOL Equipment:                                    0.5
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Fuel:                         320                   2.0
Cockpit                                             0.5
Armor Factor                  5                     0.5

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    2     
     Wings                  1/1   
     Aft                     1     


Weapons
and Ammo                     Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
Rocket Launcher 10             NOS       0.5      3      6    6    0    0 
Combat Vehicle Chassis Mod     FSLG      0.0      -      -    -    -    - 


its in that weird tonnage where the fusion and ICE engines round to the same mass, and only the cost is different.

[glitterboy2098]

and lets see what a 20 ton fusion and floatation hull version might look like.. other than being faster and tougher in general.

with 4 ton bomb bay

Code: [Select]

Tiger F5U

Mass: 20 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 160 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 86.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 129.6 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     2 Rocket Launcher 10
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-X-X-D
Cost: 380,527 C-bills

Type: Tiger
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 20
Battle Value: 130

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        160 Fusion              9
Safe Thrust: 8
Max Thrust: 12
Structural Integrity:         0                       
VSTOL Equipment:                                    1.0
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Fuel:                         320                   2.0
Cockpit                                               2
Armor Factor                  16                      1

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    5     
     Wings                  4/4   
     Aft                     3     


Weapons
and Ammo                     Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
2 Rocket Launcher 10s          NOS       1.0      3      6    6    0    0 
Cargo                          FSLG      4.0      -      -    -    -    - 
Combat Vehicle Chassis Mod     FSLG      0.0      -      -    -    -    - 

and "fire everything" version..

Code: [Select]

Tiger F5U

Mass: 20 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 160 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 86.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 129.6 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     10 Rocket Launcher 10
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-X-X-D
Cost: 521,327 C-bills

Type: Tiger
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 20
Battle Value: 368

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        160 Fusion              9
Safe Thrust: 8
Max Thrust: 12
Structural Integrity:         0                       
VSTOL Equipment:                                    1.0
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Fuel:                         320                   2.0
Cockpit                                               2
Armor Factor                  16                      1

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    5     
     Wings                  4/4   
     Aft                     3     


Weapons
and Ammo                     Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
4 Rocket Launcher 10s          NOS       2.0      3      6    6    0    0 
2 Rocket Launcher 10s          RWG       1.0      3      6    6    0    0 
Combat Vehicle Chassis Mod     FSLG      0.0      -      -    -    -    - 
2 Rocket Launcher 10s          LWG       1.0      3      6    6    0    0 
2 Rocket Launcher 10s          AFT       1.0      3      6    6    0    0 


and then a guerilla fighter friendly version with energy weapons so it doesn't need reloading.. though with the light armor it probably wouldn't last long anyway.

Code: [Select]

Tiger F5U

Mass: 20 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 160 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 86.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 129.6 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 Large Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-X-X-D
Cost: 455,327 C-bills

Type: Tiger
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 20
Battle Value: 294

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        160 Fusion              9
Safe Thrust: 8
Max Thrust: 12
Structural Integrity:         0                       
VSTOL Equipment:                                    1.0
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Fuel:                         320                   2.0
Cockpit                                               2
Armor Factor                  16                      1

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    5     
     Wings                  4/4   
     Aft                     3     


Weapons
and Ammo              Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
Large Laser             NOS       5.0      8      8    8    0    0 



[Daryk]

I hand jammed everything using Tech Manual and Fractional Accounting for everything except the tournament legal version.  The zero mass stuff is in there for C-Bill cost accounting.  The T and D versions have no bomb bay.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Y'now, these aren't conventional fighters per se, but support vehicles.  But, you could go with hordes of RL10-carrying Antonov An-2 knockoffs:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/non-combat-vehicles/antonov-an-2-rl10/

I've also got an imperfect fusion-powered conversion of the P-51 Mustang:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/non-combat-vehicles/rebuilding-the-p-51-mustang/

But, for that matter, you could always use the P-51D in XTRO:1945, too.

[Daryk]

I remember that Antonov thread... good times!