BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat

BattleTech Player Boards => Fan Designs and Rules => Aerospace => Topic started by: Daryk on 04 August 2021, 14:33:17

Title: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 04 August 2021, 14:33:17
So, another thread got me thinking about cheap as possible Conventional Fighters.  The result is pretty cheap.  At the tournament-legal level, a 5-ton Conventional Fighter (5/8 with VSTOL equipment and an integral RL-10 on top of its External Hard Point) only costs 73,834 C-Bills.  Granted, it can only fend off small arms fire, but an RL-10 plus whatever you stuff into that Hard Point can ruin anyone's day, especially when you bring more than one (a LOT more than one given the price)...  ^-^

Code: [Select]
F-5T (Tournament) Tons Cost
Tonnage 5 0.025 Multiplier
Engine 1 2,083 25 5/8 Thrust
VSTOL 0.5 2,500
SI 0 20,000
Fuel 2 400 320 points
Armor 0.5 5,000 2 points nose, 1 point everywhere else
Avionics 0.5 2,000
Attitude Thruster 0 25,000
Landing Gear 0 50
RL-10 0.5 15,000 Nose
Sub-Total 5 72,033
Total 73,834
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 04 August 2021, 14:38:01
Applying Fractional Accounting gets you a second RL-10 for a bit more cash (85,365):

Code: [Select]
F-5D (Dual RL-10s) Tons Cost
Tonnage 5 0.025
Engine 1 2,083 25 5/8 Thrust
VSTOL 0.25 1,250
SI 0 20,000 Multiplier
Fuel 2 400 320 points
Armor 0.25 2,500 1 point everywhere
Avionics 0.5 2,000
Attitude Thruster 0 25,000
Landing Gear 0 50
2 RL-10s 1 30,000
Sub-Total 5 83,283
Total 85,365
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 04 August 2021, 14:43:27
Now going full on "Illegal" and using an internal LAM Bomb Bay, you lose an RL-10, but gain a LOT of flexibility and and quite the discount (59,740)...

Code: [Select]
F-5E (External stores) Tons Cost
Tonnage 5 0.025 Multiplier
Engine 1 2,083 25 5/8 Thrust
VSTOL 0.25 1,250
SI 0 20,000
Fuel 2 400 320 points
Armor 0.25 2,500 1 point everywhere
Avionics 0.5 2,000
Attitude Thruster 0 25,000
Landing Gear 0 50
Internal Bomb Bay 1 5,000 Illegal (only for LAMs per IO)
Sub-Total 5 58,283
Total 59,740
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Decoy on 04 August 2021, 16:13:01
Thought. The Bomb bay quirk turns cargo space into bomb bays without mucking about with the LAM stuff?

Also

Quickcell Aerospace: Introducing the terms Rapid Unplanned Disassembly and Lithobreaking to the Battletech Universe.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 04 August 2021, 16:22:42
Well, the ejection seat MIGHT work...  :D
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: chanman on 04 August 2021, 16:34:38
Thought. The Bomb bay quirk turns cargo space into bomb bays without mucking about with the LAM stuff?

Also

Quickcell Aerospace: Introducing the terms Rapid Unplanned Disassembly and Lithobreaking to the Battletech Universe.

As long as your enemies undergo rapider unplanned disassembly, your dirtbag suicidal cropduster jockeys will still come out ahead!  :D

Just remind them to stop referring to incoming raiders as lootboxes on an open channel, or they might scare the payday away.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 04 August 2021, 16:46:48
The truly scary thing is you can get 3 of the cheapest ones for 2 Savannah Masters...  ^-^

As for the quirk angle, that makes cost calculation a bit more complicated, but I LOVE the idea!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: DOC_Agren on 04 August 2021, 18:47:56
BAHAHAHAHA  release the waves..  pray they don't have shotguns 

wait did you say it was made by Quickcell?  Where are you going to get enough pilots for it?
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: chanman on 04 August 2021, 20:01:05
BAHAHAHAHA  release the waves..  pray they don't have shotguns 

wait did you say it was made by Quickcell?  Where are you going to get enough pilots for it?

The peasantry. It's a renewable resource!
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 05 August 2021, 01:59:37
remember, while Quickcell makes low budget vehicles, they at least attempt to make them useful designs on paper. the issues usually just stem from the fact that you get what you pay for, and low tech and simple design means not very survivable individually.

the main problem is that at only 5 tons, it can't carry a useful warload.. just a single bomb. (fighters carry 1 bomb hardpoint per 5 tons). so if you want a useful warload, you really need to up the mass to at least 20 tons.

also you'd want both higher speed (to offset the bomb load and at least pretend that the user might be able to survive a bombing run) and more fuel so it has a useful range.. for non-combat flights if nothing else.

like so:

Code: [Select]
Tiger F5A

Mass: 20 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 160 ICE
Cruising Speed: 86.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 129.6 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     2 Machine Gun
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-X-X-C
Cost: 181,097 C-bills

Type:  Tiger
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 20
Battle Value: 76

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        160 ICE                12
Safe Thrust: 8
Max Thrust: 12
Structural Integrity:         0                       
Heat Sinks:                   0                       0
Fuel:                         480                   3.0
Cockpit                                               2
Armor Factor                  20                    1.5

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    6     
     Wings                  5/5   
     Aft                     4     


Weapons
and Ammo                      Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
2 Machine Guns                  NOS       1.0      0      2    0    0    0 
Half Machine Gun Ammo (100)     FSLG      0.5      -      -    -    -    - 


can carry a 4 bomb payload in at 7/11 and then book it out of there at 8/12. the MG's are there mainly as ego boost for the pilots, but they do give it minimal air to air ability. 3 tons of gas give it great range across most of a hemisphere.. and remember gas is cheap. the armor sucks but can be accurately described in marketing as "heavy" given it is the max that can be carried.

and you could swap the MG's for a quartet of RL-10's easily enough. but those might give the pilots delusions of air combat effectiveness.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: CVB on 05 August 2021, 02:32:36
I love the F-5!

For even more decentralized guerrilla warfare, you could include a flotation hull at no weight, performance and monetary cost (TO:AUE p. 114: "Hover, WiGE, and VTOL Combat Vehicles, as well as Conventional Fighters, at no cost in weight or space (though flotation hull designs will increase the unit’s final cost)." TO:AUE p. 193 adds Chassis Modifiers only to CVs, not CFs. Not sure if this intentional or an oversight) and base a fighter from any fishing boat with a bit of cargo and crew space.

Given that almost half the armor is wasted anyway and even a MG or AC/2 will punch through most of the time, I might change that armor to another RL-10. And since the F-5s job is to fly straight to the target, unload one salvo and get the hell out of Dodge, I might even switch a half or even full ton of fuel to more RL-10s. When 160 fuel points are not enough, I can still use an external fuel pod.

Edit: I just saw that switching to a fusion engine increases the price by only about 6500 CBills. The 25 is even in production for the Savannah Master. Might pay for itself when you can use an existing logistic fuel chain.
Edit2: I was wrong on the financial costs of a flotation hull. Actually, there is a final x1.25 price multiplier
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 05 August 2021, 03:15:46
I love the F-5!

For even more decentralized guerrilla warfare, you could include a flotation hull at no weight, performance and monetary cost (TO:AUE p. 114: "Hover, WiGE, and VTOL Combat Vehicles, as well as Conventional Fighters, at no cost in weight or space (though flotation hull designs will increase the unit’s final cost)." TO:AUE p. 193 adds Chassis Modifiers only to CVs, not CFs. Not sure if this intentional or an oversight) and base a fighter from any fishing boat with a bit of cargo and crew space.

Given that almost half the armor is wasted anyway and even a MG or AC/2 will punch through most of the time, I might change that armor to another RL-10. And since the F-5s job is to fly straight to the target, unload one salvo and get the hell out of Dodge, I might even switch a half or even full ton of fuel to more RL-10s. When 160 fuel points are not enough, I can still use an external fuel pod.

Edit: I just saw that switching to a fusion engine increases the price by only about 6500 CBills. The 25 is even in production for the Savannah Master. Might pay for itself when you can use an existing logistic fuel chain.

Do eeet.  With a floatation hull, it can land on water, use its fusion power to split water to hydrogen and oxygen, and use the hydrogen for the reaction mass to fly with.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 05 August 2021, 04:48:26
Glitterboy: I went with 2 tons of fuel because that's what the Boeing Jump Bomber has.  And as far as weapon load, two RL-10s and a single bomb is just fine (for the Fractional Accounting version with permanently installed RL-10s), really.  The cheaper and more flexible version with an internal bomb bay potentially loses one RL-10, but can install a wide variety of other things without losing any speed.  And it still has that external hard point too.

CVB and Gio: As far as the Flotation Hull, the table on page 407 of the single volume of TacOps does list Fighters as possible, and gives a x1.25 multiplier to total cost.  With the fusion engine and flotation hull (and using the Internal Bomb Bay quirk to eliminate the cost of that), it comes to 76,341, barely more expensive than the tournament legal version (I threw the extra quarter ton from the lighter engine into more fuel for 360 total).  Also, the cost of the non-floating ICE engine version drops to 54,615 with the Internal Bomb Bay...  >:D

Code: [Select]
F-5F (Fusion/Flotation) Tons Cost
Tonnage 5 0.025
Engine 0.75 8,333 25 5/8 Thrust
VSTOL 0.25 1,250
SI 0 20,000
Fuel 2.25 450 360 points
Armor 0.25 2,500 1 point everywhere
Avionics 0.5 2,000
Attitude Thruster 0 25,000
Landing Gear 0 50
Cargo 1   0    Internal Bomb Bay quirk
Sub-Total 5 59,583
Total 61,073
Flotation Hull 1.25 76,341
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: BATTLEMASTER on 05 August 2021, 06:17:48
What's the BV on your designs Daryk?  I stopped caring about official C-Bill costs and came up with a BC-to-C-Bill conversion to pay for performance.  If Glitterboy's design is 76 BV, I can't imagine yours being higher than 50.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: CVB on 05 August 2021, 06:20:52
As far as the Flotation Hull, the table on page 407 of the single volume of TacOps does list Fighters as possible, and gives a x1.25 multiplier to total cost.
You are right on the price modifier, I have changed my post above accordingly.
MML seems to have a bug there, as well...
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 05 August 2021, 06:22:09
I'll give BV a shot... I never use it myself, and I have no idea how you cost quirks.  This may take a little while...
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 05 August 2021, 06:59:35
If my math is right, the F-5T (Tournament legal version with 1 RL-10) has a BV of 49 with no external stores loaded.

The F-5D (Dual RL-10 version with just Fractional Accounting) is 71 BV "slick".

The F-5E (for External stores with an internal bomb bay version) comes out to 22 BV with no stores loaded (i.e., with a zero OBR).  Stuffing a laser guided bomb (20 BV each) into the bay and another on the external hard point gets it up to 77.  Cheaper cluster bombs would only boost it to 58, while bog standard HE would be 55.

The F-5F (Fusion and Flotation) seems to have the same 22 BV without stores.

If anyone gets different numbers, please let me know!
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 05 August 2021, 07:28:59
I think I figured out what to do with quirks.

All variants have:
Bad Reputation -1
Difficult Ejection -1
Fragile Fuel Tank -2
Fast Reload +1

The F-5T and F-5D have:
Easy to Pilot +2 (which only helps regular and green pilots)
Easy to Maintain +1

The fiddly Internal Bomb Bay (+3) replaces both of those on the F-5E and F.

It also just struck me that if you wanted to go full guerilla with the F, the internal bomb bay should be replaced with a Medium Laser.  Then you'd only by limited by food...  ^-^
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Elmoth on 05 August 2021, 08:52:06
Another good thing.
Land with your aerodine dropship. Open the CARGO door. Assemble and launch a F-5 every 2.5 minutes using the landing strip you just used with the Leopard. You can carry 75 of those in a single 150 ton cargo bay. You might be needing some pilots for those, though.

It is certainly the Air Scorpion, or the Wasp of Conventional Fighters. Strength in numbers. Wasp Storm or Air Scorpion sound good as commercial names.

Flotation hull.... F-5 with a Condor supply Wige...
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 05 August 2021, 09:36:29
Heh... the Internal Bomb Bay is still a CARGO bay, so you could do buddy resupply.  Heck, you could even pack consumables in an external pod...  :D
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: CVB on 05 August 2021, 10:05:24
A pity that refueling drogues can't be pod mounted...
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 05 August 2021, 10:11:58
They can't?  IRL that was solved in the 20th century...
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: CVB on 05 August 2021, 11:08:08
Holy Shroud was obviously very effective, but also extremely peculiar about its topics ;)
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: chanman on 05 August 2021, 11:35:30
Hellraiser: I went with 2 tons of fuel because that's what the Boeing Jump Bomber has.  And as far as weapon load, two RL-10s and a single bomb is just fine (for the Fractional Accounting version with permanently installed RL-10s), really.  The cheaper and more flexible version with an internal bomb bay potentially loses one RL-10, but can install a wide variety of other things without losing any speed.  And it still has that external hard point too.

CVB and Gio: As far as the Flotation Hull, the table on page 407 of the single volume of TacOps does list Fighters as possible, and gives a x1.25 multiplier to total cost.  With the fusion engine and flotation hull (and using the Internal Bomb Bay quirk to eliminate the cost of that), it comes to 76,341, barely more expensive than the tournament legal version (I threw the extra quarter ton from the lighter engine into more fuel for 360 total).  Also, the cost of the non-floating ICE engine version drops to 54,615 with the Internal Bomb Bay...  >:D

Code: [Select]
F-5F Tons Cost
Tonnage 5 0.025
Engine 0.75 8,333 25 5/8 Thrust
VSTOL 0.25 1,250
SI 0 20,000
Fuel 2.25 450 360 points
Armor 0.25 2,500 1 point everywhere
Avionics 0.5 2,000
Attitude Thruster 0 25,000
Landing Gear 0 50
Cargo 1   0    Internal Bomb Bay quirk
Sub-Total 5 59,583
Total 61,073
Flotation Hull 1.25 76,341

Conventional fighters are air breathers, so their fuel counts for double, doesn't it? I don't recall if that goes for fusion powered ones as well, but I think it does. The idea being that you're using air (suitably compressed and heated) as the reaction mass
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 05 August 2021, 11:47:42
Fuel points per ton is based on the vehicle type, not the engine.  Conventional Fighters do indeed get twice as many per ton as ASF.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 05 August 2021, 14:41:22
i'm trying to figure out which ruleset he's using, because there is a bunch of stuff on there that doesn't require individual tracking in the current Total War/Techmanual /Ops ruleset..

while MML can't do fractional accounting currently (unless i missed a setting somewhere, running his numbers through it see's the loss of the bomb bay.

Code: [Select]
New Aero

Mass: 5 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 25 ICE
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 Rocket Launcher 10
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-X-X-C
Cost: 95,359 C-bills

Type: New
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 5
Battle Value: 49

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        25 ICE                  1
Safe Thrust: 5
Max Thrust: 8
Structural Integrity:         0                       
VSTOL Equipment:                                    0.5
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Fuel:                         320                   2.0
Cockpit                                             0.5
Armor Factor                  5                     0.5

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    2     
     Wings                  1/1   
     Aft                     1     


Weapons
and Ammo              Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
Rocket Launcher 10      NOS       0.5      3      6    6    0    0 



and with flotation hull
Code: [Select]
New Aero

Mass: 5 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 25 ICE
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 Rocket Launcher 10
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-X-X-C
Cost: 95,359 C-bills

Type: New
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 5
Battle Value: 49

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        25 ICE                  1
Safe Thrust: 5
Max Thrust: 8
Structural Integrity:         0                       
VSTOL Equipment:                                    0.5
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Fuel:                         320                   2.0
Cockpit                                             0.5
Armor Factor                  5                     0.5

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    2     
     Wings                  1/1   
     Aft                     1     


Weapons
and Ammo                     Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
Rocket Launcher 10             NOS       0.5      3      6    6    0    0 
Combat Vehicle Chassis Mod     FSLG      0.0      -      -    -    -    - 



fusion with flotation hull
Code: [Select]
New Aero

Mass: 5 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 25 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 Rocket Launcher 10
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-X-X-D
Cost: 101,765 C-bills

Type: New
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 5
Battle Value: 49

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        25 Fusion               1
Safe Thrust: 5
Max Thrust: 8
Structural Integrity:         0                       
VSTOL Equipment:                                    0.5
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Fuel:                         320                   2.0
Cockpit                                             0.5
Armor Factor                  5                     0.5

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    2     
     Wings                  1/1   
     Aft                     1     


Weapons
and Ammo                     Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
Rocket Launcher 10             NOS       0.5      3      6    6    0    0 
Combat Vehicle Chassis Mod     FSLG      0.0      -      -    -    -    - 


its in that weird tonnage where the fusion and ICE engines round to the same mass, and only the cost is different.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 05 August 2021, 14:53:34
and lets see what a 20 ton fusion and floatation hull version might look like.. other than being faster and tougher in general.

with 4 ton bomb bay
Code: [Select]
Tiger F5U

Mass: 20 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 160 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 86.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 129.6 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     2 Rocket Launcher 10
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-X-X-D
Cost: 380,527 C-bills

Type: Tiger
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 20
Battle Value: 130

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        160 Fusion              9
Safe Thrust: 8
Max Thrust: 12
Structural Integrity:         0                       
VSTOL Equipment:                                    1.0
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Fuel:                         320                   2.0
Cockpit                                               2
Armor Factor                  16                      1

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    5     
     Wings                  4/4   
     Aft                     3     


Weapons
and Ammo                     Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
2 Rocket Launcher 10s          NOS       1.0      3      6    6    0    0 
Cargo                          FSLG      4.0      -      -    -    -    - 
Combat Vehicle Chassis Mod     FSLG      0.0      -      -    -    -    - 

and "fire everything" version..
Code: [Select]
Tiger F5U

Mass: 20 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 160 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 86.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 129.6 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     10 Rocket Launcher 10
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-X-X-D
Cost: 521,327 C-bills

Type: Tiger
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 20
Battle Value: 368

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        160 Fusion              9
Safe Thrust: 8
Max Thrust: 12
Structural Integrity:         0                       
VSTOL Equipment:                                    1.0
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Fuel:                         320                   2.0
Cockpit                                               2
Armor Factor                  16                      1

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    5     
     Wings                  4/4   
     Aft                     3     


Weapons
and Ammo                     Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
4 Rocket Launcher 10s          NOS       2.0      3      6    6    0    0 
2 Rocket Launcher 10s          RWG       1.0      3      6    6    0    0 
Combat Vehicle Chassis Mod     FSLG      0.0      -      -    -    -    - 
2 Rocket Launcher 10s          LWG       1.0      3      6    6    0    0 
2 Rocket Launcher 10s          AFT       1.0      3      6    6    0    0 


and then a guerilla fighter friendly version with energy weapons so it doesn't need reloading.. though with the light armor it probably wouldn't last long anyway.
Code: [Select]
Tiger F5U

Mass: 20 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant: 160 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 86.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 129.6 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 Large Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-X-X-D
Cost: 455,327 C-bills

Type: Tiger
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 20
Battle Value: 294

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                        160 Fusion              9
Safe Thrust: 8
Max Thrust: 12
Structural Integrity:         0                       
VSTOL Equipment:                                    1.0
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Fuel:                         320                   2.0
Cockpit                                               2
Armor Factor                  16                      1

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    5     
     Wings                  4/4   
     Aft                     3     


Weapons
and Ammo              Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
Large Laser             NOS       5.0      8      8    8    0    0 

Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 05 August 2021, 14:59:03
I hand jammed everything using Tech Manual and Fractional Accounting for everything except the tournament legal version.  The zero mass stuff is in there for C-Bill cost accounting.  The T and D versions have no bomb bay.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Giovanni Blasini on 05 August 2021, 15:48:15
Y'now, these aren't conventional fighters per se, but support vehicles.  But, you could go with hordes of RL10-carrying Antonov An-2 knockoffs:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/non-combat-vehicles/antonov-an-2-rl10/

I've also got an imperfect fusion-powered conversion of the P-51 Mustang:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/non-combat-vehicles/rebuilding-the-p-51-mustang/

But, for that matter, you could always use the P-51D in XTRO:1945, too. :)
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 05 August 2021, 16:14:34
I remember that Antonov thread... good times!  8)
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: DOC_Agren on 05 August 2021, 18:11:43
?? what about using commercial grade armor?
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 05 August 2021, 18:50:56
?? what about using commercial grade armor?
not an option for fighters.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 05 August 2021, 19:52:37
When you're only throwing a quarter ton into armor at all, you're not really saving enough weight to matter.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: DOC_Agren on 05 August 2021, 22:31:54
I will say any "pilot" could be used to fly these..  Just they all pray they never see a real fighter, conventional or heaven help them an Aerospace Fighter

They remind me of the Me-163 Komet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_163_Komet)

with your 5 ton model, what about dropping to 1 ton of fuel for more rockets onboard?

and I know I'm tired and my normal gaming computer is acting up but what is "Combat Vehicle Chassis Mod"

Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: CVB on 06 August 2021, 01:08:25
and I know I'm tired and my normal gaming computer is acting up but what is "Combat Vehicle Chassis Mod"

Options from TO like environmental sealing, limited and full amphibious capability, and flotation hull. Mostly for Combat vehicles (hence the name), but Flotation Hull can also be applied to conventional fighters (Think Martin P6M SeaMaster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_P6M_SeaMaster) or Convair F2Y Sea Dart (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_F2Y_Sea_Dart)).
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Goose on 06 August 2021, 01:15:01
[coughs polity] (https://mordel.net/barandgrill.php?redirect=viewtopic&p=107087&highlight=#107087)
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 06 August 2021, 04:11:47
That one's more along the lines of glitteboy's 20-ton design.  It also costs roughly three to five times more than an F-5.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: DOC_Agren on 06 August 2021, 12:20:14
Options from TO like environmental sealing, limited and full amphibious capability, and flotation hull. Mostly for Combat vehicles (hence the name), but Flotation Hull can also be applied to conventional fighters (Think Martin P6M SeaMaster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_P6M_SeaMaster) or Convair F2Y Sea Dart (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_F2Y_Sea_Dart)).
thank you
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Goose on 06 August 2021, 14:48:20
 :-\ Alright:

Code: [Select]
                    AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
                                  VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name:  Tom Bruck
Tech:              Inner Sphere / 3067
Vessel Type:       Conventional Fighter
Rules:             Level 3, Standard design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              5 tons
Length:            7 meters
Power Plant:       25 Turbine
Safe Thrust:       5
Maximum Thrust:    8
Armor Type:        Standard
Armament:         
    3 RL 10 (OS)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Tom Bruck
Mass:              5 tons
Construction Options:  Fractional Accounting

Equipment:                                                              Mass
Power Plant:  25 Turbine                                                 1.00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 5  (4 at max bomb load)
      Maximum Thrust: 8  (6 at max bomb load)
Structural Integrity: 5                                                   .00
VSTOL Equipment:                                                          .50
Total Heat Sinks:    0 Single                                             .00
Fuel:                                                                    1.00
Cockpit, Avionics & Attitude Thrusters:                                   .50
Armor Type:  Standard  (5 total armor pts)                                .31
                           Standard Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Nose:                                  2
   Left/Right Wings:                   1/1
   Aft:                                   1

Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 RL 10 (OS)               Nose         6      6     --     --    0      1.50
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                                     Heat: 0      4.81
Tons Left:                                                                .19

External Stores Load:
   1 Fuel                           (1 tons)
   Total Stores Load               1 tons total
   Note: Safe Thrust is reduced from 5 to 4 at max bomb load.

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        103,432 C-Bills
Battle Value:      105
Cost per BV:       985.06
Weapon Value:      157 (Ratio = 1.50)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 15;  MRV = 11;  LRV = 0;  ERV = 0
BattleForce2:      MP: 5,  Armor/Structure: 0 / 0
                   Damage PB/M/L: -/-/-,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: FL;  Point Value: 1

(https://i.ibb.co/bmMx2s9/image.png) (https://ibb.co/vq6bQ3n)

I remember we need thrust-3 to reach orbit, so this-here laden swallow should be kosher. :brew:
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 06 August 2021, 15:22:24
Orbit?  With a Conventional Fighter??  ???
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: DOC_Agren on 06 August 2021, 16:10:36
Orbit?  With a Conventional Fighter??  ???
anything can go into orbit once!!!

and the 1 ton of fuel model is scary the model that I can see Quickcell selling as defensive aircraft to help protect places, with VTOL launch method. 
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 06 August 2021, 16:13:18
Oh certainly... it gets 4 RL-10s if you use Fractional Accounting.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Elmoth on 06 August 2021, 16:57:08
So go up. Approach the enemy while yrying not to be shot down. Shot a scary amount of rockets. Try to flee with your lousy speed and rearm.

Sounds like a (quickscell) plan.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Goose on 06 August 2021, 17:20:47
Orbit?  With a Conventional Fighter??  ???
:ugly_stupid: I post right good.

So: That is the FA build; Are you suggesting the second point on the nose be scrubbed off?
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: chanman on 06 August 2021, 17:32:17
So go up. Approach the enemy while yrying not to be shot down. Shot a scary amount of rockets. Try to flee with your lousy speed and rearm.

Sounds like a (quickscell) plan.

If you have to flee on the way back, you didn't bring enough rockets.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 06 August 2021, 17:35:07
:ugly_stupid: I post right good.

So: That is the FA build; Are you suggesting the second point on the nose be scrubbed off?
Yes... I only had 2 points on the nose of the F-5T because half a ton is the smallest tournament legal amount of armor.  Dropping the 5th point and using Fractional Accounting means you have two tons of payload (4 RL-10s), plus the external hard point.  The other quarter ton comes back from Controls/Avionics.  It would be the same as dropping a ton of fuel off of the F-5D.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: CVB on 06 August 2021, 22:45:46
I compare an F-5 more with an artillery grenade than a Savannah Master.
How much survivability do those 5 points actually provide? I mean, when an F-5 gets intercepted, it's toast most of the time anyway. Their protection comes from numbers, and the fact that they are out of the fight after one salvo, while there are probably other, more important targets still around. When an F-5 gets in range, simultaneous fire guarantees it gets off its single salvo, and then it's only a distraction (barring ramming attacks). 
So at least in tactical games maybe another RL10 that helps to eliminate a target faster actually saves some more of the F-5 swarm than a point or two of armor...
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 06 August 2021, 23:49:21
honestly, when you add in the money paid in both pilot salary and the annual payments to the widows of the pilots, i'm not sure that a group of 5 ton fighters is actually all that much cheaper than using a heavier one. especially since that heavier fighter has a much better chance of taking down the enemy with bombs and/or rockets.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 07 August 2021, 05:31:48
People are certainly the most expensive part of any system.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: chanman on 07 August 2021, 12:41:28
People are certainly the most expensive part of any system.

If they are, we need to revisit the 'life is cheap' part of the setting.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 07 August 2021, 12:58:04
I've always chalked that up to how hard it is to obtain advanced technology.  With Holy Shroud offing researchers left and right, Star League tech can seem out of reach at any price.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Atarlost on 07 August 2021, 14:38:08
I've always chalked that up to how hard it is to obtain advanced technology.  With Holy Shroud offing researchers left and right, Star League tech can seem out of reach at any price.

That doesn't apply here.  The F5 is competing with the Defender, which is the same tech level, faster, and cheaper per ton of bomb load. 

And if you pulled the Defender's missiles for rockets it would also be cheaper per internal rocket launcher. 

So I think I'll just take my business to Imstar, thank you very much. 
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 07 August 2021, 14:47:29
The Defender has "Difficult to Maintain" AND "Non-Standard Parts"... it's a maintenance nightmare!
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 07 August 2021, 15:30:42
that is only the Drake Medium Stealth Fighter variant.. the standard models are pretty much universal across the setting and are fluffed as using components easily produced on most worlds. meaning they would be the standard parts the drake does not use. (and it's non-standard parts would likely be for the vehicular stealth armor, which is very uncommon. that would also explain the difficult to maintain.. stealth armor is a maintenance hog and would have all sorts of special requirements)
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 07 August 2021, 15:49:17
Ah, missed that on my quick read through.  Still, it seems almost as fragile for significantly more capital investment.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: DOC_Agren on 07 August 2021, 18:13:58
the only really advantage I can see is from a "in character" POV if you want you could base the F5 in a Horse Trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAUPag2BW-4)
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Atarlost on 07 August 2021, 21:11:53
Ah, missed that on my quick read through.  Still, it seems almost as fragile for significantly more capital investment.

The Defender is less capital outlay for a given level of capability.  If you want the capacity to move 20 bombs you need 20 F-5s but only 4 Defenders.  The Defender is closer to twice the price of the F-5 than five times.  That's not counting the pilots.  Training five times as many pilots is very expensive in human capital, which also ultimately winds up coming out of the budget. 
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 08 August 2021, 03:00:28
The Defender is less capital outlay for a given level of capability.  If you want the capacity to move 20 bombs you need 20 F-5s but only 4 Defenders.  The Defender is closer to twice the price of the F-5 than five times.  That's not counting the pilots.  Training five times as many pilots is very expensive in human capital, which also ultimately winds up coming out of the budget.

especially since the odds are that the F5's will suffer much higher casualties on any given sortie, since the Defender has better speed, better armor, and weapons that are a lot longer ranged that can soften up the defenses on its way in with bombs or for extended duration ranged harrassment attacks.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 08 August 2021, 03:44:24
The cheapest F-5s run under 55K (and 22 BV slick), and can carry three bombs each (this would be using the 1-ton fuel tank Goose proposed combined with the Internal Bomb Bay quirk of the F-5E).  It could carry two of them internally at "full" 5/8 speed.

As others have said, these are the crop duster version of a strike aircraft.  Ammo bins are dead weight on those.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Goose on 08 August 2021, 15:32:08
A 5-ton bird has only one pylon.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 08 August 2021, 15:34:30
But two tons of internal cargo with the quirk give it the equivalent of two more.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: DOC_Agren on 08 August 2021, 21:33:39
and let remember this a Quickcell Fighter..  It not going to be all that great, and if I had to pilot it.. I'm not sure I would trust the ejection seat..  I might want to wear my own chute and hope I could bail out if needed.

Just think you get a 5 ton box with some assemble required, but any crop duster could fly it and i'm guessing you could get copter pilots to fly it in a pinch. 

but what you got is an aircraft.. that any shady tree mechanic can keep in the air..   and if someone intel says that you have 50 fighters..  they might think twice about coming
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 09 August 2021, 04:18:51
You nailed the quirks perfectly DOC!  :)
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: chanman on 09 August 2021, 11:01:02
and let remember this a Quickcell Fighter..  It not going to be all that great, and if I had to pilot it.. I'm not sure I would trust the ejection seat..  I might want to wear my own chute and hope I could bail out if needed.

Just think you get a 5 ton box with some assemble required, but any crop duster could fly it and i'm guessing you could get copter pilots to fly it in a pinch. 

but what you got is an aircraft.. that any shady tree mechanic can keep in the air..   and if someone intel says that you have 50 fighters..  they might think twice about coming

Instead of "It was five to one. I got four", it'll be more like "It was thirty to one. I got shot before I could finish swearing".

As for pilots - well, the individual survival rate in a duel with an ASF would be bad, but the survival rate of you and 29 friends against each ASF... probably pretty good. Probably a damn sight better than trying to stop a pirate raid with infantry and Scorpions (twice the price of a Boeing Jump Bomber) or Vedettes (4-5 times the price of a Boeing Jump Bomber).
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 09 August 2021, 11:24:43
Hmmm... if you strip out the VSTOL and flotation hull capabilities and all but a half ton of fuel from an F-5F, you can cram a third ton in that internal bomb bay, and keep the cost under 60K slick.  That's four hard points worth on a 5 ton frame for the speed penalty of only one.  That strikes me as something Quickcell would totally sell too.  I'd call it the F-5S (for Short Legs).

If you do it to an F-5E instead (and only keep a quarter ton of internal fuel), it's under 53K.  THAT one would be the F-5K (for Kamikaze).  Figure it's 5 hard points worth when you count the ramming attack...
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: CVB on 09 August 2021, 11:33:48
As for pilots - well, the individual survival rate in a duel with an ASF would be bad, but the survival rate of you and 29 friends against each ASF... probably pretty good.

Quote
Quantity has a quality all its own.
J.V.Dzhugashvili, Massive Force Application Expert
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: DOC_Agren on 12 August 2021, 23:07:54
Daryk
I found this and in my mind could fit the the F5 models
(https://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/343804/24916191/1400675917690/Awesome-Or-Ugly-5.21.14_Dyke-Delta-Drawings.jpg?token=nkX10Kfy3JDmxXpJ2GFWICCfuCA%3D)
It is a Dyke Delta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyke_Delta), and like your Quickcell F5.  "Since the mid-1960s, designer John Dyke has sold the aircraft plans to homebuilders. No kits were ever marketed. Over fifty examples have been completed."
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 13 August 2021, 04:49:48
Nice find DOC!  :thumbsup:

Honestly though, I was looking at the actual F-5's stats when building this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_F-5
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Elmoth on 13 August 2021, 08:57:43
Hmm... The real f5 sounds a little bit too high performance for a duster aurcraft? Of course 3025 duster aircraft might make the F35 blush in shame...
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 13 August 2021, 11:00:45
That's exactly my point, really... even dirt cheap/dead simple 3025 tech puts the modern day to shame...  ^-^
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: DOC_Agren on 13 August 2021, 11:21:47
Nice find DOC!  :thumbsup:

Honestly though, I was looking at the actual F-5's stats when building this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_F-5
a nice plane, and in 3025 just the sort of machine Quickcell would produce...  I just thought the Delta was "interesting" it was sold as plans not a kit like Quickcell would.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Elmoth on 13 August 2021, 11:27:45
Do we have any real world "IKEA" planes in the duster category? Planes that require assembly on delivery even if they come with all the pieces. Come with an Allen key included.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: DOC_Agren on 13 August 2021, 12:24:22
Do we have any real world "IKEA" planes in the duster category? Planes that require assembly on delivery even if they come with all the pieces. Come with an Allen key included.
There are a # of Kit aircraft available.
Scamp B (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerosport_Scamp) is an agricultural crop spraying version of the Scamp, modified from kits assembled in Columbia
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: chanman on 13 August 2021, 12:26:35
Hmm... The real f5 sounds a little bit too high performance for a duster aurcraft? Of course 3025 duster aircraft might make the F35 blush in shame...

It's a quirk of Battletech's construction rules. VTOLs are slower than they should be (support vehicle VTOLs are WAYYYY slower than they should be) while aerospace vehicles have way more acceleration (and way less fuel) than they should.

Only the highest performance 4th and 5th gen fighters flying clean with a reduced fuel load can boast thrust-to-weight ratios of greater than 1 when in afterburner.

In Battletech, that's literally the lowest thrust an aero unit can have (1/2)

Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Dapper Apples on 14 August 2021, 14:28:51
If I pay extra for the seaplane addon, I get to save some money on airfields, right?  :D
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: chanman on 14 August 2021, 16:10:05
If I pay extra for the seaplane addon, I get to save some money on airfields, right?  :D

I'm sure the VTOL models just use literal fields for airfields. So the question is... what's more expensive on your dirtball of a world? Empty dirt? Or empty coast/lakes?  :D
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 14 August 2021, 17:48:10
Exactly... you're not really paying for airfields to begin with...  ;)
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: CVB on 14 August 2021, 18:10:59
Depends. When I have to operate in a jungle area like the Amazonas basin, I would rather have my planes set down on one of the many river branches than chop down enough trees for suitable (and easily detectable) clearings. My ammo and other consumables would probably have to be delivered by boat anyway...
After all, single-environment planets are a time-honored SF cliché   ;D
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: chanman on 14 August 2021, 18:44:24
Depends. When I have to operate in a jungle area like the Amazonas basin, I would rather have my planes set down on one of the many river branches than chop down enough trees for suitable (and easily detectable) clearings. My ammo and other consumables would probably have to be delivered by boat anyway...
After all, single-environment planets are a time-honored SF cliché   ;D

Orrrrrr you can just operate off of barges!  :D
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: CVB on 14 August 2021, 19:03:09
Exactly. Any fishing boat with a lift hoist and a modest cargo hold can be a jeep carrier.

"Honest, Mr. Jade Falcon Occupation Government Inspector, we only use that plane to search for shoals of fishes! Those rocket packs? ...Aaaaaaahhh, purely for self-defence, I swear! Nasty creature it is, the Erewhonese Pseudo-Herring, you know?"
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 14 August 2021, 19:39:19
LOL!  Even more reason for the F-5E with no integral weapons...  >:D

That internal cargo bay?  It's for sonobuoys, sir!  ^-^
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: CVB on 14 August 2021, 19:44:27
LOL!  Even more reason for the F-5E with no integral weapons...  >:D

That internal cargo bay?  It's for sonobuoys, sir!  ^-^

Eyes inspector... "Although sometimes we also use it to drop live bait..."
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 14 August 2021, 19:48:57
Even better!  :D
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: DevianID on 19 August 2021, 00:25:06
Quickcell makes APCs on the lowest end, but after that it's scorpions, hetzers, all the 60 ton carriers, and some manticores as (i guess) knockoff Lamborghinis of the tank world.

I think the quickcell fighter would have either a 100, 140, or 180 engine to match the 3 flagship tanks they make, as a 5 ton fighter is more what the savannah master company would make.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: chanman on 19 August 2021, 01:45:24
Exactly. Any fishing boat with a lift hoist and a modest cargo hold can be a jeep carrier.

"Honest, Mr. Jade Falcon Occupation Government Inspector, we only use that plane to search for shoals of fishes! Those rocket packs? ...Aaaaaaahhh, purely for self-defence, I swear! Nasty creature it is, the Erewhonese Pseudo-Herring, you know?"

If Mr. Jade Falcon Occupation Government Inspector survived to make planetfall and make any noises other than panicked screaming and big explosions, you may be misusing your assets...
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 19 August 2021, 01:59:53
Quickcell makes APCs on the lowest end, but after that it's scorpions, hetzers, all the 60 ton carriers, and some manticores as (i guess) knockoff Lamborghinis of the tank world.

I think the quickcell fighter would have either a 100, 140, or 180 engine to match the 3 flagship tanks they make, as a 5 ton fighter is more what the savannah master company would make.
Vehicle and aircraft engines are very different things, though.

I LOVE your characterization of Quickcell Manticores as "knockoff Lamborghinis"!  :D
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 26 August 2021, 15:23:33
I just watched a YouTube video about the granddaddy of my F-5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq-ob6PRvdY

Fitting 3 tons of payload on a 5 ton aircraft in the 1940s(!) is quite the feat!  Thing had 15 (admittedly not "1-ton") hard points!  :o
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: glitterboy2098 on 26 August 2021, 15:54:55
Vehicle and aircraft engines are very different things, though.
fusion engines are explicitly the same though (presumably with just different attachments).
and ICE engines aren't necessarily different either, given that you can mount jet turbine engines on ground vehicles [example 1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeywell_AGT1500), [example 2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cars_powered_by_gas_turbines), [etc] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_turbine#In_surface_vehicles)
heck the first use of turbine engines was in wet navy warships. it was the experience in building and using those that allowed the development of aviation turbine engines.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 26 August 2021, 16:02:07
For the wet navy at least, you need to factor in the reduction gears.  Those things are HEAVY.  Ground vehicles either need a similar gear box, or electric motors that use the power generated by the turbine.  Hence the extra 100% weight for ICE and extra 50% for fusion engines (one way or another).

In terms of the rules one of those engines has to track fuel, and the other doesn't (being assumed to have 10% of its weight dedicated to fuel that gives a LONG range).  That's the basis of my saying they're different.
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Elmoth on 26 August 2021, 16:24:19
First designation of the Douglas: BT 2D. Or as I read it "Battletech 2 Daryk".

I rest my case.

Xavi
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: Daryk on 26 August 2021, 16:33:26
LOL! I hadn't even thought of that.. hilarious!  :D
Title: Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
Post by: DOC_Agren on 26 August 2021, 23:50:07
I just watched a YouTube video about the granddaddy of my F-5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq-ob6PRvdY

Fitting 3 tons of payload on a 5 ton aircraft in the 1940s(!) is quite the feat!  Thing had 15 (admittedly not "1-ton") hard points!  :o
the Sandy Dumptruck..