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Author Topic: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...  (Read 4735 times)

DOC_Agren

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #30 on: 05 August 2021, 18:11:43 »
?? what about using commercial grade armor?
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

glitterboy2098

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #31 on: 05 August 2021, 18:50:56 »
?? what about using commercial grade armor?
not an option for fighters.

Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #32 on: 05 August 2021, 19:52:37 »
When you're only throwing a quarter ton into armor at all, you're not really saving enough weight to matter.

DOC_Agren

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #33 on: 05 August 2021, 22:31:54 »
I will say any "pilot" could be used to fly these..  Just they all pray they never see a real fighter, conventional or heaven help them an Aerospace Fighter

They remind me of the Me-163 Komet

with your 5 ton model, what about dropping to 1 ton of fuel for more rockets onboard?

and I know I'm tired and my normal gaming computer is acting up but what is "Combat Vehicle Chassis Mod"

"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

CVB

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #34 on: 06 August 2021, 01:08:25 »
and I know I'm tired and my normal gaming computer is acting up but what is "Combat Vehicle Chassis Mod"

Options from TO like environmental sealing, limited and full amphibious capability, and flotation hull. Mostly for Combat vehicles (hence the name), but Flotation Hull can also be applied to conventional fighters (Think Martin P6M SeaMaster or Convair F2Y Sea Dart).
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

Goose

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #35 on: 06 August 2021, 01:15:01 »
Goose
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Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #36 on: 06 August 2021, 04:11:47 »
That one's more along the lines of glitteboy's 20-ton design.  It also costs roughly three to five times more than an F-5.

DOC_Agren

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #37 on: 06 August 2021, 12:20:14 »
Options from TO like environmental sealing, limited and full amphibious capability, and flotation hull. Mostly for Combat vehicles (hence the name), but Flotation Hull can also be applied to conventional fighters (Think Martin P6M SeaMaster or Convair F2Y Sea Dart).
thank you
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

Goose

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #38 on: 06 August 2021, 14:48:20 »
 :-\ Alright:

Code: [Select]
                    AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
                                  VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name:  Tom Bruck
Tech:              Inner Sphere / 3067
Vessel Type:       Conventional Fighter
Rules:             Level 3, Standard design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              5 tons
Length:            7 meters
Power Plant:       25 Turbine
Safe Thrust:       5
Maximum Thrust:    8
Armor Type:        Standard
Armament:         
    3 RL 10 (OS)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Tom Bruck
Mass:              5 tons
Construction Options:  Fractional Accounting

Equipment:                                                              Mass
Power Plant:  25 Turbine                                                 1.00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 5  (4 at max bomb load)
      Maximum Thrust: 8  (6 at max bomb load)
Structural Integrity: 5                                                   .00
VSTOL Equipment:                                                          .50
Total Heat Sinks:    0 Single                                             .00
Fuel:                                                                    1.00
Cockpit, Avionics & Attitude Thrusters:                                   .50
Armor Type:  Standard  (5 total armor pts)                                .31
                           Standard Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Nose:                                  2
   Left/Right Wings:                   1/1
   Aft:                                   1

Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 RL 10 (OS)               Nose         6      6     --     --    0      1.50
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                                     Heat: 0      4.81
Tons Left:                                                                .19

External Stores Load:
   1 Fuel                           (1 tons)
   Total Stores Load               1 tons total
   Note: Safe Thrust is reduced from 5 to 4 at max bomb load.

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        103,432 C-Bills
Battle Value:      105
Cost per BV:       985.06
Weapon Value:      157 (Ratio = 1.50)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 15;  MRV = 11;  LRV = 0;  ERV = 0
BattleForce2:      MP: 5,  Armor/Structure: 0 / 0
                   Damage PB/M/L: -/-/-,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: FL;  Point Value: 1



I remember we need thrust-3 to reach orbit, so this-here laden swallow should be kosher. :brew:
Goose
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Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #39 on: 06 August 2021, 15:22:24 »
Orbit?  With a Conventional Fighter??  ???

DOC_Agren

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #40 on: 06 August 2021, 16:10:36 »
Orbit?  With a Conventional Fighter??  ???
anything can go into orbit once!!!

and the 1 ton of fuel model is scary the model that I can see Quickcell selling as defensive aircraft to help protect places, with VTOL launch method. 
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #41 on: 06 August 2021, 16:13:18 »
Oh certainly... it gets 4 RL-10s if you use Fractional Accounting.

Elmoth

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #42 on: 06 August 2021, 16:57:08 »
So go up. Approach the enemy while yrying not to be shot down. Shot a scary amount of rockets. Try to flee with your lousy speed and rearm.

Sounds like a (quickscell) plan.

Goose

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #43 on: 06 August 2021, 17:20:47 »
Orbit?  With a Conventional Fighter??  ???
:ugly_stupid: I post right good.

So: That is the FA build; Are you suggesting the second point on the nose be scrubbed off?
Goose
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chanman

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #44 on: 06 August 2021, 17:32:17 »
So go up. Approach the enemy while yrying not to be shot down. Shot a scary amount of rockets. Try to flee with your lousy speed and rearm.

Sounds like a (quickscell) plan.

If you have to flee on the way back, you didn't bring enough rockets.

Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #45 on: 06 August 2021, 17:35:07 »
:ugly_stupid: I post right good.

So: That is the FA build; Are you suggesting the second point on the nose be scrubbed off?
Yes... I only had 2 points on the nose of the F-5T because half a ton is the smallest tournament legal amount of armor.  Dropping the 5th point and using Fractional Accounting means you have two tons of payload (4 RL-10s), plus the external hard point.  The other quarter ton comes back from Controls/Avionics.  It would be the same as dropping a ton of fuel off of the F-5D.

CVB

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #46 on: 06 August 2021, 22:45:46 »
I compare an F-5 more with an artillery grenade than a Savannah Master.
How much survivability do those 5 points actually provide? I mean, when an F-5 gets intercepted, it's toast most of the time anyway. Their protection comes from numbers, and the fact that they are out of the fight after one salvo, while there are probably other, more important targets still around. When an F-5 gets in range, simultaneous fire guarantees it gets off its single salvo, and then it's only a distraction (barring ramming attacks). 
So at least in tactical games maybe another RL10 that helps to eliminate a target faster actually saves some more of the F-5 swarm than a point or two of armor...
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

glitterboy2098

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #47 on: 06 August 2021, 23:49:21 »
honestly, when you add in the money paid in both pilot salary and the annual payments to the widows of the pilots, i'm not sure that a group of 5 ton fighters is actually all that much cheaper than using a heavier one. especially since that heavier fighter has a much better chance of taking down the enemy with bombs and/or rockets.

Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #48 on: 07 August 2021, 05:31:48 »
People are certainly the most expensive part of any system.

chanman

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #49 on: 07 August 2021, 12:41:28 »
People are certainly the most expensive part of any system.

If they are, we need to revisit the 'life is cheap' part of the setting.

Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #50 on: 07 August 2021, 12:58:04 »
I've always chalked that up to how hard it is to obtain advanced technology.  With Holy Shroud offing researchers left and right, Star League tech can seem out of reach at any price.

Atarlost

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #51 on: 07 August 2021, 14:38:08 »
I've always chalked that up to how hard it is to obtain advanced technology.  With Holy Shroud offing researchers left and right, Star League tech can seem out of reach at any price.

That doesn't apply here.  The F5 is competing with the Defender, which is the same tech level, faster, and cheaper per ton of bomb load. 

And if you pulled the Defender's missiles for rockets it would also be cheaper per internal rocket launcher. 

So I think I'll just take my business to Imstar, thank you very much. 

Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #52 on: 07 August 2021, 14:47:29 »
The Defender has "Difficult to Maintain" AND "Non-Standard Parts"... it's a maintenance nightmare!

glitterboy2098

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #53 on: 07 August 2021, 15:30:42 »
that is only the Drake Medium Stealth Fighter variant.. the standard models are pretty much universal across the setting and are fluffed as using components easily produced on most worlds. meaning they would be the standard parts the drake does not use. (and it's non-standard parts would likely be for the vehicular stealth armor, which is very uncommon. that would also explain the difficult to maintain.. stealth armor is a maintenance hog and would have all sorts of special requirements)

Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #54 on: 07 August 2021, 15:49:17 »
Ah, missed that on my quick read through.  Still, it seems almost as fragile for significantly more capital investment.

DOC_Agren

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #55 on: 07 August 2021, 18:13:58 »
the only really advantage I can see is from a "in character" POV if you want you could base the F5 in a Horse Trailer
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

Atarlost

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #56 on: 07 August 2021, 21:11:53 »
Ah, missed that on my quick read through.  Still, it seems almost as fragile for significantly more capital investment.

The Defender is less capital outlay for a given level of capability.  If you want the capacity to move 20 bombs you need 20 F-5s but only 4 Defenders.  The Defender is closer to twice the price of the F-5 than five times.  That's not counting the pilots.  Training five times as many pilots is very expensive in human capital, which also ultimately winds up coming out of the budget. 

glitterboy2098

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #57 on: 08 August 2021, 03:00:28 »
The Defender is less capital outlay for a given level of capability.  If you want the capacity to move 20 bombs you need 20 F-5s but only 4 Defenders.  The Defender is closer to twice the price of the F-5 than five times.  That's not counting the pilots.  Training five times as many pilots is very expensive in human capital, which also ultimately winds up coming out of the budget.

especially since the odds are that the F5's will suffer much higher casualties on any given sortie, since the Defender has better speed, better armor, and weapons that are a lot longer ranged that can soften up the defenses on its way in with bombs or for extended duration ranged harrassment attacks.

Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #58 on: 08 August 2021, 03:44:24 »
The cheapest F-5s run under 55K (and 22 BV slick), and can carry three bombs each (this would be using the 1-ton fuel tank Goose proposed combined with the Internal Bomb Bay quirk of the F-5E).  It could carry two of them internally at "full" 5/8 speed.

As others have said, these are the crop duster version of a strike aircraft.  Ammo bins are dead weight on those.

Goose

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #59 on: 08 August 2021, 15:32:08 »
A 5-ton bird has only one pylon.
Goose
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