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Author Topic: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...  (Read 4175 times)

Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #60 on: 08 August 2021, 15:34:30 »
But two tons of internal cargo with the quirk give it the equivalent of two more.

DOC_Agren

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #61 on: 08 August 2021, 21:33:39 »
and let remember this a Quickcell Fighter..  It not going to be all that great, and if I had to pilot it.. I'm not sure I would trust the ejection seat..  I might want to wear my own chute and hope I could bail out if needed.

Just think you get a 5 ton box with some assemble required, but any crop duster could fly it and i'm guessing you could get copter pilots to fly it in a pinch. 

but what you got is an aircraft.. that any shady tree mechanic can keep in the air..   and if someone intel says that you have 50 fighters..  they might think twice about coming
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #62 on: 09 August 2021, 04:18:51 »
You nailed the quirks perfectly DOC!  :)

chanman

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #63 on: 09 August 2021, 11:01:02 »
and let remember this a Quickcell Fighter..  It not going to be all that great, and if I had to pilot it.. I'm not sure I would trust the ejection seat..  I might want to wear my own chute and hope I could bail out if needed.

Just think you get a 5 ton box with some assemble required, but any crop duster could fly it and i'm guessing you could get copter pilots to fly it in a pinch. 

but what you got is an aircraft.. that any shady tree mechanic can keep in the air..   and if someone intel says that you have 50 fighters..  they might think twice about coming

Instead of "It was five to one. I got four", it'll be more like "It was thirty to one. I got shot before I could finish swearing".

As for pilots - well, the individual survival rate in a duel with an ASF would be bad, but the survival rate of you and 29 friends against each ASF... probably pretty good. Probably a damn sight better than trying to stop a pirate raid with infantry and Scorpions (twice the price of a Boeing Jump Bomber) or Vedettes (4-5 times the price of a Boeing Jump Bomber).

Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #64 on: 09 August 2021, 11:24:43 »
Hmmm... if you strip out the VSTOL and flotation hull capabilities and all but a half ton of fuel from an F-5F, you can cram a third ton in that internal bomb bay, and keep the cost under 60K slick.  That's four hard points worth on a 5 ton frame for the speed penalty of only one.  That strikes me as something Quickcell would totally sell too.  I'd call it the F-5S (for Short Legs).

If you do it to an F-5E instead (and only keep a quarter ton of internal fuel), it's under 53K.  THAT one would be the F-5K (for Kamikaze).  Figure it's 5 hard points worth when you count the ramming attack...

CVB

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #65 on: 09 August 2021, 11:33:48 »
As for pilots - well, the individual survival rate in a duel with an ASF would be bad, but the survival rate of you and 29 friends against each ASF... probably pretty good.

Quote
Quantity has a quality all its own.
J.V.Dzhugashvili, Massive Force Application Expert
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

DOC_Agren

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #66 on: 12 August 2021, 23:07:54 »
Daryk
I found this and in my mind could fit the the F5 models

It is a Dyke Delta, and like your Quickcell F5.  "Since the mid-1960s, designer John Dyke has sold the aircraft plans to homebuilders. No kits were ever marketed. Over fifty examples have been completed."
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #67 on: 13 August 2021, 04:49:48 »
Nice find DOC!  :thumbsup:

Honestly though, I was looking at the actual F-5's stats when building this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_F-5

Elmoth

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #68 on: 13 August 2021, 08:57:43 »
Hmm... The real f5 sounds a little bit too high performance for a duster aurcraft? Of course 3025 duster aircraft might make the F35 blush in shame...

Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #69 on: 13 August 2021, 11:00:45 »
That's exactly my point, really... even dirt cheap/dead simple 3025 tech puts the modern day to shame...  ^-^

DOC_Agren

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #70 on: 13 August 2021, 11:21:47 »
Nice find DOC!  :thumbsup:

Honestly though, I was looking at the actual F-5's stats when building this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_F-5
a nice plane, and in 3025 just the sort of machine Quickcell would produce...  I just thought the Delta was "interesting" it was sold as plans not a kit like Quickcell would.
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

Elmoth

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #71 on: 13 August 2021, 11:27:45 »
Do we have any real world "IKEA" planes in the duster category? Planes that require assembly on delivery even if they come with all the pieces. Come with an Allen key included.

DOC_Agren

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #72 on: 13 August 2021, 12:24:22 »
Do we have any real world "IKEA" planes in the duster category? Planes that require assembly on delivery even if they come with all the pieces. Come with an Allen key included.
There are a # of Kit aircraft available.
Scamp B is an agricultural crop spraying version of the Scamp, modified from kits assembled in Columbia
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

chanman

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #73 on: 13 August 2021, 12:26:35 »
Hmm... The real f5 sounds a little bit too high performance for a duster aurcraft? Of course 3025 duster aircraft might make the F35 blush in shame...

It's a quirk of Battletech's construction rules. VTOLs are slower than they should be (support vehicle VTOLs are WAYYYY slower than they should be) while aerospace vehicles have way more acceleration (and way less fuel) than they should.

Only the highest performance 4th and 5th gen fighters flying clean with a reduced fuel load can boast thrust-to-weight ratios of greater than 1 when in afterburner.

In Battletech, that's literally the lowest thrust an aero unit can have (1/2)


Dapper Apples

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #74 on: 14 August 2021, 14:28:51 »
If I pay extra for the seaplane addon, I get to save some money on airfields, right?  :D

chanman

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #75 on: 14 August 2021, 16:10:05 »
If I pay extra for the seaplane addon, I get to save some money on airfields, right?  :D

I'm sure the VTOL models just use literal fields for airfields. So the question is... what's more expensive on your dirtball of a world? Empty dirt? Or empty coast/lakes?  :D

Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #76 on: 14 August 2021, 17:48:10 »
Exactly... you're not really paying for airfields to begin with...  ;)

CVB

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #77 on: 14 August 2021, 18:10:59 »
Depends. When I have to operate in a jungle area like the Amazonas basin, I would rather have my planes set down on one of the many river branches than chop down enough trees for suitable (and easily detectable) clearings. My ammo and other consumables would probably have to be delivered by boat anyway...
After all, single-environment planets are a time-honored SF cliché   ;D
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

chanman

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #78 on: 14 August 2021, 18:44:24 »
Depends. When I have to operate in a jungle area like the Amazonas basin, I would rather have my planes set down on one of the many river branches than chop down enough trees for suitable (and easily detectable) clearings. My ammo and other consumables would probably have to be delivered by boat anyway...
After all, single-environment planets are a time-honored SF cliché   ;D

Orrrrrr you can just operate off of barges!  :D

CVB

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #79 on: 14 August 2021, 19:03:09 »
Exactly. Any fishing boat with a lift hoist and a modest cargo hold can be a jeep carrier.

"Honest, Mr. Jade Falcon Occupation Government Inspector, we only use that plane to search for shoals of fishes! Those rocket packs? ...Aaaaaaahhh, purely for self-defence, I swear! Nasty creature it is, the Erewhonese Pseudo-Herring, you know?"
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #80 on: 14 August 2021, 19:39:19 »
LOL!  Even more reason for the F-5E with no integral weapons...  >:D

That internal cargo bay?  It's for sonobuoys, sir!  ^-^

CVB

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #81 on: 14 August 2021, 19:44:27 »
LOL!  Even more reason for the F-5E with no integral weapons...  >:D

That internal cargo bay?  It's for sonobuoys, sir!  ^-^

Eyes inspector... "Although sometimes we also use it to drop live bait..."
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #82 on: 14 August 2021, 19:48:57 »
Even better!  :D

DevianID

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #83 on: 19 August 2021, 00:25:06 »
Quickcell makes APCs on the lowest end, but after that it's scorpions, hetzers, all the 60 ton carriers, and some manticores as (i guess) knockoff Lamborghinis of the tank world.

I think the quickcell fighter would have either a 100, 140, or 180 engine to match the 3 flagship tanks they make, as a 5 ton fighter is more what the savannah master company would make.

chanman

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #84 on: 19 August 2021, 01:45:24 »
Exactly. Any fishing boat with a lift hoist and a modest cargo hold can be a jeep carrier.

"Honest, Mr. Jade Falcon Occupation Government Inspector, we only use that plane to search for shoals of fishes! Those rocket packs? ...Aaaaaaahhh, purely for self-defence, I swear! Nasty creature it is, the Erewhonese Pseudo-Herring, you know?"

If Mr. Jade Falcon Occupation Government Inspector survived to make planetfall and make any noises other than panicked screaming and big explosions, you may be misusing your assets...

Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #85 on: 19 August 2021, 01:59:53 »
Quickcell makes APCs on the lowest end, but after that it's scorpions, hetzers, all the 60 ton carriers, and some manticores as (i guess) knockoff Lamborghinis of the tank world.

I think the quickcell fighter would have either a 100, 140, or 180 engine to match the 3 flagship tanks they make, as a 5 ton fighter is more what the savannah master company would make.
Vehicle and aircraft engines are very different things, though.

I LOVE your characterization of Quickcell Manticores as "knockoff Lamborghinis"!  :D

Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #86 on: 26 August 2021, 15:23:33 »
I just watched a YouTube video about the granddaddy of my F-5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq-ob6PRvdY

Fitting 3 tons of payload on a 5 ton aircraft in the 1940s(!) is quite the feat!  Thing had 15 (admittedly not "1-ton") hard points!  :o

glitterboy2098

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #87 on: 26 August 2021, 15:54:55 »
Vehicle and aircraft engines are very different things, though.
fusion engines are explicitly the same though (presumably with just different attachments).
and ICE engines aren't necessarily different either, given that you can mount jet turbine engines on ground vehicles [example 1], [example 2], [etc]
heck the first use of turbine engines was in wet navy warships. it was the experience in building and using those that allowed the development of aviation turbine engines.
« Last Edit: 26 August 2021, 15:57:02 by glitterboy2098 »

Daryk

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #88 on: 26 August 2021, 16:02:07 »
For the wet navy at least, you need to factor in the reduction gears.  Those things are HEAVY.  Ground vehicles either need a similar gear box, or electric motors that use the power generated by the turbine.  Hence the extra 100% weight for ICE and extra 50% for fusion engines (one way or another).

In terms of the rules one of those engines has to track fuel, and the other doesn't (being assumed to have 10% of its weight dedicated to fuel that gives a LONG range).  That's the basis of my saying they're different.

Elmoth

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Re: Quickcell enters the Conventional Fighter market...
« Reply #89 on: 26 August 2021, 16:24:19 »
First designation of the Douglas: BT 2D. Or as I read it "Battletech 2 Daryk".

I rest my case.

Xavi