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Author Topic: Request for proposal: Federated Suns Battleship (General War AU)  (Read 1164 times)

Liam's Ghost

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Background: The Star League was never formed. The 2570s saw the outbreak of the Malagrotta War between the Taurian Concordat and Federated Suns, resulting in the destruction of a third of the Federated Suns fleet at the hands of the Taurian Navy in the opening battles (alternate universe Case Amber). Without adequate naval support, the AFFS is unable to bring its vastly superior ground forces to bear, or protect its own  supply lines or trade lanes.

The war ends in a humiliating peace treaty which sees Malagrotta ceded to the Taurian Concordat and every Fed Suns world within 30 light years of the Taurian border mostly demilitarized. The Federated Suns had no choice, the Taurian navy was massive in comparison to theirs and way more competent than the Davions had expected, and the war had to end before the Capellans and the Combine got any ideas.

However, Prince Alexander Davion has declared "Never Again" and has opened the floodgates to naval funding, with a target of a four hundred ship navy.

In addition to building new Davion IIs, Syrtis's, Robinsons, and ordering an upgunned, up armored version of the Congress-D, Prince Alexander has commissioned his yards to build a centerpiece for the fleet, a battleship to put them on par with the Terran Hegemony or Free World League.

So that's where you come in.

The parameters are for a battleship in the 1 million to 1.5 million ton range, which will operate at the main battle line for the fleet. You can use anything available as of 2580 in the design, with the exception of a lithium fusion battery or naval comm scanner (we're treating these as exclusively hegemony technology and they aren't sharing). So Ferro Carbide armor, double heat sinks, and whatever else applies are fair game.

In terms of capabilities, Prince Alexander wants something reasonably capable of handling a Monsoon or Atreus class Battleship in a one on one engagement, as well as serve as the centerpiece of a task force, support ground troops, or function in a battle line of others of its class. Despite this "do all the things" philosophy, the fighter group is not to exceed sixty fighters, since carrier operations are supposed to be handled by the actual carriers.

Anyway, have fun with it.
« Last Edit: 21 May 2022, 21:51:00 by Liam's Ghost »
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

Daryk

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Interesting AU idea!  I hope we see more of it!  :thumbsup:

Liam's Ghost

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I already have some rough notes for how every state might initially react to the aftermath of the Malagrotta war.

Basically, naval arms race. A MASSIVE naval arms race.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

Daryk

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EXCELLENT!  8)

FastConcentrate8

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I already have some rough notes for how every state might initially react to the aftermath of the Malagrotta war.

Basically, naval arms race. A MASSIVE naval arms race.
WarShips for the WarShip gods.

Jump Cores for the Jump Core throne.

Alsadius

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Universal Air of Delavan had lobbied the Federated Suns leadership aggressively for decades to encourage a more aggressive naval construction tempo, but fortunately they had enough tact not to crow too openly about their new contracts after the disaster of the Malagrotta War. Instead, they began expanding their shipyards immediately "to help ensure the continuing military strength of the Federated Suns", and putting together designs for larger and more capable ships.

While the nominal capacity of their largest ship-building dock had been expanded to 1.4 million tons, the initial designs were seen as somewhat "gold-plated" (not least because of the proposal for a literal gold-leaf coating on the outside of the armor, which was theorized to help reduce the induced electrical damage from particle cannons). After substantial back-and-forth, which ended with intervention from Alexander Davion himself, a slightly trimmed down 1.25 million ton design was finalized. Known as the Federation class, it was an extremely austere and combat-focused ship. Many of the "soft" features of the hull had been reduced significantly, from fuel capacity to grav decks to improved officer quarters, but the core combat capacity remained.

The capital-scale weaponry of the Federation was thirty-six naval autocannons, thirty-six naval particle cannons, and twenty-four dual purpose naval lasers. A small array of anti-missile systems and fighter-scale weaponry were also scattered around the hull. The ship would never set any acceleration records, only barely able to exceed 2g even at full combat power, but it was built to the highest standards of military toughness, and was estimated to require over twice as much firepower to kill as a Monsoon or Atreus. Its weaponry was also estimated to be roughly 50-65% superior overall. However, the relative dearth of supporting craft (only twelve fighters and two DropShips) was a known weakness should the Federation ever find itself away from friendly fighter cover. Nevertheless, for its intended purpose, the Federation was deemed to be eminently suitable, and construction began quickly.

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Federation-class Battleship
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $12,329,586,800.00
Magazine Cost: $43,200,000.00
BV2: 211,396

Mass: 1,250,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Armor Type: Ferro-Carbide
Armament:
36 Naval PPC Heavy
36 Naval AC 20
24 Naval Laser 55
32 AMS (IS)
32 PPC ER (IS)

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 225,000.00
Thrust
Safe: 3
Maximum: 5
Controls: 3,125.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (25 Integrity) 565,625.00
Jump Sail: (6 Integrity) 93.00
Structural Integrity: 150 187,500.00
Total Heat Sinks: 5715(11430) Double 5,000.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 4250 points 1,734.00
Fire Control Computers: 0.00
Armor: 3090 pts Ferro-Carbide 3,750.00
Fore: 500
Fore-Left/Right: 540/540
Aft-Left/Right: 540/540
Aft: 430

Dropship Capacity: 2 2,000.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 0.00
Medium: 1 100.00
Large: 0.00
Escape Pods: 42 294.00
Life Boats: 40 280.00

Crew And Passengers:
67 Officers in 2nd Class Quarters 469.00
228 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 1,596.00
102 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 714.00
34 Bay Personnel 0.00
1st Class Passengers 0.00
2nd Class Passengers 0.00
Steerage Passengers 0.00

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
6 Naval PPC Heavy Nose 1350 900 (90-C) Extreme-C 18,000.00
6 Naval PPC Heavy Aft 1350 900 (90-C) Extreme-C 18,000.00
6 Naval PPC Heavy FL 1350 900 (90-C) Extreme-C 18,000.00
6 Naval PPC Heavy FR 1350 900 (90-C) Extreme-C 18,000.00
6 Naval PPC Heavy AL 1350 900 (90-C) Extreme-C 18,000.00
6 Naval PPC Heavy AR 1350 900 (90-C) Extreme-C 18,000.00
6 Naval AC 20 FL 360 1200 (120-C) Long-C 15,000.00
6 Naval AC 20 FR 360 1200 (120-C) Long-C 15,000.00
6 Naval AC 20 AL 360 1200 (120-C) Long-C 15,000.00
6 Naval AC 20 AR 360 1200 (120-C) Long-C 15,000.00
6 Naval AC 20 LBS 360 1200 (120-C) Long-C 15,000.00
6 Naval AC 20 RBS 360 1200 (120-C) Long-C 15,000.00
6 Naval Laser 55 Nose 510 330 (33-C) Extreme-C 6,600.00
6 Naval Laser 55 LBS 510 330 (33-C) Extreme-C 6,600.00
6 Naval Laser 55 RBS 510 330 (33-C) Extreme-C 6,600.00
6 Naval Laser 55 Aft 510 330 (33-C) Extreme-C 6,600.00
4 AMS (IS) Nose 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2.00
4 AMS (IS) LBS 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2.00
4 AMS (IS) RBS 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2.00
4 AMS (IS) Aft 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2.00
4 AMS (IS) FL 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2.00
4 AMS (IS) FR 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2.00
4 AMS (IS) AL 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2.00
4 AMS (IS) AR 4 12 (1.2-C) PDS 2.00
4 PPC ER (IS) Nose 60 40 (4-C) Long 28.00
4 PPC ER (IS) LBS 60 40 (4-C) Long 28.00
4 PPC ER (IS) RBS 60 40 (4-C) Long 28.00
4 PPC ER (IS) Aft 60 40 (4-C) Long 28.00
4 PPC ER (IS) FL 60 40 (4-C) Long 28.00
4 PPC ER (IS) FR 60 40 (4-C) Long 28.00
4 PPC ER (IS) AL 60 40 (4-C) Long 28.00
4 PPC ER (IS) AR 60 40 (4-C) Long 28.00

Ammo Rounds Mass
Naval AC 20 Ammo 1800 720.00
AMS (IS) Ammo 1920 160.00

Equipment Mass
Bay Fighter 12 1,800.00
Bay Small Craft 2 400.00
Cargo, Standard 25000 25,000.00
« Last Edit: 21 May 2022, 09:55:21 by Alsadius »

Atarlost

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The Uther Pendragon class is the Embracing Scope Creep design option. 

Crew is 33% over minimum and cargo is a bit over 10% of total mass.  The four 56 meter grav decks should be small enough to fit inside the armor and provide 1g at 4 rpm or 0.5 g at 2 rpm.  The air wing exclusive of small craft is smaller than the Atreus but larger than the Monsoon.  Dropship capacity is also intermediate between the two designs.  12500 fuel points give a cruising endurance of 4 months at 1g and is, again, intermediate between the Atreus and Monsoon.  Anti-missile defense is, yet again, intermediate between the two designs.  Anti-fighter defense is much heavier than either until the LRMs run out and still pretty close to the Atreus on just energy weapons.  There's also a substantial marine complement, a generous small craft allotment so if you have something like this in your setting it can thicken up its anti-missile defense.  and it's also good for boarding.  Where it really beats them is armor. 

Unless I screwed up the math, it can fire all anti-fighter and anti-missile weapons, all capital missile launchers, and the hottest overlapping non-missile capital arc set.

It has basically two modes of operation: hang back and pepper them with extreme range naval laser fire from the rear or broadside lasers, or charge in like a Davion but instead of ramming it shoots it with lots and lots of NAC-35s. 

The Monsoon it should be able to kite at extreme range mostly ineffectual naval laser and medium NPPC fire, but the Uther Pendragon has slightly more gun and a lot more armor.  And if it does have to hurry things up it can charge in and use the bow chasers and probably come out ahead on the armor differential.  I reckon that the 2/3 thrust really hurts the Monsoon's viability. 

The Atreus is a harder match since the Atreus isn't a 2/3 slug, but if the Atreus tries to keep the range open the Uther comes out slightly ahead bow arc on rear+rear side in long or extreme range with more than half the firepower and more than double the armor.  And if it doesn't the Uther Pendragon can close bow on and if it gets into medium range with its bow guns it has quite a lot of them. 

In a nuke-off it "wins" against the Monsoon, which has fewer launchers and no point defense.  The Atreus has more point defense, but no capital missiles so a nuke off between them can only be a Davion win or a draw. 

Code: [Select]
Uther Pendragon (2580)
Mass: 1,400,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 2580
Mass: 1,400,000
Battle Value: 228,477
Tech Rating/Availability: E/E-X-E-F
Cost: 14,172,592,000 C-bills

Fuel: 5,000 tons (12,500)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 6
KF Drive Integrity: 28
Heat Sinks: 1709 (3418)
Structural Integrity: 150

Armor
    Nose: 595
    Fore Sides: 591/591
    Aft Sides: 591/591
    Aft: 491

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Small Craft (8)         6 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (8)         6 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Fighter (20)            4 Doors   
    Bay 4:  Cargo (144334.0 tons)   1 Door   

Ammunition:
    80 rounds of AR10 Killer Whale ammunition (100 tons),
    80 rounds of AR10 Barracuda ammunition (1,230 tons),
    80 rounds of AR10 White Shark ammunition (80 tons),
    340 rounds of NAC/35 ammunition (380 tons),
    1,536 rounds of LRM 20 ammunition (256 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 4
Grav Decks: 4 (56 m, 56 m, 56 m, 56 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 103
Crew:  72 officers, 334 enlisted/non-rated, 112 gunners, 120 bay personnel, 100 marines

Notes: Mounts 4,200 tons of ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                        Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                  Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (1,866 Heat)
6 Small Laser                                6   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/35)                 240  70(700) 70(700)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/35 Ammo (40 shots)
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                         900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/35)                 240  70(700) 70(700)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/35 Ammo (40 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/35)                 240  70(700) 70(700)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/35 Ammo (40 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/35)                 240  70(700) 70(700)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/35 Ammo (40 shots)
FRS/FLS (334 Heat)
6 Small Laser                                6   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/35)                 240  70(700) 70(700)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/35 Ammo (40 shots)
8 LRM 20                                    48   10(96)  10(96)  10(96)    0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 Ammo (384 shots)
4 PPC                                       40   4(40)   4(40)    0(0)     0(0)   PPC         
RBS/LBS (1,167 Heat)
7 Naval Laser 55                            1085 70(700) 70(700) 70(700) 70(700)  Capital Laser
    7 Naval Laser 45
4 Capital Missile Launcher (AR10 Launcher)  80   8(80)   8(80)   8(80)    8(80)   AR10       
    AR10 Barracuda Ammo (40 shots)
    AR10 Killer Whale Ammo (40 shots)
    AR10 White Shark Ammo (40 shots)
2 Small Laser                                2    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
ARS/ALS (334 Heat)
6 Small Laser                                6   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/35)                 240  70(700) 70(700)  0(0)     0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/35 Ammo (40 shots)
8 LRM 20                                    48   10(96)  10(96)  10(96)    0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 Ammo (384 shots)
4 PPC                                       40   4(40)   4(40)    0(0)     0(0)   PPC         
Aft (1,091 Heat)
6 Small Laser                                6   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
7 Naval Laser 55                            1085 70(700) 70(700) 70(700) 70(700)  Capital Laser
    7 Naval Laser 45




@Alsadius
You have some anachronisms.  The design is supposed to be for 2580.  AMS is prototyped in 2613 and ERPPCs in 2740 -- both in the Terran Hegemony/Star League -- and I don't think either makes into large scale production in the houses before the Helm Renaissance. 

Alsadius

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@Alsadius
You have some anachronisms.  The design is supposed to be for 2580.  AMS is prototyped in 2613 and ERPPCs in 2740 -- both in the Terran Hegemony/Star League -- and I don't think either makes into large scale production in the houses before the Helm Renaissance.

Whoops, good catch. Swap them for regular PPCs and machine guns. (And because machine gun ammo is a lot lighter, you can also add 100 tons more fuel and one more escape pod.)

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Federation-class Battleship
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $12,316,704,000.00
Magazine Cost: $43,216,000.00
BV2: 208,449

Mass: 1,250,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Armor Type: Ferro-Carbide
Armament:
36 Naval PPC Heavy
36 Naval AC 20
24 Naval Laser 55
32 Machine Gun (IS)
32 PPC (IS)

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 225,000.00
Thrust
Safe: 3
Maximum: 5
Controls: 3,125.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (25 Integrity) 565,625.00
Jump Sail: (6 Integrity) 93.00
Structural Integrity: 150 187,500.00
Total Heat Sinks: 5715(11430) Double 5,000.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 4500 points 1,836.00
Fire Control Computers: 0.00
Armor: 3090 pts Ferro-Carbide 3,750.00
Fore: 500
Fore-Left/Right: 540/540
Aft-Left/Right: 540/540
Aft: 430

Dropship Capacity: 2 2,000.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 0.00
Medium: 1 100.00
Large: 0.00
Escape Pods: 43 301.00
Life Boats: 40 280.00

Crew And Passengers:
68 Officers in 2nd Class Quarters 476.00
227 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 1,589.00
107 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 749.00
34 Bay Personnel 0.00
1st Class Passengers 0.00
2nd Class Passengers 0.00
Steerage Passengers 0.00

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
6 Naval PPC Heavy Nose 1350 900 (90-C) Extreme-C 18,000.00
6 Naval PPC Heavy Aft 1350 900 (90-C) Extreme-C 18,000.00
6 Naval PPC Heavy FL 1350 900 (90-C) Extreme-C 18,000.00
6 Naval PPC Heavy FR 1350 900 (90-C) Extreme-C 18,000.00
6 Naval PPC Heavy AL 1350 900 (90-C) Extreme-C 18,000.00
6 Naval PPC Heavy AR 1350 900 (90-C) Extreme-C 18,000.00
6 Naval AC 20 FL 360 1200 (120-C) Long-C 15,000.00
6 Naval AC 20 FR 360 1200 (120-C) Long-C 15,000.00
6 Naval AC 20 AL 360 1200 (120-C) Long-C 15,000.00
6 Naval AC 20 AR 360 1200 (120-C) Long-C 15,000.00
6 Naval AC 20 LBS 360 1200 (120-C) Long-C 15,000.00
6 Naval AC 20 RBS 360 1200 (120-C) Long-C 15,000.00
6 Naval Laser 55 Nose 510 330 (33-C) Extreme-C 6,600.00
6 Naval Laser 55 LBS 510 330 (33-C) Extreme-C 6,600.00
6 Naval Laser 55 RBS 510 330 (33-C) Extreme-C 6,600.00
6 Naval Laser 55 Aft 510 330 (33-C) Extreme-C 6,600.00
4 Machine Gun (IS) Nose 8 (0.8-C) Short-PDS 2.00
4 Machine Gun (IS) LBS 8 (0.8-C) Short-PDS 2.00
4 Machine Gun (IS) RBS 8 (0.8-C) Short-PDS 2.00
4 Machine Gun (IS) Aft 8 (0.8-C) Short-PDS 2.00
4 Machine Gun (IS) FL 8 (0.8-C) Short-PDS 2.00
4 Machine Gun (IS) FR 8 (0.8-C) Short-PDS 2.00
4 Machine Gun (IS) AL 8 (0.8-C) Short-PDS 2.00
4 Machine Gun (IS) AR 8 (0.8-C) Short-PDS 2.00
4 PPC Nose 40 40 (4-C) Medium 28.00
4 PPC LBS 40 40 (4-C) Medium 28.00
4 PPC RBS 40 40 (4-C) Medium 28.00
4 PPC Aft 40 40 (4-C) Medium 28.00
4 PPC FL 40 40 (4-C) Medium 28.00
4 PPC FR 40 40 (4-C) Medium 28.00
4 PPC AL 40 40 (4-C) Medium 28.00
4 PPC AR 40 40 (4-C) Medium 28.00

Ammo Rounds Mass
Naval AC 20 Ammo 1800 720.00
Machine Gun (IS) Ammo 3200 16.00

Equipment Mass
Bay Fighter 12 1,800.00
Bay Small Craft 2 400.00
Cargo, Standard 25000 25,000.00
« Last Edit: 21 May 2022, 16:39:07 by Alsadius »

Vehrec

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While it is unquestionably the 'diet warship' option, the former UHC "Basantapur Naval Design Collective" offered the plans for the Malagrotta or 'Revenge' class battleship.  The design had been laid out on buddhist principles, with it's design having pleasing 8-fold symmetry of many weapons systems, 108 life boats, and a 'middle path' of warship design.  It's armor was built to the highest standard available, it was given one wing of fighters launched from a ventral bay, and a massive number of Barracuda and LRM launchers dominate it's anti-fighter defenses while a minimal set of machine guns provide point defense.  The design was built around a pair of twin NAC-30s in each broadside quarter, while a rapid-fire NAC-10 chase and stern gun are mounted to perform persuits or disengagement.  Finally, medium NPPCs are mounted in the front-quarters, while naval lasers cover the flanks and rear-quarters-these were an afterthought to 'fill space' on the design.  For escorts, four dropship collars are clustered around the fore of the ship, leaving the Malagrotta with a 'pimply face' but allowing the ship to thrust at up to a full G with the dropships still attached.
 
Overall, the Malagrotta was designed to match, not exceed the Monsoon and Atreus.  However, it was designed to do so on a smaller hull, and spending more of it's mass budget on 'sexy gofast' than the Monsoon, while carrying more fuel than an Atreus despite also carrying 138 kilotons of cargo and spare parts.  In an attempt to prove this, an elaborate series of 'battle value calculations' were carried out in simulators, designed to show that the design had better numerical metrics than it's opponents-both outside the fleet and within it.  Designers pegged the Malagrotta at .1795 BV/ton, while the Pendragon was asssessed at .1632 and the Federation at .1691.

Code: [Select]
Malagrotta Battleship
Mass: 1,050,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 2580
Mass: 1,050,000
Battle Value: 188,481
Tech Rating/Availability: E/E-X-E-F
Cost: 12,139,656,000 C-bills

Fuel: 4,000 tons (10,000)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 6
KF Drive Integrity: 22
Heat Sinks: 0 (0)
Structural Integrity: 80

Armor
    Nose: 280
    Fore Sides: 250/250
    Aft Sides: 198/198
    Aft: 176

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (18)            6 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (6)         2 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (136168.0 tons)   1 Door   

Ammunition:
    560 rounds of NAC/10 ammunition (0.4 tons),
    8,000 rounds of Machine Gun ammunition (6 tons),
    384 rounds of LRM 20 ammunition (8 tons),
    240 rounds of Barracuda ammunition (120 tons),
    480 rounds of NAC/30 ammunition (6.4 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 4
Grav Decks: 2 (100 m, 100 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 108
Crew:  50 officers, 205 enlisted/non-rated, 98 gunners, 66 bay personnel, 5 passengers, 112 marines

Notes: Mounts 1,630 tons of ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                    Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                              Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (284 Heat)
7 Naval Autocannon (NAC/10)             210  70(700) 70(700) 70(700)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/10 Ammo (280 shots)
5 Capital Missile Launcher (Barracuda)  50   10(100) 10(100) 10(100) 10(100)  Capital Missile
    Barracuda Ammo (60 shots)
4 LRM 20                                24   5(48)   5(48)   5(48)     0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 Ammo (288 shots)
6 Machine Gun                            0   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
    Machine Gun Ammo (200000 shots)
FRS/FLS (1,234 Heat)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)             200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (60 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)             200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (60 shots)
4 LRM 20                                24   5(48)   5(48)   5(48)     0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 Ammo (288 shots)
6 Machine Gun                            0   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
    Machine Gun Ammo (200000 shots)
6 Naval PPC (Medium)                    810  54(540) 54(540) 54(540) 54(540)  Capital PPC
RBS/LBS (499 Heat)
5 Capital Missile Launcher (Barracuda)  50   10(100) 10(100) 10(100) 10(100)  Capital Missile
    Barracuda Ammo (60 shots)
4 LRM 20                                24   5(48)   5(48)   5(48)     0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 Ammo (288 shots)
6 Machine Gun                            0   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
5 Naval Laser 55                        425  28(275) 28(275) 28(275) 28(275)  Capital Laser
ARS/ALS (934 Heat)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)             200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (60 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30)             200  60(600) 60(600) 60(600)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/30 Ammo (60 shots)
4 LRM 20                                24   5(48)   5(48)   5(48)     0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 Ammo (288 shots)
6 Machine Gun                            0   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
    Machine Gun Ammo (600000 shots)
6 Naval Laser 55                        510  33(330) 33(330) 33(330) 33(330)  Capital Laser
Aft (284 Heat)
5 Capital Missile Launcher (Barracuda)  50   10(100) 10(100) 10(100) 10(100)  Capital Missile
    Barracuda Ammo (60 shots)
7 Naval Autocannon (NAC/10)             210  70(700) 70(700) 70(700)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/10 Ammo (280 shots)
4 LRM 20                                24   5(48)   5(48)   5(48)     0(0)   LRM         
    LRM 20 Ammo (288 shots)
6 Machine Gun                            0   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
    Machine Gun Ammo (200000 shots)

« Last Edit: 21 May 2022, 06:10:56 by Vehrec »
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Atarlost

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If we assume that as long as we're comparing battleships to battleships the C-bill costs are proportionate to actual costs, BV per C-bill is a better representation of efficiency than BV per ton.   the Uther Pendragon comes in at 1.61e-5 BV per C-bill while the Malagrotta comes in at 1.55e-5 BV per C-bill.  The Federation comes in at 1.69e-5 BV per C-bill. 

I am obviously biased, but I'd assess these thusly:

The Federation is the most efficient fighter, but it is closely tied to your fleet train for fuel and spare parts.  The software Alsadius used doesn't break up bays properly, but the NAC-20s should be in two 60 point bays at each location and the HNPPCs in either a 60 and a 30 in each location or two 45s.  Good for defense near naval bases, but not much for offensive operations at more than one jump unless your opponents are too polite to raid your supply lines.  This is the diplomatic option. 

The Malagrotta is great for showing the flag during peacetime, but in a war it's stuck fighting something unpleasantly like a fair fight which is going to end with a lot of wrecks and near wrecks for both navies.  It can do offensive operations as well as any contemporary battleship, which is to say most of your victorious fleet may be sitting out most of the rest of the war undergoing repairs.  This is a conservative design that is acceptable for war fighting and good for not war fighting. 

The Uther Pendragon is designed to win battles decisively while taking mostly just armor damage (which I assume is a lot easier to repair than structural damage or wrecked weapon bays) because it has extremely heavy armor for the period.  Except to the rear it's TAC resistant against 60 point bays.  Looking at warships sorted by date in MML the Narukami's has four mixed 70 point NAC-20/NAC-30 bays but there are no other >60 point bays that aren't dual NAC-35s for far enough into the future that they're not even design studies yet.  It has pretty good BV intangibles like cargo and fuel and can show the flag away from naval bases or threaten deep offensives.  This is the aggressive option that is a waste of money (about 2 billion C-bill equivalents per hull compared to the Malagrotta) if it doesn't get used in a war. 


TL;DR
The Federation is for fighting close to naval bases, the Uther Pendragon is for fighting far from naval bases, and the Malagrotta is for hopefully not having to fight because you can intimidate people with your battleship numbers.  Also, I'm biased in favor of armor. 

Alsadius

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Just noticed an issue with the software that Atarlost and Vehrec used - they have ammunition weights very badly wrong. For example, the Uther Pendragon is listed as having 1,410 tons of capital missiles, but that should be 9,600. The Malagrotta is listed at 120 tons, but it should be 7,200. Likewise, those eight tons of LRM-20 ammo should be 64 tons. It doesn't affect the final results all that much, because of the big cargo bays those ships have - easy enough to just take the difference out of cargo. But it ought to be noted.

That said, one way that it does affect the ships in combat is for long-term deployment - because they both use capital missiles, they're going to be stuck carrying a lot of ammo tonnage around if they want to be able to reload after a fight. The Federation doesn't have that issue, since its ammo is very light (only 736 tons total). And that's with a pretty deep ammo bin of 50 shots per NAC, versus the 12/launcher on the Malagrotta and 30/launcher on the Pendragon. That closes a lot of the gap between them on long-distance work - the big-cargo ones can still do more overall because of their carriage capacity, but if it's going to see a lot of combat, mine's a lot less likely to run out of ammo.

Also, cost comparisons aren't great in WarShips, because other than your tonnage it almost entirely boils down to how many DropShips you can carry - each collar is $802M, if you do the math, so the two collars on the Federation(~1.6B) cost almost as much as my weapons, armor, and engines combined(~$2.2B). The Federation could cut its price by 13%, from $12.317B to $10.711B, just by omitting the two collars. WarShip cost calculations are just wacky, tbh.

Lastly, I don't like things like "TAC resistant to 60-point bays" in an AU context - that stuff needs to be considered for tabletop, but if you're not limited to the hard rules of the game, then it should be seen as more of a continuum. The Uther is somewhat more durable than the Federation, and it's less likely to have an enemy cannon score a penetrating hit, but it's not a binary thing in a realistic world.

Vehrec

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If we assume that as long as we're comparing battleships to battleships the C-bill costs are proportionate to actual costs, BV per C-bill is a better representation of efficiency than BV per ton.   the Uther Pendragon comes in at 1.61e-5 BV per C-bill while the Malagrotta comes in at 1.55e-5 BV per C-bill.  The Federation comes in at 1.69e-5 BV per C-bill. 

I am obviously biased, but I'd assess these thusly:

The Federation is the most efficient fighter, but it is closely tied to your fleet train for fuel and spare parts.  The software Alsadius used doesn't break up bays properly, but the NAC-20s should be in two 60 point bays at each location and the HNPPCs in either a 60 and a 30 in each location or two 45s.  Good for defense near naval bases, but not much for offensive operations at more than one jump unless your opponents are too polite to raid your supply lines.  This is the diplomatic option. 

The Malagrotta is great for showing the flag during peacetime, but in a war it's stuck fighting something unpleasantly like a fair fight which is going to end with a lot of wrecks and near wrecks for both navies.  It can do offensive operations as well as any contemporary battleship, which is to say most of your victorious fleet may be sitting out most of the rest of the war undergoing repairs.  This is a conservative design that is acceptable for war fighting and good for not war fighting. 

The Uther Pendragon is designed to win battles decisively while taking mostly just armor damage (which I assume is a lot easier to repair than structural damage or wrecked weapon bays) because it has extremely heavy armor for the period.  Except to the rear it's TAC resistant against 60 point bays.  Looking at warships sorted by date in MML the Narukami's has four mixed 70 point NAC-20/NAC-30 bays but there are no other >60 point bays that aren't dual NAC-35s for far enough into the future that they're not even design studies yet.  It has pretty good BV intangibles like cargo and fuel and can show the flag away from naval bases or threaten deep offensives.  This is the aggressive option that is a waste of money (about 2 billion C-bill equivalents per hull compared to the Malagrotta) if it doesn't get used in a war. 


TL;DR
The Federation is for fighting close to naval bases, the Uther Pendragon is for fighting far from naval bases, and the Malagrotta is for hopefully not having to fight because you can intimidate people with your battleship numbers.  Also, I'm biased in favor of armor.

I'm gonna point out that as Alsadius says, the costs for warships are skewed to hell and back because Warship design rules are based on Jumpship design rules, and as a result their cost is dominated by their collars.  Now, I understand the desire to not make naked warships optimal jumpships, but it's gone a bit too far on ships where advanced armor, nuclear-weapons resistant internal bulkheads and other such things really ought to be making up most of the cost.  And of course, OOCly, I can admit freely that the Design Collective will skew things in the direction that most favors their ship.

As for armor, anything with 150 Structural Integrity is blowing my suspension of disbelief.  Does the Du Shi Wong have that?  yes.  Does any other battleship in the canon designs?  Not until you get to the Leviathan.  Most warships don't do that sort of thing, and yes it's suboptimal, yes it leaves you vulnerable to being blown open to TACs.  By a strict reading of the requirements, any weapons in excess of those needed to TAC a Monsoon in a bay are wasted.  That class is known to use Standard armor, not the ferro-carbide we're throwing around.  60 or 70 point bays are wasted points by comparison if we're truly min-maxing.  Since I'm not min-maxing, i fool around with a few of those myself.  Including the 14 NAC-10s.

As for the Margolotta's capital missile bay, I don't see the issue of 'needing to reload after a fight' because those are specifically called out as anti ASF missiles.  They're a tiny fraction of the ship's punch, and have a specific, defined doctrinal role.  If you need to shoot down more than 60 ASFs per primary ship quarter, things have gotten very bad.  Especially once you add in the lasers and LRMs.
« Last Edit: 22 May 2022, 06:26:36 by Vehrec »
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Vehrec

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Ah, woops I was way too sleep deprived last night.

How about the opposite of some of these tanks though, an Arch-Defender which can do 5/8 and carry a decent warload?
« Last Edit: 22 May 2022, 08:44:12 by Vehrec »
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Alsadius

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As for the Margolotta's capital missile bay, I don't see the issue of 'needing to reload after a fight' because those are specifically called out as anti ASF missiles.  They're a tiny fraction of the ship's punch, and have a specific, defined doctrinal role.  If you need to shoot down more than 60 ASFs per primary ship quarter, things have gotten very bad.  Especially once you add in the lasers and LRMs.

Barracuda is a long way from one shot being one kill. It's 20 damage, and even with its attack bonus, it won't always hit. You can easily spend a dozen shots to drop one heavy fighter. You don't need to be fighting an Enterprise to burn through the bulk of your missiles.

Vehrec

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Barracuda is a long way from one shot being one kill. It's 20 damage, and even with its attack bonus, it won't always hit. You can easily spend a dozen shots to drop one heavy fighter. You don't need to be fighting an Enterprise to burn through the bulk of your missiles.

Well a single Barracuda missile weighs 30 tons.  It's a bit hard to believe that an ASF can survive a hit from one.  Then again, it's hard to believe that an 30 ton missile costs only 8000 C-bills.  That's less than the cost of a single ton of standard armor.  And just four Barracuda launchers on a Thera are called 'impressive'.  Indeed, we consistently see ships treat a single Barracuda launcher as adequate Anti-ASF firepower on an angle when combined with other weaponry.  So there's a clear fluff and rules disconnect here, not least because a drone operating system costs 5 times as much as a whole teleoperated missile.  I'd support a buff of the Barracuda's anti-ASF attack stats, in exchange for increasing it's cost 100x.  Hell, I'd support increasing the cost per missile one hundred fold as a matter of principle.  That would bring it inline with the costs of 30 tons of SRM ammo.



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Alsadius

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Yeah, that's totally legit. When I've tried to run fluff-based games for BT aerospace, I've house-ruled that the capital to standard ratio is more like 40:1 than 10:1, so a single Barracuda will one-shot most fighters and do serious damage to even the heaviest. And in the rules re-work that I've had half-written for years, I stick a whole extra scale in between capital and normal ("naval", for DropShips etc.), so the ratio is 100:1. So I agree in principle, but I was designing this around (more or less) the standard rules. 

Vehrec

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I think that rather than add an extra damage scale I would prefer something like doing damage to every fighter in a squadron, or having +1d6 damage, like machine guns against infantry.  Fluff it as the actual missile you load on the warship actually having 12 terminal warheads that detach and throw off a bunch of decoys as well. 
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Tyler Jorgensson

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I already have some rough notes for how every state might initially react to the aftermath of the Malagrotta war.

Basically, naval arms race. A MASSIVE naval arms race.

Sad face… this existed

But on topic will contribute tomorrow after work for sure!

Alsadius

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Sad face… this existed

Yeah, but they're just so bloody much work to run properly. I totally intend to run something like that again when I retire, though.

Daryk

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We're all planning our retirement projects these days...  ^-^

Tyler Jorgensson

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IDK how/if the Davion Civil War went in your AU, but the first ship of the Avalon-class Battleship would be named after General John Gordon (definitely not the Rostov's) a solid dependable and well liked officer from the period. Anyways fluff aside I tried to make a general jack-of-all-trade style ship that met the requirements. One of the only reasons I put mass armor/structure was because of such losses in the last war as well as the fact that its a flagship that will cost a LOT of money and there will not be too many of them. A nice varied armament that it can fire most of it at one time (I think its like 8,000+ Heat generation with 7,000 Heat Sinks) and is capable in all directions. Two full fighter wings, a squadron of small craft, a company of marines, and battalion of mechs (similar to the Robinson-class). I was going to equip it with a Mobile HPG but the tech isn't available yet. Generous ammo bays along with four Dropships and a hundred thousand ton cargo bay give it decent endurance. Not enough escape pods/ life boats for the entire crew.

Not 100% sure if everything's correct but I did double check (which means absolutely nothing lol). I'm happy with it because I do like jack-of-all-trades designs but its your AU (which I definitely want to read parts of)

Code: [Select]
Avalon-class Battleship 'AFFS John Gordon'
Mass: 1,500,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Mass: 1,500,000
Battle Value: 268,995
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-X
Cost: 17,300,030,000 C-bills

Weapons
- 64x Large Lasers
- 64x Machine Guns (1,600x Rounds Each)
- 8x Naval Laser 55's
- 24x Naval Laser 45's
- 12x Naval Heavy PPC's
- 8x Medium Naval PPC's
- 16x Naval Autocannon 25's (30x Rounds Each)
- 4x Naval Heavy Gauss Rifles (40x Rounds Each)
- 9x Killer Whale Missile Launchers (30x Missiles Each)

Fuel: 5,000 tons (12,500)
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Sail Integrity: 7
KF Drive Integrity: 30
Heat Sinks: 3500 (7000)
Structural Integrity: 150

Armor
    Nose: 840
    Fore Sides: 750/750
    Aft Sides: 750/750
    Aft: 750

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (36)            6 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (6)         2 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Mech (36)               12 Doors 
    Bay 4:  Cargo (100,477.0 tons)   1 Door   

Ammunition:
    480 rounds of NAC/25 ammunition (288 tons),
    160 rounds of Heavy N-Gauss ammunition (80 tons),
    270 rounds of Killer Whale ammunition (13,500 tons),
    51,200 rounds of Machine Gun ammunition (256 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 4
Grav Decks: 4 (100 m, 100 m, 100 m, 100 m)
Escape Pods: 30
Life Boats: 30
Crew:  80 officers, 275 enlisted/non-rated, 103 gunners, 174 bay personnel, 100 marines

Notes: Equipped with 4,500 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                       Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                 Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class 
     
Nose (1,211 Heat)
3 Capital Missile Launcher (Killer Whale)  60   12(120) 12(120) 12(120) 12(120)  Capital Missile
    Killer Whale Ammo (90 shots)
8 Large Laser                              64   6(64)   6(64)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
8 Machine Gun                               0   2(16)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
    Machine Gun Ammo (6400 shots)
2 Naval Gauss (Heavy)                      36   60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital Gauss
    Heavy N-Gauss Ammo (80 shots)
2 Naval Gauss (Heavy)                      36   60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital Gauss
    Heavy N-Gauss Ammo (80 shots)
4 Naval Laser 55                           340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
3 Naval PPC (Heavy)                        675  45(450) 45(450) 45(450) 45(450)  Capital PPC

FRS/FLS (954 Heat)
8 Large Laser                              64   6(64)   6(64)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
8 Machine Gun                               0   2(16)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
    Machine Gun Ammo (6400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/25)                170  50(500) 50(500) 50(500)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/25 Ammo (60 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/25)                170  50(500) 50(500) 50(500)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/25 Ammo (60 shots)
4 Naval Laser 45                           280  18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180)  Capital Laser
2 Naval PPC (Medium)                       270  18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180)  Capital PPC

RBS/LBS (1,079 Heat)
3 Capital Missile Launcher (Killer Whale)  60   12(120) 12(120) 12(120) 12(120)  Capital Missile
    Killer Whale Ammo (90 shots)
8 Large Laser                              64   6(64)   6(64)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
8 Machine Gun                               0   2(16)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
    Machine Gun Ammo (6400 shots)
4 Naval Laser 45                           280  18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180)  Capital Laser
3 Naval PPC (Heavy)                        675  45(450) 45(450) 45(450) 45(450)  Capital PPC

ARS/ALS (954 Heat)
8 Large Laser                              64   6(64)   6(64)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
8 Machine Gun                               0   2(16)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
    Machine Gun Ammo (6400 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/25)                170  50(500) 50(500) 50(500)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/25 Ammo (60 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/25)                170  50(500) 50(500) 50(500)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/25 Ammo (60 shots)
4 Naval Laser 45                           280  18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180)  Capital Laser
2 Naval PPC (Medium)                       270  18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180)  Capital PPC

Aft (1,079 Heat)
8 Large Laser                              64   6(64)   6(64)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
8 Machine Gun                               0   2(16)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
    Machine Gun Ammo (6400 shots)
4 Naval Laser 55                           340  22(220) 22(220) 22(220) 22(220)  Capital Laser
3 Naval PPC (Heavy)                        675  45(450) 45(450) 45(450) 45(450)  Capital PPC

Liam's Ghost

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The Davion civil war definitely happened as is. The point of divergence (failure of Hegemony diplomacy during the Third Andurien War) happened well after that.

Though when I was double checking my books, I noticed the Davion Handbook goes into detail about how the Capellans were supporting the Varneys indirectly, while the only thing the Liao Handbook says about the entire period was that the chancellors at the time "maintained cordial relations with the Davions."

Sending money and mercenaries to prop up one of the factions. Cordial relations indeed!
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!