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Author Topic: Thoughts on what the Durendal would have looked like  (Read 358 times)

Hellraiser

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Thoughts on what the Durendal would have looked like
« on: 14 July 2021, 01:24:07 »
Let me first say that I'm not looking for design submissions just thoughts.

Nor am I wondering what I/we/you "want" the Durendal to look like  (I've designed plenty of those over the years)

What I'm wondering about is what is "might" have actually looked like if it had ever been completed based on canon ships.


In these musings I went over the stats for the most "logical", in my mind, ships that would have similar stats or drawn inspiration from.
1.  Fox
2.  Avalon
3.  Davion-1 & 2
4.  Robinson-1 & 2
I left off the top end SL/AoW era FS ships when generating my ideas & for the most part the Mjolnir too as the final product was mostly Lyran designed.


First up... Size.   What would it weigh in at?
My first thought is, the Fox & Avalon are NOT large members of their respective class & for that matter neither were the Robinson/Davion.
The FS ships all appear to be squarely Middle or even Lower end of the tonnage spectrum compared to other designs.
So I was thinking maybe 480KT as a "light" Destroyer?  Exactly double the size of the Fox too which is nice for comparison.
But, there is already a DD at that size & I also wanted to be a bit new & cover something not seen before.
490 was also taken & 520 matches the Davion-1.
So, I'm thinking maybe 500 on the dot would be good, I can't find a WS that size & IIRC it matches the top end of the JS size bracket & the "pressurized-yard" size too.
  (I might be wrong there but I think 500KT is the limit for JS & Pressurized both. Or maybe its just the TRO3057 size example?  IDK)
Anyway, 500 KT seems good for those reasons. 
I'm thinking like most FS-3050+ designs its a "humble" ship built as a task force/fleet HQ ship, not a min/max'd ship killer or "cheap" ship given the other FS 3050 vessels.


Next up,  Speed?   
The Fox & Robinson are both 3/5 but they are the bottom end of ship sizes & are both basically transports.
Meanwhile the Davions & Avalon are all 4/6.
So while 3/5 is my favorite WS speed, I'm betting the Durendal would have been a 4/6 mover.

Which brings us to Collars & LFBs.
While the Davions only had 0/2 each, every other ship in comparison has quite a few more.
Robinson (And Mjolnir) at 4,  Fox at 5,  and Avalon at 6  (Even the Lyran big boys, Commonwealth/Tharkad, packed 6 each)
So, while not every "old" ship had lots of collars, the new ones did & both FS new ships packed LFBs & their JS Escorts all were modded w/ LFBs per the FM.
Soooo,  I'm thinking the Durendal would have had LFB for sure, &, maybe 5 collars like the smaller Fox to be right in the middle of the 4-6 spread.


In terms of "available" weapons, we could say "anything" is possible, but, I wanted to go with things that I knew for a fact had been used by the FS in the same era.
So in this case while I looked over the older ships for location & common themes, I restricted myself to JUST the capital weapons found on the Fox/Avalon.

Both ships packed the NL45/55 lasers.  Both packed ACs  (10's or 20/40).   Finally both ships had several missile launchers.  (Barracudas or AR-10/Screen)
So with the above in mind, I'm thinking, a mix of both lasers again, some Triple bays of NAC20's for bulk firepower, & AR10's/Screens & even some Krakens since those were used on the Overlord-A3 & Excalibur PWS.

For locations, IDK, I'm mulling it around, not wanting to go 4-corners cheese & trying to come up with a theme.
Maybe the AC's in traditional Broad/Aft bays like the SLDF had them.
But, the Lasers cover both Fore/Aft sides.
Finally concentrate the missiles away from the AC's,  Nose/Fore/Rear.   (I'm picturing some recessed torpedo tubes along the Nose/Front similar to the new BSG look)
These splits also keeps the different ammo in different areas & gives full 8 arc coverage like the Fox has but a bit more concentration into bays.

For Anti-Fighter weapons, I'm thinking the typical LL of most FS ships will be common.
   But, maybe give them some upgrades like the Fox did w/ LPLs & add in some ER to them as well.
Also follow the modern theme of proper AMS v/s the old SL/MG options for point defense of the Star League era.
Maybe some LRMs, but no mass batteries of cheese bays with 60+ "standard" scale weapons.
Just round out each Arc with a 6-18 extra small guns in 2-3 bays.


Armor & SI:
For Armor,  I'm thinking, since the FS was dumping Imp-FA into the Fox & Lamelor-FC into the Avalon,  then the Durendal makes for a good place to use your good old fashioned Ferro Carbide original grade.  Probably pretty close to maxed amounts given the other 3050 examples.   Thoughts?
For SI, the Davion wasn't very beefy but the Robinson was solid for a ship that small, meanwhile the post 3050 models are all 100SI & higher.
Sooo, I'm thinking maybe the Durendal should split the difference between the Fox/Avalon & go with 110 SI?

Fighters/Shuttles & other Bays:
   The Robinson/Dav-2 both pack a wing or more, meanwhile the Fox/Avalon only have a couple squadrons.  The Dav-1 is a failure with a pair of shuttles.
I think this is the one place I might push beyond existing canon (or acknowledge the Mjolnir at least with 2 full wings) and say the Durendal might have had a decent amount of fighters.   I'm thinking 1 Wing like the Dav-2 had but with an extra allotment of shuttles.  Say 2 Squadrons for 18+12.
I'm calling on those because, and maybe this is more of a "want" than a reality, but, I want to call on the idea the Robinson had & add some mech bays.
40 Mech Bays to duplicate the Robinson, with the same # of Shuttles (12) as well, but, with only 18 fighters.
With the Fox being a test bed/mass production ship & the Avalon is the Fleet flagship & both being surrounded by many DS/JS, I think having the Durendal be a bit more of the "attack" ship & support the Army in an offensive the way the Robinson did feels like a nice alternative.

Fuel, GravDecks, & Heatsinks.
Based on Fuel of the other compared ships,  I'm thinking 1% = 5000KT seems like a good amount. 
All but 1 ship sport 2 decks, all but 2 ships have decks under 100m,  so a couple under 100m seems to be a good standard.
While I don't have an issue with SHS on a warship (lots of tonnage to spare) the modern theme of the Fox & Avalon alone w/ the Block-II designs all pretty much show DHS as common use so I guess DHS is fine.
For Cargo, I'd like 10% or so, but, I'm betting its going to be less based on the Speed/SI listed above & the small bays for the Fox/Avalon.
We'll see what is left after I run the #'s in a design program.0


Anyway, that is where my brain is at as I look over the existing ships of the era or some older ships of similar size by the Suns.

Again, less of a what I "want" it to be or a min/max-optimal load & more of a "what seems to fit" based on the other designs I compared to.

Anyone have any thoughts, contradictions, or suggestions based on existing examples?

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AlphaMirage

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Re: Thoughts on what the Durendal would have looked like
« Reply #1 on: 14 July 2021, 06:01:50 »
Seems good by cursory inspection. I always use the whirlwind as a guide. Uparmed and armoured of course. The IS fleets weren't expected to support RCTs in the periphery

Cannonshop

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Re: Thoughts on what the Durendal would have looked like
« Reply #2 on: 14 July 2021, 11:39:44 »
Needs a big old RAMMING PROW!! like a big Sword sticking off the nose.  (Davions luv to ram, just look at the list.)
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Sharpnel

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Re: Thoughts on what the Durendal would have looked like
« Reply #3 on: 14 July 2021, 13:03:35 »
Here's my stab at it. Not quite to your requirements due to MekLab. I could only go to 90 SI being the main issue.


Code: [Select]
Durendal Destroyer
Mass: 500,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 3145
Mass: 500,000
Battle Value: 93,122
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-F
Cost: 6,024,643,000 C-bills

Fuel: 5,000 tons (12,500)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 4
KF Drive Integrity: 12
Heat Sinks: 0 (0)
Structural Integrity: 90

Armor
    Nose: 120
    Fore Sides: 95/95
    Aft Sides: 95/95
    Aft: 100

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Small Craft (12)        2 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Fighter (20)            4 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (49604.0 tons)    2 Doors   

Ammunition:
    3,840 rounds of Anti-Missile System [IS] ammunition (320 tons),
    200 rounds of NAC/25 ammunition (120 tons),
    40 rounds of White Shark ammunition (1600 tons),
    40 rounds of Barracuda ammunition (1200 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 2 (100 m, 125 m)
Escape Pods: 24
Life Boats: 24
Crew:  50 officers, 135 enlisted/non-rated, 45 gunners, 100 bay personnel, 12 passengers, 50 marines

Notes: Mounts 683 tons of ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                        Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                  Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (344 Heat)
2 Capital Missile Launcher (Barracuda)      20   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)    4(40)   Capital Missile
    Barracuda Ammo (20 shots)
4 Naval Laser 45                            280  18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180)  Capital Laser
4 Large Pulse Laser                         40   4(36)   4(36)    0(0)     0(0)   Pulse Laser
4 Anti-Missile System                        4   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
FRS/FLS (284 Heat)
2 Capital Missile Launcher (White Shark)    30   6(60)   6(60)   6(60)    6(60)   Capital Missile
    White Shark Ammo (20 shots)
3 Naval Laser 45                            210  14(135) 14(135) 14(135) 14(135)  Capital Laser
4 Large Pulse Laser                         40   4(36)   4(36)    0(0)     0(0)   Pulse Laser
4 Anti-Missile System                        4   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480shots)
RBS/LBS (384 Heat)
4 Large Pulse Laser                         40   4(36)   4(36)    0(0)     0(0)   Pulse Laser
4 Anti-Missile System                        4   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/25)                 170  50(500) 50(500) 50(500)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/25 Ammo (50 shots)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/25)                 170  50(500) 50(500) 50(500)   0(0)   Capital AC 
    NAC/25 Ammo (50 shots)
ARS/ALS (254 Heat)
3 Naval Laser 45                            210  14(135) 14(135) 14(135) 14(135)  Capital Laser
4 Large Pulse Laser                         40   4(36)   4(36)    0(0)     0(0)   Pulse Laser
4 Anti-Missile System                        4   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)
Aft (64 Heat)
2 Capital Missile Launcher (Barracuda)      20   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)    4(40)   Capital Missile
    Barracuda Ammo (20 shots)
4 Large Pulse Laser                         40   4(36)   4(36)    0(0)     0(0)   Pulse Laser
4 Anti-Missile System                        4   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (480 shots)


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