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BattleTech Player Boards => Fan Designs and Rules => Aerospace => Topic started by: Cannonshop on 23 June 2022, 09:56:32

Title: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Cannonshop on 23 June 2022, 09:56:32
Okay, there have been some implied tech changes in my recent story "Self Contained Modular Robot".

also some changes based on who is approving the budgets, and how big they get to be.

This opens up an idea.

While the era is 3053-55, the tech available can come right out of Jihad or post-Jihad, but it has to be Inner Sphere.

You may also dip into 'obsolete' tech for this.

Here's the needs:

Smallest hull you can cram the following:

Stealth/ECM
Warship C3
twelve fighters
four smallcraft
eight Capital missile tubes
One capital, or two sub-capital energy weapons
AMS/LAMS
A Jump Core
a 4/6 movement curve.
1 platoon of battlearmor/infantry with boarding gear.
Black Box comms

How small can you go? how cheap can you make it?

The role is the same as the U-Boats in WW1 or WW2.

good luck.
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: kindalas on 23 June 2022, 13:39:31


Introduced because of the reforms prompted by Hanse Steiner-Davion due to the revelations from the Wolf Dragoons and Natasha Kerensky about the SLDF deserters.

The Silver "Fox" class Patrol Escort was developed to act as a deep commerce raider for extended duration missions without support.

Its primary armament is an octet of AR10 launchers burred in the nose of the ship. The missiles are supported by a pair of Heavy Naval Lasers.

The vessel has dense layer of modified small pulse lasers to act as a point defense system.

The secondary function of the vessel is to act as an inspection vessel for anti piracy and search and rescue work.

For this mission the ship has a dozen aerospace fighters and four small craft. Along with bunks for 48 battle armor inspection troopers.

To allow the vessels to operate as groups a brand new Naval C3 system was included along with a Naval Comm-Scanner Suite that was made available from Comstar's records on the BugEye spy craft.

A blackbox system was added using an isolated power and electronics system.

And the integrated computer system was developed with layers of redundancies and cutoffs allowing the vessel to operate in "simplistic" mode when the treat of electronic warfare is present. Because of this every system on the vessel has manual controls and overrides that depending on the system can "brick" systems or allow as few as three crew members to load, plot and fire the AR10 missile systems.

Two small counter rotating gravity decks were included to ensure crew health on the long voyages.

Code: [Select]


Sliver Patrol Escort
Mass: 100,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3055
Mass: 100,000
Cost: 7,497,432,000 C-bills

Fuel: 2,000 tons (20,000)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 4
Heat Sinks: 890
Structural Integrity: 110

Armor
    Nose: 81
    Fore Sides: 65/65
    Aft Sides: 61/61
    Aft: 41

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (12)            6 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (4)         1 Door   
    Bay 3:  BattleArmor (IS) (12)   1 Door   
    Bay 4:  Cargo (2482.0 tons)     1 Door   

Ammunition:
    80 rounds of AR10 Barracuda ammunition (2,400 tons),
    16 rounds of AR10 Peacemaker ammunition (50 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 2 (90 m, 90 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 48
Crew:  15 officers, 62 enlisted/non-rated, 10 gunners, 116 bay personnel, 48 BA marines

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Large)
    1 Naval C3
220 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                        Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                  Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (216 Heat)
8 Capital Missile Launcher (AR10 Launcher)  160  16(160) 16(160) 16(160) 16(160)  AR10       
    AR10 Barracuda Ammo (80 shots)
    AR10 Peacemaker Ammo (16 shots)
8 Laser AMS                                 56   2(24)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
FRS/FLS (141 Heat)
1 Naval Laser 55                            85   6(55)   6(55)   6(55)    6(55)   Capital Laser
8 Laser AMS                                 56   2(24)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
RBS/LBS (112 Heat)
16 Laser AMS                                112  5(48)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
ARS/ALS (56 Heat)
8 Laser AMS                                 56   2(24)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
Aft (56 Heat)
8 Laser AMS                                 56   2(24)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         



Note: I tried very hard to make this using the Subcap core rules. But in that stripped down version (using Piranha launchers and SCL/1s) I was still several hundred tons short before adding things like fuel and cargo.
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Vehrec on 23 June 2022, 18:13:31
Okay, there have been some implied tech changes in my recent story "Self Contained Modular Robot".

also some changes based on who is approving the budgets, and how big they get to be.

This opens up an idea.

While the era is 3053-55, the tech available can come right out of Jihad or post-Jihad, but it has to be Inner Sphere.

You may also dip into 'obsolete' tech for this.

Here's the needs:

Smallest hull you can cram the following:

Stealth/ECM
Warship C3
twelve fighters
four smallcraft
eight Capital missile tubes
One capital, or two sub-capital energy weapons
AMS/LAMS
A Jump Core
a 4/6 movement curve.
1 platoon of battlearmor/infantry with boarding gear.
Black Box comms

How small can you go? how cheap can you make it?

The role is the same as the U-Boats in WW1 or WW2.

good luck.

Cruiser rules or Unrestricted Submarine Warfare?  If the former, you've only provided a pittance of the prize crews that will be needed on a good raiding mission.  Is the emphasis on smallness or cheapness, because if it's smallness, we can go subcompact warship nonsense.  How, exactly, are we supposed to handle stealth/ECM, other than sticking a single Guardian ECM on our design?

Why can't most of this be done by a standard assault dropship squadron and their ride?  Can't most commerce raiding be handled by standard jumpships with specialized parasite craft at lower cost than dedicated warships?
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Daryk on 23 June 2022, 18:29:57
I'll give this a shot this weekend.  Those requirements are all very doable, and I'm sure I can find the minimum price point for them...  ^-^
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Cannonshop on 23 June 2022, 21:22:54
Cruiser rules or Unrestricted Submarine Warfare?  If the former, you've only provided a pittance of the prize crews that will be needed on a good raiding mission.  Is the emphasis on smallness or cheapness, because if it's smallness, we can go subcompact warship nonsense.  How, exactly, are we supposed to handle stealth/ECM, other than sticking a single Guardian ECM on our design?

Why can't most of this be done by a standard assault dropship squadron and their ride?  Can't most commerce raiding be handled by standard jumpships with specialized parasite craft at lower cost than dedicated warships?

Unrestricted Submarine Warfare.  It has to be SMALL to have a small emergence signature (*which a ride hauling droppers won't have), it has to be maneuverable and quick because if the engagement stretches out, it's likely to die.  The jump drive is needed to range wide enough to scout and find routes to prey on, the commo is needed so that groups on patrol can consolidate quickly on a target, then disperse.  The Infantry component is more or less just to handle 'sundry tasks' like boarding and sweeping a crippled enemy vessel for small, portable, useful things like codebooks, data-center cores, maps, and prisoners of high value.

Most targets won't survive in enough pieces to make boarding worth the trouble, but a capital warship that's had her keel broken might still have valuables aboard that can be retrieved, or valuable prisoners that can be recovered.

Hypothetically.

The design is supposed to be optimized for a particularly ugly sort of fighting made up of sneak attacks, intelligence gathering, and sudden fades.  The time it takes to recover a dropship doesn't allow for that sudden fade.

Your dropship flotilla is more of a defensive measure.  PWS don't play offense real well.
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: wolfgar on 24 June 2022, 05:48:16
This sounds like something that I can minimally adapt one of my existing DIRTT design warships for, will make something this evening
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Vehrec on 24 June 2022, 14:45:14
Unrestricted Submarine Warfare.  It has to be SMALL to have a small emergence signature (*which a ride hauling droppers won't have), it has to be maneuverable and quick because if the engagement stretches out, it's likely to die.  The jump drive is needed to range wide enough to scout and find routes to prey on, the commo is needed so that groups on patrol can consolidate quickly on a target, then disperse.  The Infantry component is more or less just to handle 'sundry tasks' like boarding and sweeping a crippled enemy vessel for small, portable, useful things like codebooks, data-center cores, maps, and prisoners of high value.

Most targets won't survive in enough pieces to make boarding worth the trouble, but a capital warship that's had her keel broken might still have valuables aboard that can be retrieved, or valuable prisoners that can be recovered.

Hypothetically.

The design is supposed to be optimized for a particularly ugly sort of fighting made up of sneak attacks, intelligence gathering, and sudden fades.  The time it takes to recover a dropship doesn't allow for that sudden fade.

Your dropship flotilla is more of a defensive measure.  PWS don't play offense real well.
I mean, PWS can play offense as well as a regiment of mechs and their transports can, maybe better.  A cheap jump drive is also a jump drive with not a lot of capacity for the 'sudden fade' other than running out system from pursuit while you charge the drive.  The 'most targets won't survive' thing has me thinking you want Kraken-Ts for your capital missiles, because very little else has the potency you need without nukes.  I'll spend 96 missiles on that, and give you a Proper platoon of BA marines, 3 squads of 8, with one command element for a full 28 to match the size of an IS infantry platoon.

Code: [Select]
Jackal Raider
Mass: 100,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3145
Mass: 100,000
Battle Value: 46,781
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-F
Cost: 4,189,574,000 C-bills

Fuel: 1,500 tons (15,000)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 4
Heat Sinks: 0
Structural Integrity: 52

Armor
    Nose: 20
    Fore Sides: 12/12
    Aft Sides: 12/12
    Aft: 20

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (12)            6 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (4)         2 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (6656.0 tons)     1 Door   

Ammunition:
    768 rounds of Anti-Missile System [IS] ammunition (8 tons),
    96 rounds of Kraken (Tele-Operated) ammunition (200 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 1 (100 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  13 officers, 52 enlisted/non-rated, 12 gunners, 44 bay personnel, 28 BA marines

Notes: Equipped with
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Small)
    1 Naval C3
73 tons of standard aerospace armor.

Weapons:                                        Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                  Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (408 Heat)
7 Tele-operated Missile (Kraken T)          350  70(700) 70(700) 70(700) 70(700)  Tele-Operated Capital Missile
    Kraken (Tele-Operated) Ammo (84 shots)
1 Tele-operated Missile (Kraken T)          50   10(100) 10(100) 10(100) 10(100)  Tele-Operated Capital Missile
    Kraken (Tele-Operated) Ammo (12 shots)
8 Anti-Missile System                        8   2(24)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (1152 shots)
FRS/FLS (56 Heat)
2 Sub-Capital Laser (SCL/1)                 48   2(20)   2(20)   2(20)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
8 Anti-Missile System                        8   2(24)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (1152 shots)
RBS/LBS (8 Heat)
8 Anti-Missile System                        8   2(24)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (1152 shots)
ARS/ALS (8 Heat)
8 Anti-Missile System                        8   2(24)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (1152 shots)
Aft (8 Heat)
8 Anti-Missile System                        8   2(24)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (1152 shots)

Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Daryk on 24 June 2022, 16:39:37
Kowloon is anything but shy about using nukes...  ^-^
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Vehrec on 24 June 2022, 18:52:47
Well then they can fit an antiwarship nuclear bomb to their Kraken-Ts, or strip out all those fancy pen-aids and just bolt a Tzar Bomba onto the nosecone.

Of course, a small raider with a tiny emergence signature and lots of nukes is also an effective planet killer.  Honestly, I think prize rules is more interesting, and I might post a challenge thread for that.

I chose lighter armor for my design because this is supposed to be a U-boat analog-it gets hit, it dies.  It's a commerce raider, it should be beat-sticking jumpships until interstellar civilization collapses and billions starve to death, not doing anything else.
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: wolfgar on 24 June 2022, 19:40:31
Alright, took a stab at this and while it comes in a little heavier than the others so far, i think it will stand for itself.

Code: (Bone-class Corvette) [Select]
Corvette Bone Class
Mass: 150,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3080
Mass: 150,000
Battle Value: 28,756
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 10,199,052,712 C-bills

Fuel: 2,639 tons (13,195)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 5
Heat Sinks: 600 (1200)
Structural Integrity: 60

Armor
    Nose: 45
    Fore Sides: 43/43
    Aft Sides: 43/43
    Aft: 35

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Small Craft (4)         2 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Fighter (6)             3 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Fighter (6)             3 Doors   
    Bay 4:  Cargo (5000.0 tons)     1 Door   

Ammunition:
    160 rounds of White Shark ammunition (6,400 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 1
Grav Decks: 2 (95 m, 95 m)
Escape Pods: 15
Life Boats: 15
Crew:  20 officers, 78 enlisted/non-rated, 34 gunners, 44 bay personnel, 30 BA marines

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Satellite Imager [Infrared Imager]
    1 Satellite Imager [High-Resolution (Hi-Res) Imager]
    1 Satellite Imager [Look-Down Radar]
    1 Satellite Imager [Hyperspectral Imager]
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Large)
    1 Naval C3
    1 Communications Equipment (1 ton)
    2 MASH Equipment (1 theater)
180 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                      Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (956 Heat)
4 Naval PPC (Heavy)                       900  60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 60(600)  Capital PPC
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
FRS/FLS (42 Heat)
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
RBS/LBS (132 Heat)
6 Capital Missile Launcher (White Shark)  90   18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180)  Capital Missile
    White Shark Ammo (80 shots)
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
ARS/ALS (42 Heat)
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
Aft (70 Heat)
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
2 Laser AMS                               14    1(6)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         



As others have noted, there seems to be no space stealth other than making yourself a big hole in space, aka running silent/ and far out of the eliptic plane, or else hiding amongst the detrius of the outer system. That said, it has the full set of spy gear so to be able to see whats in system, and a lithium-fusion battery to be able to double jump if shit gets too hot. A quartet of Heavy Naval PPCs sit ventrally to fire forward at any target unlucky enough to be directly in its face, while six white shark launchers cover it midships. Laser Anti-missile systems cover every other aspect heavily. while two six-fighter bays can do a full launch in one go, as can the four battle armor loaded shuttles for boarding actions. One drop collar exists in case there is need to pull a dropship out with them.

Outside of special operations, the Bone-class Corvette is used to scout aggressively for the Andurien Free State Naval forces against both the Capellan Confederation and the Free World League Navy
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Daryk on 25 June 2022, 05:02:26
I think I did my math right:
Code: [Select]
Sampan Mk V
Tonnage: 100,000
Thrust: 4/6
Fuel: 2,000 tons (205 burn days)
SI: 95
190 tons of armor
K-F Drive: 15 LY with an L-F Battery
Crew (100 total): 14 officers, CMC, Ship's Secretary, 84 other crew
Marine Detachment (50 total): 28 Marines, 11 BA Marines, 3 Officers (1 BA), 5 Medics (PA and 4 Corpsmen), 3 BA Techs (AsTechs drawn from troops)
Air Wing (150 total): 6 staff (CAG, DCAG, CMC, Ops, MO, Paddles), 12 ASF Pilots, 8 SC Pilots, 12 Air Crew, 16 Techs, 96 AsTechs
12 ASFs, 4 Small Craft (recommend 1 Signals (cheapest way to mount a Small NCSS), 1 COD, 2 Boarding Craft)
Weapons:
1 NL/45
8 AR-10 Launchers with 3,200 tons of magazine space
16 Laser AMS (dual mounts in each arc)
24 Medium Pulse Lasers (triple mounts in each arc)
6 Large Pulse Lasers
6 ER PPCs
Naval C3 System
2 extra tons of Communications Equipment (for 7 total)
Hyperspectral Imager
5 "infantry" bays for extra personnel
3 BA bays (IS)
MASH (1 operating theater)
"Field Kitchen" (Kowloonese LOVE their cooks!)
600 tons of dedicated consumable storage (400 crew days)
350 tons of general cargo (usually more food, always equipment for harvesting water from asteroids)
Total long term quarters for 300 plus 216 "bay quality" racks for rescued personnel/prisoners; life support and Life Boats for all (74)
3,545,372,000 total cost if I've done my math right (doesn't include the ASF or SC)

If you want the crew broken down into Departments and Divisions (along with the CAG Staff), just let me know.  Bumping up the size of the Air Wing REALLY ballooned the embarked personnel.
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Vehrec on 25 June 2022, 07:12:31
So a 15 light year 'primitive' jump core, with a LF battery?  And only 400 ish tons of spare parts?  The first two seem uh, counterintuitive to mash together, would that primitive core even be compatible with LF batteries? (I know that Sampans dabble in Illegal rules, but I see no reason to encourage that here.)  The last one though looks deadly.  If you have any major breakdowns on a raiding mission in your jump drive, you need to scream for a milk cow to come and get you immediately on your black box.  Which might well alert the BBDF forces of your enemy-you might be broadcasting encrypted, but they can still send a proper hunter-killer destroyer to sweep you up before a repair ship can rendezvous.  Your on station time is going to be limited by repair parts instead of crew supplies or fuel.
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Daryk on 25 June 2022, 07:20:31
I could shave a few hundred more tons out of the missile launchers by picking a size instead of sticking with AR-10s for flexibility.  Or maybe drop the magazine size a bit.  As I said, the thing that really got it was doubling the Air Wing.

As far as LF Batteries and Primitive KF cores, I don't see anything in IO that prohibits that.  Cost was the main driver here.
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Vehrec on 25 June 2022, 07:47:51
I could shave a few hundred more tons out of the missile launchers by picking a size instead of sticking with AR-10s for flexibility.  Or maybe drop the magazine size a bit.  As I said, the thing that really got it was doubling the Air Wing.

As far as LF Batteries and Primitive KF cores, I don't see anything in IO that prohibits that.  Cost was the main driver here.

I think your 95 SI is a bigger source of weight than the 900 tons from doubling the air-wing.  I know that it's not the done thing to build a ship with less than very high armor and SI is the key to that, but

I'd certainly simulate such a jump system having a rather high failure rate-I would expect about as many missions to be aborted as were by the early kerosene powered U-boats.  I don't have IO myself to check your work though.
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Daryk on 25 June 2022, 08:15:58
I was working from an earlier Sampan I did... I suppose I should switch to a real WarShip jump core.  That will get a few thousand tons back.  It'll cost a LOT more though...
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Cannonshop on 25 June 2022, 08:27:38
I was working from an earlier Sampan I did... I suppose I should switch to a real WarShip jump core.  That will get a few thousand tons back.  It'll cost a LOT more though...

remember, Daryk, first post: The budget is significantly higher than typical Ngoverse.
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Daryk on 25 June 2022, 08:28:53
Yep... 6,881,672,000 with a compact core.  Of course I bumped the SI back up to 100 and switched to Lamellor Ferro-Carbide too, but that was decimal dust compared to the core.  That leaves 4,590 tons for general cargo.  I should probably sink the odd 90 tons into bumping up the officer quarters beyond just the CO and XO.
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Daryk on 26 June 2022, 08:19:52
Ok, I did some more tweaking:
1) Upgraded all the Crew Quarters from Steerage, and provided enough "Officer" quarters for the entire wardroom, Air Wing and Master Chiefs.
2) Bumped fuel bunkerage up to 2,750 tons (281 Burn-Days at 1G).
3) This leaves 3,100 tons for general cargo.  I figure 100 tons of it is asteroid harvesting gear, leaving 3% for spares and other stuff.
4) Overall cost is now 6,889,472,000.

I'm thinking the next Mark might get a Grav Deck...

Code: [Select]
With the math this time:
Sampan Mark VI    Tons
Tonnage 100,000.0
Thrust 24,000.0 4/6
Fuel   2,750.0 281.4738997 Burn Days at 1G
Pumps      55.0
SI 10,000.0 100 SI
KF Drive (Compact Core) 45,250.0 Integrity: 4
Lithium-Fusion Battery   1,000.0
Sail      35.0 Integrity: 3
Controls     250.0
Base Crew Quarters     469.0 7 each 65 + 2 Extra Crew
Double Heat Sinks      86.0 264 Free, 700 Total Heat Capacity (676 burden if everything fires once)
Armor     200.0 280 points of Lamellor Ferro-Carbide (+10 extra points per facing from SI)
NL/45     900.0 1 900 Nose 70 heat
AR-10 Launchers   2,000.0 8 250 Dual mounts in FR/Nose/FL, singles in AR/AL; up to 50 heat each
Laser AMS      24.0 16 1.5 Dual mounts in all arcs; 7 heat per firing
Medium Pulse Lasers      48.0 24 2 Triple mounts in all arcs; 4 heat each
Large Pulse Lasers      42.0 6 7 Single mounts; 10 heat each
ER PPCs      42.0 6 7 Single mounts; 15 heat each
Communications Equipment      2.0 2 1 2 additional crew
Naval C3   1,000.0 1 No crew requirement?
Hyperspectral Imager       7.5 1 7.5 Nose
Small Craft Cubicles     800.0 4 200 5 racks each
ASF Cubicles   1,800.0 12 150 2 racks each
Doors       0.0 0 9 2 Small Craft, 6 ASF, 1 Cargo
Infantry Bay (Foot)      10.0 5 2 30 racks each
AsTech Bays      15.0 5 3 30 racks each
BA Bays      24.0 8 3 6 racks each (No idea why)
MASH       3.5 3.5 1 1 Operating Theater
"Field Kitchen"       3.0 3 1 3 additional crew
Gunners     105.0 7 15 Long Term Quarters
RTOs     105.0 7 15 Long Term Quarters
CAG Staff      42.0 7 6 Long Term Quarters
Bay Crew     336.0 7 48 Long Term Quarters
AsTechs     672.0 7 96 Long Term Quarters
Marines     210.0 7 30 Long Term Quarters
Armored Marines      84.0 7 12 Long Term Quarters
BA Techs       21.0 7 3 Long Term Quarters
Medical Team      35.0 7 5 Long Term Quarters
Cooks      21.0 7 3 Long Term Quarters
Officer/Chief Upgrades     135.0 3 45 10 tons vice 7 for Crew Quarters
Life Boats     518.0 7 74 7 PAX per Lifeboat
Missle Magazines   3,200.0 100 32 1 White Shark/2 Barracudas per 100 tons (400 in each magazine)
Consumables     600.0 1.5 400 Crew Days (1 Crew Day = 300 Man Days = 1.5 tons)
Cargo   3,100.0 Usually more food, always equipment for harvesting water from asteroids

And Costs:
Code: [Select]
Costs
Controls
Bridge     1,200,000
Computer       200,000
Life Support     2,580,000 (for 516 PAX; only 300 are normally embarked)
Sensors        80,000
Fire Control Computer       100,000
Gunnery Control Systems        80,000
Structure    10,000,000
Drive Unit     2,000,000
Engine    24,000,000
Engine Control Unit         1,000
K-F Drive
Drive Coil    60,000,000
Initiator    25,000,000
Controller    50,000,000
Liquid He Tankage       200,000
Sail     1,750,000
Charging System       500,000
LF Battery 1,924,300,000 (a x15 multiplier means this component is x14 the sum of the rest)
K-F Support Systems 1,200,000,000
Attitude Thrusters        25,000
Fuel Tank       550,000
Armor (LFC)    20,000,000
Double Heat Sinks         4,200,000
Crew Quarters     4,500,000
Officer Quarters       675,000 Upgrade cost
Lifeboats       370,000
ASF Cubicles       240,000
Small Craft Cubicles        80,000
Infantry Bays       375,000
BA Bays       360,000
NL/45       850,000
AR-10s     2,000,000
Laser AMS     3,600,000
Medium Pulse Lasers     1,440,000
Large Pulse Lasers     1,050,000
ER PPCs     1,800,000
MASH Core Unit        35,000
Field Kitchen        25,000
Naval C3   100,000,000
2 Tons Comms Equipment        20,000
Hyperspectral Imager       550,000
Sub Total 3,444,736,000
Final Cost 6,889,472,000
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Andras on 26 June 2022, 13:36:08
85kt, quad SCL1s for range, AR10s with KW and Barracudas, 32 BA and 2 platoons of normal infantry (or prize crews)- edited ammo load, fuel and cargo. Added a tertiary cargo bay the size needed for a LF battery for possible retrofit.

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: CEC CTR85 Cutter
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $5,324,640,884.00
Magazine Cost: $928,000.00
BV2: 15,299

Mass: 85,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-Carbide
Armament:
32 AMS (IS)
20 Laser Large Pulse (IS)
16 Subcapital Laser 1
8 Capital Launcher AR-10

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 20,400.00
Thrust
Safe: 4
Maximum: 6
Controls: 213.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (4 Integrity) 38,463.00
Jump Sail: (3 Integrity) 35.00
Structural Integrity: 80 6,800.00
Total Heat Sinks: 308(616) Double 62.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 28500 points 2,907.00
Fire Control Computers: 0.00
Armor: 239 pts Lamellor Ferro-Carbide 136.00
Fore: 40
Fore-Left/Right: 40/40
Aft-Left/Right: 40/40
Aft: 39

Dropship Capacity: 1 1,000.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 1 50.00
Life Boats: 24 168.00
Fighters: 12
Small Craft: 4
Cargo: 1710t
Cargo:850t
Battlearmor(4): 8 bays
Infantry (28): 2 bays


Crew And Passengers:
18 Officers in 2nd Class Quarters 126.00
44 Crew in Steerage Quarters 220.00
40 Gunners and Others in Steerage Quarters 200.00
190 Bay Personnel 0.00

# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
8 AMS (IS) Nose 8 24 (2.4-C) PDS 4.00
8 AMS (IS) RBS 8 24 (2.4-C) PDS 4.00
8 AMS (IS) LBS 8 24 (2.4-C) PDS 4.00
8 AMS (IS) Aft 8 24 (2.4-C) PDS 4.00
5 Laser Large Pulse (IS) Nose 50 45 (4.5-C) Medium 35.00
5 Laser Large Pulse (IS) RBS 50 45 (4.5-C) Medium 35.00
5 Laser Large Pulse (IS) LBS 50 45 (4.5-C) Medium 35.00
5 Laser Large Pulse (IS) Aft 50 45 (4.5-C) Medium 35.00
4 Subcapital Laser 1 Nose 96 40 (4-C) Long-C 600.00
4 Subcapital Laser 1 RBS 96 40 (4-C) Long-C 600.00
4 Subcapital Laser 1 LBS 96 40 (4-C) Long-C 600.00
4 Subcapital Laser 1 Aft 96 40 (4-C) Long-C 600.00
2 Capital Launcher AR-10 FR Extreme-C 500.00
2 Capital Launcher AR-10 FL Extreme-C 500.00
2 Capital Launcher AR-10 AR Extreme-C 500.00
2 Capital Launcher AR-10 AL Extreme-C 500.00

Ammo Rounds Mass
AMS (IS) Ammo 1632 136.00
Capital Launcher Barracuda Ammo 56 1,680.00
Capital Launcher Killer Whale Ammo 24 1,200.00

Equipment Mass
Naval C3 850.00
NCSS Large 500.00

edited ammo split since it wasn't in multiples of 8.
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Daryk on 26 June 2022, 13:41:17
That's a few more Sub-Caps than the OP asked for...  :)
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Vehrec on 27 June 2022, 18:15:33
Okay, I'm committed to the Pocket Warship life.  I'm just gonna ignore 3 or 4/11ths of the requirements.  I'm gonna make a dropship that does the fighty bits just as well as any of these warships.  Maybe better once you take cost into account.  You can buy a Star Lord and six of these for a billion C-bills and change less than that 85k ton 'Cutter' up there, and the armor on each one's not that much lower.  Or buy two invaders to go with six of them, and spread out a bit more.  84 billion C-bills can buy 33 invaders and 99 of these, 12 Sampans, or 20 of my own Jackals.  Yes, they lack the naval com-gear needed for detection at long range but they are much more numerous.  And their primary prey aren't exactly super-mobile.  The sudden arrival of a squadron of these should be cause for quite a lot of screaming and panic, while the enemy admiralty has quite a lot of screaming and panic to react to.

Code: [Select]
Privateer Dropship
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 14,400 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Introduced: 3145
Mass: 14,400
Battle Value: 20,841
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-E
Cost: 686,142,632 C-bills

Fuel: 98.5 tons (2,955)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Heat Sinks: 198 (396)
Structural Integrity: 21

Armor
    Nose: 339
    Sides: 285/285
    Aft: 232

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (12)            4 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (4)         2 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (598.0 tons)      1 Door   

Ammunition:
    80 rounds of Killer Whale ammunition (4000 tons)

Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  8 officers, 16 gunners, 44 bay personnel, 28 BA marines

Notes: Mounts 75.5 tons of standard aerospace armor.

Weapons:                                       Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                 Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV     ERV   Class       
Nose (242 Heat)
8 Capital Missile Launcher (Killer Whale)  160  32(320) 32(320) 32(320) 32(320)Capital Missile
    Killer Whale Ammo (80 shots)
6 Laser AMS                                42   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
4 Large Pulse Laser                        40   4(36)   4(36)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
RS/LS Fwd (130 Heat)
2 Sub-Capital Laser (SCL/1)                48   2(20)   2(20)   2(20)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
6 Laser AMS                                42   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
4 Large Pulse Laser                        40   4(36)   4(36)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
RS/LS Aft (82 Heat)
6 Laser AMS                                42   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
4 Large Pulse Laser                        40   4(36)   4(36)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
Aft (82 Heat)
6 Laser AMS                                42   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
4 Large Pulse Laser                        40   4(36)   4(36)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser

Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Daryk on 27 June 2022, 18:32:49
The enemy Admiralty simply priortizes targeting the Invaders/Star Lords or whatever.  Without those, who cares about the PWS?
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Vehrec on 27 June 2022, 20:03:07
Invaders are the most common type of Jumpship-if you lose one and aren't dead, just steal the next one that shows up in the system.  This also presumes that the enemy admiralty has the resources to hunt jumpships without losing it's patrol craft to the PWS that are accompanying them.  Because again, I can field a flotilla of these against a minimalist escort frigate.  If 3/4ths of the missiles miss out of a salvo of 24, that's still six killer whales getting into terminal attack range.
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Daryk on 27 June 2022, 20:07:57
And you're stranding a number of PWS for a single attacking WarShip (assuming, of course, the WarShip sticks around long enough for the PWS to kill it... L-F Batteries FTW!).
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Cannonshop on 27 June 2022, 20:54:31
Okay, I'm committed to the Pocket Warship life.  I'm just gonna ignore 3 or 4/11ths of the requirements.  I'm gonna make a dropship that does the fighty bits just as well as any of these warships.  Maybe better once you take cost into account.  You can buy a Star Lord and six of these for a billion C-bills and change less than that 85k ton 'Cutter' up there, and the armor on each one's not that much lower.  Or buy two invaders to go with six of them, and spread out a bit more.  84 billion C-bills can buy 33 invaders and 99 of these, 12 Sampans, or 20 of my own Jackals.  Yes, they lack the naval com-gear needed for detection at long range but they are much more numerous.  And their primary prey aren't exactly super-mobile.  The sudden arrival of a squadron of these should be cause for quite a lot of screaming and panic, while the enemy admiralty has quite a lot of screaming and panic to react to.

Code: [Select]
Privateer Dropship
Type: Military Spheriod
Mass: 14,400 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Introduced: 3145
Mass: 14,400
Battle Value: 20,841
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-E
Cost: 686,142,632 C-bills

Fuel: 98.5 tons (2,955)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Heat Sinks: 198 (396)
Structural Integrity: 21

Armor
    Nose: 339
    Sides: 285/285
    Aft: 232

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Fighter (12)            4 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (4)         2 Doors   
    Bay 3:  Cargo (598.0 tons)      1 Door   

Ammunition:
    80 rounds of Killer Whale ammunition (4000 tons)

Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 0
Crew:  8 officers, 16 gunners, 44 bay personnel, 28 BA marines

Notes: Mounts 75.5 tons of standard aerospace armor.

Weapons:                                       Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                 Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV     ERV   Class       
Nose (242 Heat)
8 Capital Missile Launcher (Killer Whale)  160  32(320) 32(320) 32(320) 32(320)Capital Missile
    Killer Whale Ammo (80 shots)
6 Laser AMS                                42   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
4 Large Pulse Laser                        40   4(36)   4(36)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
RS/LS Fwd (130 Heat)
2 Sub-Capital Laser (SCL/1)                48   2(20)   2(20)   2(20)    0(0)  Sub-Capital Laser
6 Laser AMS                                42   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
4 Large Pulse Laser                        40   4(36)   4(36)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
RS/LS Aft (82 Heat)
6 Laser AMS                                42   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
4 Large Pulse Laser                        40   4(36)   4(36)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser
Aft (82 Heat)
6 Laser AMS                                42   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)    0(0)  AMS         
4 Large Pulse Laser                        40   4(36)   4(36)    0(0)    0(0)  Pulse Laser


You're ignoring a larger percentage than that.  You've built a nice escort dropship for an invasion force, and it will do well in static engagements.

which is not what was requested.  LOTS of things (including already existing things) can do the same job, and some of them do it better/cheaper.

Let's take your whole scenario here;  You've got your wall 'o' Dropships, and you pop into a star system.  Depending on where the other guy is, they're going to have a random value of 'right nearby' (which is good, it fits your scenario) to "Over there on the Nadir point while you're emerging at the zenith" which is a two-weeks of them knowing the course and vector of your dropships and having PLENTY of time to charge their drives for the next jump, leaving before your horde o' dropships arrives.

There are going to be alternate routes the enemy can use, and it won't even delay them much to shift the next convoy to one of those, but your dropships still have to get back to a jump point and rendezvous with their carrier, and you don't own the enemy's commo, so you don't know where those alternate routes ARE.

And you don't have the ability to go looking.  All your backup has to ride on the same KF spine, so you can't position them (or use them to position ftl commo-capable surveillance sats) and wait, you need to know where the other guy's jumpships are routing BEFORE you can arrive.

You can't coordinate a broad search pattern, see?  PWS are limited to known routes.  They make fine defensive units for a convoy, but they don't make good commerce raiders-they can't spread out, then consolidate quickly when they get a 'hit' or one of them spots an enemy transport convoy at 2 AU distance on the telescope.

"Strategy determines equipment-not all equipment works with all strategies."

Your dropper design is fine for defending a convoy, or invasion force, or counter-invasion force.  It's not fit to the purpose of the challenge.  There's a reason I specified building them 'small' then loading them with expensive gear and required a jump-drive be integral-it's to carry out a specific strategic task in the military context, while allowing them to function in a civilian context when not in wartime.

PWS really don't have a role in peacetime.  They don't have the ability to carry out survey and surveillance, establish patrol of routes outside their home system, nor fast mobility within their home system for things like search and rescue, commerce enforcement, law enforcement, or even military exercises.  They're confined to newtonian movement and newtonian speeds, making them only 'stealthy' in a crowded environment and only then, if the mark is unaware of the concept and not actively looking.

Corvettes, Sloops, Frigates, whatever you want to call them, exist to operate outside of harbors.  In peacetime, (in the olden days of sailing ships) they were the eyes of the fleet, often ranging beyond established routes.  U-Boat warfare in the world wars focused on ranging outside of home waters to intercept-and they ran in packs because that way, they could share intelligence and gather to hit an enemy convoy where they weren't expecting to be hit, sometimes penetrating into enemy waters directly.

A PWS force really can't do that.  They aren't mobile enough and the needs of their operation means they aren't subtle tools outside of a crowded port location (Which is where the WoB used them. inside systems that already have heavy traffic, it's why they based them on the Mule initially.)

Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: idea weenie on 27 June 2022, 22:59:34
Onboard FTL means your ship's crew can count on being able to go home if they get separated, vs needing to break out the 'Robinson Crusoe in Space' package?
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Cannonshop on 27 June 2022, 23:14:46
Onboard FTL means your ship's crew can count on being able to go home if they get separated, vs needing to break out the 'Robinson Crusoe in Space' package?

to an extent.  Onboard FTL really means that you don't have to hope your counterparts made it to your exit ahead of you, while you've got the reaction force of the other side chasing you across all the non-jump-point majority of the inner system.

Basically you can look at the situation as being one where you don't have to hope your getaway driver is actually parked where he said he would be while you've got the fuzz on your ass.

Oh, and you don't have to worry about what happens if the fuzz chasing you happen to shoot at the very-vulnerable-very-easy-target of a standard jumpship waiting at your exit point (which is a hell of a lot easier shot than hitting you while you're manuevering.)  The Standard jumpship doesn't have the ability to evade, after all, and it's a fairly prominent target with that big, reflective, standard jumpsail unfurled, and the only 'evasion' it can do, is jumping out of the system and leaving you there.

which can be a 'robinson crusoe' situation if you're fortunate, or 'hunted to the ground and killed' situation if you're not-so-fortunate.
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Vehrec on 28 June 2022, 08:38:26
You're ignoring a larger percentage than that.  You've built a nice escort dropship for an invasion force, and it will do well in static engagements.

which is not what was requested.  LOTS of things (including already existing things) can do the same job, and some of them do it better/cheaper.

Let's take your whole scenario here;  You've got your wall 'o' Dropships, and you pop into a star system.  Depending on where the other guy is, they're going to have a random value of 'right nearby' (which is good, it fits your scenario) to "Over there on the Nadir point while you're emerging at the zenith" which is a two-weeks of them knowing the course and vector of your dropships and having PLENTY of time to charge their drives for the next jump, leaving before your horde o' dropships arrives.

There are going to be alternate routes the enemy can use, and it won't even delay them much to shift the next convoy to one of those, but your dropships still have to get back to a jump point and rendezvous with their carrier, and you don't own the enemy's commo, so you don't know where those alternate routes ARE.

And you don't have the ability to go looking.  All your backup has to ride on the same KF spine, so you can't position them (or use them to position ftl commo-capable surveillance sats) and wait, you need to know where the other guy's jumpships are routing BEFORE you can arrive.

You can't coordinate a broad search pattern, see?  PWS are limited to known routes.  They make fine defensive units for a convoy, but they don't make good commerce raiders-they can't spread out, then consolidate quickly when they get a 'hit' or one of them spots an enemy transport convoy at 2 AU distance on the telescope.

"Strategy determines equipment-not all equipment works with all strategies."

Your dropper design is fine for defending a convoy, or invasion force, or counter-invasion force.  It's not fit to the purpose of the challenge.  There's a reason I specified building them 'small' then loading them with expensive gear and required a jump-drive be integral-it's to carry out a specific strategic task in the military context, while allowing them to function in a civilian context when not in wartime.

PWS really don't have a role in peacetime.  They don't have the ability to carry out survey and surveillance, establish patrol of routes outside their home system, nor fast mobility within their home system for things like search and rescue, commerce enforcement, law enforcement, or even military exercises.  They're confined to newtonian movement and newtonian speeds, making them only 'stealthy' in a crowded environment and only then, if the mark is unaware of the concept and not actively looking.

Corvettes, Sloops, Frigates, whatever you want to call them, exist to operate outside of harbors.  In peacetime, (in the olden days of sailing ships) they were the eyes of the fleet, often ranging beyond established routes.  U-Boat warfare in the world wars focused on ranging outside of home waters to intercept-and they ran in packs because that way, they could share intelligence and gather to hit an enemy convoy where they weren't expecting to be hit, sometimes penetrating into enemy waters directly.

A PWS force really can't do that.  They aren't mobile enough and the needs of their operation means they aren't subtle tools outside of a crowded port location (Which is where the WoB used them. inside systems that already have heavy traffic, it's why they based them on the Mule initially.)
  I'm not going to go hunting for ships in transit, I'm going to spawn camp and blockade worlds with F-ratings on their agriculture and industrial precursors until they starve.  I'm not going for 'sublte tool' I'm going for ripping the arteries of trade out of the enemy, that's what unrestricted commerce warfare is all about. Dropships actually have superior strategic mobility, if you aren't fussed about keeping the same jumpship.  You can't count on what you see two-weeks trip away still being there when your buddies converge either, so the idea of bringing together a wolfpack is slightly ridiculous.  The wolves have to either travel together as a unit, or they need to wait at least 1 week to recharge their jump drives and coordinate whose target to actually pursue.  And when they converge, their targets have likely got a full charge or already moved on.  Meanwhile, in theory, dropships can seize a jumpship at the nadir point, use it's charge to jump to the zenith point, and seize a third jumpship there to keep moving on.

And again, I cannot keep beating this dead horse enough, commerce warfare is a numbers game.  You do better at it the more hunters and beaters and such you have.  It divides the attention of those hunting your U-boat analogs, and it gives you more claws to do the ripping with.  Space is not an ocean in battletech, you can't have a map 20 feet across where the useful identification range of one ship is a push-pin's head.  Every jump point is a strait, and it is trivially easy to set up and tear down a blockade of one of these straits.  But to raid usefully, you need to blockade a lot of points simultaneously.  If we assume that each raider bags 1 Jumpship a week, and they spend six months raiding with no losses, but a force of PWS loses a squadron a week while a warship raider force loses one raider per week to accidentally jumping under the guns of an enemy Cruiser, then if our raiders are totally wiped out after six months, they've destroyed 351 jumpships.  But if the PWS have just ten more squadrons than our 26 week supply of raiders, then they can have bagged 661 in the same period.  Ten more hunters at the start nearly doubles the effective total of kills.  Now, there's like what twenty thousand jumpships in the inner sphere?  Okay, so you need more than 36 hunter groups to make a serious dent in those numbers. Maybe not that many more, but I certainly wouldn't attempt this with less.  But this is a major naval building program,

There is no reason to ever go into the non-jump point majority of the system.  The jump ships are either at the jump point or they aren't.  If they aren't proceed to the next target system, don't stop and poke around.  You sit at the jump point for a week and ambush anyone coming through, then move to another system, kill anyone at the jump point, and spend another week as an ambush predator.  Rinse, repeat, always keep moving.  That's how you do commerce warfare.  What profit the enemy are the twenty Mules full of cargo fleeing you without ships to carry them away?  Heck, why are we destroying these ships that take years to build instead of bringing along enough prize crews to fly them back home?  Again, the problem of 'unrestricted' commerce warfare in a setting where most transports strike their colors on seeing anything with a large laser rears it's head.  It's more profitable to do restricted commerce warfare and just steal every jumpship you can instead of blowing them up.  But you don't want to capture them you want to blow stuff up.

So no, I'm not designing for you 'U-boat in space' role, but I do think that in the setting, I've come up with something just as if not more effective.  You may argue that I've not met your ideal, but I think your ideal is flawed and focuses on the wrong things.
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Wereling on 28 June 2022, 15:23:23
So, once again I don't really know what I'm doing.

As a basis I picked the lightest SLDF unit I think might have specs found in the Helm memory core, the Tracker. I figure if nothing else this would give the Lyran part of the FedCom a starting point to make a long-range raider. I don't see anything in MML for a black box, so I substituted a ground-mobile HPG. I left the naval laser alone, given that it's more than enough to savage any dropship this thing is likely to come across, and then standardized on White Shark launchers because I figure nukes are good enough at any size for the kind of fighting this thing is going to be doing.

I don't really know how stealth is handled at capital scale, to be honest. I would appreciate some pointers on that.

Code: [Select]
Jägerin Raider
Mass: 120,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3080
Mass: 120,000
Battle Value: 15,248
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 15,651,808,400 C-bills

Fuel: 2,800 tons (14,000)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 5
Heat Sinks: 285 (570)
Structural Integrity: 36

Armor
    Nose: 18
    Fore Sides: 15/15
    Aft Sides: 15/15
    Aft: 14

Cargo
    Bay 1:  BattleArmor (IS) (4)    1 Door   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (4)         1 Door   
    Bay 3:  Fighter (12)            3 Doors   
    Bay 4:  Cargo (16913.0 tons)    1 Door   

Ammunition:
    80 rounds of White Shark ammunition (3,200 tons),
    16 rounds of Santa Anna ammunition (640 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 1 (75 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 28
Crew:  17 officers, 65 enlisted/non-rated, 17 gunners, 68 bay personnel

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Large)
    1 Mobile Hyperpulse Generators (Ground-Mobile HPG)
    1 Naval C3
49 tons of lamellor ferro-carbide armor.

Weapons:                                      Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (156 Heat)
2 Capital Missile Launcher (White Shark)  30   6(60)   6(60)   6(60)    6(60)   Capital Missile
    Santa Anna Ammo (4 shots)
    White Shark Ammo (20 shots)
2 Large Pulse Laser                       20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)     0(0)   Pulse Laser
4 Laser AMS                               28   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
4 Small Pulse Laser                        8   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
1 Naval Laser 45                          70   5(45)   5(45)   5(45)    5(45)   Capital Laser
FRS/FLS (71 Heat)
1 Capital Missile Launcher (White Shark)  15   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)    3(30)   Capital Missile
    Santa Anna Ammo (2 shots)
    White Shark Ammo (10 shots)
2 Large Pulse Laser                       20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)     0(0)   Pulse Laser
4 Laser AMS                               28   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
4 Small Pulse Laser                        8   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
RBS/LBS (71 Heat)
1 Capital Missile Launcher (White Shark)  15   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)    3(30)   Capital Missile
    Santa Anna Ammo (2 shots)
    White Shark Ammo (10 shots)
2 Large Pulse Laser                       20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)     0(0)   Pulse Laser
4 Laser AMS                               28   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
4 Small Pulse Laser                        8   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
ARS/ALS (56 Heat)
2 Large Pulse Laser                       20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)     0(0)   Pulse Laser
4 Laser AMS                               28   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
4 Small Pulse Laser                        8   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
Aft (86 Heat)
2 Capital Missile Launcher (White Shark)  30   6(60)   6(60)   6(60)    6(60)   Capital Missile
    Santa Anna Ammo (4 shots)
    White Shark Ammo (20 shots)
2 Large Pulse Laser                       20   2(18)   2(18)    0(0)     0(0)   Pulse Laser
4 Laser AMS                               28   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
4 Small Pulse Laser                        8   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
   
Edit: Fixed with the correct SI and armor
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Wereling on 28 June 2022, 15:43:39
So, I completely forgot to fix the SI of my unit to match the Tracker, but I wanted to give a shot to a lower tech version. Here it is:

Code: [Select]
Jägerin (3052) Raider
Mass: 120,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3080
Mass: 120,000
Battle Value: 15,462
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 15,231,596,400 C-bills

Fuel: 2,800 tons (14,000)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 5
Heat Sinks: 285
Structural Integrity: 36

Armor
    Nose: 18
    Fore Sides: 15/15
    Aft Sides: 15/15
    Aft: 14

Cargo
    Bay 1:  BattleArmor (IS) (4)    1 Door   
    Bay 2:  Small Craft (4)         1 Door   
    Bay 3:  Fighter (12)            3 Doors   
    Bay 4:  Cargo (16704.0 tons)    1 Door   

Ammunition:
    768 rounds of Anti-Missile System [IS] ammunition (58 tons),
    80 rounds of White Shark ammunition (1,000 tons),
    16 rounds of Santa Anna ammunition (640 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 1 (75 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 28
Crew:  17 officers, 149 enlisted/non-rated, 17 gunners, 68 bay personnel

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Small)
    1 Mobile Hyperpulse Generators (Ground-Mobile HPG)
    1 Naval C3
86 tons of standard aerospace armor.

Weapons:                                       Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                 Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (124 Heat)
2 Capital Missile Launcher (White Shark)   30   6(60)   6(60)   6(60)    6(60)   Capital Missile
    Santa Anna Ammo (4 shots)
    White Shark Ammo (20 shots)
1 Naval Laser 45                           70   5(45)   5(45)   5(45)    5(45)   Capital Laser
4 Anti-Missile System                       4   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (96 shots)
2 Large Laser                              16   2(16)   2(16)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
4 Small Laser                               4   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
FRS/FLS (39 Heat)
1 Capital Missile Launcher (White Shark)   15   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)    3(30)   Capital Missile
    Santa Anna Ammo (2 shots)
    White Shark Ammo (10 shots)
4 Anti-Missile System                       4   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (96 shots)
2 Large Laser                              16   2(16)   2(16)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
4 Small Laser                               4   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
RBS/LBS (39 Heat)
1 Capital Missile Launcher (White Shark)   15   3(30)   3(30)   3(30)    3(30)   Capital Missile
    Santa Anna Ammo (2 shots)
    White Shark Ammo (10 shots)
4 Anti-Missile System                       4   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (96 shots)
2 Large Laser                              16   2(16)   2(16)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
4 Small Laser                               4   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
ARS/ALS (24 Heat)
4 Anti-Missile System                       4   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (144 shots)
2 Large Laser                              16   2(16)   2(16)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
4 Small Laser                               4   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
Aft (54 Heat)
2 Capital Missile Launcher (White Shark)   30   6(60)   6(60)   6(60)    6(60)   Capital Missile
    Santa Anna Ammo (4 shots)
    White Shark Ammo (20 shots)
4 Anti-Missile System                       4   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (144 shots)
2 Large Laser                              16   2(16)   2(16)    0(0)     0(0)   Laser       
4 Small Laser                               4   1(12)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Point Defense
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Daryk on 28 June 2022, 18:37:30
All Large Craft get significant ECM (or ECCM) capability for free.  Stealth is really down to just operations.

Vehrec: One thing that is constant in all Ngo-verse stories: pirate points are de rigeur.  Your plan could work if Zenith and Nadir were the only choices, but they aren't even in "normal" universes.  That's Cannonshop's point about mobility.
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: arcticwyrm245 on 28 June 2022, 21:48:47
Thought I might throw my hat into the ring with this one, its a modified version of a ship I was already working on. Then I thought, how do I Lyran this?

The Hussar was developed by a black horse candidate. HSDE(Helping kill Kerensky's Soldiers since XXXX) was an originally periphery based company that managed to open up branch offices in other states. Their offering was developed with the anticipation of engagement during both the prograde and retrograde burns. This being with the belief that despite all attempts at stealth, ships are not going to be able to be perfectly engage an unaware target. Thus the need for significant secondary support in the form of Anti-ASF batteries and other protective measures. Thanks to the "Cooperation" negotiated with the Draconis Combine, Screen Launchers were installed at the compass cardinal directions while additional ECM in the form of creatively placed Comms equipment to aid with additional raw signal power/coverage during EW operations. With generous fuel bunkerage and crew quarters, this is a vessel that can range far and wide.

Quote
Hussar (CS-Challenge) Raider
Mass: 100,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3100
Mass: 100,000
Battle Value: 35,025
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 7,532,202,000 C-bills

Fuel: 4,000 tons (40,000)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 4
Heat Sinks: 264 (528)
Structural Integrity: 50

Armor
    Nose: 23
    Fore Sides: 21/21
    Aft Sides: 21/21
    Aft: 23

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Small Craft (4)         2 Doors   
    Bay 2:  BattleArmor (IS) (9)    1 Door   
    Bay 3:  Fighter (12)            1 Door   
    Bay 4:  Cargo (2634.0 tons)     1 Door   

Ammunition:
    864 rounds of Gauss Rifle [IS] ammunition (108 tons),
    24 rounds of AR10 Killer Whale ammunition (1,200 tons),
    1,152 rounds of Anti-Missile System [IS] ammunition (96 tons),
    40 rounds of AR10 Barracuda ammunition (1,200 tons),
    32 rounds of AR10 White Shark ammunition (1,280 tons),
    160 rounds of Screen Launcher ammunition (1,600 tons),
    24 rounds of AR10 Peacemaker ammunition (1,200 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 2 (90 m, 90 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 40
Crew:  28 officers, 106 enlisted/non-rated, 30 gunners, 98 bay personnel      

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Large)
    1 Naval C3
    16 Space Mine Dispenser
    57 Communications Equipment (1 ton)
   100 tons of improved ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons:                                        Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                  Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (106 Heat)
6 Anti-Missile System                        6   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (144 shots)
4 Capital Missile Launcher (AR10 Launcher)  80   8(80)   8(80)   8(80)    8(80)   AR10       
    AR10 Barracuda Ammo (20 shots)
    AR10 Killer Whale Ammo (12 shots)
    AR10 Peacemaker Ammo (12 shots)
    AR10 White Shark Ammo (16 shots)
2 Screen Launcher                           20   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (40 shots)
FRS/FLS (108 Heat)
6 Anti-Missile System                        6   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (144 shots)
4 Sub-Capital Laser (SCL/1)                 96   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
6 Gauss Rifle                                6   9(90)   9(90)   9(90)     0(0)   AC         
    Gauss Rifle Ammo [IS] (144 shots)
RBS/LBS (32 Heat)
6 Anti-Missile System                        6   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (144 shots)
6 Gauss Rifle                                6   9(90)   9(90)   9(90)     0(0)   AC         
    Gauss Rifle Ammo [IS] (144 shots)
2 Screen Launcher                           20   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (40 shots)
ARS/ALS (12 Heat)
6 Anti-Missile System                        6   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (144 shots)
6 Gauss Rifle                                6   9(90)   9(90)   9(90)     0(0)   AC         
    Gauss Rifle Ammo [IS] (144 shots)
Aft (106 Heat)
6 Anti-Missile System                        6   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (144 shots)
4 Capital Missile Launcher (AR10 Launcher)  80   8(80)   8(80)   8(80)    8(80)   AR10       
    AR10 Barracuda Ammo (20 shots)
    AR10 Killer Whale Ammo (12 shots)
    AR10 Peacemaker Ammo (12 shots)
    AR10 White Shark Ammo (16 shots)
2 Screen Launcher                           20   3(30)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   Screen Launcher
    Screen Launcher Ammo (40 shots)
   

How HSDE acquired the Mako Corvette design specs and data is a mystery, however they are now offering a "Modernized" variant for consideration to the Federated Commonwealth and the Lyran Commonwealth in particular. The engine assembly was simplified by the expedient measure of reduction from three to two engine nacelles, freeing up space for more generous cargo capacity and fuel bunkerage. Meanwhile the weaponry was modified to fit with current production capabilities in the Commonwealth, easing supply chains while providing potent Anti-ASF capability for both itself and other ships in its wolfpack. What makes the Mako stand out from the competition is that it is a self supporting design, capable of enacting basic repairs to other raiders up to 200.000 tons otherwise unavailable without a shipyard. All for a measly 12% increase in cost. With a piece of Lyran history and pride that can be reclaimed once again, HSDE is offering generous discounts for any production licenses for production within the Commonwealth itself. (We don't talk about what may or may not be in that 9 ton capacity cubby hole, use of the term "Commonwealth" is clarified in the End User's Agreement. HSDE is a proud user of Blake and Blake LLP, Trusted Legal Service for all your Needs).

Quote
Mako (CS-Challlenge) Raider
Mass: 200,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Introduced: 3100
Mass: 200,000
Battle Value: 38,444
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 8,441,774,000 C-bills

Fuel: 12,000 tons (60,000)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 6
Heat Sinks: 600 (1200)
Structural Integrity: 50

Armor
    Nose: 35
    Fore Sides: 30/30
    Aft Sides: 30/30
    Aft: 35

Cargo
    Bay 1:  Small Craft ( 8 )         2 Doors   
    Bay 2:  Fighter (12)            3 Doors   
    Bay 3:  BattleArmor (IS) (12)   1 Door   
    Bay 4:  Cargo (6000.0 tons)     1 Door   
    Bay 5:  Reinforced Repair Facility (5,000)1 Door   
    Bay 6:  Cargo (5000.0 tons)     1 Door   
    Bay 7:  Cargo (9.0 tons)        0 Doors   

Ammunition:
    40 rounds of AR10 Killer Whale ammunition (2,000 tons),
    256 rounds of Gauss Rifle [IS] ammunition (36 tons),
    1,152 rounds of Anti-Missile System [IS] ammunition (8 tons),
    800 rounds of Light SCC ammunition (400 tons),
    40 rounds of AR10 Barracuda ammunition (1,200 tons),
    35 rounds of AR10 Peacemaker ammunition (1,750 tons)

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks: 2 (90 m, 90 m)
Escape Pods: 0
Life Boats: 50
Crew:  25 officers, 72 enlisted/non-rated, 51 gunners, 136 bay personnel, 40 passengers      

Notes: Equipped with
    lithium-fusion battery system
    1 Naval Comm-Scanner Suite (Large)
    1 Naval C3
   200 tons of improved ferro-aluminum armor.

Weapons:                                        Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat)                                  Heat  SRV     MRV     LRV      ERV    Class       
Nose (310 Heat)
6 Anti-Missile System                        6   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (144 shots)
4 Sub-Capital Laser (SCL/1)                 96   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
8 Capital Missile Launcher (AR10 Launcher)  160  16(160) 16(160) 16(160) 16(160)  AR10       
    AR10 Barracuda Ammo (40 shots)
    AR10 Killer Whale Ammo (40 shots)
    AR10 Peacemaker Ammo (35 shots)
4 Sub-Capital Cannon (Light)                48   8(80)   8(80)   8(80)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Cannon
    Light SCC Ammo (160 shots)
FRS/FLS (69 Heat)
5 ER Large Laser                            60   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)     0(0)   Laser       
3 Gauss Rifle                                3   5(45)   5(45)   5(45)     0(0)   AC         
    Gauss Rifle Ammo [IS] (64 shots)
6 Anti-Missile System                        6   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (144 shots)
RBS/LBS (249 Heat)
4 ER Large Laser                            48   3(32)   3(32)   3(32)     0(0)   Laser       
3 Gauss Rifle                                3   5(45)   5(45)   5(45)     0(0)   AC         
    Gauss Rifle Ammo [IS] (64 shots)
6 Anti-Missile System                        6   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (144 shots)
4 Sub-Capital Laser (SCL/1)                 96   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
8 Sub-Capital Cannon (Light)                96   16(160) 16(160) 16(160)   0(0)   Sub-Capital Cannon
    Light SCC Ammo (320 shots)
ARS/ALS (54 Heat)
4 ER Large Laser                            48   3(32)   3(32)   3(32)     0(0)   Laser       
6 Anti-Missile System                        6   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (144 shots)
Aft (102 Heat)
6 Anti-Missile System                        6   2(18)    0(0)    0(0)     0(0)   AMS         
    Anti-Missile System Ammo [IS] (144 shots)
4 Sub-Capital Laser (SCL/1)                 96   4(40)   4(40)   4(40)     0(0)   Sub-Capital Laser
   

Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Cannonshop on 28 June 2022, 22:30:26
  I'm not going to go hunting for ships in transit, I'm going to spawn camp and blockade worlds with F-ratings on their agriculture and industrial precursors until they starve.  I'm not going for 'sublte tool' I'm going for ripping the arteries of trade out of the enemy, that's what unrestricted commerce warfare is all about. Dropships actually have superior strategic mobility, if you aren't fussed about keeping the same jumpship.  You can't count on what you see two-weeks trip away still being there when your buddies converge either, so the idea of bringing together a wolfpack is slightly ridiculous.  The wolves have to either travel together as a unit, or they need to wait at least 1 week to recharge their jump drives and coordinate whose target to actually pursue.  And when they converge, their targets have likely got a full charge or already moved on.  Meanwhile, in theory, dropships can seize a jumpship at the nadir point, use it's charge to jump to the zenith point, and seize a third jumpship there to keep moving on.

And again, I cannot keep beating this dead horse enough, commerce warfare is a numbers game.  You do better at it the more hunters and beaters and such you have.  It divides the attention of those hunting your U-boat analogs, and it gives you more claws to do the ripping with.  Space is not an ocean in battletech, you can't have a map 20 feet across where the useful identification range of one ship is a push-pin's head.  Every jump point is a strait, and it is trivially easy to set up and tear down a blockade of one of these straits.  But to raid usefully, you need to blockade a lot of points simultaneously.  If we assume that each raider bags 1 Jumpship a week, and they spend six months raiding with no losses, but a force of PWS loses a squadron a week while a warship raider force loses one raider per week to accidentally jumping under the guns of an enemy Cruiser, then if our raiders are totally wiped out after six months, they've destroyed 351 jumpships.  But if the PWS have just ten more squadrons than our 26 week supply of raiders, then they can have bagged 661 in the same period.  Ten more hunters at the start nearly doubles the effective total of kills.  Now, there's like what twenty thousand jumpships in the inner sphere?  Okay, so you need more than 36 hunter groups to make a serious dent in those numbers. Maybe not that many more, but I certainly wouldn't attempt this with less.  But this is a major naval building program,

There is no reason to ever go into the non-jump point majority of the system.  The jump ships are either at the jump point or they aren't.  If they aren't proceed to the next target system, don't stop and poke around.  You sit at the jump point for a week and ambush anyone coming through, then move to another system, kill anyone at the jump point, and spend another week as an ambush predator.  Rinse, repeat, always keep moving.  That's how you do commerce warfare.  What profit the enemy are the twenty Mules full of cargo fleeing you without ships to carry them away?  Heck, why are we destroying these ships that take years to build instead of bringing along enough prize crews to fly them back home?  Again, the problem of 'unrestricted' commerce warfare in a setting where most transports strike their colors on seeing anything with a large laser rears it's head.  It's more profitable to do restricted commerce warfare and just steal every jumpship you can instead of blowing them up.  But you don't want to capture them you want to blow stuff up.

So no, I'm not designing for you 'U-boat in space' role, but I do think that in the setting, I've come up with something just as if not more effective.  You may argue that I've not met your ideal, but I think your ideal is flawed and focuses on the wrong things.

Vehrec, your 'spawn camp' method works if you're DEFENDING the system.  Otherwise, it's an endurance contest where I strangle your jumpship assets until your crews end up surrendering to eat/get fresh air/have water.

It's logistics, man.  Strategic Logistics.  the FIRST thing a reacting force is going to go for, is your jumpship-because once that's down, your ovewhelming force that doesn't have a ground unit, is stranded and I only need enough pursuit to keep your guys burning fuel and not sleeping, resulting in eventually your dropships are either dead, or mine.

Your concept works for short engagements on a fluid front or in support of an invasion force that has their own logistics.  For commerce suppression, my units have plenty of food, water and fuel in that 'spawn camp' area, and yours are, by definition, limited.  MY patrol forces also KNOW the system better, and hold the cards as far as resupply and being able to thrust or back off as needed, YOU still need the ultra-vulnerable jumpships to keep your crews alive.

Thus, again, PWS are fine for playing defense, or as line units in an invasion operation (when supported by large scale external logistics) but they're NOT for the kind of operations that cut someone's supply lines and cripple their offensive.

The whole concept of the commerce raider, is based on logistics.  You're forcing the opponent to devote heavy resources to supply his forces over a long distance, and making sustained operations increasingly more expensive for every jump toward your territory he makes.
 
To get best impact it requires the ability to SPREAD, to cover area.  One jumpship spine isn't going to handle that, you need twelve, or twenty-enough to find where his traffic is moving and get them where they're not protected by anything but what they're carrying, rather than having the surface bases, independent air wings and dropships-that-don't-need-to-move. (and possibly stations or even other naval units).

I mean, it's a NICE hammer you've got there, but anyone who's done carpentry knows you don't use a hammer to drive screws.

I suspect the major divide here, Vehrec, is that you're focusing on Tactically, while I'm asking for a Strategic asset.  it's a matter of scale of operations.  Six PWS on a mapsheet is a powerful force. (esp. if they've got adequate supporting arms), but on a strategic level they're purely local to a single system.

What I'm after is a strategic platform, where the 'map' includes multiple star systems.




Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Vehrec on 28 June 2022, 23:08:45
Vehrec, your 'spawn camp' method works if you're DEFENDING the system.  Otherwise, it's an endurance contest where I strangle your jumpship assets until your crews end up surrendering to eat/get fresh air/have water.

It's logistics, man.  Strategic Logistics.  the FIRST thing a reacting force is going to go for, is your jumpship-because once that's down, your ovewhelming force that doesn't have a ground unit, is stranded and I only need enough pursuit to keep your guys burning fuel and not sleeping, resulting in eventually your dropships are either dead, or mine.

Your concept works for short engagements on a fluid front or in support of an invasion force that has their own logistics.  For commerce suppression, my units have plenty of food, water and fuel in that 'spawn camp' area, and yours are, by definition, limited.  MY patrol forces also KNOW the system better, and hold the cards as far as resupply and being able to thrust or back off as needed, YOU still need the ultra-vulnerable jumpships to keep your crews alive.

Thus, again, PWS are fine for playing defense, or as line units in an invasion operation (when supported by large scale external logistics) but they're NOT for the kind of operations that cut someone's supply lines and cripple their offensive.

The whole concept of the commerce raider, is based on logistics.  You're forcing the opponent to devote heavy resources to supply his forces over a long distance, and making sustained operations increasingly more expensive for every jump toward your territory he makes.
 
To get best impact it requires the ability to SPREAD, to cover area.  One jumpship spine isn't going to handle that, you need twelve, or twenty-enough to find where his traffic is moving and get them where they're not protected by anything but what they're carrying, rather than having the surface bases, independent air wings and dropships-that-don't-need-to-move. (and possibly stations or even other naval units).

I mean, it's a NICE hammer you've got there, but anyone who's done carpentry knows you don't use a hammer to drive screws.

I suspect the major divide here, Vehrec, is that you're focusing on Tactically, while I'm asking for a Strategic asset.  it's a matter of scale of operations.  Six PWS on a mapsheet is a powerful force. (esp. if they've got adequate supporting arms), but on a strategic level they're purely local to a single system.

What I'm after is a strategic platform, where the 'map' includes multiple star systems.

There is nothing defensive about my PWS deployments.  They will be launched into multiple star systems.  They will hunt deep into enemy territory by catching rides to those locations.  The fact that they do not have integrated jump drives does not make them immobile, it simple changes the calculus.  They will utterly ruin the enemy's logistics far faster because they are cheaper and more numerous.  They can guard their own Jumpship if they have to, or divide and conquer, or maybe even use one of those LF-equipped jumpships to be dropped off and call for pickup when they are done.  I don't count on having those jumpships readily available, but they would make for a formidable strategic multiplier.

But I can see that I cannot convince you that jumpship-based warfare has any future.  There is no argument I can make to convince you, because your argument is so clearly at odds with my own strategic understanding.  Your own argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, because apparently once the jumpship is gone the dropships can never call for another ride?  You strawman me as focused on the tactical when I math out my estimates for losses and gains.  You claim that 'one jumpship spine can't spread out', when I make it clear that my jumpships and their droppers are cheaper than your individual raiders and I can field more jumpship spines than you can warships.  If you have 20 raiders operating in 20 stellar areas, my system operates 120 dropships and 30 jumpships in 30 different areas.

But, I notice, you're not actually talking about 'unrestricted submarine warfare'.  You're talking about limited logistical attrition, not about destroying a rival power by collapsing their entire network of interstellar trade, targeting down the weakest and most vulnerable planets of their state, and causing megadeaths that rapidly spiral into gigadeaths as you steadily chew away at their sinews of trade and war. 
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Cannonshop on 28 June 2022, 23:25:04
There is nothing defensive about my PWS deployments.  They will be launched into multiple star systems.  They will hunt deep into enemy territory by catching rides to those locations.  The fact that they do not have integrated jump drives does not make them immobile, it simple changes the calculus.  They will utterly ruin the enemy's logistics far faster because they are cheaper and more numerous.  They can guard their own Jumpship if they have to, or divide and conquer, or maybe even use one of those LF-equipped jumpships to be dropped off and call for pickup when they are done.  I don't count on having those jumpships readily available, but they would make for a formidable strategic multiplier.

But I can see that I cannot convince you that jumpship-based warfare has any future.  There is no argument I can make to convince you, because your argument is so clearly at odds with my own strategic understanding.  Your own argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, because apparently once the jumpship is gone the dropships can never call for another ride?  You strawman me as focused on the tactical when I math out my estimates for losses and gains.  You claim that 'one jumpship spine can't spread out', when I make it clear that my jumpships and their droppers are cheaper than your individual raiders and I can field more jumpship spines than you can warships.  If you have 20 raiders operating in 20 stellar areas, my system operates 120 dropships and 30 jumpships in 30 different areas.

But, I notice, you're not actually talking about 'unrestricted submarine warfare'.  You're talking about limited logistical attrition, not about destroying a rival power by collapsing their entire network of interstellar trade, targeting down the weakest and most vulnerable planets of their state, and causing megadeaths that rapidly spiral into gigadeaths as you steadily chew away at their sinews of trade and war.

once the jumpship is gone, unless you're fitting with FTL commo, yeah, you're stuck. Jumpships have to appear at predictable points, and depending on how many y ou have to use, this can get sticky when they can't move from one point to another.

It's your getaway vehicle for the heist, get it? unless you've got a spare on standby, it still gives a defender PLENTY of time to prep a warm reception for your backup, because unless he's got sublight maneuver drives better than 'station keeping' and enough SI to handle being beaten on, it's a key vulnerability to your whole strategy.

The jump-capable raider may be more expensive individually, but it's also more FLEXIBLE.  It can be used to scout routes, prep relays, survey, and so on.

Your dropships can't do that, and you're using basic jumpships, which means your combat power can't operate independently of the fleet for a big, obvious weakness that anyone half-awake is going to target immediately (even in preference to engaging your dropships.)

and this works-if the dropships are escorting a convoy.  You've got a nice Flower-class corvette, I'm asking for gato class subs.

they don't fill the same role.  I'm looking at waging strategic warfare, forcing the enemy to invest in his escorts and worry about that 'gap' between the Homeworlds and the Inner Sphere. 

Put in simpler terms, the success of Commerce raiding is only PARTLY in tonnage sunk.  The REAL success, is tapping the enemy's wallet by making him expend lots of money-equivalent to protect his supply line instead of launching his next offensive.
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Daryk on 02 July 2022, 15:25:09
Cannonshop: how about spinning the whole ship on its axis instead of installing a grav deck? ???
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Cannonshop on 02 July 2022, 20:38:43
Cannonshop: how about spinning the whole ship on its axis instead of installing a grav deck? ???
then you have to reconfigure your fittings when you turn the engines on.  This is kinda the problem with "Artificial gravity" arrangements in fiction (or even engineering): if you're spinning, 'down' is 'outward', but when you're under thrust, 'down' is 'toward the engines'.

which is kinda the problem solved by having a gravy deck instead of having the whole ship spun for G's-you can switch it off and lock it, and put only nonessential systems on it that can be shut down when you're in motion or combat.

the second problem, is your inner ear.  to spin it fast enough to provide that gravity with only the diameter of the ship? you're looking at disrupting the equilibrium of the whole crew to get any appreciable 'pull', which ain't healthy.  A gravity deck needs a certain diameter to be slow enough not to make everyone car-sick.
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Wrangler on 02 July 2022, 21:19:58
So modern but tiny Sub-compact KF drive, which essentially a missile attack ship?  Won't one Liam's Ghosts Type 51 with slight update work with that?  Or you want surveillance size ship?
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Cannonshop on 03 July 2022, 03:42:18
So modern but tiny Sub-compact KF drive, which essentially a missile attack ship?  Won't one Liam's Ghosts Type 51 with slight update work with that?  Or you want surveillance size ship?

well... The Sampan in Ngo stories is a modified Type 51 normally.  I'm kind of looking for "We've got good shipyards building this one" and a looser budget strings.  If my 'usual' or the Type 51 is a Gato class, I'm looking for something more akin to a seawolf style attack vessel, following roughly the same lines but with improvements-figure something that can be built on a regular compact core, but with limited armament and a focus on sensors, command, and electronic warfare (to substitute for stealth).

basically with SCMR (the story) the ships should be a chance to let your inner munchkin roam-within a reasonable tonnage and with a pretty sharply limited selection of actual WEAPONS.

Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Daryk on 03 July 2022, 05:24:59
Here's an interesting paper on the subject: https://space.nss.org/wp-content/uploads/Space-Settlement-Population-Rotation-Tolerance-Globus.pdf

The author says:
Quote
A rotation rate of up to 6 rpm (25 m radius) should be acceptable for residents but visitors will almost certainly need training and/or a few days to adapt. While higher rotation rates (up to 10 rpm) may be acceptable with training, such small structures are not suitable for permanent residence (9 m radius at 10 rpm).

Your point about fittings is totally spot on though, so a grav deck will be needed on the next Mark (which I'm already working on...).

BTW, here's the crew breakdown for my Mark VI:
Code: [Select]
Ship's Officers (14 total):
CO (O-5)
XO/Navigator (O-4)
3 Department Heads (O-3): Operations Officer/Assistant Navigator, Weapons Officer, Chief Engineer
9 Division Officers (O-1/2): Engineering Department: Damage Control Assistant, Main Propulsion Assistant, Electrical Assisstant; Operations Department:1st Lieutenant, Signals Warfare Officer; Weapons Department: Combat Systems Officer, Guns, Missiles; Executive "Department": Supply

Ship's Crew (86 total):
Command Master Chief (E-9)
Ship's Secretary (E-7/6)
Divisions (generally one E-7, one E-6 and the rest E-5 and below): Auxiliary Division: 6, Machinery Division: 6, Electrical Division: 6; Deck: 12, Signals: 15; Combat Systems: 9, Guns: 12, Missilies: 12; Supply: 6 (includes the cooks)

Marine Detachment (50 total):
"Major" (O-3)
2 Platoon Commanders (O-2/1)
"Foot" Platoon: 28 (30 including two officers)
BA Platoon: 11 (12 including an officer)
Medical: 5 (1 Chief Corpsman (E-7) and 4 Corpsmen (E-5))
BA Techs: 3

Air Wing (150 total):
CAG (O-5)
DCAG (O-4)
3 Air Wing Staff (O-3s): Maintenance Officer, Operations Officer, "Paddles" (Landing Signals/Safety Officer)
20 Pilots (O-1/2): 12 ASF, 8 Small Craft
12 Air Crew (3 Enlisted per small craft)
Air Wing Command Master Chief (E-9)
16 Techs (E-6 to E-8)
96 AsTechs (E-5 and below)

Bay quality racks for up to 216 "passengers" (normally empty)
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Daryk on 03 July 2022, 06:00:07
So yeah... the Mark VII just turns 550 tons of cargo into a Large NCSS and a "small" (under 50m diameter) grav deck (leaving 2,550 for general cargo/spares).  I already had enough RTOs to cover the crew requirement, so the only change was in the price: 7,399,472,000 C-Bills vice the Mark VI's 6,889,472,000.  Not a bad price hike for the extra capability and improved crew health.
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Atarlost on 03 July 2022, 14:28:53
jump point is a strait, and it is trivially easy to set up and tear down a blockade of one of these straits. 

Only pirate points are straits.  The standard points are navigational conventions, but you can jump anywhere outside the star's jump limit that isn't inside an outer system planet's jump limit.  All it takes for an enemy to avoid your blockade by jumping at a random other point on the jump limit is to not be a particularly uncreative grounder like Alexander Kerensky. 
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: wolfgar on 03 July 2022, 14:39:26
which is why you blockade the planet, not the standard jumpoints.
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Atarlost on 04 July 2022, 12:57:02
which is why you blockade the planet, not the standard jumpoints.

Cannonshop has already explained why this doesn't work with dropships unless their collars are on warships that are also with the blockade. 

Here's an interesting paper on the subject: https://space.nss.org/wp-content/uploads/Space-Settlement-Population-Rotation-Tolerance-Globus.pdf

Right, that's for 1g.  Mars is permanently inhabited in Battletech so the minimum gravity for long term health in Battletech is demonstrably at most 0.38g.  That's a linear scalar on your grav deck radius.  This means that if you can accept 6rpm grav decks you can go down to 10 meters.  Or you can do 4 RPM in a 22 meter grav deck or 3 rpm in a 38 meter grav deck if you want to be able to acclimate new crew quicker. 
Title: Re: We're going to do another fanfic challenge...
Post by: Daryk on 04 July 2022, 13:32:58
Excellent points, and exactly what I was hoping to start in the way of conversation!  :thumbsup: