an experiment in force building..

[glitterboy2098]

awhile back i experimented with building a militia type unit at low budget (30k cbills)
scarily, the result was a reinforced battalion of infantry and light tanks that had a BV around 16,000.. about what you'd expect from a company of mechs. it was basically two companies of Scorpion tanks with several companies of infantry, and a few lances of VTOL's and hovers.


well, i decided to give the same unit a go in Alpha Strike. i set myself a 400 point value limit, the same size i've been using for my mech units.


this is what i came up with.. note that the PV listing is with skill modifiers applied.

Code: [Select]

Alpha Strike: Iron Tide 393pv

Unit Skill Points
-------------------------------------------------------
***Armor Company 1***
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11

Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11

Scorpion Light Tank (LRM) 4 14
Scorpion Light Tank (LRM) 4 14
Scorpion Light Tank (LRM) 4 14
Scorpion Light Tank (LRM) 4 14

***Armor Company 2***
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11

Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11
Scorpion Light Tank (standard) 4 11

Scorpion Light Tank (LRM) 4 14
Scorpion Light Tank (LRM) 4 14
Scorpion Light Tank (LRM) 4 14
Scorpion Light Tank (LRM) 4 14

***Infantry Battalion 1***
Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (Rifle) 5 4
Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (Rifle) 5 4
Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (SRM) 5 7

Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (Rifle) 5 4
Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (Rifle) 5 4
Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (SRM) 5 7

Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (Rifle) 5 4
Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (Rifle) 5 4
Mechanized Wheeled Platoon (SRM) 5 7

***VTOL support Demi-company***
Ferret Light Scout VTOL (Standard) 4 6
Ferret Light Scout VTOL (Standard) 4 6
Ferret Light Scout VTOL (Standard) 4 6
Ferret Light Scout VTOL (Standard) 4 6

Warrior Attack Helicopter H-7 4 9
Warrior Attack Helicopter H-7 4 9
Warrior Attack Helicopter H-7 4 9
Warrior Attack Helicopter H-7 4 9

i'm also appending the PDF the AS builder produced. sadly it is too big for attaching so i'll provide a link to my googledrive..
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxIuaTgKKEs4NE0talpPdVNkbDg/view?usp=sharing


the original idea was this was a "flypaper" unit.. something tough enough to hold up under serious firepower long enough to matter, but cheap enough you can afford to send them out as a disposable sacrifice to slow an enemy down. in battletech i think it would work that way, since all those tanks basically can be mission killed fairly fast.

in alpha strike.. i'm not so sure it would be all that weak. which scares me a bit actually.

as far as special lance formations go.. the Scorpions are Brawlers, so they'd make Light battle Lances. theLRm versions are missile boats, so they'd be Fire Support lances. the VTOL's are all scouts so that's recon lances.

so this battalion force has
4 Light Battle Lances
2 Fire Support Lances
2 Recon lances

[ConstableBrew]

It would be fun to play a campaign where this militia defends against an invasion.

[Elmoth]

Just noticed that the infantry do not have transport. Is that intentional?

Cheers,
Xavi

[nckestrel]

Just noticed that the infantry do not have transport. Is that intentional?

Cheers,
Xavi

The infantry are all mechanized, they have their own transport. (move of 8"w).

[glitterboy2098]

Just noticed that the infantry do not have transport. Is that intentional?

Cheers,
Xavi

they have integral transport. Mechanized Wheeled Infantry are basically infantry riding around in light trucks/Humvee's/halftracks.

they aren't terribly fast but they benefit from roads and are actually cheaper in AS than the motorized equivalent, with the recent PV changes (not sure why)

the infantry are mostly there for theme and to give some disposable objective claiming units.

[Weirdo]

They're also cheaper because they tend to be less durable than motor troops. Understandably, Alpha Strike ignores their resiliency versus small arms, and their weakness in the face of heavy guns are what drive their armor/structure conversions.

Did you ever get the chance to try this force out in AS? It seems to me like it'd be a terrible meat grinder to try and chew through, unless you brought plenty of AE or Thunders.

[nckestrel]

they aren't terribly fast but they benefit from roads and are actually cheaper in AS than the motorized equivalent, with the recent PV changes (not sure why)

Motorized Platoon Laser is 10PV, mechanized Platoon Laser is 9 PV.  Mechanized has 1 armor, motorized has 2 armor.  That's the PV difference.

[glitterboy2098]

They're also cheaper because they tend to be less durable than motor troops. Understandably, Alpha Strike ignores their resiliency versus small arms, and their weakness in the face of heavy guns are what drive their armor/structure conversions.

Did you ever get the chance to try this force out in AS? It seems to me like it'd be a terrible meat grinder to try and chew through, unless you brought plenty of AE or Thunders.

not yet. though i recently got enough third party 6mm Merkava tanks to do the armor component. might redesign it slightly.. with the addition to the MUL of infantry with towed artillery, i'm really tempted to try and cram some into an enlarged version (since the VTOL's are gonna go up in PV.. and i've moved my force building to 600 and 800pv mech forces to compensate for the extra cost of fast movers)

thinking of assigning it to a future Lyran force as a more canon compatible version of Ersatzkampfgruppe Fifteen 


also, recent discussio nelsewhere has led me to determine this entire battalion (comprising 308 crew and infantry.. unknown # of support staff) can fit inside a Trojan armed freight hauler with 620 tons to spare (the unit comprised of 920 tons of vehicles)
i don't know how much tonnage would be required for supplemental lifesupport but that is a fair amount of tonnage for a logistics train.

i also determined that you could fit a little over 8 0f them onto a Mammoth if you were not concerned with supplemental life support.. i suspect you could easily fit 6 with it. being able to haul a two light combined arms regiments on a single dropship collar could be very interesting, even if it would take forever to unload them. of course, that is what the other ships with their mechs and aerofighters are for, right? 

[Weirdo]

Motorized Platoon Laser is 10PV, mechanized Platoon Laser is 9 PV.  Mechanized has 1 armor, motorized has 2 armor.  That's the PV difference.

I take it the loss of AM wasn't worth a full point difference?

not yet. though i recently got enough third party 6mm Merkava tanks to do the armor component. might redesign it slightly.. with the addition to the MUL of infantry with towed artillery, i'm really tempted to try and cram some into an enlarged version (since the VTOL's are gonna go up in PV.. and i've moved my force building to 600 and 800pv mech forces to compensate for the extra cost of fast movers)

thinking of assigning it to a future Lyran force as a more canon compatible version of Ersatzkampfgruppe Fifteen 

That sounds evil!

[Elmoth]

Ah, I thought you had to buy the transports separately. Good to know they are integral to the units.

[glitterboy2098]

Ah, I thought you had to buy the transports separately. Good to know they are integral to the units.

depends on the infantry.

foot infantry only move 1mp/2 inches. they really need separate transport to be able to keep up with anything. even the slowest vehicles and mechs can out run them fairly fast. but they only weigh 3 tons so there is a fairly wide array of things able to carry them.

Jump Infantry have personal jetpacks, and can move 3mp/6 inches. this is on par with most of the slower mechs and vee's. but they jump, so they are more mobile than they seem, since they can pretty much always move their full distance, barring something higher than 3 levels being in their way. they also weigh 3 tons 9but have smaller man-counts) so you can still load them onto a lot of vehicles, and probably should if you want them to keep up with faster units.

Motorized infantry are basically on bikes, 4wheelATV's, and light jeeps/FAAV's. they can do (IIRC) 4mp/8 inches, and weigh about 6 tons. not many vehicles exist that can carry them, but it can be useful for moving them around faster. (loading a platoon of them onto a Karnov VTOL for example for rapid deployment)

Mechanized infantry is a newer type rules wise, and in regular BT they get some extra perks and durability, because they are riding around in light vehicles. this drives up their weight a lot (to around 20-24 tons!) but it gives them various movement types, with all the perks and limits that come from that. there are wheeled, tracked, hover, VTOL, even aquatic versions, representing things like trucks, humvees, hovercars, minicopters, etc. they can get faster than motorized, depending on their motive type, but usually not by much more. since they are so heavy there are few units non-dropship, non-support units able to carry them.

with all of them you can purchase a vehicle with enough infantry or cargo space to carry them into battle. usually though people let the motorized and mechanized platoons stand alone, and only get a carry-vehicle for the foot and jump stuff.

[sadlerbw]

Fun thread to raise from the dead!

With the PV revision that just happened, this force is now 417PV thanks to the VTOL's getting more expensive. The Ferrets went from 6 to 8 and the Warriors from 9 to 13. Still, pretty close to 400.

This force is a great example of why Artillery (or potentially bombs) is such an important part of Alpha Strike. It is DEADLY on high-TMM units, and on swarms of ground units. 2 points may not sound like much to a mech, but it is devastating to these sorts of low PV units. Plus, with the numbers involved it is really hard to keep them spread out enough to prevent multiples from getting hit by each arty round. Heck, I probably don't even need to hit. With this much stuff on the board, I'm probably going to scatter into something even if I miss!

Consequently, the VTOLs are probably the biggest threat because they can potentially hover over the arty attacks. The FLK special or special AC ammo would help if we were playing with the alternate ammo rules. Still, leaving potential anti-air specials aside, there is a lot you can do with 400PV. If I knew I was going against a conventional-vehicle-heavy force, I could do something like this:

4x Charger 1A1, Skill 4
4x Firestarter FS9-H, Skill 3
2x Javelin JVN-10F, Skill 3
2x Catapult CPLT-C1, Skill 2
2x Mobile Long Tom Artillery, Skill 3

VTOL's aside, I've got a decent TMM advantage plus a skill advantage on all your units, so in general my to-hit rolls are going to be 2 easier than yours at any given range. The Chargers make horribly annoying spotters for artillery as they close. My to-hit numbers will generally be 7's: skill 3 + 4 for indirect artillery attack +1 for AoE attack, -1 for firing unit stood still (my arty is happy to sit still). Plus, with the 6" template of the long tom, even if I miss, I've got a 50/50 chance of whatever I aimed at still ending up under the template after scatter. The Firestarters and Javelins are going to jump their way in, so you will be looking at 9's to hit at medium range if they don't have cover, 11's if they do. Once they get close, they will try to get in base-to-base with as many vehicles as they can to prevent them from shooting back, and trying for back shots to get 3 or 4 damage at short range. The Chargers, if they survive the run in, are pretty much tank delete buttons even if the arty hasn't done its job. My Catapults will hang back and work on the VTOLs if possible. At Skill 2, if they can find a flyer in medium range, it is in trouble, even with their higher TMMs. If they run out of Warriors to shoot at, they are happy to poke TMM 1 tanks at long range.

Can you plink me to death before my higher-quality units whittle down your numbers too far? Maybe, maybe not. It would be a fun game to play, but it would take a while with you moving 44 units around!

[Elmoth]

But that is basically cheating, dont you think? You bring that, itterboy2098 should be able to review and counter with adequate units or a mech force (For example). Otherwise you `are going to the battle with the equivalent of double points, really.

[glitterboy2098]

i'm actually in the process of revising this concept some.. i now have enough tank mini's i could possibly build this, though i'd have to stock up on some more GHQ infantry* and maybe order some IWM stuff. since i've been designing around specific units from the setting (such as doing the 2nd Tikonov Guards for the Capellans, with an attached group of Bannson's Raiders mercs) i figured i'd pick a unit for this group too, though i'm sticking to about 400pv so that i can fill out the other 600pv of these prefab armies with something more traditional.

decided to go non-canon with this one, but something that fits the dark ages time period i picked for these units.. the Ersatzkampfgruppe concept from Cannonshop's fanfiction setting, where the Lyrans built quick and dirty battle groups by basically drafting militia units into the frontlines. only instead of the Jihad, i'm assuming they do it in the dark ages. given the Lyran's economic issues (especially with so much of the budget going to keeping comstar afloat), and their losses to the Wolves and Falcons, it seems like the kind of time they'd resort to such desperation tactics.
in keeping with the inspiration, i decided to have the group actually be from Kowloon... though my take is going to be more canon compatible than Cannonshop's. sorry, no Patton MBT based IFV's here. more's the pity. but as a force they are a good fit for this kind of formation.. reliance on conventional armor and infantry in mass numbers, complete with conscription to fill out the ranks with warm bodies (if not too skilled) but with some specialists that are well trained.

this also means i get to play around with towed artillery. what fun. 


current list is 20 Goblin medium Tanks (best compromise between pluasible and Cannonshop's version.. also better fit for the Merkava Mk.II's i have for minis), 4 Warrior H-7's, 6 platoons of Motorized Heavy Infantry, and 4 platoons of Mechanized Field Artillery.

[sadlerbw]

But that is basically cheating, dont you think? You bring that, itterboy2098 should be able to review and counter with adequate units or a mech force (For example). Otherwise you `are going to the battle with the equivalent of double points, really.

Not really. That's just a generic 'stomp on combat vehicles in 3050' force. You can re-do the whole opposing force with Schrek's, Drillsons, and Yellow Jackets and it would still be a good counter. 400PV and vehicle-heavy is all I was really assuming. When it comes to vehicles, you are basically getting one of three things: a pile of fast hovers (which the arty deals well with), slow, beefy tanks (which keeping up the TMM's and making sure most units have medium range damage helps counter), or a truly silly number of individually unimpressive units (which Arty and better skills tends to deal well with). This force wouldn't do well against VTOL spam though. If you dropped a company of Scorpions and the infantry to bring in a company of Skill 3 VTOLs, and I'd be toast. It's not perfect, but for whatever reason VTOL's are less popular than fast hovers, so I would expect to see (and need to counter) less VTOLs than hovers. In this case, I only have two units (the Catapults) with a good response to his 8 VTOLs.

If I was REALLY trying to counter his exact list, I could pretty easily do better than the unit I posted. 8x Skill 7 Savannah Masters and 8x Skill 0 LRM Carriers would do nicely, and I'd have some PV left over to upgrade a couple Savannah Masters to Skill 2 or 3 if I wanted. If he tried a VTOL rush, I have enough LRM units to drop all of them in a single turn, and the skills to make that happen. All the other units would almost literally have to cross the entire board under indirect fire to be able to noticably reduce my damage output. He doesn't have enough fast hovers or VTOL's that do decent damage to do anything about it. That is pretty cheesy though.

If I want to avoid quite so much cheese, I could ditch the artillery and Charger spotters to throw in an augmented lance of Chippewas or Eagles full of bombs. Literally nothing in his force could threshold them, so I don't have to worry about control rolls, and they both have versions that do 4 damage, which is enough to kill everything but the LRM Scorpions in one hit. I could get away with this because I know he can't generate 2 damage from a single hit. However, I didn't assume that and didn't include the Aero accordingly. I could also give up on the jumping lights for some low-skill J. Edgar's or Lightning Attack Hovers, which both have TMM 4, are about as tough, and do similar damage to the lights they replace. If I had presumed to know he would have no artillery of his own, the hovers would have been the better choice. However, with artillery in play, the extra point or two of health and lack of motive crits are safer choices so I stuck with the mechs.

It isn't perfect, but I really was trying for a generic anti-conventional-vehicle setup rather than a specific counter to the list presented. I tried to imagine someone told me we were going to be fighting local militia, comprised of conventional forces with little or no mech support. Why didn't I mention any of this in the first place? Because look at this post!!! I type way too much in these things as it is. No one would ever read it if I went off the rails like this all the time!

[glitterboy2098]

eh, i'd not be too worried. sure, people can tailor their force to deal with this kind of horde.. but at the same time, the sheer number of units involved means that you can inflict a lot of damage through grouped fire, and tactics can be adjusted to deal with a lot of stuff.
plus in AS vehicles aren't quite as fragile as they are in regular BT, so while some units might be better at hurting vehicles, it is harder to find stuff that outright murders them the way you can in regular BT rules.

[DOC_Agren]

current list is 20 Goblin medium Tanks (best compromise between pluasible and Cannonshop's version.. also better fit for the Merkava Mk.II's i have for minis), 4 Warrior H-7's, 6 platoons of Motorized Heavy Infantry, and 4 platoons of Mechanized Field Artillery.

have you looked at Daryk Goblin mods?  they might provide you with what you need to bring Loonies to the party

[glitterboy2098]

Kowloon is more of a mindset than hardware.
i've been using official designs available in the MUL because it makes it easier. the cards already exist and I can use the AS force builder to handle the math on skills.
i went with Goblins for two main reason's. first, because they were closer to the custom rommel's Cannonshop gave the 'loonies in his 2.0 and 3.0 version stories while still being reasonable to see in a semi-canon planetary militia, and second they fit the merkava tank miniatures i'm using.

as it is i'll need to buy some helicopters and towed artillery to finish the force assembly. thankfully i could put together the mech component with stuff i already have. wound up very assault mech heavy.

[DOC_Agren]

and Daryk's Goblin force were also inspired by Cannonshop's dirt bag militia
here are his custom Hobigoblin and others. 

[glitterboy2098]

have the results of my force building up in a thread in the Non-canon units section of the forums.. feel free to come by and have a look.
now, in writing fluff i've basically taken a defensive militia unit and stuck it into a frontline force.. but that just makes things interesting.

[Colt Ward]

I remember some of those discussions . . . I seem to remember we could get a mix or Scorpions and infantry on a few of the FB-335 to be able to rapidly redeploy the force in the face of a landing.