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Author Topic: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?  (Read 400 times)

saab14

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Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« on: 02 September 2021, 21:40:47 »
I haven't found an answer in rulebooks or forums, so perhaps you could help me resolve this.

In a recent game one of us brought along a VTOL and used it to transport infantry around the map.

Intuitively, a VTOL should be very vulnerable on the turn when it debusses its infantry.

However, we couldn't find any rules in the Alpha Strike books to back that up.

Are we missing something?

DevianID

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Re: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« Reply #1 on: 02 September 2021, 23:46:02 »
I mean if you dont move you lose your TMM, so there is that.

Infantry disembarking is a rather quick zipline thing for vtols though so you dont need to remain stationary to do it i thought

MyndkryM

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Re: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« Reply #2 on: 03 September 2021, 18:09:01 »
I believe jump capable infantry and the PARA special allow disembark the VTOL at the end of the transporting unit's movement at altitude. The Mechanized formation option allows disembarkation anywhere along the flight path. Normal infantry require the VTOL to land to allow the transported unit to disembark.

But yeah....keep the bird moving for the TMM.
"Halfway down the trail to Hell,
In a shady meadow green
Are the Souls of all dead Troopers camped,
Near a good old-time canteen.
And this eternal resting place
Is known as Fiddlers’ Green...."

-"Fiddler's Green" The US Cavalryman's Prayer

saab14

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Re: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« Reply #3 on: 04 September 2021, 06:40:50 »
Fair enough—thanks to you both. I may consider house ruling it a bit for landing VTOLs (eg -x TMM).

Cannonshop

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Re: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« Reply #4 on: 04 September 2021, 09:55:05 »
Fair enough—thanks to you both. I may consider house ruling it a bit for landing VTOLs (eg -x TMM).

actually, just remember something: If you stop in the  drop-off hex with MP left over, you can land and still retain SOME TMM, so you don't necessarily need to stay airborne and have expensive fast-rope troops to drop off or do a pickup.  You won't maybe retain ALL your TMM, but strategize correctly and with a faster airframe you can still have a good, strong TMM when you drop off non-jumpy troops. You just won't have the max unless you plan it REAL well.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."-Samuel Adams

saab14

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Re: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« Reply #5 on: 04 September 2021, 13:57:48 »
I don't understand that one--I thought VTOLs kept all their TMM when they landed to drop off transported infantry.

MyndkryM

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Re: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« Reply #6 on: 04 September 2021, 14:52:21 »
I'm all about playing the game the way you find it fun  :thumbsup:

I would consider this...

Yes...the transporting unit receives it's TMM, and so does any other unit that moves. You just have to move 1" to get your TMM, also the dismounting unit has a TMM 0 but is considered moved and not at a standstill. I think this makes sense and you're not introducing other inconsistencies; namely a ground units getting full TMM when only traveling a single inch.

There's another thread in this forum about MV and charge attack damage, it's a good read. But the rules as written seem to imply that a Mech could run in circles and get full charge damage.

I refer to this as "The Curly Shuffle", https://youtu.be/HzvuuUuvoIM

I find this absolutely hilarious...and I'm cool with that  :D
"Halfway down the trail to Hell,
In a shady meadow green
Are the Souls of all dead Troopers camped,
Near a good old-time canteen.
And this eternal resting place
Is known as Fiddlers’ Green...."

-"Fiddler's Green" The US Cavalryman's Prayer

nckestrel

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Re: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« Reply #7 on: 04 September 2021, 15:50:00 »
 VTOLs have no ability to move on the ground.  The turn they land, they can have TMM as long as thru moved before dropping elevation to land.
The turn they take off, they get their TMM as long as they move some distance after they take off.
But if the VTOL stays on the ground for a turn, it has to standstill because it didn’t move.
A landed VTOL does not get the airborne modifier.  A VTOL that took off this turn would (assuming to remained in the air and didn’t land again).
Left of Center blog - Nashira Campaign for A Game of Armored Combat, TP 3039 Vega Supplemental Record Sheets, Combat Manual Lite series [Steiner, Liao, Marik, Calderon, Invading Clans, Comstar. Also Record Sheets for the CM: Kurita and CM: Mercs unique pilots]

Cannonshop

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Re: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« Reply #8 on: 04 September 2021, 16:21:16 »
I don't understand that one--I thought VTOLs kept all their TMM when they landed to drop off transported infantry.

any time you're able to move, you can generate SOME TMM.

However, TMM is determined by how many HEXES you've moved, not by how many MP you've got available or even have spent. (turns don't add to it, elevation changes don't add to it).

VTOLs are highly dependent on their TMM for survival to a greater extent than most other units in the game even accounting for tonnage.

and it costs MP to land or take off. (ELevation changes)

Thus, to deliver your air-assault infantry (or extract them) you don't get to have your theoretical max TMM that turn most of the time, you'll have a lower TMM thanks ot needing to land/take off.

get it now?  you only get TMM for hexes covered, not for MP spent.
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go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
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nckestrel

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Re: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« Reply #9 on: 04 September 2021, 16:23:35 »
However, TMM is determined by how many HEXES you've moved, not by how many MP you've got available or even have spent. (turns don't add to it, elevation changes don't add to it).

This is the Alpha Strike forum.. You're a little off on how it works in AS.
Left of Center blog - Nashira Campaign for A Game of Armored Combat, TP 3039 Vega Supplemental Record Sheets, Combat Manual Lite series [Steiner, Liao, Marik, Calderon, Invading Clans, Comstar. Also Record Sheets for the CM: Kurita and CM: Mercs unique pilots]

saab14

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Re: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« Reply #10 on: 04 September 2021, 16:52:03 »
VTOLs have no ability to move on the ground.  The turn they land, they can have TMM as long as thru moved before dropping elevation to land.
The turn they take off, they get their TMM as long as they move some distance after they take off.
But if the VTOL stays on the ground for a turn, it has to standstill because it didn’t move.
A landed VTOL does not get the airborne modifier.  A VTOL that took off this turn would (assuming to remained in the air and didn’t land again).

I had missed that airborne vehicles got an extra TMM; so one that landed to drop off a unit would effectively have -1 to their TMM. Neat. Thanks!

MyndkryM

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Re: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« Reply #11 on: 04 September 2021, 17:47:33 »
VTOLs have no ability to move on the ground.  The turn they land, they can have TMM as long as thru moved before dropping elevation to land.
The turn they take off, they get their TMM as long as they move some distance after they take off.
But if the VTOL stays on the ground for a turn, it has to standstill because it didn’t move.
A landed VTOL does not get the airborne modifier.  A VTOL that took off this turn would (assuming to remained in the air and didn’t land again).

So this should be correct???

During Movement, a Gray Death Standard [Laser] squad mounts a landed Cavalry Attack Helicopter (Infantry) and proceeds to take off. It travels 18" at 1" elevation staying airborne and thus TMM 5 (4 + 1 being airborne VTOL). Were it to travel 16" and land to dismount, the TMM for the helicopter is now TMM 4. Also, the dismounting BA squad's TMM would be 1 (0 + 1 Battle Armor).
« Last Edit: 04 September 2021, 17:52:42 by MyndkryM »
"Halfway down the trail to Hell,
In a shady meadow green
Are the Souls of all dead Troopers camped,
Near a good old-time canteen.
And this eternal resting place
Is known as Fiddlers’ Green...."

-"Fiddler's Green" The US Cavalryman's Prayer

Cannonshop

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Re: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« Reply #12 on: 04 September 2021, 17:51:46 »
This is the Alpha Strike forum.. You're a little off on how it works in AS.
mmmh, good point.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."-Samuel Adams

Cannonshop

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Re: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« Reply #13 on: 04 September 2021, 17:55:11 »
So this should be correct???

During Movement, a Gray Death Standard [Laser] squad mounts a landed Cavalry Attack Helicopter (Infantry) and proceeds to take off. It travels 18" at 1" elevation staying airborne and thus TMM 5 (4 + 1 being airborne VTOL). Where as were it to travel 16" and land to dismount, the TMM for the helicopter is now TMM 4. Also, the dismounting BA squad's TMM would be 1 (0 + 1 Battle Armor).

roughly how it works in BATTLETECH, but as Nkestrel pointed out,


some of it is more heavily abstracted.
This is the Alpha Strike forum.. You're a little off on how it works in AS.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."-Samuel Adams

nckestrel

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Re: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« Reply #14 on: 04 September 2021, 17:57:55 »
Yes, but a couple notes.
The actual distance traveled doesn’t matter as long as it’s more than standstill movement.  Then it gets its full TMM.
Taking off needs 2” movement to increase elevation.   So it would be able to take off (+1 elevation) and move 18” across.  (I think that’s what you meant since Cavalry has 20”v, but in case somebody else reading this isn’t aware of that..)
The airborne and battle armor modifiers are not target movement modifiers. Otherwise the standstill rules that override TMM and set it to +0 would also override those bonuses, and it does not.  An airborne VTOL that doesn’t move has a +0 TMM and +1 target number modifier for being airborne. 
« Last Edit: 04 September 2021, 18:26:57 by nckestrel »
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Cannonshop

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Re: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« Reply #15 on: 04 September 2021, 18:16:29 »
Yes, but a couple notes.
The actual distance traveled doesn’t matter as long as it’s more than standstill movement.  Then it gets its full TMM.
Taking off needs 2” movement to increase elevation.   So it wouldn’t be able to take off (+1 elevation) and move 18” across.  (I think that’s what you meant since Cavalry has 20”v, but in case somebody else reading this isn’t aware of that..)
The airborne and battle armor modifiers are not target movement modifiers. Otherwise the standstill rules that override TMM and set it to +0 would also override those bonuses, and it does not.  An airborne VTOL that doesn’t move has a +0 TMM and +1 target number modifier for being airborne.

for those of us whom are dim *I mean me, could you run that scenario from the top?  If I'm reading the bolded correctly, it's 2MP to take off (which doesn't actually elevate you) followed by however many elevation you climb, and the remainder is how far you can move? (IOW if you want to start moving, it's 20-(2+E) where E=the elevation to cruise, so cruising at 1 would make E=1 and so on, leaving a range of 17 or less? is that right?)

« Last Edit: 04 September 2021, 18:25:20 by Cannonshop »
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."-Samuel Adams

MyndkryM

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Re: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« Reply #16 on: 04 September 2021, 18:33:39 »
I'd assumed that taking off places the unit at 1" elevation, since landed it is at elevation 0. So taking off using 2MV but in essence has the unit traveling nap of the earth. For my previous example to work, the helicopter would be limited to 12" of travel if wanting to move at elevation 1".

So even getting to use your TMM, the real "penalty" for this type of action is a movement cost.
« Last Edit: 04 September 2021, 18:36:55 by MyndkryM »
"Halfway down the trail to Hell,
In a shady meadow green
Are the Souls of all dead Troopers camped,
Near a good old-time canteen.
And this eternal resting place
Is known as Fiddlers’ Green...."

-"Fiddler's Green" The US Cavalryman's Prayer

nckestrel

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Re: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« Reply #17 on: 04 September 2021, 18:41:46 »
I edited my quoted response.  I noticed after I wrote my initial response that the Cavalry had 20" and not just 18", but didn't correct the "can't take off and move 18".

VTOLs don't actually have a takeoff/landing defined.  But a VTOL can't move on the ground (it only has VTOL movement), and changing elevation to the same as the ground elevation lands you.
Mounting must be done before transport moves and cost the infantry movement to mount. There is no move cost tot the transport.
Dismounting must be done after the transport moves and there is no movement cost, but the infantry can't move any further the turn they dismount.

1. So a Cavalry with 20"v that starts on the ground, can have infantry mount on to the VTOL on their move, take off (+1 elevation costing 2" move) and move 18" across.  It has it's full TMM (+4) and is airborne (+1).

2. Same Cavalry starts in the air with battle armor mounted, can move 18", then land (-1 elevation costing 2" move) and dismount the infantry (no move cost). It has it's full TMM (+4) but is not airborne. The battle armor has a TMM of +0 (infantry are are always TMM +0 the turn they dismount), but have the +1 for being battle armor.

3. A Cavalry that starts on the ground, can have infantry mount on to the VTOL on their move, take off (+1 elevation, 2" move) and move 16" across, land (-1 elevation, 2" move) and dismount the infantry (no move cost). The Cavalry still has its full TMM (+4), but is not airborne. The battle armor has TMM +0 but the +1 for being battle armor.

4. A Cavalry starts in the air, with battle armor on the ground. It can move 18", then land (-1 elevation costing 2" move). The infantry can not mount this turn as mounting must happen before the transport moves.  Next turn the infantry mounts, the cavalry can take off, and move 16" and land/dismount or move 18" and remain airborne.

In the 16" and 18" above, the actual distance doesn't affect TMM, it could be 1"-18" and get it's full TMM.  Less than 1" is standstill and +0 TMM, 1" or more and you've got full TMM. 

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MyndkryM

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Re: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« Reply #18 on: 04 September 2021, 19:02:30 »
 :thumbsup:
"Halfway down the trail to Hell,
In a shady meadow green
Are the Souls of all dead Troopers camped,
Near a good old-time canteen.
And this eternal resting place
Is known as Fiddlers’ Green...."

-"Fiddler's Green" The US Cavalryman's Prayer

Cannonshop

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Re: Landed VTOLs - more vulnerable?
« Reply #19 on: 04 September 2021, 20:11:05 »
I edited my quoted response.  I noticed after I wrote my initial response that the Cavalry had 20" and not just 18", but didn't correct the "can't take off and move 18".

VTOLs don't actually have a takeoff/landing defined.  But a VTOL can't move on the ground (it only has VTOL movement), and changing elevation to the same as the ground elevation lands you.
Mounting must be done before transport moves and cost the infantry movement to mount. There is no move cost tot the transport.
Dismounting must be done after the transport moves and there is no movement cost, but the infantry can't move any further the turn they dismount.

1. So a Cavalry with 20"v that starts on the ground, can have infantry mount on to the VTOL on their move, take off (+1 elevation costing 2" move) and move 18" across.  It has it's full TMM (+4) and is airborne (+1).

2. Same Cavalry starts in the air with battle armor mounted, can move 18", then land (-1 elevation costing 2" move) and dismount the infantry (no move cost). It has it's full TMM (+4) but is not airborne. The battle armor has a TMM of +0 (infantry are are always TMM +0 the turn they dismount), but have the +1 for being battle armor.

3. A Cavalry that starts on the ground, can have infantry mount on to the VTOL on their move, take off (+1 elevation, 2" move) and move 16" across, land (-1 elevation, 2" move) and dismount the infantry (no move cost). The Cavalry still has its full TMM (+4), but is not airborne. The battle armor has TMM +0 but the +1 for being battle armor.

4. A Cavalry starts in the air, with battle armor on the ground. It can move 18", then land (-1 elevation costing 2" move). The infantry can not mount this turn as mounting must happen before the transport moves.  Next turn the infantry mounts, the cavalry can take off, and move 16" and land/dismount or move 18" and remain airborne.

In the 16" and 18" above, the actual distance doesn't affect TMM, it could be 1"-18" and get it's full TMM.  Less than 1" is standstill and +0 TMM, 1" or more and you've got full TMM.

It was the 'wouldn't' that had me going 'what??' so thanks for correcting that.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."-Samuel Adams