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Author Topic: MAS ability Broken?  (Read 5577 times)

Cambo

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MAS ability Broken?
« on: 22 August 2013, 11:53:24 »
So how is the MAS ability supposed to work in Alpha strike?  Cause as it reads, it appears broken.  The ability gives +3 if the mech is stationary, +2 if it moved up to 5", and +1 if it moved 6-12"

Let's use everybody's favourite Void Signature System mech the Raptor II as an example.

As it currently stands, trying to target a stationary Raptor II looks something like:
Base To Hit: (std IS pilot)->4
Raptor's Move Mod: (moves 18")->3
MAS ability for stationary: 3

Total to hit of 10 even without your movement, or range, or terrain modifiers (a 16% chance to hit, as a STARTING point)...

Now normally the Raptor's movement ability would cancel out MAS ability, as one increases the other decreases, so you'd never get hit by a max effect of both of them (you either get the MAS ability OR the Move Mod) but with the fixed max movement modifier of Alphastrike, there's no incentive to move a MAS unit once it's in position.

I went toe to toe with one of these things the other day... it was basically impossible to hit.

Should the MAS ability bonus only apply if you don't use your movement modifier?

Morpheus1975

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #1 on: 22 August 2013, 16:06:46 »
Base To Hit: (std IS pilot)->4
Raptor's Move Mod: (moves 18")->3
MAS ability for stationary: 0 (He moved over 18 inches)
Total = 7

Base To Hit: (std IS pilot)->4
Raptor's Move Mod: (moves 12")->+2
MAS ability for stationary: +1 (He moved 12+ inches)
Total = 7

Base To Hit: (std IS pilot)->4
Raptor's Move Mod: (moves 8")->+1
MAS ability for stationary: +1 (He moved 12+ inches)
Total = 6

Base To Hit: (std IS pilot)->4
Raptor's Move Mod: (moves 5")->+1
MAS ability for stationary: +2 (He moved 12+ inches)
Total = 7

At least that is how I understand it.


Weirdo

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #2 on: 22 August 2013, 16:16:30 »
No, Cambo's right. Remember that in BF, QS, and AS, units always get their full defensive movement modifier, even if they do not utilize their full movement in that turn. To shamelessly steal your work, this is what the correct calculations are:

Base To Hit: (std IS pilot)->4
Raptor's Move Mod: (moves 18", can move 18")->+3
MAS ability: 0 (He moved over 12 inches)
Total = 7

Base To Hit: (std IS pilot)->4
Raptor's Move Mod: (moves 12", can move 18")->+3
MAS ability: +1 (He moved 12 inches)
Total = 7

Base To Hit: (std IS pilot)->4
Raptor's Move Mod: (moves 8", can move 18")->+3
MAS ability: +1 (He moved 8 inches)
Total = 8

Base To Hit: (std IS pilot)->4
Raptor's Move Mod: (moves 5", can move 18")->+3
MAS ability: +2 (He moved 5 inches)
Total = 9

I agree that this is quite odd. I would ask this question again in here, and you'll likely get an official clarification, and possibly induce errata.
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Morpheus1975

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #3 on: 22 August 2013, 19:48:32 »
Thanks Weirdo, I forgot that point

Morpheus1975

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #4 on: 23 August 2013, 08:10:04 »
Actually the more I think about it the more I like that rule.  It gives more utility to your fast mechs and helps prevent players from slugfests and encourages fast assaults where you run in, pound, and then run away before you take serious losses.

Cambo

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #5 on: 23 August 2013, 14:45:03 »
Thing is, you find any kind of cover (which you should be maneuvering into anyways) and you're impossible to hit.  If you're standing directly infront of me you should be able to be shot.

Acolyte

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #6 on: 23 August 2013, 21:49:50 »
It also seems to discourage maneuver in the game, once good cover has been found. By standard TW rules, you need to keep moving which changes the battlefield every turn.

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Morpheus1975

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #7 on: 24 August 2013, 07:45:18 »
That's what artillery is for.  You wanna stay in the woods.  Please do.

George_Labour

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #8 on: 24 August 2013, 10:49:29 »
We had one player who 'discovered' that cowering his entire company in a water puddle surrounded by trees made him an invincible fortress that gunned down anything that got to close to him. He then began to use similar castling tactics in every game despite repeated warnings not to.

At least he did until he had to play his first game with a time limit (8 turns),  and was introduced to an O-Bakemono packing infernos and cluster rounds.  >:D

nckestrel

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #9 on: 24 August 2013, 11:09:16 »
That's what objectives are for?  At least two of them per side?
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Weirdo

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #10 on: 24 August 2013, 12:08:16 »
That's what objectives are for?  At least two of them per side?

Exactly. Giving players objective points, or at least missions beyond 'stay alive', is a surefire way to force movement out of them.
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Acolyte

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #11 on: 25 August 2013, 19:27:10 »
Yep, I use objectives extensively in my campaign (because it's an RPG so there's always a reason for what's going on) and these do keep things moving. Problem is a lot of players do the simple last one standing battles and these can bog down.

Another thing to use is larger map areas. If they bog down, bypass 'em and concentrate your forces on a smaller section of theirs, ie destroy in detail. Also, units with huge short range firepower can get them moving.

Now, don't get me wrong, here, I like this part of the simplification that is AlphaStrike - no more counting hexes moved or figuring 9 ways to get somewhere to maximize TMM, all of which slows down the game considerably. It's just something that can be abused.

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Cambo

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #12 on: 28 August 2013, 04:38:26 »
Exactly. Giving players objective points, or at least missions beyond 'stay alive', is a surefire way to force movement out of them.

This question results from a scenario with objectives.  The Raptor ran up to the objective (a building) planted itself next to it, and infront of a second building for partial cover, resulting in a literal impossibility to hit.  It became an impossible to hit unit that dealt out 3 points of damage to anyone who tried to capture the objective, with no way to dislodge it.

Arty would have worked, but is a bit of a pain to manage so we did away with it before we ran into this problem.  The overhead of managing arty without hex #s to precisely indicate the location is a deterant in our games.

There appears to be some Alpha strike abilities that just appear broken.

Don't even get me started about the lack of rear firing weapons, especially with aerospace fighters. (What do you mean I'm tailed and can't fight back? I have this CLPL pointed tight at you! -there should be the equiv of the TUR ability for rear arc weapons.)

Weirdo

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #13 on: 28 August 2013, 07:04:04 »
In my experience, there is no such thing as something that cannot be dislodged if you're cranky enough at it. For starters, there's AE.For another example, I've never seen anything survive very long if you surround it at pointblank range with half a company, regardless of the mods.

Battletech often rewards quick thinking and skillful maneuvers. It also almost always rewards excessive force.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
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Acolyte

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #14 on: 29 August 2013, 23:40:37 »
Can you not destroy buildings and light woods on fire in Alpha? Seems to me that cover is destroyable, unless you have a turn limit, of course.

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Son of Kerenski

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #15 on: 30 August 2013, 01:28:52 »
In my experience, there is no such thing as something that cannot be dislodged if you're cranky enough at it. For starters, there's AE.For another example, I've never seen anything survive very long if you surround it at pointblank range with half a company, regardless of the mods.

Battletech often rewards quick thinking and skillful maneuvers. It also almost always rewards excessive force.

As we'd done away with AE fire, it was never an option in this scenario which I played. Artillery as it is should be used sparingly. If both sides are bringing multiple batteries, then games boil down to whoever has the best spotter winz.

Devoting 6 units at point blank range to destroy a single unit isn't really an option when you are playing with multiple objectives and needing those units to capture the other objectives that are many hexes away. Even without objectives, if I have forced my opponent to make the odds 6 to 1 in their favor, then I consider that a strategical win to me for drawing that many units in to take down a single unit. And I can be punishing their other units in the process. If you're lured into such tactics then I'm secretly rubbing my hands with glee.

But the Raptor shouldn't have even been on the field, as it was Advanced/Experimental tech. Can't remember if that was stipulated from the original email (but we've played enough to essentially have it as an unwritten rule - we only allow it if we say it) but everything else on the field was intro/standard level.
« Last Edit: 30 August 2013, 01:39:23 by Son of Kerenski »

Rat

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #16 on: 01 September 2013, 02:58:39 »
This question results from a scenario with objectives.  The Raptor ran up to the objective (a building) planted itself next to it, and infront of a second building for partial cover, resulting in a literal impossibility to hit.  It became an impossible to hit unit that dealt out 3 points of damage to anyone who tried to capture the objective, with no way to dislodge it.

Arty would have worked, but is a bit of a pain to manage so we did away with it before we ran into this problem.  The overhead of managing arty without hex #s to precisely indicate the location is a deterant in our games.

There appears to be some Alpha strike abilities that just appear broken.

Don't even get me started about the lack of rear firing weapons, especially with aerospace fighters. (What do you mean I'm tailed and can't fight back? I have this CLPL pointed tight at you! -there should be the equiv of the TUR ability for rear arc weapons.)

For dislodging this unit I would suggest Aerospace bombing, which does not take target movement mods into account. [p.56, Step 4, last sentence]

Alexander Knight

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #17 on: 01 September 2013, 03:20:44 »
bah.  Buffalo drone bomb trucks!  Cheap and full of explody goodness!

Or the BNZ-1X Banzai!

<whisper whisper>

Oh, those aren't statted out?

Well, that's true for now.   >:D

Cambo

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #18 on: 11 September 2013, 06:48:29 »
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,32453.0.html

Well it appears that the powers that be have spoken, and now the MAS ability is borked/unborked depending on your point of view.

Will have to see how this plays out in a game, if Kerenski Jr's up to another battle sometime.

Savage Coyote

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #19 on: 11 September 2013, 07:05:46 »
I think that makes sense honestly.  Let us know how it goes! :)

Azakael

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #20 on: 11 September 2013, 11:16:37 »
bah.  Buffalo drone bomb trucks!  Cheap and full of explody goodness!

Or the BNZ-1X Banzai!

<whisper whisper>

Oh, those aren't statted out?

Well, that's true for now.   >:D

That thing is crazy. Shoot on your way in. Get into melee and smack for five and when you're down to internals, 'asplode. Makes sense coming out of Kurita, but I'm surprised we never saw anything like that from the Blakists. After all they would be fanatical enough to be suicidally crazy... At least until you have a unit with RBT and BT...
(Speaking of which, where are rules for RBT? I see that the Revenant has that special ability...)

Alexander Knight

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #21 on: 11 September 2013, 11:29:08 »
Currently unpublished.  Short version?  Don't get caught in an ECM bubble.

Weirdo

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #22 on: 11 September 2013, 11:29:55 »
Code Sharon. Code Sharon! :D
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
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Acolyte

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #23 on: 11 September 2013, 21:14:33 »
OK, so I just found out that the rules seem to say that MAS doesn't work against Physicals? If so, that's the solution to the OP. At the very least they'll have to move away from the objective.

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glitterboy2098

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #24 on: 11 September 2013, 22:32:50 »
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,32453.0.html

Well it appears that the powers that be have spoken, and now the MAS ability is borked/unborked depending on your point of view.
i guess this does solve some of the issue, since IIRC the fasted unit with Void Sig is the Raptor II, which has 18" movement in AS. so it could stand still for +3 from MAS or move for a... +3.
making the MAS totally useless.
that said, the void sig Archer -9W, with its 8" move (+1 mod), really benefits.

while this might solve the "Raptor II camping' issue, it does so by basically rendering the feature useless.

i know i'd advocated something like this earlier.. but i'd not thought about the whole implications for it till now, and rendering MAS useless for one unit isn't an ideal solution either.  :-[


nckestrel

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #25 on: 11 September 2013, 22:55:15 »
The point of the MAS on the Raptor II isn't that it makes it an unkillable combat machine, but that it hides it from sensors and avoids combat.  That effect of MAS is still there.  If there's every a scenario that says you have to sit in one spot for three turns to (scan, wait for pickup, etc) and lose your target movement modifier while doing so, its covered.
But MAS was never meant to make a fast unit unhittable or even help a fast unit at all, the rule puts it back where it belongs.
Somebody put it on an assault clan 'mech where it belongs :).
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Alexander Knight

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Re: MAS ability Broken?
« Reply #26 on: 11 September 2013, 23:13:57 »
MAS can also cover for those MP hit criticals

 

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