Special Ammo PV cost?

[Grizzly]

I'm reading ASCE and don't see a PV cost for using special ammo. I also don't see a limit on using different types during the same game with the same unit.

Am I missing something or there no cost for special ammo in Alpha Strike?

[MyndkryM]

I don't believe there is a PV cost for Alt Ammo...I think that cost is covered if the unit has the appropriate special ability.

Might want to re-read the Alternate Ammunition section on page 143.

Players should agree to the use of specialty munitions during
the game setup, and record which of their units are using which
types of specialty munitions.

Also,

To avoid confusion, each unit that can employ alternate munitions
may select only one non-standard munitions type per attack.

It sounds like any limits should be agreed upon between the players.

[pokefan548]

Yep. Just like the vast majority of alternate munitions in Classic, being able to take alternate ammo is just part of the ability, no extra cost required.

[Grizzly]

Thank you! Just starting my alpha strike journey after many years of classic.

[Xotl]

There is a discussion ongoing about applying a cost to alternate ammo: it's just a matter of nckestrel and I (mostly me, I'm afraid) finding a mutually free time to really sit down and finish hammering it out, and then if changes are made running it up the flagpole for final approval / disapproval.  Everyone is quite busy, so some things keep slipping through the cracks.

No guarantee that it will happen (always bear in mind that we have bosses and they of course have their own views, or that we might decide initially one way and after analysis come down on another), but it is a known issue being discussed.

[pokefan548]

Honestly, I'm mostly fine with alternate ammos being free. Due to how the conversions shake out, a lot of 'Mechs that might be overpowered with them can't take advantage of them (or at least, not full advantage without making serious sacrifices), and it gives some weaker 'Mechs a niche.

Maybe added cost for iATM infernos and MagPulse like in Classic.

[General308]

There is a discussion ongoing about applying a cost to alternate ammo: it's just a matter of nckestrel and I (mostly me, I'm afraid) finding a mutually free time to really sit down and finish hammering it out, and then if changes are made running it up the flagpole for final approval / disapproval.  Everyone is quite busy, so some things keep slipping through the cracks.

No guarantee that it will happen (always bear in mind that we have bosses and they of course have their own views, or that we might decide initially one way and after analysis come down on another), but it is a known issue being discussed.

I don't know that it is worth the trouble.  For example is AP ammo worth more than normal ammo?   At the same time you get half the ammo so would you get a lower BV because you have less ammo.

[Descronan]

I don't know that it is worth the trouble.  For example is AP ammo worth more than normal ammo?   At the same time you get half the ammo so would you get a lower BV because you have less ammo.

From my experience, YES!

In Alpha Strike you gain both standard AND alternate ammo. This is a huge advantage as the player can choose the best option for standard ammo or alternate. So Alternate Ammo is almost always a bonus with no penalty.

For example, I may only use AP ammo against slow units with lots of armor. That +1 to hit mod isn't a big deal against an Atlas. But against the VTOL, I need a better chance to hit and will likely kill it with any successful hit.

We house-ruled to charge the value of the alternate ammo in PV. So AC1/2/2 would cost 2 PV. LRM 2/3/3 would cost 3 PV. Though very low numbers, it made a difference in game play and made things more balanced.

[theagent]

I don't know that it is worth the trouble.  For example is AP ammo worth more than normal ammo?   At the same time you get half the ammo so would you get a lower BV because you have less ammo.

That's the thing.  Per TacOps, most of the autocannon alternate ammos don't get a BV boost -- only tracer & Caseless -- so there's not much of a benefit from them.  There are more types with the artillery & missile weapons, but even then I'm not sure it's that much of a boost.

And to be honest...if you were going to try to figure out the PV cost of having alternate ammunition, you then have to deal with additional problems.

• How do you calculate the PV effect, for example, of armor-piercing AC ammo?  It has the chance of a critical roll (even if the Armor pips aren't depleted), but does less total damage to the Armor.  How does that get calculated?
• How do you calculate PV for alternate ammo that doesn't do any actual damage (like MagPulse)
• How do you account for the number of ammo bins a unit has, & how that affects the AS conversion when there are less than 10 shots?  Standard Archer-2R has 4 tons of ammo, enough for 12 volleys per launcher...but once you start specifying alternate ammo for each bin, all of a sudden you're looking at only 3 shots per launcher per bin (6 shots total)...so the PV potential gets adjusted down to account for the lack of ammo.  And then you have to start actually tracking the alternate ammo shots on the AS card.

I could maybe see using some sort of agreement among players that a particular design can only have as many different ammo types (including standard) as the design in CBT has ammo bins, but I think trying to calculate a PV cost would end up being so granular & time-consuming that you'd have to prep well in advance of the game...drastically reducing the fun factor.  I think the current rule of "everyone agrees to use it or not use it at the start", & then pick the ammo type you want to use that turn if you even have the appropriate ability to use it, will probably work just fine.

[Elmoth]

This os Alpha strike. There is no ammo bins here. All ammo is limitless.

[theagent]

This os Alpha strike. There is no ammo bins here. All ammo is limitless.

Except damage gets dropped down if the base design has less than 10 shots per weapon.  And I think that's more because it's the extremely rare AS game that lasts more than 10 rounds, not that they actually believe there's unlimited ammo (this isn't God Mode on DOOM 1 & 2)...

[MechMike]

That's the thing.  Per TacOps, most of the autocannon alternate ammos don't get a BV boost -- only tracer & Caseless -- so there's not much of a benefit from them.  There are more types with the artillery & missile weapons, but even then I'm not sure it's that much of a boost.

And to be honest...if you were going to try to figure out the PV cost of having alternate ammunition, you then have to deal with additional problems.

• How do you calculate the PV effect, for example, of armor-piercing AC ammo?  It has the chance of a critical roll (even if the Armor pips aren't depleted), but does less total damage to the Armor.  How does that get calculated?
• How do you calculate PV for alternate ammo that doesn't do any actual damage (like MagPulse)
• How do you account for the number of ammo bins a unit has, & how that affects the AS conversion when there are less than 10 shots?  Standard Archer-2R has 4 tons of ammo, enough for 12 volleys per launcher...but once you start specifying alternate ammo for each bin, all of a sudden you're looking at only 3 shots per launcher per bin (6 shots total)...so the PV potential gets adjusted down to account for the lack of ammo.  And then you have to start actually tracking the alternate ammo shots on the AS card.

I could maybe see using some sort of agreement among players that a particular design can only have as many different ammo types (including standard) as the design in CBT has ammo bins, but I think trying to calculate a PV cost would end up being so granular & time-consuming that you'd have to prep well in advance of the game...drastically reducing the fun factor.  I think the current rule of "everyone agrees to use it or not use it at the start", & then pick the ammo type you want to use that turn if you even have the appropriate ability to use it, will probably work just fine.

I think I'm missing a couple of things:

- AC or LRM specials don't actually give you ANY advantage UNLESS you're using special ammo, right?
- In the normal rules you can pick ONE type of special ammo?

It seems like the cost of the ammo is built in, since otherwise, unless you just wanted the satisfaction of saying "I'm going to do less damage than I could by using just my AC damage" there's no point in having the specials (and having them included in the base cost)?

Am I off base?