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Author Topic: Water Hull Breach  (Read 526 times)

wildkadabra

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Water Hull Breach
« on: 28 March 2021, 00:39:07 »
Hi, I'm new to Alpha Strike, I had a question regarding hull breaches. If your mech is in level 1 water (partially submerged and getting partial cover), do hull breaches apply, or does your mech need to be fully submerged in water of depth 2 or more for it to happen?

Inspector2311

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Re: Water Hull Breach
« Reply #1 on: 06 April 2021, 22:46:31 »
I would also like to know this.  The book makes it clear that "fully submerged" and "partially submerged" are two very different things, but then goes on to use the term "submerged" ambiguously, particularly in the sections where it describes the criticals related to being in water...

nckestrel

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Re: Water Hull Breach
« Reply #2 on: 07 April 2021, 06:41:03 »
If it just says submerged, then it means partially or fully submerged.
Partially submerged units do check for hull breach.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/alpha-strike/answered-partially-submerged-units-critical-hits/msg1554731/#msg1554731
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Inspector2311

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Re: Water Hull Breach
« Reply #3 on: 13 April 2021, 12:02:05 »
Thank you!  I had tried searching, but for whatever reason did not find that.

Kell

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Re: Water Hull Breach
« Reply #4 on: 04 May 2021, 16:26:36 »
Why would anyone go into water then? Risk is too high

Minnow

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Re: Water Hull Breach
« Reply #5 on: 04 May 2021, 16:30:12 »
I am sorry but I don't understand why we are continually taking away every advantage of using terrain in Alpha Strike. Fist it was trees, now water. Submerged has a definition and units in 1" of water are not submerged.

Why get partial cover if it's assumed the locations in cover are the only ones getting hit?

I can understand getting a hull breach roll in 1" of water if you don't have armor left but every hit... This ruling doesn't make sense.
« Last Edit: 04 May 2021, 16:36:33 by Minnow »
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nckestrel

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Re: Water Hull Breach
« Reply #6 on: 04 May 2021, 19:37:47 »
There was no change within versions of Alpha Strike.
Alpha Strike 1st printing:
Quote
"To be considered underwater, a unit must be completely submerged"
"Mech units that are standing in Water terrain at a depth (negative elevation) level of 1 inch will receive partial cover benefits from the water. Because the water surrounds the ’Mech, this partial cover applies even if the attacker is standing at a higher level than the target and would ordinarily be able to see the target’s legs. If a unit is completely submerged within water (such as a ’Mech unit standing in water features 2 or more inches deep), LOS to (and from) the submerged unit is considered to be blocked." 

We've clearly already have a difference between the concepts of completely submerged and (merely) submerged.  In water, submerged, gets partial cover.  But you have to completely submerged (therefore something different) to block LOS completely. You are not underwater if you are merely in water, you must be completely submerged.

Quote
"Attacks against submerged units can only be made between units that are also submerged (see the To-Hit Modifiers Table, p. 37), or by between submerged units and units operating on the surface of the same water feature using torpedoes (see TOR# special ability,p. 48)."
If we take submerged to mean completely submerged only, then unit completely submerged cannot attack a unit in level 1 water (those units are not completely submerged). But they can attack units on the surface, so implying this weird you put a foot under the water and you can't be attacked, but if you are floating on top you can be.  So it must mean (merely) submerged as it says, not completely submerged, which it doesn't say.  Again we already have a split in the two terms, submerged means partially or completely submerged.

So we come to hull breaches
Quote
"However, to reflect the danger of flooding due to hull breaches, every successful attack against a submerged unit generates a Critical Hit chance, even if there is no structure damage (see Step 7: Roll for Critical Hits, p. 40). If a submerged unit loses all of its armor, it automatically sinks and is considered destroyed."

Doesn't require completely submerged.  Any type of submerging counts.

The change made was to specifically define everywhere that had exclusively the (merely) submerged as "partially submerged", to more clearly separate it from "completely submerged".  It did not take anywhere that said completely submerged and change it to apply to partially submerged.  Anywhere that says completely submerged now has said it since the 1st printing. 

Why allow 'mechs in level 1 water to take hull breaches?  Alpha Strike doesn't have falling, but falling in level 1 water does cause hull breaches. So if you are attacked while in water, it assumes you will fall at some point (AS turns are roughly three total warfare turns of attacks) and therefore suffer the hull breach. 
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Minnow

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Re: Water Hull Breach
« Reply #7 on: 05 May 2021, 07:50:02 »
Thank you for the explanation.
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Crackerb0x

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Re: Water Hull Breach
« Reply #8 on: 05 May 2021, 08:18:50 »
Why would anyone go into water then? Risk is too high

If you move at least 1" or more you get your full TMM, right? So with that in mind, I could see scenarios where water would be advantageous to high TMM, low armor IF or Artillery spotter Mechs for extra defensive bonuses with minimal risk of something horrible that would happen anyway if they get hit for any significant damage.

If I had a water feature or a woods and wanted a light mech to spot for IF, the IF would take penalties from the spotter in woods, which would not be applicable in water, I'd choose the water for my spotter.

Really any high TMM unit that can move in water and doesn't care about how far they go can use water with less risk because of how few hits they can take regardless of the terrain they're in.

Crackerb0x

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Re: Water Hull Breach
« Reply #9 on: 05 May 2021, 08:36:42 »
In the same paragraph quoted from page 48 about crits and hull breaches, it says the following

Quote
With the exception of damage from energy attacks (weapon attack from units that have the ENE special ability), all damage from underwater weapon attacks that hit a submerged unit is reduced by half (round down, to a minimum of 1).

Are all weapon attacks against a submerged unit an "underwater weapon attack" or are "underwater weapon attacks" attacks performed by a unit that is fully submerged.

nckestrel

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Re: Water Hull Breach
« Reply #10 on: 05 May 2021, 08:45:53 »
Underwater is defined as completely submerged (in the underwater section?).  If the attacker is completely submerged, it’s an underwater attack.
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