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Author Topic: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?  (Read 1027 times)

Hellraiser

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #30 on: 14 June 2021, 15:49:59 »
From Xotl’s clarification, excess critical hits will not transfer, transfer only happens if the ‘Mech was constructed without anything to break in the side torsos, but if the crit is already broken, there should be no transfer. Crit-padding is still useful, so I would leave 1 in each side torso. The rest can go into the arms, ct, hd.

Hmm, i interpreted it a bit differently, so that if everything crittable was already destroyed in the location, they would transfer until the entire internal structure was destroyed..... (aslong as they were not done in the same phase as the one that destroyed the last crittable thing in the location)

Guess i'll re-read it and see how i interpret it this time :D

I don’t have TW on me, I’m not home. You could ask for clarification.

I read it that way because Xotl made a point of mentioning how rare empty side torsos are, mentioning the Penthesilea as an example. I would think crit transfer would be much more common if you could destroy 1-2 side torso crits, then have the rest transfer. But then again, I was not familiar with this rule.


Gel has the right of it.
It's PHASE based basically,  it's not about constructed w/ 0 or not, its having 0 at the start of the damage phase.

So a single crit is nice, but, having at least 3-4 is better since you can then take a crit or 2 in a single turn & have a follow up hit trigger another couple.




Considering you had 10 HS to place, where would you recommend ?

Something like the following ?
1 in HD
2 in CT
2 in RA
2 in RT
1 in LA
2 in LT

The Enforcer starts with 2 SHS in each ST IIRC + the Ammo/SL.

Assuming I'm remembering that right,  IF,   you wanted to keep the Refit class/difficulty down, then, you won't be adding them to the CT/Head since your not changing anything there.
Also, based on that I would not add any to the LA where the LL is already in place.


I would spread them out to the RA, RT, & LT since your already making changes there.
In the design I suggested which is 2 LL, ML, & 1.5 Armor w/ 6 "new" SHS added, I'd probably slap them in 2 per section  (RA, RT, LT)
Maybe 3 in the arm & only 1 in the LT if you wanted to keep the ST the same at 4 each.
« Last Edit: 14 June 2021, 16:29:00 by Hellraiser »
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Daryk

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #31 on: 14 June 2021, 16:00:40 »
At least three HS in each side torso is the right answer in my opinion.  That keeps a single bad roll from going to your CT (where it's almost guaranteed to be Engine of Gyro).

Also, a Small Laser is NOT an effective Anti-Infantry weapon.  If that's the only reason you're keeping it... don't.

S.gage

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #32 on: 14 June 2021, 16:14:48 »
...

The Enforcer starts with 2 SGS in each ST IIRC + the Ammo/SL.

Assuming I'm remembering that right,  IF,   you wanted to keep the Refit class/difficulty down, then, you won't be adding them to the CT/Head since your not changing anything there.
Also, based on that I would not add any to the LA where the LL is already in place.

...

That was an earlier observation on the thread, my suggestion (again, unfamiliar with the transfer rule, very sorry for that) was to move heat sinks to protect the LL and PPC only if it did not increase the difficulty of the refit. And Daryk has it right, the three sample ENFs were modified from the -4R, which has 3 SHS + 1 SL/ammo (I just did it, so it’s fresh in my memory).
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Daryk

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #33 on: 14 June 2021, 16:49:18 »
Oh, and welcome to no longer having to prove you're human gelanin!  :thumbsup:

S.gage

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #34 on: 14 June 2021, 17:15:07 »
Oh, and welcome to no longer having to prove you're human gelanin!  :thumbsup:

Don't worry Gelanin, your thread was good and got a lot of interest!
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trboturtle

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #35 on: 14 June 2021, 18:10:42 »
I did a variant of that years ago and called it a Headhunter.....

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LastChanceCav

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #36 on: 14 June 2021, 21:58:38 »
I've been down the energy Enforcer road a few times myself. As mentioned, the energy mods are are pretty common optimization people gravitate  to.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/design-challenge-3025-tech-(no-ammo)/msg264607/#msg264607

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Snimm

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #37 on: 15 June 2021, 20:30:40 »
Or, you could chuck most of your heat concerns and just go with 10 heat sinks, a PPC, and the AC/10.  Yes, you'd have to pick one gun or the other much of the time (using the PPC as much as you can possibly stand it), but when you need it, you can potentially trigger a stagger check.

The Enforcer does better as the lightest member of a heavy lance than as the heaviest member of a light lance, IMHO.
There's no reason you'd have to risk yourself unnecessarily, either.  You would have a definite fire support configuration; find a bigger Mech and support it as much as you can.

Of course, I understand a lot of people hate walking the heat scale tightrope, and you'd be having to constantly eye it.
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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #38 on: 15 June 2021, 20:40:08 »
Without some kind of house rule enhancing Autocannons, energy is (almost) always better than ballistics, until we get into Gauss territory. A bit like saying "what if I replaced the AC/20 on x unit with a battery of medium lasers?" Yeah... that's almost always going to be better.
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gelanin

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #39 on: 18 June 2021, 04:09:50 »
Oh, and welcome to no longer having to prove you're human gelanin!  :thumbsup:

Thanks :D

gelanin

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #40 on: 18 June 2021, 04:20:15 »
Well, since this repair/refit is part of a longer rpg-campaign, where my character is the chosen/elected commander of a fairly small merc unit, mostly made up of medium mechs (enforcers, centurions, phoenix hawk, blackjack etc), i'm also trying to make this refit make sense in the campaign, not nessecerily making what is most optimal from a min/max perspective, though ofcourse i like "better". Also being out in the ass-end of nowhere, or atleast close enough to that (Inner End System) means it might not be trivial to do all the changes.

So ignoring armor, there are 2 locations where all internal structure has been destroyed. The right arm, and the right leg, and there is some internal structure damage to right torso (SHS destroyed) and left leg.

So, i think it makes sense to keep the left arm (the one with the LL) as unmodified as possible, while doing most of the modifications on the Right Arm, and perhaps some on the Side torso's.

This was the perhaps the primary reason why i thought of the LL+PPC variant, because the right-arm would have to be rebuilt completely anyways.

So perhaps the following makes the most sense (with the rules about transfering crits in mind):

LT: Remove Small Laser, Add SHS for a total of 3 SHS.
RT: Remove AC/10 Ammo, Add & replace SHS for a total of 3 SHS.
RA: Add new arm with SULA-Actuators + PPC + 5 SHS (completely filling all crit slots on RA)

Then add 0.5t of armor around from removing the SL.


The only reason i might do it differently, is that my GM said he would not transfer crits the way described, which means having 3 SHS in each torso is not nessecery, and it would make more sense to add 2 to CT and 1 to Head, to provide a little bit of crit-padding there....
« Last Edit: 18 June 2021, 04:33:37 by gelanin »

Daryk

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #41 on: 18 June 2021, 05:19:52 »
If you want to live dangerously, consider a Blazer Cannon!  :D

If AOE weapons are your thing, a Thumper Artillery Cannon is only 10 tons.  8)

Both are available in 3025, though as "Experimental" tech...  ^-^

gelanin

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #42 on: 18 June 2021, 05:51:26 »
If you want to live dangerously, consider a Blazer Cannon!  :D

If AOE weapons are your thing, a Thumper Artillery Cannon is only 10 tons.  8)

Both are available in 3025, though as "Experimental" tech...  ^-^

Getting hold of those in the periphery areas of the fed suns sounds a bit unlikely :-)

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #43 on: 18 June 2021, 06:33:29 »
I've always fluffed Blazer Cannons as a crate with two Large Laser cores and a few rolls of duct tape...  ^-^

Hellraiser

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #44 on: 18 June 2021, 09:39:48 »
The only reason i might do it differently, is that my GM said he would not transfer crits the way described, which means having 3 SHS in each torso is not nessecery, and it would make more sense to add 2 to CT and 1 to Head, to provide a little bit of crit-padding there.... 
So he's not playing the game by the game rules, lol.   I guess that is one way to do it.
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Karack Blackstone

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #45 on: 18 June 2021, 14:54:25 »
PPC's are a near headshot baseline.

A PPC and LL backed up by a decent spread of ML's and HS's is going to carry you far.

PPC's are a psychological weapon as well, while the LL is no slouch it doesn't auto force a crit roll on the HD when it hits.

gelanin

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #46 on: 20 June 2021, 08:17:37 »
So he's not playing the game by the game rules, lol.   I guess that is one way to do it.

Doubt it changes things dramatically. In my experience it is fairly rare you get side-torso crits, without having lost all of your internal structure anyways, atleast on medium mechs, though i guess it could happen a couple of times. 

guardiandashi

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #47 on: 20 June 2021, 14:13:07 »
I know its a bit late...

but here is a mini hammer version of the enforcer, it runs a bit hot, but effectively cooler than a marauder... unless it jumps

Code: [Select]
              BattleMech Technical Readout

Type/Model:    Enforcer ENF-4R
Tech:          Inner Sphere / 3025
Config:        Biped BattleMech
Rules:         Level 1, Standard design

Mass:          50 tons
Chassis:       Dorwinion Standard
Power Plant:   200 Nissan Fusion
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets:     4 McCloud Specials Standard Jump Jets
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor Type:    Starshield Standard
Armament:     
  2 PPCs
Manufacturer:  Achernar BattleMechs
  Location:    New Avalon
Communications System:  Achernar Electronics HICS-11
Targeting & Tracking System:  Federated Hunter

==Overview:==
     Created as a result of Duke Davion's interest in autocannons, the ENF-4R Enforcer performs as a mobile barrage vehicle. In this key combat role, it will lay down a fast and withering pattern of fire with its autocannon and lasers, either as a prelude to an offensive or to blunt an approaching enemy's attack.
     The Enforcer is based on ideas gleaned from detailed plans of an unbuilt 'Mech design that Davion forces discovered in an engineering library at Achernar. Though those plans called for two medium lasers on the left arm, Davion engineers discovered that the 'Mech was structurally strong enough to handle a heavy laser instead. This proved a better weapon because the heavy laser's range matches that of a Class 10 autocannon. The Enforcer was commissioned by House Davion in 2777.

==Capabilities:==
     Besides being a barrage vehicle, the Enforcer can also serve passibly as a trooper 'Mech. Though it has no hands, the 'Mech is a good brawler with good jump capability. Its front torso armor allows it to stand exposed to attack for short periods, while pounding out its own punishment. What the Enforcer cannot take are attacks to its rear torso, where its armor is weaker than that of even some light 'Mechs.
     The autocannon, built by government weapon works, is an excellent large-caliber model. The weapon is packed within a cooling jacket, which doubles as protection for its sensitive innards when the 'Mech is in a brawl. The autocannon's massive recoil is also efficiently controlled, which reduces the amount of 'Mech shudder and permits the pilot to fire his other weapons simultaneously without worrying about his aim.
     The only real problem with the mating of autocannon and 'Mech was, predictably, the feed system. Many an Enforcer prototype has its weapon jam. In some cases, the jamming round exploded, blowing off the 'Mech's entire arm and injuring the MechWarrior.
     As good as the autocannon is, the Enforcer's one major flaw is that it can carry only ten rounds for it. Attempts to boost the number of rounds carried have proved either unreliable or have slowed the 'Mech down.
     To meet this problem, Enforcers use big, ten-round clips that are easily slipped into and out of the 'Mech's back. If possible, a truck and crane system are parked close to Enforcers during battle to allow quick reloading of the 'Mech's autocannon. If the battle is too mobile and the Enforcer has no opportunities to reload, its pilot has no option but to mother his ten shots.
     In the hands of a good MechWarrior, the Enforcer can stand up well against almost all other 'Mechs in one-on-one combat. Only those 'Mechs whose armor can withstand more than two or three autocannon or laser-fire hits are too tough for the Enforcer to handle alone.
     The Enforcer is also an excellent city sniper. If its pilot is familiar with the city, he can hit and run many times, returning to base to be reloaded while the enemy force flounders about looking for him.

==Battle History:==
     Used throughout the history of the Federated Suns, the Enforcer has participated honorably in countless battles.
     In the defense of New Avalon, unattached Enforcers were assembled into a sniper troop whose purpose was to harass the enemy as it marched through the deserted city of Selby. Though all these Enforcers were eventually hunted down and destroyed, it was only after they had inflicted much damage, buying the Davion forces enough time to regroup.
     At the offense on Capra in the First Succession War, the Enforcers of the 2nd Crucis Lancers are credited with laying down such a concentrated barrage of autocannon fire that the opposing forces withdrew before the Enforcers had even finished. A minor legend grew up around that engagement. Lieutenant Cyril Sombelbime, commander of an all-Enforcer lance, was heard exhorting his group to fire "until your cannon glows. If need be, until it explodes!" According to the story, the lieutenant's autocannon did indeed start to glow, and its eventual explosion killed the prophetic officer.
     In the assault on Tannil in the Second Succession War, Enforcers were doubly important. As part of the initial group of 'Mechs to drop onto the planet, they were responsible for setting up a secure perimeter within which the remainder of the assault forces could safely land. After all the troops were down and assembled, Enforcers then participated in the move toward the city objective.

==Variants:==
     In an effort to alleviate the Enforcer's worst flaws, engineers have been attempting to up the number of shells the 'Mech can carry. Removing the small laser and implanting another ton of ammo seemed the obvious route. The problem is that the linkages and mechanics of sending a shell from the left torso to the right arm is extremely complicated. Even worse, the only way to bypass the 'Mech's engine is to route the ammo toward the back. Such routing would mean that even a minor hit to the 'Mech's back would totally jam its autocannon.
     Efforts are therefore now underway to rebuild the Enforcer's entire torso, using a newer and more compact engine. Whether this will result in a new Enforcer model or a completely new 'Mech design remains to be seen.

==Notable 'Mechs & MechWarriors:==
MechWarrior Colin McBurnham
     Of proud Scottish descent, Colin is well known for cursing in Scotch Gaelic during the heat of battle. His 'Mech, the Bannockburn, is painted in his family's dark green, brown, and blue kilt colors. Its unmistakable appearance sometimes so intimidates McBurnham's foes that he can make an easy kill.
     Colin's specialty is city fighting. He loves the tense anticipation of waiting for an opponent to blunder into his gunsight. One tactic for which he is famous has him hiding in a dark alley while a column of enemy 'Mechs passes by. Just as the last in line moves past, Colin reaches out to grab and kill it, without so much as a shout or scrape of metal.  After the first such score, Colin's regimental commander found it almost impossible to believe the man could kill so silently. In the next battle, he tagged along with Colin, waiting for a demonstration of this extraordinary skill. Colin complied, impressing as well as terrifying even his commander.

MechWarrior Sarah Nealson
     Tall and beautiful, Sarah has earned a reputation as a fearless fighter who will stand up and face withering enemy fire without the least hesitation. In turn, her aim is deadly. As a member of the Davion Heavy Guards, she has had plenty of chances to demonstrate her devil's eye.

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model:    Enforcer ENF-4R
Mass:          50 tons

Equipment:                                 Crits    Mass
Int. Struct.:  83 pts Standard               0      5.00
Engine:        200                  6      8.50
   Walking MP:   4
   Running MP:   6
   Jumping MP:   4
Heat Sinks:     16 Single                    8      6.00
 (Heat Sink Loc: 1 LA, 1 RA, 3 LT, 3 RT)
Gyro:                                        4      2.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors:                5      3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA    R: Sh+UA+LA       14       .00
Armor Factor:  152 pts Standard              0      9.50

                          Internal    Armor
                          Structure   Value
   Head:                      3          9     
   Center Torso:             16         25     
   Center Torso (Rear):                  4     
   L/R Side Torso:           12      18/18     
   L/R Side Torso (Rear):              3/3     
   L/R Arm:                   8      16/16     
   L/R Leg:                  12      20/20     

Weapons and Equipment    Loc  Heat  Ammo   Crits    Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 PPC                    RA     10           3      7.00
1 PPC                    LA     10           3      7.00
4 Standard Jump Jets:                        4      2.00
 (Jump Jet Loc: 2 LL, 2 RL)
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                         20          47     50.00
Crits & Tons Left:                          31       .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        3,680,500 C-Bills
Battle Value:      1,004
Cost per BV:       3,665.84
Weapon Value:      803 / 803 (Ratio = .80 / .80)
Damage Factors:    SRDmg = 10;  MRDmg = 10;  LRDmg = 4
BattleForce2:      MP: 4J,  Armor/Structure: 4/4
                   Damage PB/M/L: 2/2/2,  Overheat: 1
                   Class: MM;  Point Value: 10

Daryk

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #48 on: 20 June 2021, 15:45:57 »
With the jump jets, it feels more like a Battleaxe than a Warhammer to me...

guardiandashi

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #49 on: 20 June 2021, 16:38:04 »
the version I threw up sacrifices support weapons for more armor
I could also see going the other way, IE MORE weapons !!!
so take the standard ENF-4R
replace both main guns for 2 ppc's, get rid of 1/2 ton of armor (i am thinking 2-3 points off each leg, and 1-2 points off the torso's) that would allow you to mount a second small laser then sacrifice 2 heat sinks (total of 14 instead of 16) to mount 2 medium lasers
that would give you: 2 ppc's 2 medium lasers, and 2 small lasers.  at which point its basically a lighter jumping warhammer, without the ammo weapons.

TigerShark

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #50 on: 20 June 2021, 18:38:41 »
With the jump jets, it feels more like a Battleaxe than a Warhammer to me...
Man, do I love the Battleaxe and Hammerhands. So easy to upgrade with advanced tech and make into monsters.
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Daryk

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #51 on: 20 June 2021, 18:57:41 »
Jump jets are indeed your friends!  8)

gelanin

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #52 on: 21 June 2021, 12:08:11 »
the version I threw up sacrifices support weapons for more armor
I could also see going the other way, IE MORE weapons !!!
so take the standard ENF-4R
replace both main guns for 2 ppc's, get rid of 1/2 ton of armor (i am thinking 2-3 points off each leg, and 1-2 points off the torso's) that would allow you to mount a second small laser then sacrifice 2 heat sinks (total of 14 instead of 16) to mount 2 medium lasers
that would give you: 2 ppc's 2 medium lasers, and 2 small lasers.  at which point its basically a lighter jumping warhammer, without the ammo weapons.

That sounds very hot.... :)

guardiandashi

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Re: ENF-4R with PPC viable ?
« Reply #53 on: 21 June 2021, 16:52:23 »
That sounds very hot.... :)
well it has the potential to be, max heat build up with a jumping alpha is 32 minus 14 so 0 to 18 heat in 1 turn, on the other hand if everything hits you are looking at 36 damage done.