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Author Topic: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)  (Read 32890 times)

glitterboy2098

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #60 on: 01 March 2022, 20:44:36 »
figuring out how to handle Predacons will be tricky. both lore wise and the fact many of them use alt modes that.. just don't really work well with the nebula california ruleset. so they'll require rather more effort for adaption.

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #61 on: 01 March 2022, 20:57:59 »
figuring out how to handle Predacons will be tricky. both lore wise and the fact many of them use alt modes that.. just don't really work well with the nebula california ruleset. so they'll require rather more effort for adaption.

One possibility is the Predacons are an offshoot faction that was originally designed to protect the dome or, alternatively, were protectors of another dome, linked to the same faction that built the Democratic Congolomerate AutoMechs.  They may seek to steal genetic samples from the AxiMal faction to attempt to use to reterraform the planet, rebuild their own dome, or may simply have been programmed to destroy AxiMal facilities due to their link to the Autonomous Barony of Primus.
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RifleMech

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #62 on: 01 March 2022, 21:42:45 »
Best not to think too hard about it; but as it happens, Mech turrets DO predate the Star League, so...

Same here. So let's not.

 >:D

 :thumbsup:


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G1 Blitzwing, in his original toy specs, was said to shoot explosive shells from his main gun. Of course, those same specs also mentioned the launchers in his wings fire concussion missiles, and he has a sword and a gyrojet gun in robot mode, so... yeah.

Yeah, its a toss up between what's written and what's animated, or what the vehicle forms actually have. I kind of went down the middle but they could each be a different variant.

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I can see it, but again, I see remote-controlled drones as a vulnerability compared to on-board AIs.

It is. I think ECCM would help but it's still vulnerable. The bright spot is that the Drone's Drone is more at risk than the Drone is.


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G'nope. They don't even have FTL travel; It probably took a good hundred years for that Grimdark to land on Toreel for the opening fiction of NebCal to happen, so a trek to the much more distant systems of the Star Empire would have been possibly taken them more time than the AutoMechs collectively even existed.

That's cool. I just wondered as they do seem to posses Luminescent Vibro-Weapons, the IE knew how Blasters worked, and the shield technology dates back to the 21st century.


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Heheheh. Cute!

Sure, if you wanted to root it in human origins. That could work. (In at least one non-BT story I've written, the use of a digitally projected face on a robot shell was pretty much how a character gave his machine its personality. Granted, they did it in Robocop 2, but it makes perfect sense as a shortcut toward putting an expressive "human" face on a clunky mecha body.)

 ;D

Cool.  :thumbsup:



(based on what was my first real exposure to Transformers media, their addition to the netflix war for cybertron series giving the idea of them co-existing with the G1 types, and the fact that they're getting an origin film for the live action series this year..)

They're getting a movie?  That's cool.

I like the write ups. They really capture the feel of them. I do wonder about the heat sinks though. I know Heat Sinks outside the engines take crits but you also have them taking weight. Fusion Engines come with 10 heat sinks so their weight wouldn't need to be added in. They could for ICEs though.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #63 on: 01 March 2022, 22:15:02 »
They're getting a movie?  That's cool.
well sort of.. the next installment of the live action franchise is supposed to be out either late this year or next year (i've seen conflicting dates given). Transformers: Rise of the Beasts, in which Optimus Primal, Rhinox, Cheetor, and Airazor are currently slated to be included. concept art got leaked awhile back of what is likely Optimus Primal

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I like the write ups. They really capture the feel of them. I do wonder about the heat sinks though. I know Heat Sinks outside the engines take crits but you also have them taking weight. Fusion Engines come with 10 heat sinks so their weight wouldn't need to be added in. They could for ICEs though.
they don't actually take up weight, it is just a quirk of the megameklab program. thankfully the bestial automechs are fairly simple, and i could use cargo slots as both crit space and tonnage for the conversion gear.

i figure that the flying types can be aeromechs (for the avian and pterosaur types), while the bug-flyers can be VTOL-mechs. honestly the hardest part if dinobot and BW-Megatron.. a velociraptor and Tyrannosaurus rex respectively. since their beast modes are bipeds as are their robot forms, they don't fit well. though i'm thinking i might want to take a closer look at Grimdark in the book, to see if he is still a T-rex like Grimlock, or if he got adapted.

One possibility is the Predacons are an offshoot faction that was originally designed to protect the dome or, alternatively, were protectors of another dome, linked to the same faction that built the Democratic Congolomerate AutoMechs.  They may seek to steal genetic samples from the AxiMal faction to attempt to use to reterraform the planet, rebuild their own dome, or may simply have been programmed to destroy AxiMal facilities due to their link to the Autonomous Barony of Primus.
considered that. also considered having them be a sort of "internal dissent" faction sharing the same chassis selection but having their own ideas about how to proceed. like say, putting less priority on defending the ecosystem within a dome and more on mining operations to exploit minerals found within the canyon.

though i do like the idea that the AxiMaLs are aligned with the AutoBoP's, and the DemoCron's backing the other side.

idea weenie

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #64 on: 01 March 2022, 23:22:53 »
considered that. also considered having them be a sort of "internal dissent" faction sharing the same chassis selection but having their own ideas about how to proceed. like say, putting less priority on defending the ecosystem within a dome and more on mining operations to exploit minerals found within the canyon.

though i do like the idea that the AxiMaLs are aligned with the AutoBoP's, and the DemoCron's backing the other side.

So the Aximals will tend to use ores that are easily visible/mine-able from the cavern walls, while the Predacons are willing to use drilling rigs to reach the deeper ores and accept the environmental damage in the process?

This gives the Predacons an obvious advantage, though the Aximals have less programming errors due to their actions being more in line with their hard-coded environmental imperatives?

RifleMech

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #65 on: 02 March 2022, 01:37:51 »
well sort of.. the next installment of the live action franchise is supposed to be out either late this year or next year (i've seen conflicting dates given). Transformers: Rise of the Beasts, in which Optimus Primal, Rhinox, Cheetor, and Airazor are currently slated to be included. concept art got leaked awhile back of what is likely Optimus Primal

That's cool. I think. I hope it's good.

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they don't actually take up weight, it is just a quirk of the megameklab program. thankfully the bestial automechs are fairly simple, and i could use cargo slots as both crit space and tonnage for the conversion gear.

Ah. That's cool. :)
 
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i figure that the flying types can be aeromechs (for the avian and pterosaur types), while the bug-flyers can be VTOL-mechs. honestly the hardest part if dinobot and BW-Megatron.. a velociraptor and Tyrannosaurus rex respectively. since their beast modes are bipeds as are their robot forms, they don't fit well. though i'm thinking i might want to take a closer look at Grimdark in the book, to see if he is still a T-rex like Grimlock, or if he got adapted.


You could fluff it as their legs unfolding or extending during the conversion process so they could become a bit taller.

Luciora

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #66 on: 02 March 2022, 02:54:54 »
Well poop.  I missed the suggestion of primitive Wolvie/Shaz/and Griff when I made the order.   xp. Guess these guys are gonna look a bit more 3rd gen than G1 😅

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #67 on: 02 March 2022, 03:46:09 »
Personally , use the generation ‘Mech you like the best. ;)
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Luciora

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #68 on: 02 March 2022, 11:02:33 »
First part of my order came in.   2 Griffin Classics and I'm glad I ordered a pair of the PP Griffin arms.  Will make modding a bit easier for the AutoCons without shoulder armor.

Wrangler

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #69 on: 02 March 2022, 11:17:49 »
Personally , use the generation ‘Mech you like the best. ;)
For Groundwave's new body.  Your using same rounded head for Griffin (assume the Nighthawk drone launches from there.) with similar radio antennas that Thunderbolt body he had was using with no LRM 5?  Right?
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #70 on: 02 March 2022, 11:40:00 »
Iirc he's got an external comm module instead of the LRM pod.
The head is probably replaced with an armored housing instead of a canopy, since the AI computer goes in it. The drone probably is stored behind a hatch on the chest off to one side.
« Last Edit: 02 March 2022, 11:42:44 by glitterboy2098 »

Luciora

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #71 on: 02 March 2022, 11:59:23 »
Doing picture research, I kind of wish there wasn't a complete tech restriction or a list of "only can use specific weapons", as I'd totally see Thunderbolt-5s being a thing for many of the shoulder launchers. 

Or I can just mentally picture the LRM being a single high explosive warhead that explodes within proximity and does damage like an LRM splash.  🤔


Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #72 on: 02 March 2022, 12:07:22 »
Iirc he's got an external comm module instead of the LRM pod.
The head is probably replaced with an armored housing instead of a canopy, since the AI computer goes in it. The drone probably is stored behind a hatch on the chest off to one side.
For Groundwave's new body.  Your using same rounded head for Griffin (assume the Nighthawk drone launches from there.) with similar radio antennas that Thunderbolt body he had was using with no LRM 5?  Right?

Basic layout is going to be Unseen Griffin.  I've got a plastic Unseen Griffin I was planning to mod, but it's already painted up in Niops Association (ie. TH parade) colors: white, with blue and grey trim, so I'm loathe to modify it.  Instead, I'm thinking of ordering an unpainted one off eBay, and use that one instead.  Not sure how I want to handle the mods for it, other than using an Ostscout jump jet pack for the jump jets: I'd always intended Groundwave, in either form, to have folding satellite dishes, etc.  On the GRF body they'd replace the LRM pack, on the VeeMech/TDR body, they replaced the SRM rack, though my plastic mini for Groundwave doesn't have the missile pod, either, and I haven't figured out how to do the antennas.

Doing picture research, I kind of wish there wasn't a complete tech restriction or a list of "only can use specific weapons", as I'd totally see Thunderbolt-5s being a thing for many of the shoulder launchers. 

Or I can just mentally picture the LRM being a single high explosive warhead that explodes within proximity and does damage like an LRM splash.  🤔

The only stated restriction in the book is that, for the most part, they're limited to weapons developed by 2750 (well, 2751, since they've got ER PPCs), with the exception of melee weapons, but I know I wouldn't worry too much about that - Thunderbolt missile launchers don't seem like a huge stretch for local industry to come up with.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #73 on: 02 March 2022, 13:22:39 »
I could see thunderbolts and light AC's, since they're fairly straight forward.

Luciora

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #74 on: 02 March 2022, 22:07:00 »
Second batch arrived and the Zyphros....thats a match for Mirage for sure!

Luciora

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #75 on: 03 March 2022, 03:48:39 »
Mirage is coming along nicely.   Planning a chest part incorporating the nose fins, while keeping the driver area of the Zyphros as the Assassin's head.  The turret will be repurposed as the stabilizer mount and rest of the body.

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #76 on: 03 March 2022, 06:58:46 »
Basic layout is going to be Unseen Griffin.  I've got a plastic Unseen Griffin I was planning to mod, but it's already painted up in Niops Association (ie. TH parade) colors: white, with blue and grey trim, so I'm loathe to modify it.  Instead, I'm thinking of ordering an unpainted one off eBay, and use that one instead.  Not sure how I want to handle the mods for it, other than using an Ostscout jump jet pack for the jump jets: I'd always intended Groundwave, in either form, to have folding satellite dishes, etc.  On the GRF body they'd replace the LRM pack, on the VeeMech/TDR body, they replaced the SRM rack, though my plastic mini for Groundwave doesn't have the missile pod, either, and I haven't figured out how to do the antennas.

The only stated restriction in the book is that, for the most part, they're limited to weapons developed by 2750 (well, 2751, since they've got ER PPCs), with the exception of melee weapons, but I know I wouldn't worry too much about that - Thunderbolt missile launchers don't seem like a huge stretch for local industry to come up with.
I did make pick of the TDR version of Groundwave as the cover art for your story on the wiki.

I think I used the Ostscout backpack with it's antennas.
« Last Edit: 03 March 2022, 07:00:52 by Wrangler »
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HABeas2

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #77 on: 03 March 2022, 16:40:28 »
figuring out how to handle Predacons will be tricky. both lore wise and the fact many of them use alt modes that.. just don't really work well with the nebula california ruleset. so they'll require rather more effort for adaption.

Well, to be fair, what really is the point of a biped that transformers into another biped? Rule-wise, why would that even BE relevant? Even the idea of spending tonnage on conversion gear seems ludicrous at that point.

Now, as to Predacons: the spiders are easy enough conversions; I used them for the InterSectCon faction, after all [Tarantula for Black Arachnia, Stalking Spider for Tarantulus would be my picks for their beast modes]. And the Pred version of Scorponok would work pretty much the same way [Fire Scorpion would be perfect for his beast mode]. Pterasuar, meanwhile, is another Seeker-style variant, not unlike how I handled Swoop, though there's argument for the possibility that their flight mode looks more like an AirMech than a fighter [a Mk I Wasp would be my choice there, I think, using AirMech for his fight form and Mech mode for robot mode]. I *did* turn T-Rex style Grimlock into a quad in NebCal, of course, which would mean the same for Pred-Meg if you use the same approach, but considering how useful the forearms of either T-Rex 'bot--or the forearms of an actual T-Rex, for that matter--truly are, what are you really missing there?

Dinobot, if anyone, creates the most jarring offset, but even then, he's really just a smaller T-Rex with longer arms, so we'd be back to taking a Grimlock approach, but looking for sleeker models to get his Mech and Quad forms better in line. Perhaps the Cuirass or a classic Black Knight for 'Mech mode, and a Jaguar or Thunder Fox for quad mode.

Meanwhile, your Optimus Primal expy's beast mode could be represented by a Mandrill; it's humanoid, sure, but give it more of a hunch and the long arms are basically legs again. The rest have no issues going biped to quad, methinks.

Mirage is coming along nicely.   Planning a chest part incorporating the nose fins, while keeping the driver area of the Zyphros as the Assassin's head.  The turret will be repurposed as the stabilizer mount and rest of the body.

Damn, you work fast!

It is. I think ECCM would help but it's still vulnerable. The bright spot is that the Drone's Drone is more at risk than the Drone is.

Yes, but that's getting redundant for a "species" of drones, IMO.

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That's cool. I just wondered as they do seem to posses Luminescent Vibro-Weapons, the IE knew how Blasters worked, and the shield technology dates back to the 21st century.

Luminescent vibros are just vibroblades with some kind of lighting gimmick attached to make them shine in the dark; it's cosmetic at best and easy enough for anyone to do. (Retractable energy blades are a total no-go, though.) IE worked out how blasters and shield technology worked, but in their estimation--and the gameplay rules--both were very limited technologies in the long term, what with shields being useless against non-energy weapons such as ACs, Gauss rifles, and missiles, and blasters suffering from cripplingly BAD ranges, near-complete ineffectiveness against BAR 5+, and a major to-hit penalty. Our Syberians have no need for such RejecTech. (Guess we know who'd win in THAT match-up now!)

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I like the write ups. They really capture the feel of them. I do wonder about the heat sinks though. I know Heat Sinks outside the engines take crits but you also have them taking weight. Fusion Engines come with 10 heat sinks so their weight wouldn't need to be added in. They could for ICEs though.

For fusion plants, the formula for free sinks is still Rating/25, IIRC. Any more costs slots space, but any sinks counted "free with the engine type," like the 10 for all fusion plants, 5 for fission, and 1 for fuel cells--should be weight-free even if they take up slots. ICEs get no free slots or sinks, so each one would cost, but you only need them for energy weapons. The trouble there, of course, is that you'd ALSO need power amps for said weapons when using ICEs.

I could see thunderbolts and light AC's, since they're fairly straight forward.

Light ACs, at least. But the T-Bolts... well, they really SHOULD have been available in the way-back times, but haven't been thanks to canon. There's room for something "primitive" to fit the bill, I'm sure, like a missile hardpoint, and your story can always handwave something, I'm sure, that the humans came up with along the way too. I mean, it wasn't like all these alternate conversion-capable non-LAM Mechs existed before they came along...

- Herb


Daryk

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #78 on: 03 March 2022, 20:41:49 »
Herb, I'm guessing you didn't see my solution to the free DHS problem: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-designs-rules/alternate-prototype-double-heat-sinks/

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #79 on: 03 March 2022, 20:53:25 »
I usualy work pretty quickly when I have an idea so as not to forget it. Being inspired and having the parts right in front me me helps too.   ;D

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #80 on: 03 March 2022, 21:15:32 »
Stupid suggestion.  Maybe a more duable combiner is bunch of mini-Veebots merging to form a assault sized Mech or Superheavy.  That or drones attaching to a Veebot.
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idea weenie

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #81 on: 03 March 2022, 22:46:55 »
Well, to be fair, what really is the point of a biped that transformers into another biped? Rule-wise, why would that even BE relevant? Even the idea of spending tonnage on conversion gear seems ludicrous at that point.

Now, as to Predacons: the spiders are easy enough conversions; I used them for the InterSectCon faction, after all [Tarantula for Black Arachnia, Stalking Spider for Tarantulus would be my picks for their beast modes]. And the Pred version of Scorponok would work pretty much the same way [Fire Scorpion would be perfect for his beast mode]. Pterasuar, meanwhile, is another Seeker-style variant, not unlike how I handled Swoop, though there's argument for the possibility that their flight mode looks more like an AirMech than a fighter [a Mk I Wasp would be my choice there, I think, using AirMech for his fight form and Mech mode for robot mode]. I *did* turn T-Rex style Grimlock into a quad in NebCal, of course, which would mean the same for Pred-Meg if you use the same approach, but considering how useful the forearms of either T-Rex 'bot--or the forearms of an actual T-Rex, for that matter--truly are, what are you really missing there?

Dinobot, if anyone, creates the most jarring offset, but even then, he's really just a smaller T-Rex with longer arms, so we'd be back to taking a Grimlock approach, but looking for sleeker models to get his Mech and Quad forms better in line. Perhaps the Cuirass or a classic Black Knight for 'Mech mode, and a Jaguar or Thunder Fox for quad mode.

Meanwhile, your Optimus Primal expy's beast mode could be represented by a Mandrill; it's humanoid, sure, but give it more of a hunch and the long arms are basically legs again. The rest have no issues going biped to quad, methinks.

- Herb

The Beast Wars Cartoon had it explained that the Maximals and Predacons would be in beast mode due to higher energon radiation affecting their systems.  So a similar method might be the Aximals/Predacons having circuitry that is more sensitive to local environmental conditions (whatever those are), requiring increased maintenance (or even circuit failures) if they are in robot mode for too long while outdoors.  So Beast Mode would represent the transformers using a form of deployable protection that is weak against standard weapons damage, but strong vs the ambient environment.  (Like the Interceptor body armor vs MOPP gear)

In their bases the outside environment is kept out so they can be in robot mode without suffering problems.  Specialized equipment can be made in the base, carried in Beast Mode, the transformer changes into robot mode for special research in a single location, then the robot changes back into 'protected' mode for long-distance travel.  The specialized equipment is hardened against the environment that is why it can survive long-duration.

For Scorponok, it could be where the robot mode has regular hands, while in Beast Mode the myomers and joints are re-positioned to effectively form Claws, imposing a 'Piloting' penalty in cases of fine manipulation.  So robot mode provides fingers and protects the environmental armor, while beast mode has less precise manipulators but allows them to travel outdoors for longer periods of time. (Of course Scorponok also had the annoying tendency to use his claws when typing on computers)

(Also, the Beast Wars transformers were a lot smaller than the G1 transformers.  See the episodes where Beast Wars Megatron was only slightly taller than Ravage, rather than towering over him.)

Stupid suggestion.  Maybe a more duable combiner is bunch of mini-Veebots merging to form a assault sized Mech or Superheavy.  That or drones attaching to a Veebot.

The detail with that idea for the mini-Veebots is the strength/sturdiness needed for the linkage equipment required to transfer stress from an arm-Veebot to the torso-Veebot(s).

Still, a mini-Veebot acting as an additional turret (such as the Minicons) would allow a Veebot to engage one target by itself, while the turret Veebot could engage a second target with no secondary target modifiers.  Or where a full size Veebot might not have a Beagle Active Probe, but a Minicon might have a BA-scale sensor pack and feed that data to the Veebot.  These structural, power, and data connections would need their own mass and crit slots though.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #82 on: 03 March 2022, 23:31:20 »
The Beast Wars Cartoon had it explained that the Maximals and Predacons would be in beast mode due to higher energon radiation affecting their systems.  So a similar method might be the Aximals/Predacons having circuitry that is more sensitive to local environmental conditions (whatever those are), requiring increased maintenance (or even circuit failures) if they are in robot mode for too long while outdoors.  So Beast Mode would represent the transformers using a form of deployable protection that is weak against standard weapons damage, but strong vs the ambient environment.  (Like the Interceptor body armor vs MOPP gear)

In their bases the outside environment is kept out so they can be in robot mode without suffering problems.  Specialized equipment can be made in the base, carried in Beast Mode, the transformer changes into robot mode for special research in a single location, then the robot changes back into 'protected' mode for long-distance travel.  The specialized equipment is hardened against the environment that is why it can survive long-duration.

the explanation i went with for Syberia (if you read the fluff i posted ) is that the designs were originally created to help manage the wildlife of the dome. being made to look like animals (including stuff like faux fur and skin) was a way to help the bots blend in more with the local megafauna and thus not stress out of the wildlife they were managing quite as much. and since the death of the humans, they've generally kept those features due to the limited creative inertia of syberian AI's. (much the same way that the AutoBoP's and DemoCons continue to fight the old wars and emulate the human societies that created them. the AxiMaL's are just ones from a society focused on ecological preservation and terraforming.)

mostly i just figured it would be fun to toss some more bestial automech options into the mix, and a third (or fifth?) faction that wasn't closely aligned with the existing AutoBoP and DemoCon groups.


(Also, the Beast Wars transformers were a lot smaller than the G1 transformers.  See the episodes where Beast Wars Megatron was only slightly taller than Ravage, rather than towering over him.)
its actually even more obvious when BW megatron finds the Ark and tries to change history by killing Optimus Prime before G1 even happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9t7G_lHeiY
(the maximals manage to fix things and prevent history from changing.. mostly)

a detail i've largely dropped to avoid having to create BA and protomech sized automech rules. but that is why i went with the lighter masses for their units (being about 1/2 the mass of comparable roles in the AutoBoP's and DemoCons), and i'd generally say they should all have the "low profile" quirk plus whatever negative quirks that fit the chassis to balance it out. (non standard parts for example would be an obvious one)
(this actually is a little closer to the war for cybertron trilogy depiction, where in Kingdom the beast wars characters are shown as being much closer in size to the G1 bots, though mass shifting was definitely in play in that for rattrap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEJ9WpZk45Q )




Well, to be fair, what really is the point of a biped that transformers into another biped? Rule-wise, why would that even BE relevant? Even the idea of spending tonnage on conversion gear seems ludicrous at that point.
agreed for BT. it made a degree of sense in the transformers franchise given the different tech and setting involved (and the fact that a T rex or JP style velociraptor that became a robot made for a wicked cool toy) but for BT and Syberia if it doesn't add any practical mechanic effect it is a waste of conversion gear tonnage


Now, as to Predacons: the spiders are easy enough conversions; I used them for the InterSectCon faction, after all [Tarantula for Black Arachnia, Stalking Spider for Tarantulus would be my picks for their beast modes]. And the Pred version of Scorponok would work pretty much the same way [Fire Scorpion would be perfect for his beast mode]. Pterasuar, meanwhile, is another Seeker-style variant, not unlike how I handled Swoop, though there's argument for the possibility that their flight mode looks more like an AirMech than a fighter [a Mk I Wasp would be my choice there, I think, using AirMech for his fight form and Mech mode for robot mode]. I *did* turn T-Rex style Grimlock into a quad in NebCal, of course, which would mean the same for Pred-Meg if you use the same approach, but considering how useful the forearms of either T-Rex 'bot--or the forearms of an actual T-Rex, for that matter--truly are, what are you really missing there?

Dinobot, if anyone, creates the most jarring offset, but even then, he's really just a smaller T-Rex with longer arms, so we'd be back to taking a Grimlock approach, but looking for sleeker models to get his Mech and Quad forms better in line. Perhaps the Cuirass or a classic Black Knight for 'Mech mode, and a Jaguar or Thunder Fox for quad mode.

Meanwhile, your Optimus Primal expy's beast mode could be represented by a Mandrill; it's humanoid, sure, but give it more of a hunch and the long arms are basically legs again. The rest have no issues going biped to quad, methinks.
more or less my thoughts for most of them. the insects generally are already covered, i just need to work up the designs. (and figure out how to represent the mass and crits of the extra legs and the tail options from the book in MML)

that said what might make a fun way to do the minis would be to get some cheap plastic animal toys to cut up and hang some parts of off light and medium mechs of the roughly right sizes.

and yeah, i was thinking that i could probably just swap the animal mode to a quadruped where needed. perhaps some of the local beasts lean towards the old Victorian dinosaur style critters:



« Last Edit: 04 March 2022, 00:00:52 by glitterboy2098 »

RifleMech

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #83 on: 04 March 2022, 00:20:14 »
Yes, but that's getting redundant for a "species" of drones, IMO.

I suppose it would be but there were different types of drones during the Star League too. Now that I think about it though, how much do non mech AI's weigh? Those that convert and those that don't? I'm guessing a 3 ton AI could replace regular control systems but what about smaller AutoMech Drones? Would regular drone equipment be good enough for their AIs since they wouldn't have to tonnage for a 3 ton AI?



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Luminescent vibros are just vibroblades with some kind of lighting gimmick attached to make them shine in the dark; it's cosmetic at best and easy enough for anyone to do. (Retractable energy blades are a total no-go, though.) IE worked out how blasters and shield technology worked, but in their estimation--and the gameplay rules--both were very limited technologies in the long term, what with shields being useless against non-energy weapons such as ACs, Gauss rifles, and missiles, and blasters suffering from cripplingly BAD ranges, near-complete ineffectiveness against BAR 5+, and a major to-hit penalty. Our Syberians have no need for such RejecTech. (Guess we know who'd win in THAT match-up now!)

So Luminecent Vibro-Weapons are okay as long as they're not retractable? I suppose other Star Empire equipment is limited but so is some BT equipment. In a way their Shields are better than the IS's Blue Shield System. It protects against all energy weapons, not just PPCs. Laser Cannons do pack a punch and are lighter even if they aren't that accurate. Not that weapons fire was all that accurate in the animation. Some TFs also had shields. If allowed they wouldn't quite be the same since the SE shields seem to be for Aerospace only. There also weren't that many, that I can remember, so a few AutoMechs with RejecTech should be possible. They'd be the reason why they're tech was rejected. Of course now I really want a book full of RejecTech.  ;D


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For fusion plants, the formula for free sinks is still Rating/25, IIRC. Any more costs slots space, but any sinks counted "free with the engine type," like the 10 for all fusion plants, 5 for fission, and 1 for fuel cells--should be weight-free even if they take up slots. ICEs get no free slots or sinks, so each one would cost, but you only need them for energy weapons. The trouble there, of course, is that you'd ALSO need power amps for said weapons when using ICEs.

That's what I thought, which is why I was surprised to see tonnage listed for them. I didn't know MegaMekLab did that. You need power amps with fuel cells too. And support engines of all kinds need heat sinks. Would they be really ancient Automechs?


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Light ACs, at least. But the T-Bolts... well, they really SHOULD have been available in the way-back times, but haven't been thanks to canon. There's room for something "primitive" to fit the bill, I'm sure, like a missile hardpoint, and your story can always handwave something, I'm sure, that the humans came up with along the way too. I mean, it wasn't like all these alternate conversion-capable non-LAM Mechs existed before they came along...
- Herb

How about a more primitive version of the Narc Launcher? It's just a just a big single tube missile launcher, like the Thunderbolt. It just has high tech homing equipment. Remove than and you've got something like a Thunderbolt.



The Beast Wars Cartoon had it explained that the Maximals and Predacons would be in beast mode due to higher energon radiation affecting their systems.  So a similar method might be the Aximals/Predacons having circuitry that is more sensitive to local environmental conditions (whatever those are), requiring increased maintenance (or even circuit failures) if they are in robot mode for too long while outdoors.
(snip)
 

I never understood that since TFs consume energon.

Maybe have BeastMechs be more vulnerable to ECM, Centurion WS and Tasers in Mech Mode?


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For Scorponok, it could be where the robot mode has regular hands, while in Beast Mode the myomers and joints are re-positioned to effectively form Claws, imposing a 'Piloting' penalty in cases of fine manipulation.  So robot mode provides fingers and protects the environmental armor, while beast mode has less precise manipulators but allows them to travel outdoors for longer periods of time. (Of course Scorponok also had the annoying tendency to use his claws when typing on computers)

I kind of took the penalty for lifting with hands for granted in AltMode. At least for most AltModes.


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(Also, the Beast Wars transformers were a lot smaller than the G1 transformers.  See the episodes where Beast Wars Megatron was only slightly taller than Ravage, rather than towering over him.)

I missed that one but then I missed a lot of that series.


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The detail with that idea for the mini-Veebots is the strength/sturdiness needed for the linkage equipment required to transfer stress from an arm-Veebot to the torso-Veebot(s).

Still, a mini-Veebot acting as an additional turret (such as the Minicons) would allow a Veebot to engage one target by itself, while the turret Veebot could engage a second target with no secondary target modifiers.  Or where a full size Veebot might not have a Beagle Active Probe, but a Minicon might have a BA-scale sensor pack and feed that data to the Veebot.  These structural, power, and data connections would need their own mass and crit slots though.

Turrets I can kind of see but it should take a couple turns after the VeeBot converts. One to board the Bot and one to convert. Other combiners like I'm not sure about. I can't see how they'd combine without flying or being connected in a bay. I can see a larger drone going prone and separating into smaller drones more than I can see smaller drone combining into a bigger one. Crits and weight for connections would be good too.  :thumbsup:

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #84 on: 04 March 2022, 01:58:57 »
the explanation i went with for Syberia (if you read the fluff i posted ) is that the designs were originally created to help manage the wildlife of the dome. being made to look like animals (including stuff like faux fur and skin) was a way to help the bots blend in more with the local megafauna and thus not stress out of the wildlife they were managing quite as much. and since the death of the humans, they've generally kept those features due to the limited creative inertia of syberian AI's. (much the same way that the AutoBoP's and DemoCons continue to fight the old wars and emulate the human societies that created them. the AxiMaL's are just ones from a society focused on ecological preservation and terraforming.)

mostly i just figured it would be fun to toss some more bestial automech options into the mix, and a third (or fifth?) faction that wasn't closely aligned with the existing AutoBoP and DemoCon groups.

True, I was going with a reason for Herb as to why the original Beast Wars crew had to remain in beast mode most of the time.  Their choice was survival, your setup is to prevent panic.

You are right, having the extra faction would be fun

I never understood that since TFs consume energon.

Maybe have BeastMechs be more vulnerable to ECM, Centurion WS and Tasers in Mech Mode?

It could be compared to drinking from a garden hose vs drinking from a fire hose.  Or how some food needs to be cooked before eating (and raw energon needs to be processed before consuming)

But your idea about vulnerability to EM effects would be good.  Perhaps PPCs would be added to the list?

I missed that one but then I missed a lot of that series. 

Beast Wars Megatron meets Ravage - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHVE5j4I0L8
Beast Wars Megatron meets G1 Optimus - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9t7G_lHeiY (this the Season 2 finale)

Turrets I can kind of see but it should take a couple turns after the VeeBot converts. One to board the Bot and one to convert. Other combiners like I'm not sure about. I can't see how they'd combine without flying or being connected in a bay. I can see a larger drone going prone and separating into smaller drones more than I can see smaller drone combining into a bigger one. Crits and weight for connections would be good too.  :thumbsup:

For combining into a larger bot (i.e. Devastator), you'd need the legs to form first, then the lower torso bot climbs the legs and transforms, then the upper torso bot climbs and transforms, then each of the arm bots climb and transform.

The fun part is that this would technically be a triple-changer bot, plus if the combined transformer is over 100 tons then each of the smaller bots would likely need to use the SuperheavyMech construction rules (i.e. 20% of mass as internal structure).  So you would have a BIG Mech, but the available tonnage percentage would be much lower than if it was a single Mech.  It means that whoever develops it can use existing factories to make the smaller combiner bots instead of needing to develop a larger factory to make the single larger bot (I figure a factory that makes six 50-ton Mechs per month would be cheaper than a factory that can make a single 300-ton Mech every month).

HABeas2

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #85 on: 04 March 2022, 04:43:07 »
The Beast Wars Cartoon had it explained that the Maximals and Predacons would be in beast mode due to higher energon radiation affecting their systems.  So a similar method might be the Aximals/Predacons having circuitry that is more sensitive to local environmental conditions (whatever those are), requiring increased maintenance (or even circuit failures) if they are in robot mode for too long while outdoors.  So Beast Mode would represent the transformers using a form of deployable protection that is weak against standard weapons damage, but strong vs the ambient environment.

I can see where you're going with that, but in the BT universe, BattleMechs are suitable for all but the most extreme of environments. It takes a nuke going off to surge most of them into shutdown--assuming the conventional damage doesn't incinerate them first--and anything harsh enough to prove too much for a BattleMech's environmental protections is generally going to have killed the organics all around them long before it's affected the 'Mechs. So, if there's a biosphere they're protecting, it would be quite alien indeed for it to be so harsh to Mechs yet sustainable for its native life forms. Not saying impossible, but certainly a stretch, IMO.

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In their bases the outside environment is kept out so they can be in robot mode without suffering problems.  Specialized equipment can be made in the base, carried in Beast Mode, the transformer changes into robot mode for special research in a single location, then the robot changes back into 'protected' mode for long-distance travel.  The specialized equipment is hardened against the environment that is why it can survive long-duration.

In BattleTech terms, I think I'd be hard-pressed to come up with a tech that only works in one mode and not the other from a purely environmental standpoint. I mean, motive systems vary with conversion-capable units only because the very act of conversion re-orients the motive systems into their necessary configuration for optimal use (wheels and tracks to the ground, rotors and jets to appropriate thrust vectors, even extra legs to the ground, and so forth), but armor, structure, and weapons tend to retain their utility in both modes or we would be just asking for trouble in combat. The same tends to go for the various types of environmental sealing that (again) is a built-in feature of all BattleMech designs (and a good number of IndustrialMechs).

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For Scorponok, it could be where the robot mode has regular hands, while in Beast Mode the myomers and joints are re-positioned to effectively form Claws, imposing a 'Piloting' penalty in cases of fine manipulation.  So robot mode provides fingers and protects the environmental armor, while beast mode has less precise manipulators but allows them to travel outdoors for longer periods of time. (Of course Scorponok also had the annoying tendency to use his claws when typing on computers)

Well, for that matter, the original cartoons tended to show several of the Maximals and Preds using very non-human hand designs that did human-hand jobs. The spider-bots typically had pincer-like claw-hands themselves, and Dinobot's hands, IIRC, never retracted their claws. The Maximals were fortunate enough to all have five-fingered hands in robot mode, at least.

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(Also, the Beast Wars transformers were a lot smaller than the G1 transformers.  See the episodes where Beast Wars Megatron was only slightly taller than Ravage, rather than towering over him.)

If there's one thing I ignored outright in making a BT-to-TF ruleset, it was scale and size changing. That tech just doesn't exist in BT, and the ProtoMech class was definitely not available to the Syberians. (I'm straining things as it is to put BA-scale drones in, but if your Beast Wars drones happened to use those, they'd last about a minute in a crossover fight and would never have a transforming capacity--another bridge I wouldn't cross there.) So, letting them just be lighter Mechs is perfectly fine to me.

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The detail with that idea for the mini-Veebots is the strength/sturdiness needed for the linkage equipment required to transfer stress from an arm-Veebot to the torso-Veebot(s).

Never liked that version of Voltron. Combiners always seemed an iffy approach to me, but the 20 vehicles to make one robot screamed "too many ways to defeat this thing!"

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Still, a mini-Veebot acting as an additional turret (such as the Minicons) would allow a Veebot to engage one target by itself, while the turret Veebot could engage a second target with no secondary target modifiers.  Or where a full size Veebot might not have a Beagle Active Probe, but a Minicon might have a BA-scale sensor pack and feed that data to the Veebot.  These structural, power, and data connections would need their own mass and crit slots though.

I think we have enough room for that approach with the rules we worked out earlier in this thread. They'd just be a different take on the cassette deployers, which basically are mechanized battle armor. Having a specialized sensor/ECM type of capability in the BA-sized drone so the parent Mech can devote that tonnage for more weapons/armor is totally sensible, and their use really shouldn't require extra rules to pull off; you're basically just running two unit types in tandem.

the explanation i went with for Syberia (if you read the fluff i posted ) is that the designs were originally created to help manage the wildlife of the dome. being made to look like animals (including stuff like faux fur and skin) was a way to help the bots blend in more with the local megafauna and thus not stress out of the wildlife they were managing quite as much. and since the death of the humans, they've generally kept those features due to the limited creative inertia of syberian AI's. (much the same way that the AutoBoP's and DemoCons continue to fight the old wars and emulate the human societies that created them. the AxiMaL's are just ones from a society focused on ecological preservation and terraforming.)

mostly i just figured it would be fun to toss some more bestial automech options into the mix, and a third (or fifth?) faction that wasn't closely aligned with the existing AutoBoP and DemoCon groups.

That is certainly a more manageable approach than trying to force the energon-overload angle into the mix with the way BT BattleMechs work. Another angle that might seem even sillier, but no less valid: Entertainment gone feral. Akin to trying to make a Jurassic Park scenario, but using AI-controlled 'Mechs customized to look animalistic, rather than cloning real dinosaurs and such, the human Syberians tried to make a high-tech fantastical theme park before they died, and the Maximal/Predacon machines effectively descend from them, perhaps militarized during the waning days of the humans in an effort to stave off their inevitable fall, leaving them with a dual layered kind of programming that tells them to simultaneously mimic bestial traits while fighting to protect their own side. This puts them in the same boat as the rest of the AutoMechs in the Syberia system, but with their own gimmick based on some eccentric pre-existing values.

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its actually even more obvious when BW megatron finds the Ark and tries to change history by killing Optimus Prime before G1 even happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9t7G_lHeiY
(the maximals manage to fix things and prevent history from changing.. mostly)

I think we can agree to skip the time travel arc. ;)

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a detail i've largely dropped to avoid having to create BA and protomech sized automech rules. but that is why i went with the lighter masses for their units (being about 1/2 the mass of comparable roles in the AutoBoP's and DemoCons), and i'd generally say they should all have the "low profile" quirk plus whatever negative quirks that fit the chassis to balance it out. (non standard parts for example would be an obvious one)
(this actually is a little closer to the war for cybertron trilogy depiction, where in Kingdom the beast wars characters are shown as being much closer in size to the G1 bots, though mass shifting was definitely in play in that for rattrap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEJ9WpZk45Q

Works for me. We don't need size-changers anyway, and having the "Beast Wars" AutoMechs on scale with the "G1" AutoMechs keeps them competitive and useful on the same battlefield.

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more or less my thoughts for most of them. the insects generally are already covered, i just need to work up the designs. (and figure out how to represent the mass and crits of the extra legs and the tail options from the book in MML)

Yeah, that can be tricky. When it comes to the spiders, though, a fun bit to note: Tarantulus and Black Arachnia's beast modes may have shown them with as many legs as their arachnid counterparts, but the toys and their robot forms made i kind of clear that only four limbs did most of the heavy lifting in their beast modes. The extra limbs became guns in robot mode. No reason they couldn't just be guns.

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that said what might make a fun way to do the minis would be to get some cheap plastic animal toys to cut up and hang some parts of off light and medium mechs of the roughly right sizes.

A kitbashing dream!

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and yeah, i was thinking that i could probably just swap the animal mode to a quadruped where needed. perhaps some of the local beasts lean towards the old Victorian dinosaur style critters:


'Xactly.

I suppose it would be but there were different types of drones during the Star League too. Now that I think about it though, how much do non mech AI's weigh? Those that convert and those that don't? I'm guessing a 3 ton AI could replace regular control systems but what about smaller AutoMech Drones? Would regular drone equipment be good enough for their AIs since they wouldn't have to tonnage for a 3 ton AI?

You're basically talking about the robotic/remote-controlled drone systems already in TacOps and Campaign Ops, I believe (or wherever they are now; my intimate knowledge of rulebooks has decayed in the last decade). Aside from the rules we kludged in this thread already for BA-drones, which basically just say all human control systems are now drone control systems, non AutoMech drone systems should be unchanged from their standard rules.

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So Luminecent Vibro-Weapons are okay as long as they're not retractable? I suppose other Star Empire equipment is limited but so is some BT equipment. In a way their Shields are better than the IS's Blue Shield System. It protects against all energy weapons, not just PPCs. Laser Cannons do pack a punch and are lighter even if they aren't that accurate. Not that weapons fire was all that accurate in the animation. Some TFs also had shields. If allowed they wouldn't quite be the same since the SE shields seem to be for Aerospace only. There also weren't that many, that I can remember, so a few AutoMechs with RejecTech should be possible. They'd be the reason why they're tech was rejected. Of course now I really want a book full of RejecTech.  ;D

At the 'Mech scale, a luminescent vibroblade is going to be just a vibroblade in terms of damage and whatnot. We have rules for those already, and there's no need to remake the wheel. (The human-scaled versions used in NebCal for the Star Empire setting were just for them.) As to the rest, that's up to whatever you really want on your table. I can only speak to the "canon" I wrote for NebCal, and as I wrote it, the AutoMechs don't have Star Empire tech (yet).

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That's what I thought, which is why I was surprised to see tonnage listed for them. I didn't know MegaMekLab did that. You need power amps with fuel cells too. And support engines of all kinds need heat sinks. Would they be really ancient Automechs?

More like AutoMechs based on IndustrialMechs, I'd say.

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How about a more primitive version of the Narc Launcher? It's just a just a big single tube missile launcher, like the Thunderbolt. It just has high tech homing equipment. Remove than and you've got something like a Thunderbolt.

We already discussed that, didn't we? We're basically describing an explosive Narc munition is all.

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I never understood that since TFs consume energon.

Others covered this, I know, but the gist was, as Primal put it in episode one: "This is too much of a good thing." The pre-human Earth was basically so heavily irradiated by raw energon that the Cybertronians would have been breathing it in constantly. If we literally breathed our food in with every inhalation, how quickly do you imagine we'd all have diabetes?

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Maybe have BeastMechs be more vulnerable to ECM, Centurion WS and Tasers in Mech Mode?

Once more, I'd call that reaching. In this case, you're basically building a handicap into their very gimmick, which makes it even weirder they would want it!

True, I was going with a reason for Herb as to why the original Beast Wars crew had to remain in beast mode most of the time.  Their choice was survival, your setup is to prevent panic.

You are right, having the extra faction would be fun

Agreed. I liked the effort to make them mesh.

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It could be compared to drinking from a garden hose vs drinking from a fire hose.  Or how some food needs to be cooked before eating (and raw energon needs to be processed before consuming)

Oh, right! And after the superweapon/second moon was used, most of that raw energon was stabilized or vaporized, too. (Which made it practically unnecessary to have beast modes, but by then, half the beast forms were chrome plated anyway, so...)

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But your idea about vulnerability to EM effects would be good.  Perhaps PPCs would be added to the list?

Still think you're looking to create a problem that only makes it harder to justify them vs. regular 'Mechs, which is kind of going the opposite direction from where you'd want to go.

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For combining into a larger bot (i.e. Devastator), you'd need the legs to form first, then the lower torso bot climbs the legs and transforms, then the upper torso bot climbs and transforms, then each of the arm bots climb and transform.

The fun part is that this would technically be a triple-changer bot, plus if the combined transformer is over 100 tons then each of the smaller bots would likely need to use the SuperheavyMech construction rules (i.e. 20% of mass as internal structure).  So you would have a BIG Mech, but the available tonnage percentage would be much lower than if it was a single Mech.  It means that whoever develops it can use existing factories to make the smaller combiner bots instead of needing to develop a larger factory to make the single larger bot (I figure a factory that makes six 50-ton Mechs per month would be cheaper than a factory that can make a single 300-ton Mech every month).

Maybe, but TBH, combiner 'Mechs would just be a whole bunch of extra rules and handicaps I wouldn't want to touch anyway. What happens if you blow the leg or arm off just one of the component Mechs, rendering it incapable of transformation? Now it's out of commission, and so is your mega-Mech. To keep them all useful in BT, I would just treat a combiner as a well-coordinated team of Mechs; you get more tactical options and firepower that way, anyway, and don't need to come up with a ton of specialized rules.

- Herb

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #86 on: 04 March 2022, 06:51:42 »
Never liked that version of Voltron. Combiners always seemed an iffy approach to me, but the 20 vehicles to make one robot screamed "too many ways to defeat this thing!"

True, too many vehicles trying to combine means you might have trouble even before the enemy shoots at the combiner:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSIQkMS6HoI

Maybe, but TBH, combiner 'Mechs would just be a whole bunch of extra rules and handicaps I wouldn't want to touch anyway. What happens if you blow the leg or arm off just one of the component Mechs, rendering it incapable of transformation? Now it's out of commission, and so is your mega-Mech. To keep them all useful in BT, I would just treat a combiner as a well-coordinated team of Mechs; you get more tactical options and firepower that way, anyway, and don't need to come up with a ton of specialized rules.

- Herb

So a locally-developed C3i network that would likely mass more than the 2.5 ton canon system, but it would allow a 'combiner' group to better coordinate fire.  Have some sort of hardwired setup where only those 6 can link to each other, rather than re-arranging the C3i network before each battle?  If the group works together all the time, a Boosted C3i system might make sense.

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #87 on: 04 March 2022, 07:53:15 »
It could be compared to drinking from a garden hose vs drinking from a fire hose.  Or how some food needs to be cooked before eating (and raw energon needs to be processed before consuming)

But your idea about vulnerability to EM effects would be good.  Perhaps PPCs would be added to the list?

That makes sense. :)

:) Sure. Why not?  :thumbsup: They also might be better as Industrials as they're more susceptible to EM effects.


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Beast Wars Megatron meets Ravage - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHVE5j4I0L8
Beast Wars Megatron meets G1 Optimus - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9t7G_lHeiY (this the Season 2 finale)

Cool. Thanks :)


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For combining into a larger bot (i.e. Devastator), you'd need the legs to form first, then the lower torso bot climbs the legs and transforms, then the upper torso bot climbs and transforms, then each of the arm bots climb and transform.

I would think that would take at least a turn per mech to convert plus another turn to climb into position, with a big skill penalty. That's a couple minuets for a combiner with 6 mechs. I suppose that would work but if anyone screws up they all fall taking damage and having to start all over again.

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The fun part is that this would technically be a triple-changer bot, plus if the combined transformer is over 100 tons then each of the smaller bots would likely need to use the SuperheavyMech construction rules (i.e. 20% of mass as internal structure).  So you would have a BIG Mech, but the available tonnage percentage would be much lower than if it was a single Mech.  It means that whoever develops it can use existing factories to make the smaller combiner bots instead of needing to develop a larger factory to make the single larger bot (I figure a factory that makes six 50-ton Mechs per month would be cheaper than a factory that can make a single 300-ton Mech every month).


I suppose smaller factories would be helpful but they should already have large factories making AutoMechs. I would think a superheavy bay, at least, would be needed to assemble the large drone for testing and any repairs. It'd be hard to repair a combiner that can't fit in a standard bay because damage causes multiple parts to be stuck together.


In BattleTech terms, I think I'd be hard-pressed to come up with a tech that only works in one mode and not the other from a purely environmental standpoint. I mean, motive systems vary with conversion-capable units only because the very act of conversion re-orients the motive systems into their necessary configuration for optimal use (wheels and tracks to the ground, rotors and jets to appropriate thrust vectors, even extra legs to the ground, and so forth), but armor, structure, and weapons tend to retain their utility in both modes or we would be just asking for trouble in combat. The same tends to go for the various types of environmental sealing that (again) is a built-in feature of all BattleMech designs (and a good number of IndustrialMechs).

I can see some items being used in one mode and not another. Like physical weapons. They aren't that useful in AltMode. Sure some could be used for ramming or industrial work as well as physical combat. They could also help form the AltMode like an Axe becoming a vertical stablizer or something. A fighter swinging an axe about is a bit of a stretch though.


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If there's one thing I ignored outright in making a BT-to-TF ruleset, it was scale and size changing. That tech just doesn't exist in BT, and the ProtoMech class was definitely not available to the Syberians. (I'm straining things as it is to put BA-scale drones in, but if your Beast Wars drones happened to use those, they'd last about a minute in a crossover fight and would never have a transforming capacity--another bridge I wouldn't cross there.) So, letting them just be lighter Mechs is perfectly fine to me.

I'm glad you didn't go with scale and size changing. I could see Protomech sized drones though. Other than the weight of the AI, I think they'd be easier to build. Even with conversion systems. I don't think they'd last long either but I can see them existing.


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Never liked that version of Voltron. Combiners always seemed an iffy approach to me, but the 20 vehicles to make one robot screamed "too many ways to defeat this thing!"

That and the robot ends up being dropship sized. Apparently TF gets more confusing as many combiners have extra team members (spare limbs) and can swap members with other teams. Bruticus swapping an arm with Superion and such.


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I think we can agree to skip the time travel arc. ;)

And I was wondering about weight and crit requirements for the Flux Capacitor.  ;D

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You're basically talking about the robotic/remote-controlled drone systems already in TacOps and Campaign Ops, I believe (or wherever they are now; my intimate knowledge of rulebooks has decayed in the last decade). Aside from the rules we kludged in this thread already for BA-drones, which basically just say all human control systems are now drone control systems, non AutoMech drone systems should be unchanged from their standard rules.

The basic ones are in TacOps. The more advanced stuff is in Interstellar Ops. Although, I'm not sure all of it is or not. I think there was an even more advanced version but I don't remember. So a AI Drone is built as is but a controlled drone would use BT rules. Cool.  :thumbsup:

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At the 'Mech scale, a luminescent vibroblade is going to be just a vibroblade in terms of damage and whatnot. We have rules for those already, and there's no need to remake the wheel. (The human-scaled versions used in NebCal for the Star Empire setting were just for them.) As to the rest, that's up to whatever you really want on your table. I can only speak to the "canon" I wrote for NebCal, and as I wrote it, the AutoMechs don't have Star Empire tech (yet).

 :thumbsup:

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More like AutoMechs based on IndustrialMechs, I'd say.

I was thinking more about those that didn't convert though. Or do but not to Mech mode. Like a Drone Thorizer.

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We already discussed that, didn't we? We're basically describing an explosive Narc munition is all.

Yep. Was just throwing out a possible reason for Thunderbolts to exist there.  :thumbsup:


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Others covered this, I know, but the gist was, as Primal put it in episode one: "This is too much of a good thing." The pre-human Earth was basically so heavily irradiated by raw energon that the Cybertronians would have been breathing it in constantly. If we literally breathed our food in with every inhalation, how quickly do you imagine we'd all have diabetes?

Makes sense. Pretty quick I guess.

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Once more, I'd call that reaching. In this case, you're basically building a handicap into their very gimmick, which makes it even weirder they would want it!

Sure it is but isn't that handicap already built into industrial chassis?

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Oh, right! And after the superweapon/second moon was used, most of that raw energon was stabilized or vaporized, too. (Which made it practically unnecessary to have beast modes, but by then, half the beast forms were chrome plated anyway, so...)

I missed that one too.


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Maybe, but TBH, combiner 'Mechs would just be a whole bunch of extra rules and handicaps I wouldn't want to touch anyway. What happens if you blow the leg or arm off just one of the component Mechs, rendering it incapable of transformation? Now it's out of commission, and so is your mega-Mech. To keep them all useful in BT, I would just treat a combiner as a well-coordinated team of Mechs; you get more tactical options and firepower that way, anyway, and don't need to come up with a ton of specialized rules.

- Herb

They could be BA or ProtoMech sized so they can operate in the same hex together.

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #88 on: 04 March 2022, 13:51:51 »
True, too many vehicles trying to combine means you might have trouble even before the enemy shoots at the combiner:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSIQkMS6HoI

'Xactly!

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So a locally-developed C3i network that would likely mass more than the 2.5 ton canon system, but it would allow a 'combiner' group to better coordinate fire.  Have some sort of hardwired setup where only those 6 can link to each other, rather than re-arranging the C3i network before each battle?  If the group works together all the time, a Boosted C3i system might make sense.

GAH! C3! Thank CAT the Syberians don't have that gear! What a freaking nightmare! No; the closest I'd come, maybe, is to just treat the "combiner team" as one unit in the Initiative order, so they "act as one." Or maybe give them an attack bonus that applies when all component units are active on the field together, a-la a simple special force rule--negated once you KO a single unit as a kind of "morale effect."

I would think that would take at least a turn per mech to convert plus another turn to climb into position, with a big skill penalty. That's a couple minuets for a combiner with 6 mechs. I suppose that would work but if anyone screws up they all fall taking damage and having to start all over again.

Funny, but still just another strike against them.

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I suppose smaller factories would be helpful but they should already have large factories making AutoMechs. I would think a superheavy bay, at least, would be needed to assemble the large drone for testing and any repairs. It'd be hard to repair a combiner that can't fit in a standard bay because damage causes multiple parts to be stuck together.

There's another.

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I can see some items being used in one mode and not another. Like physical weapons. They aren't that useful in AltMode. Sure some could be used for ramming or industrial work as well as physical combat. They could also help form the AltMode like an Axe becoming a vertical stablizer or something. A fighter swinging an axe about is a bit of a stretch though.

Physical weapons are of questionable value even in the best of times, anyway. I'm not at all averse to leaving them out because the rules don't generally support physical weapon attacks by non-Mechs except in the case of some industrial gear and ramming.

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I'm glad you didn't go with scale and size changing. I could see Protomech sized drones though. Other than the weight of the AI, I think they'd be easier to build. Even with conversion systems. I don't think they'd last long either but I can see them existing.

Thanks to BT's "bulkytech" aesthetic, ProtoMechs needed the Clans to come along and invent them; otherwise, the jump went from power armor/light batter armor to 'Mechs (implying that Inner Sphere/Star League tech just can't bridge the gap effectively in between). I could stretch for battle armor, since the SL had power suits and exoskeletons have always been around for the setting, but Protos in Syberia? Nerp.

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That and the robot ends up being dropship sized. Apparently TF gets more confusing as many combiners have extra team members (spare limbs) and can swap members with other teams. Bruticus swapping an arm with Superion and such.

Yeah; the post-Devastator combiners tended to use a more interchangable technology. The most recent combiner in my collection that I can completely build has Bruticus's torso and limbs that are mostly Protectobots. Pretty sure they'd have an identity crisis. (Another part of the TF lore that's always fun is how the minds fuse in combined modes; I'd not want to codify those rules either, so... Another strike against combiners!)

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And I was wondering about weight and crit requirements for the Flux Capacitor.  ;D

Thank Cat we won't be touching that, then!

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The basic ones are in TacOps. The more advanced stuff is in Interstellar Ops. Although, I'm not sure all of it is or not. I think there was an even more advanced version but I don't remember. So a AI Drone is built as is but a controlled drone would use BT rules. Cool.  :thumbsup:

If built as a robotic, it should be independent; if built as a remote-controlled drone, it is controlled by the parent unit. If this is Syberia, the preference is to have ALL drones use robotic control systems, so they can behave individually and be less susceptible to ECM (or, in the case of those Syberians not operating inside a decent magnetosphere, sunspot activity).

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I was thinking more about those that didn't convert though. Or do but not to Mech mode. Like a Drone Thorizer.

What about them?

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Yep. Was just throwing out a possible reason for Thunderbolts to exist there.  :thumbsup:

Your table, your rules. Were it me, I'd be making do without.

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Makes sense. Pretty quick I guess.

I know *I* wouldn't stand a chance...

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Sure it is but isn't that handicap already built into industrial chassis?

I can't recall exactly, but I think most of that can be mitigated with better armor and enviro sealing. But if one were to go with a story that establishes them as IndyMech-based, they would at least have a good reason for that gimmick.

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I missed that one too.

It was fun. They killed off a couple characters in rather incidental ways, gave folks a reason to buy more toys, and never once explained to us what the Vok were up to, while setting the stage for Ravage to show up.

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They could be BA or ProtoMech sized so they can operate in the same hex together.

BA-size would justify operating in the same hex, but why make them combine? OOO! The central unit is a 'Mech, but its combiner team is all battle armor, and it uses Mechanized BA rules when they combine. The central unit remains in control, and gains the benefits of the team's armor as extra protection from attacks, plus maybe whatever electronic suites they have that the central unit lacks! Minimal new rules, and the SAME questionable behavior, but in this case, who'd care? It wouldn't be the first time someone tried to use their own battlesuited troops to get around their armor maximums.

...Or, as I suggested above, you could just give them some special force rules that give the team a boost when all of them are present on the field, to reflect their morale and enhanced coordination, and let them move anywhere they like so they can do fun things like triangulate their fire.

- Herb

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Re: Filling in the Syberian AutoMechs (Open Thread)
« Reply #89 on: 04 March 2022, 21:38:49 »
I suppose smaller factories would be helpful but they should already have large factories making AutoMechs. I would think a superheavy bay, at least, would be needed to assemble the large drone for testing and any repairs. It'd be hard to repair a combiner that can't fit in a standard bay because damage causes multiple parts to be stuck together.

The larger factories making Automechs are the ones making the 50-ton combiners.  A SuperHeavy Bay for assembling/testing the 300-ton combiner would be useful and the nice part is that since the SuperHeavy bay is just the final step the rest of the factory costs the same as a non-combiner factory.  A factory making a SuperHeavy would be more expensive than a faster factory that can make combiner Veemechs.

So the following setups:
  • Veemech Repair Bay - standard Mech Repair bay, used to repair Veemechs and LAMs
  • Standard VeeMech factory - does not produce Combiners (your 'large' factory)
  • Combiner Factory/testbed - as Standard Veemech factory, but includes a SuperHeavy bay for assembly/testing/repairs
  • Combiner Factory - as Standard Veemech factory, but produces combiner Veemechs.  Can repair Combiners, but only if they are separated
  • SuperHeavy Bay - can repair a fused combiner, or a SuperHeavy Veemech
  • SuperHeavy Factory - produces SuperHeavy Veemechs (i.e. Fortress Maximus), but is more expensive per ton of output than a Combiner Factory/testbed
So Devastator as a combiner was the prototype, and it had delays in processing because it would poll its 6 components before making every decision.  Since there were 6 units, there could be tie votes, meaning only the most obvious choices were taken (initiative penalties, and randomly selects the current target each turn unless commanded by a 'superior').

The next generation combiners were manufactured with a linkage system and control system that worked properly, and espionage on both sides would allow the plans for that linkage system to get copied (aka why the Combiner toys can link with each other).  The data channels would not be compatible though, so no taking the arms of Bruticus and attaching them to Scattershot to make a more aggressive Computron.

SuperHeavies (like Fortress Maximus) are a rare resource because they can only be built in specialized factories and need SuperHeavy repair centers in case of damage (or they only get fixed via very slow field repairs)


GAH! C3! Thank CAT the Syberians don't have that gear! What a freaking nightmare! No; the closest I'd come, maybe, is to just treat the "combiner team" as one unit in the Initiative order, so they "act as one." Or maybe give them an attack bonus that applies when all component units are active on the field together, a-la a simple special force rule--negated once you KO a single unit as a kind of "morale effect."

Potential advantages (pick one or two):
  • Eagle's Eyes - 6 sets of sensors are better than 1 set (lost when a member of the combiner formation is lost)
  • Forward Observer - only applies if another member of the combiner force is the one with artillery (only applies to combiner unit's artillery, not allied artillery)
  • Human TRO - the combiners have separate compacted databases, and the group can poll each other to spot the weak points. (lost when any member is shot down)
  • Iron Will - rest of combiner force helps steady each other during stressful conditions (lost when a member of the combiners is lost)
  • Marksman - additional eyes give more perspectives on the target (all other units being engaged by the combiner force count as secondary targets) (target's range is treated as 2* range of combiner closest to target; so if one unit is 4 hexes away and the rest of the combiner force is 20 hexes away, range is considered to be 8 for to-hit purposes)
  • Multi-tasker - the other members of the combiner team handle the processing necessary to hit additional targets.  (make it where the maximum number of targets that can be engaged by the group is 6, as each combiner handles its own 'priority' target calculations for the group) (limit is reduced as the number of combiners in the group is reduced)
  • Tactical Genius - the combiners try 6 different ideas and pick the one that works the best
  • Stand-Aside - allowed due to another member of combiner force providing different perspectives (hex spines are measured from around the enemy unit, so there are effectively 6 hex spines) (this skill only applies when there is at least one hex spine between the unit moving and a fellow combiner, if both are in hex spines, must be different hex spines, opposing side of the target counts as a separate hex spine)

Thanks to BT's "bulkytech" aesthetic, ProtoMechs needed the Clans to come along and invent them; otherwise, the jump went from power armor/light batter armor to 'Mechs (implying that Inner Sphere/Star League tech just can't bridge the gap effectively in between). I could stretch for battle armor, since the SL had power suits and exoskeletons have always been around for the setting, but Protos in Syberia? Nerp.

How about just tossing in extra batteries into Power Armor as they get bigger, then using a Star League tech Fusion Recharger to trickle-charge the batteries.  All energy weapons will need Power Amplifiers, but since these are just up-sized Battlearmor they can use the Battle-armor sized weaponry (and BA-sized battery packs for those weapons).  So the battery-powered Protomechs are cheaper and can expend a lot of energy/firepower quickly, but they also recharge slowly.  As a result they 'prefer' to be around their fusion-powered buddies to make sure they can get a quick top-off if needed.

(This would not require that much creativity from the bots, they just take a standard Battlearmor and keep adding on a few kilograms at a time until they have a 15-ton 'battlearmor')

BA-size would justify operating in the same hex, but why make them combine? OOO! The central unit is a 'Mech, but its combiner team is all battle armor, and it uses Mechanized BA rules when they combine. The central unit remains in control, and gains the benefits of the team's armor as extra protection from attacks, plus maybe whatever electronic suites they have that the central unit lacks! Minimal new rules, and the SAME questionable behavior, but in this case, who'd care? It wouldn't be the first time someone tried to use their own battlesuited troops to get around their armor maximums.

- Herb

This would solve the multi-processor poll voting, by simply going with the Mech having the sole vote while the others do what they are told.  There might be disagreements before combining, but after combining the policy is 'One Mech, One Vote'. The others are all Battlearmor so don't get to vote.

 

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