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Author Topic: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.  (Read 646 times)

ANS Kamas P81

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Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« on: 28 April 2021, 02:34:59 »
Quote
Shadow Hawk SHD-2HM
Base Tech Level: Introductory (IS)
Level          Era
-------------------
Experimental    - 
Advanced        - 
Standard      2550+
Tech Rating: D/C-E-D-X

Weight: 55 tons
BV: 1,238
Cost: 4,679,657 C-bills
Source: TRO 3039 - Age of War

Movement: 5/8/3
Engine: 275
Heat Sinks: 12
Gyro: Standard Gyro

Internal: 91
Armor: 152/185
                     Internal  Armor   
----------------------------------------
Head                        3      9   
Center Torso               18     23   
Center Torso (rear)                8   
Right Torso                13     18   
Right Torso (rear)                 6   
Left Torso                 13     18   
Left Torso (rear)                  6   
Right Arm                   9     16   
Left Arm                    9     16   
Right Leg                  13     16   
Left Leg                   13     16   

Weapons       Loc  Heat 
-------------------------
Medium Laser   RA    3   
Large Laser    LT    8   
LRM 10         RT    4   
SRM 4          HD    3   

Ammo         Loc  Shots 
-------------------------
LRM 10 Ammo   RT     12 
SRM 4 Ammo    RT     25 
Mix the LRM and LL at longer ranges, the LL and SRM at shorter, and then sub in the ML when you're out of ammo.  I just wanted to do a weapons swap rather than improve mobility or heat, keeping this very much a field-level refit at best.  Not a lot to say about this...though I like it, so I suppose that's for the best.  Granted I could just use a Wyvern, but this is a shade faster.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #1 on: 28 April 2021, 05:10:51 »
I think it is a much better option a sort of hybrid of the other 55s that the Shadow Hawk wants to be.

mvp7

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #2 on: 28 April 2021, 06:43:34 »
That seems like a Wolverine-6M/Griffin-1S treatment for a Shadow Hawk. I'd gladly take it over any Shadow Hawk model that comes before 2Ht (which is cheating as it basically goes full Wolverine ;D).

To maintain the Shadow Hawks' tendency for overzealous heat sinking I'd personally keep the old LRM-5 and add three extra heat sinks. That would mean heat negative long range heat and barely warm close range while allowing comparable Wolverine and Griffin variants outperform it in their respective fortes.

Daryk

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #3 on: 28 April 2021, 17:19:53 »
I'd leave the SRM-2 alone, and add the missing two jump jets, personally...  ^-^

mvp7

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #4 on: 28 April 2021, 17:33:23 »
I'd leave the SRM-2 alone, and add the missing two jump jets, personally...  ^-^
That crossed my mind too but... is it truly a Shadow Hawk if it isn't disappointing jumper?

I can't imagining what that SRM4 on the head would look like though :D.

Middcore

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #5 on: 28 April 2021, 19:51:09 »
I kind of thought that the point and the downfall of the SHD-2H was that it was already TOO much of an "all-rounder."

I can't imagining what that SRM4 on the head would look like though :D.

 ??? Just a bigger box with four tubes on the right side of the head, or another box with two tubes on the left, I'd imagine. Some of the very early Shadow Hawk art had paired tubes of some kind on either side of the cockpit, although they looked more like smoke grenade launchers than anything else.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #6 on: 28 April 2021, 23:20:50 »
Yeah, visually I see the SRM4 as two tubes on either side.  I suppose I just wanted to see if I could make the SHD even more mediocre yet still actually useful.  Success?

idea weenie

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #7 on: 29 April 2021, 01:12:52 »
Yeah, visually I see the SRM4 as two tubes on either side.  I suppose I just wanted to see if I could make the SHD even more mediocre yet still actually useful.  Success?

So muttonchop launchers?

This Shadow Hawk would still be fairly useful as you have increased its LRM capability, and while it lost its autocannon you gave it a weapon with only 3 fewer hexes of range but infinite ammo.  The problem is that with its short jump capacity it might not be able to control the range enough to keep an opponent within Large Laser range yet outside SRM/Medium Laser range.  Here would be my advice to the pilots of your Shadow Hawk compared to fighting some other 55-ton Mechs:
  • Dervish - fighting this Mech is going to hurt.  It has twice as many missiles as you do, so don't get into a missile duel with it.  Get in closer where your Large Laser can do damage, and try to keep the to-hit modifiers high.  Both of you only have 12 salvos for your LRM launchers, so only fire your LRMs when you have a good to-hit modifier.  Don't get into 9 hex range, as you again lose out on the damage capacity since it will have 1 more Medium Laser than you and twice as much SRM endurance.  It only has 10 heat sinks vs your 12, so you might be able to get it to overheat eventually.  Try to dance at the 10-15 hex range, though with your jump range of 3 vs the Dervish's jump range of 5, this will be difficult as well.  Good luck
  • Gladiator - this Mech has a better energy weapon than you for long range, and a better up-close armament.  You need to get to 10-14 hexes for your LRMs and Large Laser, so you can use your better ranged firepower to hopefully damage the Gladiator enough.  10 hexes is optimal as you will be in medium range for all your long-range weapons, yet outside the Gladiator's nasty short-range weaponry.  Try to focus on knocking out its right torso or right arm, so you have the range advantage again.  However, it also has a maneuverability advantage due to having 2 more Jump Jets than you, so be careful of a skilled Gladiator pilot that hangs back for a while, then is able to close quickly.  You might wind up staying at range and hoping that the enemy pilot starts overheating by firing the PPC and jumping its full range at every opportunity, but this is not recommended.
  • Griffin - get in close, and use your short-range weapons to engage.  It has the same LRM type as you, and twice as much ammo, so don't get into a missile duel.  Its energy weapon is stronger and longer-range than yours, so don't bother hanging back.  Its jump Jet capacity is also greater than yours, so it will be far more mobile.  Close in at your top speed and hope your armor holds out.
  • Scorpion - You outrange it with your LRMs, but only have 12 shots.  It has an energy weapon and an SRM launcher, but you have a slight advantage in close-range firepower.  The key is that it is faster than you in open terrain, while you have Jump Jets.  Engage it in difficult terrain so you have the speed advantage thanks to your Jump Jets, and if you have an opportunity you can use both lasers and the SRM to attack.  Just remember that the Scorpion's PPC has issues at 3 hexes, so the entire time you are engaging with your Medium Laser and SRM, the enemy Scorpion will be able to hit you just as hard.  Try to get to a location that the Scorpion will have a difficult time turning its torso to bear on you, whil your Jump Jets allow you to be facing in nearly any direction you choose.  Use this to stay out of the Scorpion's firing arcs in order to defeat it.
  • Wolverine - your Shadow Hawk has longer range via its LRMs, but the Wolverine has almost twice the endurance on its AC/5 (20 shots vs 12).  Still, once you get within 15 hexes your L Laser can do extra damage.  The problem is that the Wolverine has heavier armor, better jump range, and a better SRM kit.  Stay at 10-15 hexes, and use your Large Laser often.  Avoid using your LRMs at range 15 though.

So it is still useful, you just have to be careful with it

mvp7

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #8 on: 29 April 2021, 07:05:06 »
Wouldn't two sets of two tubes be practically the same as two SRM2 for which the head has no room though.

Looks like there's actually some existing art for SHD-5D with a Streak SRM4 in the head. It looks a bit crammed but I guess it would work in this case as well ;D:


Middcore

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #9 on: 29 April 2021, 09:19:20 »
Wouldn't two sets of two tubes be practically the same as two SRM2 for which the head has no room though.

We weren't the ones who decided an SRM2 and an SRM4 should both only take 1 critical space.

mvp7

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #10 on: 29 April 2021, 09:38:16 »
We weren't the ones who decided an SRM2 and an SRM4 should both only take 1 critical space.
I don't mind both taking the same critical space. Most of the "critical space" is probably used for feed system to deliver the missiles from the ammo rack to the weapon itself. Going from 2 tubes to 4 tubes could be relatively small change in that regard especially if the actual tubes are outside the structure as they are in most Shadow Hawk arts. It does leave the question of where does that extra ton of mass in SRM4 come from though :).

Middcore

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #11 on: 29 April 2021, 09:56:28 »
I don't mind both taking the same critical space. Most of the "critical space" is probably used for feed system to deliver the missiles from the ammo rack to the weapon itself. Going from 2 tubes to 4 tubes could be relatively small change in that regard especially if the actual tubes are outside the structure as they are in most Shadow Hawk arts. It does leave the question of where does that extra ton of mass in SRM4 come from though :).

Rocket launchers would seem to indicate that the weight of conventional missile launchers is mostly the ammo feed system.

mvp7

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #12 on: 29 April 2021, 10:23:53 »
Rocket launchers would seem to indicate that the weight of conventional missile launchers is mostly the ammo feed system.
And the missiles themselves are very light as one ton of rockets is 120 or 100 shots. Considering some mass for the rack itself, a single missile has a mass of 10 to 8 kg at most. That means maybe as much or slightly more than Hydra 70 rocket with proper warhead (around 6-7 kg), but significantly less than something like AGM-114 Hellfire (which are around 45-49 kg). Then again I guess Hellfire could be closer to a small Thunderbolt missile.

Daryk

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #13 on: 29 April 2021, 16:41:21 »
Agreed... the Hellfire would totally be a Thunderbolt type missile.

idea weenie

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #14 on: 29 April 2021, 21:34:35 »
And the missiles themselves are very light as one ton of rockets is 120 or 100 shots. Considering some mass for the rack itself, a single missile has a mass of 10 to 8 kg at most. That means maybe as much or slightly more than Hydra 70 rocket with proper warhead (around 6-7 kg), but significantly less than something like AGM-114 Hellfire (which are around 45-49 kg). Then again I guess Hellfire could be closer to a small Thunderbolt missile.

Let's get the numbers out:
Every LRM type = 120 missiles per ton of ammo = 8.33 kg/missile
Thunderbolt-5 - 12 shots per ton = 83.33 kg/missile
Thunderbolt-10 - 6 shots per ton = 166.67 kg/missile
Thunderbolt-15 - 4 shots per ton = 250 kg/missile
Thunderbolt-20 - 3 shots per ton = 333.33 kg/missile

So a Hellfire is between an LRM and the smallest of the existing Thunderbolts.  We can also see Thunderbolts are 60 pts of missile damage per ton of ammo, compared to LRM getting 120 pts of missile damage per ton of ammo.

A Thunderbolt-3 would mean 20 shots per ton or 50 kg per missile
A Thunderbolt-2 would mean 30 shots per ton or ~33.3 kg per missile

mvp7

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #15 on: 30 April 2021, 06:57:24 »
Let's get the numbers out:
Every LRM type = 120 missiles per ton of ammo = 8.33 kg/missile
Thunderbolt-5 - 12 shots per ton = 83.33 kg/missile
Thunderbolt-10 - 6 shots per ton = 166.67 kg/missile
Thunderbolt-15 - 4 shots per ton = 250 kg/missile
Thunderbolt-20 - 3 shots per ton = 333.33 kg/missile

So a Hellfire is between an LRM and the smallest of the existing Thunderbolts.  We can also see Thunderbolts are 60 pts of missile damage per ton of ammo, compared to LRM getting 120 pts of missile damage per ton of ammo.

A Thunderbolt-3 would mean 20 shots per ton or 50 kg per missile
A Thunderbolt-2 would mean 30 shots per ton or ~33.3 kg per missile
Thanks, that puts the Thunderbolt-20 in the same weight class with something like AGM-64 Maveric which seems sensible.

Hellraiser

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #16 on: 04 May 2021, 10:21:18 »
I can't imagining what that SRM4 on the head would look like though :D.
Bulkier but not Grasshopper-ish, it would just stick out 2 more tubes, IMHO.
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3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

nerd

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #17 on: 04 May 2021, 11:58:44 »
This is nice. Same feel, but a bit of optimization for the late Succession Wars battlefield.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #18 on: 04 May 2021, 13:42:30 »
Agreed,  there is certainly a place for the AC5 on some 3025 mechs.

The S-Hawk just isn't very optimized w/ all those 4 mismatched weapon systems.

As a full field grade refit not even requiring a bay its solid IMO.

I was thinking, you could even keep it VERY cool running still just by downgrading to an AC2 for the Range boost & then also do that SRM4 option w/ maybe a 2nd ton of ammo for Infernos option.

Still not ideal but avoids the automatic default of "drop AC for Energy" that everyone does.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Hellraiser

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #19 on: 04 May 2021, 13:43:24 »
any Shadow Hawk model that comes before 2Ht (which is cheating as it basically goes full Wolverine ;D).

What is a 2Ht ?
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

mvp7

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #20 on: 04 May 2021, 13:55:45 »
What is a 2Ht ?
It's a 3052 variant from the new Battle of Tukayyid book: http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/7737/shadow-hawk-shd-2ht

Typical Shadow Hawk 2H armor and engine but its armed with Large laser in place of the AC/5, ML in both arms and 5 Streak SRM 2s in right torso. Streak SRM ammo is CASEd and it has 10 double heat sinks as well as two extra jump jets. It's chronologically the first canon Shadow Hawk variant I would actually enjoy using but that close range weaponry and full jump jets make it feel more like a Wolverine.

Daryk

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #21 on: 04 May 2021, 16:25:28 »
*snip*
I was thinking, you could even keep it VERY cool running still just by downgrading to an AC2 for the Range boost & then also do that SRM4 option w/ maybe a 2nd ton of ammo for Infernos option.
*snip*
I like this line of thought... Going down to an AC/2 would provide enough tons for a second LRM-5.  The SRM-2 and ammo could be converted into a third... hmmm...  Probably drop a HS... hmmm... ^-^

Hellraiser

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #22 on: 04 May 2021, 16:49:03 »
5 Streak SRM 2s in right torso. Streak SRM ammo is CASEd 
Oh, I love this :)
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Hellraiser

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #23 on: 04 May 2021, 16:52:13 »
I like this line of thought... Going down to an AC/2 would provide enough tons for a second LRM-5.  The SRM-2 and ammo could be converted into a third... hmmm...  Probably drop a HS... hmmm... ^-^

This sounds a lot like my Warrior variant,  swap the SRM4 for LRM5,  better sniping.

Back to the S-Hawk,  hmm,  keeping it a Field refit,  and a bit more close in firepower....

AC5 > AC2 + ML
SRM2 > LRM5

Gives you 24 rounds per LRM still or ability to swap bins.
2nd ML means a Wasp doesn't outgun you in close.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #24 on: 10 May 2021, 17:50:24 »
This one's a little more extensive since it pulls off two heat sinks, but here's what I like with your suggestions.
Quote
Shadow Hawk SHD-2HL
Base Tech Level: Introductory (IS)
Level          Era
-------------------
Experimental    - 
Advanced        - 
Standard      2550+
Tech Rating: D/C-E-D-X

Weight: 55 tons
BV: 1,143
Cost: 4,605,257 C-bills
Source: TRO 3039 - Age of War

Movement: 5/8/3
Engine: 275
Heat Sinks: 10
Gyro: Standard Gyro

Internal: 91
Armor: 152/185
                     Internal  Armor   
----------------------------------------
Head                        3      9   
Center Torso               18     23   
Center Torso (rear)                8   
Right Torso                13     18   
Right Torso (rear)                 6   
Left Torso                 13     18   
Left Torso (rear)                  6   
Right Arm                   9     16   
Left Arm                    9     16   
Right Leg                  13     16   
Left Leg                   13     16   

Weapons       Loc  Heat 
-------------------------
Medium Laser   RA    3   
LRM 5          RT    2   
AC/2           LT    1   
LRM 5          LT    2   
Medium Laser   LA    3   
SRM 2          HD    2   

Ammo        Loc  Shots 
------------------------
LRM 5 Ammo   RT     24 
AC/2 Ammo    LT     45 
LRM 5 Ammo   LT     24 
SRM 2 Ammo   CT     50 
[/tt]

mvp7

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #25 on: 10 May 2021, 18:04:00 »
That's surprisingly large amount of sustainable firepower from extreme to short range with just 10 heat sinks. It definitely has a Shadow Hawk feel to it I think.

Daryk

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Re: Shadow Hawk 2H weapons swap into a more all-rounder.
« Reply #26 on: 10 May 2021, 19:11:16 »
Agreed, and I don't just say that because I like AC/2s...  :D