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Author Topic: Alaric Ward Genetics  (Read 1670 times)

Colt Ward

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #30 on: 07 September 2021, 13:06:56 »
Alaric does have Vlad's genes. He received a targeted broadcast on his entry into the Terra system (for VSD funeral). Vlad had all CW dropships coded to send the message to one of his bloodline on entering the Terra system. This was revealed in one of the books leading up to Hour of the Wolf.

We have never had any instance of Clan warriors boarding dropships and submitting to a on the spot DNA test.  The dropship's manifest would include their codex, which claims he is a Ward, and that is what Vlad's program was cross-checking.  Clan warriors use their codex as identification.  Alaric's codex is a fraud, was known to be a fraud by Seth Ward and Liam Ward in CGL's Bonfire of Worlds.

I am still unable to understand how this gets misunderstood in that single passage.
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #31 on: 07 September 2021, 17:02:03 »
I suppose at this point it should be sent to Ask The Writers...

Blkbr2020

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #32 on: 08 September 2021, 06:59:57 »
Well its covered in pages 36 and 37 of Children of Kerensky.  At no other point is it mentioned that other Wards learned of the location of the Mckennas Pride.


Dahmin_Toran

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #33 on: 08 September 2021, 09:27:17 »
I also believe that Katherine Wolf did not have as much sway in Clan Wolf as people believe.

Colt Ward

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #34 on: 08 September 2021, 09:45:33 »
No, the position being argued has never been another 'Ward' learned of the McKenna's Pride.  The passage covers how Alaric learned of it and as the Khan was able to send a secret mission when the time was appropriate.

BUT at no point does it say 'Alaric submitted to a DNA test before getting on the dropship' . . . instead he is a passenger.  He would be listed on the ship's internal manifest, and  codexes are the Clan warrior caste's form of ID, so it would recorded with the ship's records.  Just like flights and ships record the ID of everyone who is on board.  If the codex is falsified, then the dropship's secret program is going to work off of falsified information.  Which is the easiest answer when you shave with the Razor.

I also believe that Katherine Wolf did not have as much sway in Clan Wolf as people believe.

How?  Her behavior and activites are exceptional when nearing 100 and without a bloodname?  For one, Vlad's successor and Seth Ward never sent her to a solahma unit!  Natasha Kerensky was not even receiving just preferential treatment.  She was not left in the OZ as 'useless' . . . we also have a passage where IIRC it says Seth Ward still consulted her from time to time with the implication that he did not follow her advice like Vlad.  For the narrative, she is also the one warning Alaric about things when he has pending meetings with the Khan- not once, not twice, but three times. 

How would all that happen if she had not built a political network through the Crusader Wolves?
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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #35 on: 08 September 2021, 10:11:41 »
It wasn't explained how, but she had her own bloodname of Steiner.  It's entirely possible one of the Nova Cats which had Steiner Bloodname warrior among them could been used by Wolf somehow to give her actual Bloodname.  Remember she is a Steiner, as much as Phelan was a Ward via his mother.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #36 on: 08 September 2021, 10:21:40 »
No, WE conjectured before Wars of Reaving about Vlad trying to get her that Bloodname but she never got a shot that we know of- heck we did not know she even became a warrior until later.  Additionally, Din Steiner among the Nova Cats was abjured so the Cobras got to hold a Trial of Bloodright for that heritage when the abjuration happened.
 But among the Crusader Wolves per Legends, her name in the last paragraph is Katherine Wolf . . . no bloodname.

Btw, that last paragraph of Legends?  As Katherine Wolf, she worked with Vlad to develop the genetically experimental Ironborn sibko.  Her most successful creation, Khan Alaric War, combined genes from Victor and Katherine herself; in official records, Alaric's genefather was said to be Vlad Ward.

Which like Alaric's Legends entry is wrong, but says what the combination is and implies the official records are false.
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GreekFire

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #37 on: 08 September 2021, 12:15:49 »
Edit: Never mind.
« Last Edit: 08 September 2021, 12:24:43 by GreekFire »
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Colt Ward

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #38 on: 08 September 2021, 12:36:48 »
Legends, in both Katherine & Alaric's entries, state that Vlad is Alaric's father.  Bloodnames pass maternally . . . and while it twists conventional thinking, to be a Ward, Vlad has to be Alaric's 'mother.'  While never stated about Alaric, Katherine's insistence on being called Mother is either a tweak of Clan culture or because she is the maternal donor of his DNA.
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Dahmin_Toran

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #39 on: 08 September 2021, 12:45:36 »
Of maybe she did not want to be called father.

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #40 on: 08 September 2021, 13:20:05 »
Of maybe she did not want to be called father.

Which is why I said she was tweaking Clan culture, mocking how they can 'switch' the sex of the genetic donor and have separated parental ties to offspring.
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Dahmin_Toran

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #41 on: 08 September 2021, 19:33:16 »
I do remember males called genemother and vice versa. The Clans mix and match genetic material ALL the time. It depends on whose DNA is in the ovum, not who supplied it.

ShroudedSciuridae

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #42 on: 12 September 2021, 23:12:18 »
"Compounding matters, Alaric had proclaimed himself a Steiner heir
 while on Tharkad, in a broadcast to the masses. The DNA sample he had
 left confirmed that he possessed the genetic traits of Katherine and Victor
 Steiner-Davion. Even after all of these years, she is still meddling in the
affairs of state."

Hour of the Wolf, Interlude between Ch. 37&38

He's all Steiner-Davion. Which doesn't bode well for him considering the Steiner tendency towards Dobrowski Depression-A Syndrome.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #43 on: 12 September 2021, 23:30:28 »
"Compounding matters, Alaric had proclaimed himself a Steiner heir
 while on Tharkad, in a broadcast to the masses. The DNA sample he had
 left confirmed that he possessed the genetic traits of Katherine and Victor
 Steiner-Davion. Even after all of these years, she is still meddling in the
affairs of state."

Hour of the Wolf, Interlude between Ch. 37&38

He's all Steiner-Davion.

That’s not what that quote says.  It states that Alaric has Katherine and Victor’s genetic traits, _not_ that Alaric has _only_ their genetic traits.

I don’t have a dog in this fight, and I don’t mean to parse too much.  But that reference alone doesn’t disprove the possibility that Alaric has genes from other donors.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #44 on: 13 September 2021, 00:38:49 »
Yeah, brother and sister are going to share similar genetic traits.
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Dahmin_Toran

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #45 on: 13 September 2021, 01:51:46 »
I know that Katherine Steiner-Davion is very Machiavellian, but I do not think that she secretly controlled the Clan Wolf Scientist Caste. I bet Vlad allowed Katherine to mix her brother's genes with hers to create Alaric Ward, with the intent of the possibility of sowing discord in the Lyran Commonwealth.

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #46 on: 13 September 2021, 09:25:24 »
*sigh* . . . No one is saying she secretly controlled.  What she DOES have is an enormous amount of influence as can be seen by the fact a 100 year old mediocre warrior has not been shuffled off to the solahma ranks 50 years (3080s) ago!  The timing gives her a chance to use influence with Vlad during/after the Wars of Reaving so her 'friends' get promoted up the Scientist Caste- getting better positions, more access, and who start building their own networks of power.  Further, Katherine's interaction with the Scientists does not have to be secret- 95% of her 'fellow' warriors will not care she messed with the Scientist Caste and the very few who do were obviously unable to stop her . . .

 . . . besides, Katherine's passage in Legends says she worked with Vlad to create the Ironborn Sibko.  So everyone that is jumping to the conclusion Katherine was the one who falsified records are forgetting her collaborator.  What IS more interesting IMO is that this sibko was allowed to go ahead, likely b/c very few people knew what exactly it was made up of at the time, over 25 years after Vlad died in combat.

The interesting point for the Vlad/Phelan rivalry is . . . Phelan had Kell & Kerensky sibkos with Ranna . . . did Vlad have any sibkos with Katherine as the 'paternal' donor?  We are not told but there is a good chance some of the Wards involved in the Dark Ages would be Katherine/Vlad crosses.  But I doubt it, I cannot see Katherine letting any progeny out of her control like that with how she behaved with the Ironborn.
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wantec

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #47 on: 13 September 2021, 12:36:52 »
*sigh* . . . No one is saying she secretly controlled.  What she DOES have is an enormous amount of influence as can be seen by the fact a 100 year old mediocre warrior has not been shuffled off to the solahma ranks 50 years (3080s) ago! 
We've seen something similar before across many (if not all) clans in the form of Bloodhouse leaders and sometimes Loremasters & Khans. When certain warriors prove their worth to the Clan lies beyond just the battlefield, tactics, and strategy sometimes they can hold position long beyond what would be expected in say a Star Colonel. For Katherine Wolf it seems to be that she provided insight to aspects of the Inner Sphere that proved she was worth more where she was than as cannon fodder in some battle.
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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #48 on: 13 September 2021, 12:57:43 »
Even there she is an exceptional case- though it is probably she is not from a Clan background thus seeking a glorious death.  Angus Labov and a few others come to mind as other examples as you said.
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rebs

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #49 on: 13 September 2021, 13:14:33 »
But put Angus Labov in a Glass Spider and he tests as a Star Colonel.

A better example is Lisa Buhalin, founder of the Buhalins.  She was grievously wounded and crippled during the battle of the Black Brian on Dagda during Klondike.  She was the Loremaster and continued to write and helped Nicholas with Clan law, and when Elizabeth Hazen died or stepped down (not sure which), Buhalin was elected second Khan of the Jade Falcons.
« Last Edit: 13 September 2021, 13:16:31 by rebs »

GuyIncognito

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #50 on: 13 September 2021, 13:32:29 »
It's fun that this conversation seems to exist in-universe too, given one of the notable pilots for the Thresher II doesn't think Alaric has a valid claim to the Ward bloodname.

Dahmin_Toran

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #51 on: 13 September 2021, 14:50:20 »
I would have to assume that all sibkos with Vlad Ward and Katherine Wolf would have Vlad as the "maternal" donor. Otherwise there would be no way for them to claim a Bloodname. I am sure that Vlad's genes are mixed in with other legitimate Bloodheritages as well. So I could see Vlad shrugging his shoulders and saying "whatevs" to the Ironborn sibko. I am sure that there are plenty of other sibkos with his giftake mixed, so no worries about his line dying, especially with such an accomplished Khan.
« Last Edit: 13 September 2021, 14:52:11 by Dahmin_Toran »

Colt Ward

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #52 on: 13 September 2021, 15:36:59 »
I was not suggesting otherwise, but for instance we know Phelan & Ranna produced sibkos for both bloodnames.  But for Vlad?  afaik none of the notable pilots have claimed him as a ancestor.
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Dahmin_Toran

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #53 on: 13 September 2021, 18:45:11 »
I was not suggesting otherwise, but for instance we know Phelan & Ranna produced sibkos for both bloodnames.  But for Vlad?  afaik none of the notable pilots have claimed him as a ancestor.

The message did not just go out to just Alaric Ward, so there are other descendants out there. A lineage like Vlad would not have a single sibko out there.

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #54 on: 13 September 2021, 18:52:57 »
 . . . the message went out to Wards indicating they were Vlads descendants when a Wolf dropship was close to Terra.  This does not indicate there are others though he would expect them.  My point was we have no canon confirmation of the activity of any sibkos from Vlad besides the Ironborn, which is an official fabrication.

We know Phelan/Ranna happened both ways by canon sources.
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BirdDog

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #55 on: 13 September 2021, 18:58:01 »
. . . the message went out to Wards indicating they were Vlads descendants when a Wolf dropship was close to Terra.  This does not indicate there are others though he would expect them.  My point was we have no canon confirmation of the activity of any sibkos from Vlad besides the Ironborn, which is an official fabrication.

We know Phelan/Ranna happened both ways by canon sources.

I believe he was referring to Alaric specifically mentioning another Wolf warrior in their entourage descended from Vlad, who would have received the same message and wondering if he in fact had - I do not know if said other warrior was also Ironborn.

EDIT: my mistake, reread the passage for a direct quote and he was referring to another Ward NOT a descendant of Vlad and wondering if he’d have received it as well. 

Also, from the kindle version: ““A rightful heir to Khan Vlad Ward,” she often told people—though she had been told him Vlad actually had contributed nothing to his makeup; his true genefather had been Victor Steiner-Davion.”

— BattleTech: Children of Kerensky (BattleTech Novel Book 70) by Blaine Lee Pardoe
« Last Edit: 13 September 2021, 19:02:13 by BirdDog »

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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #56 on: 18 September 2021, 17:37:55 »
IlClan RecGuide vol 4 has a character listed as knowing Alaric has no link to the Ward Bloodname and the only reason he is keeping silent is Alarics successes.
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Re: Alaric Ward Genetics
« Reply #57 on: 22 September 2021, 23:45:10 »
One thing Alaric could do is, as ilKhan he could create a Steiner-Davion bloodname with him as the progenitor in view of his obvious accomplishments using the case of Phelan Ward/Kell and Ulric's formation of his Kell bloodname as a precedent. With no mention of any possible lack of actual Ward genes, then if it were to come to light later that he didn't have Ward genes being Alaric Steiner-Davion he could possibly say it doesn't even matter, and many might go along with that. If he was truly concerned about revealing a lack of Ward genes he probably wouldn't have given a copy to an enemy star nation just to put forth a claim toward their realm, especially if they could come right back and tell his Clan he doesn't have any Ward genes in his make-up, a Warden Wolf advisor would have been able to tell Trillian how devastating such an attack could be to Alaric's position, so it stands to ask why Trillian Steiner hasn't used such a weapon against Alaric if she has it. Also, the scientists are going to run Alaric's DNA as soon as he enters his genes into the breeding program, so he better have a plan for dealing with the fallout because his true heritage is going to come to light eventually.

Being a melange of multiple sources of DNA is not unheard of, especially on the paternal side, Natasha Kerensky herself was a combination of Kerensky DNA on the maternal side and a mix of several Widowmaker bloodlines on the paternal side. There does seem to be some possibility that Alaric was  of Kat S-D as his mother and a combination of Vlad and Victor as the paternal contribution several passages in Children of Kerensky and Hour of the Wolf seem to imply that that Vlad's contribution to Alaric was more than just window-dressing and ideology, especially since Vlad was dead decades before Alaric was even born. It seems a rather thin connection to fatherhood to just be an admirer of someone's accomplishments and ideology with no personal connection to them whatsoever. Also, if Vlad was only a part of his paternal heritage someone like Liam Ward would still likely consider Alaric an abomination and ineligible for a Ward bloodname with Katherine being the entirety of the maternal contribution.