Bidding Process and Pilot Records

[BATTLEMASTER]

How often are warrior codices requested when initiating a trial with a defender?  If, for example, Natasha Kerensky, a legendary MechWarrior, was among the defenders, would the attackers consider beefing up their force if they know they're going to fight some tough warriors?  Or would bringing more forces against a more-skilled opponent be seen as weakness among peers, such as competing commands within the attacking Clan or other Clans?

[AlphaMirage]

I believe codices are exchanged with a formal batchall, I don't think they have detailed data but a roster of names is certainly not out of the question. On the other hand Commanders are more likely to remove some established Ristars such as Natasha Kerensky's from their rosters (I believe her getting sick of this helped convince her to join the Dragoons) as part of the bidding process. After all these are to 'limit' the damage done to either side in order to 'sustain' Clan production of war materiel.

On the other hand if they were operating on the defensive I imagine that her Commander could simply send her out against a Star of Wannabe Ristars looking to be the ones that felled the Legendary Mechwarrior. This is probably how most of her encounters would go down in a formal Trial process, either she is cut out to more 'equitably' share in the Glory of the victory or she is put into 'difficult' situations and expected to be the Legend she is. After all Commanders don't want the Ristars to take their own position away some day.

[Colt Ward]

So . . . part of the problem with establishing the Clan Watches was that military formation information was not concealed.  A Clan would know through the Chatterweb, trading and all other sorts of open sources that if they were going to launch a Trial of Possession for something on, say Eden in 3000, that the 4th Wolf Guards and a Epsilon garrison cluster were stationed at that large enclave.  The Wolf Clan was not hiding where the 4th Wolf Guards were stationed, the unit composition, or commander . . . or even that they had ristars in the ranks.  In fact, Clan society might have even pushed that information out there for a sort of bragging rights or a 'come at me bro!' attitude, wanting to be challenged.  This would also be how a Clan could try to grab genetic material when a trade was not worked out previously- FREX Vlad catching Ian Hawker in transit to trial for his genetics.

On the flip side, we get enough stories about how a new Omni, or earlier in the Clans tank, was assigned to a cluster in star/trinary strength and how their abilities surprised a foe who stumbled across them b/c they thought they had the complete information.

As far as Natasha, IMO she was bid out when the Galaxy Commanders were competing to take a objective set by the Clan.  The Wolf Khan calls together his galaxy commanders in 2995 to plan their objectives . . .

All right my warriors, the Clan needs to secure some more 400 XL engines since our merchant factor says we will be able to produce more Gargoyles than expected this year with the only thing holding us back being not enough surplus 400XLs.  I have decided we will trial the Star Adders for part of their production run on Priori, they have two frontline clusters and a single garrison cluster in that enclave.  I will bid first as Khan, I bid the Golden Keshik, 4th Wolf Guards, 352nd Assault Cluster, and 9th Rangers.
a couple rounds of bidding . . .
No one will match my Golden Keshik, 352nd Assault Cluster, and the 4th's Supernova Trinary First & Second?  Then I declare the bidding over and Alpha Galaxy has won the right to launch that Trial at the Star Adders.

[cmerwin]

How often are warrior codices requested when initiating a trial with a defender?  If, for example, Natasha Kerensky, a legendary MechWarrior, was among the defenders, would the attackers consider beefing up their force if they know they're going to fight some tough warriors?  Or would bringing more forces against a more-skilled opponent be seen as weakness among peers, such as competing commands within the attacking Clan or other Clans?

My own read on this is what AlphaMirage said, that this would get hashed out during batchall. But I feel a lot of this would also depend on internal clan politics. A Galaxy Commander who is trying to groom a ristar for their bloodhouse, or conversely, throw a ristar under the bus, might deliberately underbid. We saw this with Trent/Baldur in the Smoke Jaguars.


But also, as I recall, not all challenges are recorded on the Codex, and even in cases of Trials of Position, which I assume *are* recorded, they are often skipped for senior ranking members.


So I guess to answer your question, the formal exchange of a codex is probably part of the batchall itself. And if I were a commander, I would be wondering why the opposing force was wanting to exchange them and for what reason.

[Colt Ward]

Well, they exchange unit information, which is unit history, composition (oh look, at some point a Warhawk in that assault star was replaced with something called a Iron Cheetah?  what is that?), and what would be personnel files . . . which is really about what a codex is for the Clans.  The point the information is exchanged is important too, it is immediately after the challenge but before the final determination of forces.

It is basically laying out all the information on the table, because if you hide something it is dishonorable.  Use what I mentioned earlier, but say I just said it was a assault star . . . a star of Gargoyles will be factored into the final bid differently than a star comprised of two Dire Wolves, a Kingfisher, Executioner and a Iron Cheetah.  Further, I do not have to tell them what a Iron Cheetah is, if they do not know that is information they could/should have had or could gain and so they are responsible for their lack of knowledge.  But if I just said, 'assault star' then I am responsible for their lack of knowledge and it could be construed as dishonorable- not this does not mean you have to disclose loadouts.

Circle this back around to codexes.  Say in 3066 as part of the Horses preparing for their invasion they send a force for a friendly trial against the Warden Wolves as part of the prep for material/resource sharing & support as referenced in the Cygnus & Hellstar fluff.  Well, if I am the Horse commander and find out the 1st Strike Grenadiers will be the defending force . . . well, that instantly tells me some things.  Star Colonel Hampton Schroeder is a bit of a special case.  He was a Elemental and took so much damage physically he could no longer operate the battle armor.  Schroeder underwent physical rebuilding and therapy along with retraining into a Mechwarrior- he finds the cockpits small and uncomfortable.  Everything but that last, which could be assumed based on the physical measurements, would be revealed in his codex.

And that is a LOT of information for our hypothetical Horse commander to make a battle plan around.
1-  Longer the Trial goes on, the more exhausted and frustrated the opposing commander might be
2-  Expect the opposing commander to have a excellent understanding of Elemental tactics and use in combined arms- should be passed to subcommanders
3-  Expect the opposing cluster to be well trained in Elemental tactics
4-  Expect cluster's Elemental component to be extremely proficient, no disconnect for the MW CO over BA forces that is commonly found
5-  As a former Wolf frontline Elemental during the Invasion he will have experience fighting masses of vehicles but very little in operating/using vehicles with mechs
6-  I would know how often, based on his codex, he had fought the Horses or a comparable Clan force (Spirits/Bears IMO) and the results.

This means . . . as the Horse commander, I should not make plans to get extra advantages or a decisive victory from my Infantry/BA component.  I would expect the Wolf commander to choose a battle ground that limits the usual HH integration of Elementals and armor with mechs in the expectation as a Horse commander I would be relying on those components.

To circle back around . . . there is a reason intelligence operations since Grog picked up a rock and bashed Mog on the head have sought to learn as much about the opposing commander as possible- why sports teams analyze tape about quarterback and coach tendencies in situations so they can manipulate the situations to put the QB/coach in what was proven the most disadvantageous position possible.

[BrianDavion]

we know that unit data is sent, but we also know it's limits, due to the Wolcott trick.

presumably thus what's actually shared at Batchall is the unit name it's commander and the unit's battle record.

[Colt Ward]

They also send codexes as referenced in various sections, the IS does not have something exactly the same and so they included personnel information- which was faked up at Wolcott.

[The Wobbly Guy]

If they followed this process, then it should take time to process the batchall. But most of the time we just see them close the bidding on the spot.

Of course, a lot of it is for dramatic license. The flow of the story would suffer if a commander says, "Thanks for the information. Please hang around in orbit while my staff digests the info you just dumped on us."

I think one side can conceal or show as much information as they want, and that will be reflected in the bidding process. If one side decides to say only that they're attacking with a trinary, no info on tonnage, mech chassis, or experience levels, the opposing side would have the leeway to decide what sort of response they want to muster, with the cut-down determined by their available intel (so-and-so cluster is average medium weight). If they overbid an elite assault trinary against a light regular trinary, the gain in honour is virtually nil. But if a commander can somehow approach the cut-down and win with minimal forces and intel, then they gain much more glory and honour.

But if the other side did open with all the available info, then the other side, even if they win, gains much less glory as a victory against known odds is still inferior to a victory against unknown odds, all else being equal.

[Colt Ward]

Often times the bids are sent once they are in the system- at least in the OZs . . . gives you 5-8 days generally to look through information.

[The Wobbly Guy]

Often times the bids are sent once they are in the system- at least in the OZs . . . gives you 5-8 days generally to look through information.

And sometimes it can be all of a sudden, as the Nova Cats did to the Smoked Jags on Wayside. Generally, it should be a bit more systematic, but pirate points and sudden attacks against key installations on shared planets also occur in enough frequency for there to be some vagaries in the bidding process.

So the 'fog of war' factor has to affect the amount of honour gained/lost.

[cmerwin]

And sometimes it can be all of a sudden, as the Nova Cats did to the Smoked Jags on Wayside. Generally, it should be a bit more systematic, but pirate points and sudden attacks against key installations on shared planets also occur in enough frequency for there to be some vagaries in the bidding process.

So the 'fog of war' factor has to affect the amount of honour gained/lost.

That's a really good point. Although it does make me wonder if a Clan's attitudes towards zellbringen also relates to their attitudes about biding and batchalls. We Novas are pretty opportunistic when it comes to zellbringen (saKhan Cairns even telling troops to leave it behind when fighting IS forces), and the Novas are definitely interested in making the Jags look bad. Whereas I wonder if a more traditional clan like Jade Falcon is more by-the-book with the bidding process.