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Author Topic: Bloodnamed freebirths?  (Read 7124 times)

ScarletDevil

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Bloodnamed freebirths?
« on: 01 February 2011, 00:44:53 »
So I am reading the Jade Phoenix trilogy (it's really good so far) and they specifically mention that although rare freebirths can earn a bloodname.

But I had always been under the impression that bloodnames were limited to trueborn since they would be the ones that would have the appropriate genetic heritage to claim one.

Or do they mean that theoretically a freeborn who was the result of two trueborn warriors could claim a bloodname through their parents?

Sorry if this is overly simple question, but I'm confused :-[
« Last Edit: 01 February 2011, 00:59:58 by ScarletDevil »

Stormfury

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #1 on: 01 February 2011, 01:05:25 »
Prior to the precedent set by Phelan and/or Diana, the only way a Freebirth could earn a Bloodname is if one was bestowed by order of an ilKhan.

Nothing actually prevents the use of Freebirth (or even non-warrior) genes to create successive generations of warriors. A Bloodname only garauntees that the warrior's genes will be considered for inclusion in the eugenics program, not that they will be used.
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ClarkeMarek

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #2 on: 01 February 2011, 01:28:33 »
Actually, I wanna say that if the freebirth's mother was a trueborn, said could compete, but I'm not 100% positive.  I do know that in Phelan's case, it's because one of his ancestors on his mother's side was the founder of the Ward bloodhouse. 
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Jaim Magnus

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #3 on: 01 February 2011, 05:32:40 »
It IS possible for a freeborn who has a matralinial connection to a bloodname to compete... it's just rare in the extreme.  The only two cases we've seen are Phelan Kell/Wolf/Ward/Kell and Diana Pryde.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #4 on: 01 February 2011, 10:59:46 »
There's also mention of it from very early on.  The first Truscott we hear about besides Absalom is his son (Clancy, iirc).  It's conceivable that for a few generations while things were cementing there could have been freeborn children of bloodnamed trueborn.  Then nothing until the invasion era.  But that is mostly speculation, and still doesn't answer how Diana pryde got to compete, since her mother wasn't bloodnamed, or even a warrior.
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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #5 on: 01 February 2011, 11:28:10 »
There's also mention of it from very early on.  The first Truscott we hear about besides Absalom is his son (Clancy, iirc).  It's conceivable that for a few generations while things were cementing there could have been freeborn children of bloodnamed trueborn.  Then nothing until the invasion era.  But that is mostly speculation, and still doesn't answer how Diana pryde got to compete, since her mother wasn't bloodnamed, or even a warrior.

While her mother did not actually have a bloodname, she was still a Pryde, however.  Bloodnames are determined along the maternal lines- as Peri was a Pryde, so was Diana.

Now, why she was allowed to compete?  Marthe (the Khan) allowed it, probably because she knew Aidan and Peri.  It's an exception, not the rule, however.

In fact, doesn't Marthe explain her reasoning in Falcon Rising?  I think it had something to do with her respect/love for Aidan, and explains to the Clan that as she's Aidan's daughter, as well as two Pryde trueborns, Diana was 'close enough' to be worth the right to compete.
 
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Hawkeye Jim

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #6 on: 01 February 2011, 15:23:08 »
Aren't many of the non-warriors trueborns anyway, those who failed as warriors but may be good at something else? I would think they might use some of those bloodlines just to keep some variety in the mix.

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #7 on: 01 February 2011, 15:54:46 »
Aren't many of the non-warriors trueborns anyway, those who failed as warriors but may be good at something else? I would think they might use some of those bloodlines just to keep some variety in the mix.

"Many" is subjective.  While we know most trueborns wash out and/or killed during training, the Clan civilian population is much larger than the warrior caste- something to the effect of 0.001% of the entire Clan population.  Even if only 2 or 3% of a sibko makes it into the warrior caste, all the washouts becoming civilians would be a drop in the bucket in comparison.

That being said, I think in the old books it said that some civilian genes are mixed into the genepool to help prevent inbreeding and the like.  Of course, the older books were sometimes in error (Blood of Kerensky stated that there were 600 Bloodnames, not 800, Phelan survived a shot to the head from an ER PPC blast, and Vlad's Executioner variant is impossible to build without modifying the base chasis for example.  The KIA section from Tukayyid is also pretty inaccurate as I recall)... so whether that's still the case or not, I'm not sure.
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Nibs

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #8 on: 01 February 2011, 17:43:09 »
Now, why she was allowed to compete?

Because Falcon Rising was two hundred pages of freeborns high-fiving and wisecracking with contractions?

ClarkeMarek

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #9 on: 02 February 2011, 00:11:20 »
There's also mention of it from very early on.  The first Truscott we hear about besides Absalom is his son (Clancy, iirc).  It's conceivable that for a few generations while things were cementing there could have been freeborn children of bloodnamed trueborn.  Then nothing until the invasion era.  But that is mostly speculation, and still doesn't answer how Diana pryde got to compete, since her mother wasn't bloodnamed, or even a warrior.

Yep.  The first generation or so had freeborns with bloodnames.  In fact, IIRC, Phillip Drummond's daughter was the Nova Cat's second Khan, though she held the Rossi bloodname in her mother's honor.(IIRC, her mother was not one of the 800, though one of her second cousins was.  How it made her eligible, I forget.)
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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #10 on: 02 February 2011, 00:47:26 »
As clearly shown in Phelan's case, you do NOT have to be the child of a female with a bloodname.
You just have to be descended from one of the 800 through your mother.

I say this because it doesn't just have to be the 1st generation of removal.
Unless I'm mistaken you could have a freeborn that has been freeborn for a few generations but still comes from trueborn stock and if they were a warrior and got backing by on of the 24 other bloodnamed or won a Grand Melee they COULD win a bloodname.
Its just VERY RARE and HARD.

Diana was allowed NOT because Peri did or did not have a bloodname, but because she was related to the founder of the Prydes through her mothers lineage, period, end of story.
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Alan Grant

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #11 on: 02 February 2011, 12:37:44 »
I suspect it was more common in the Clan's early history. The first few generations of warriors. Before Trueborn superiority and arrogance was quite so firmly established. Then it became more and more rare until it was unheard of (until Phelan, Diana).

Many Clan institutions, including Zellbrigen, didn't suddenly exist like they do today, overnight. They were built up through time.

Hawkeye Jim

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #12 on: 02 February 2011, 12:46:42 »
Some of the Clans appear to be more reluctant than others to accept the new ideas...Wolverine, Widowmaker, Mongoose.....

fubl

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #13 on: 16 February 2011, 23:50:01 »
Wasn't for phelan also part of it his mother received wounds that wolf dragoon scientist had to help them with

Guardsman

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #14 on: 16 February 2011, 23:56:29 »
By the Dark Age, Akira Brahe and Ragnar Magnusson somehow became founders of new Bloodnames.
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Alan Grant

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #15 on: 17 February 2011, 11:20:39 »
Cut off from the rest of Clan Society, unable to swap legacies with the Homeworld Clans, or Clans in the Inner Sphere that you hate, the Warrior Caste genepool has shrunk from a puddle to a shot glass. New genes are probably required. Hince the new bloodnames.


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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #16 on: 17 February 2011, 11:53:33 »
By the Dark Age, Akira Brahe and Ragnar Magnusson somehow became founders of new Bloodnames.

That was explained in one of the WizKids' articles.  From what I remember, the Ghost Bears create a new Trial to allow the creation of new Bloodnames so Ragnar could become Bloodnamed (and keep his Magnusson name to appeal to the Rasahague civilians).  Without a Grand Council (much less an ilKhan), there wasn't a way to do it otherwise.
 
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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #17 on: 17 February 2011, 13:04:51 »
I would argue that while the general rules are universal (matralinial decent, for example) the actual application goes down to each Clan and each Blood House.  So while the more liberal Wolves have no objection to any old Freebirth compeating, and the Ward House has no probleming alowing the dieing wish of their leader to nominate one, the Falcons had a lot more reluctance, and the Vipers even more than that.  One imagines that the Zalman or Sinclair house from the Vipers would work very hard to prevent any freebirths from compeating for their blood rights.  So while the child of two Sinclairs might technicly be elegable, they're a lot less likely to be able to take part in the blood name conests than someone who's great x 9 uncle was the founder of the Ward blood house, or someone who's grand mother was a Sainze (they're noted to alow such freebirths to become Warriors, not fight for blood names, but they're also slyly noted to take freebirth blood into their ranks to keep the gene pool fresh.  its a long shot, but better than the Vipers)
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Guardsman

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #18 on: 17 February 2011, 13:45:42 »
That was explained in one of the WizKids' articles.  From what I remember, the Ghost Bears create a new Trial to allow the creation of new Bloodnames so Ragnar could become Bloodnamed (and keep his Magnusson name to appeal to the Rasahague civilians).  Without a Grand Council (much less an ilKhan), there wasn't a way to do it otherwise.

Does anyone have a source on this article? I'd love to read it.
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roosterboy

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #19 on: 17 February 2011, 13:54:56 »
It's in the Dark Age INN document that can be found on the Downloads page of this site. Search the PDF for "Brahe" and you should find a reference to Senator Leslie Brahe (not the article you want) and an article about Clan Bloodlines (that's the one).

Screw it, just looked it up myself so I could give you the exact page number: It's the article "Narrow Bloodlines: A Look at the Great Reavings, Then and Now" on p314 of the PDF.
« Last Edit: 17 February 2011, 13:57:56 by roosterboy »

Guardsman

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #20 on: 17 February 2011, 14:00:01 »
It's in the Dark Age INN document that can be found on the Downloads page of this site. Search the PDF for "Brahe" and you should find a reference to Senator Leslie Brahe (not the article you want) and an article about Clan Bloodlines (that's the one).

Screw it, just looked it up myself so I could give you the exact page number: It's the article "Narrow Bloodlines: A Look at the Great Reavings, Then and Now" on p314 of the PDF.

Thanks Rooster.

Guardsman reads.

Okay, so how did Akira Brahe of the Kell Hounds end up in Clan Wolf? I know it's probably an easy story, but I'm just curious how it happened? Did they absorb the Hounds?
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roosterboy

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #21 on: 17 February 2011, 14:26:02 »
Okay, so how did Akira Brahe of the Kell Hounds end up in Clan Wolf? I know it's probably an easy story, but I'm just curious how it happened?

We don't know that he did. Note that the article gives no indication if the Brahe Bloodname was founded in 3085 or 3100 or 3120 or who the actual founder of the line was. Could have been one of his kids or grandkids or whatever.

Quote
Did they absorb the Hounds?

Nope, but given the close relationship between the Exiles and the Hounds, I wouldn't be surprised to see some cross-pollination between them.

Guardsman

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #22 on: 17 February 2011, 15:15:39 »
Actually, the children/grandchildren angle makes more sense, since by the Jihad, he was pretty much old man Kell, with a canon grandson or granddaughter in his 30’s, can’t remember the name off hand.
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roosterboy

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #23 on: 17 February 2011, 15:24:18 »
Actually, the children/grandchildren angle makes more sense, since by the Jihad, he was pretty much old man Kell, with a canon grandson or granddaughter in his 30’s, can’t remember the name off hand.

He's got four kids—Yorinaga and Gustav being the only two named to date—and at least one granddaughter, Leslie, who becomes a Republic senator.

And, in fact, Akira himself was dying by the late Jihad period, so that makes it even more unlikely he is the founder of the Brahe Bloodname. The assault on Terra was probably his last big thing.

Guardsman

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #24 on: 17 February 2011, 15:36:18 »
He's got four kids—Yorinaga and Gustav being the only two named to date—and at least one granddaughter, Leslie, who becomes a Republic senator.

And, in fact, Akira himself was dying by the late Jihad period, so that makes it even more unlikely he is the founder of the Brahe Bloodname. The assault on Terra was probably his last big thing.

Great character though, in his own right. His father was fantastic. But he had a great run too. And it seems, his kids, or grandkids, did all right too. :)
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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #25 on: 17 February 2011, 15:53:44 »
It's in the Dark Age INN document that can be found on the Downloads page of this site. Search the PDF for "Brahe" and you should find a reference to Senator Leslie Brahe (not the article you want) and an article about Clan Bloodlines (that's the one).

Screw it, just looked it up myself so I could give you the exact page number: It's the article "Narrow Bloodlines: A Look at the Great Reavings, Then and Now" on p314 of the PDF.

Hey RB, I remember reading a Wizkids' preview of the Clan Wolf units before their release for DarkAge.  In it, they discussed their design philosophies behind the newer units like the Werewolf and the paint schemes.

It wasn't an actual INN article.  Do you happen to know if those were backed up to?  Any ideas where I could start looking for a copy of those articles?
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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #26 on: 17 February 2011, 17:08:21 »
You could try the Internet Archive Wayback Machine.

I'll see what I have at home.

Phantom000

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #27 on: 28 May 2022, 11:33:43 »
I have not read as much of the Clan novels as I would like to, but I always thought that this is how Clans create new blood names. If a freebirth with no connection to the Clan's founders but rose to the rank of Star Colonel, their mother's name would become their blood name.

I suppose if they were from outside the Clan that would not automatically mean their line would be added to the clan's genetic legacy. I could see the Clan allowing them to use their freebirth name, in recognition of their achievement if nothing.

"What was your mother's name?"

"Kent"

"Then you will be Star Colonel Adam Kent of Clan Ghost Bear."

BrianDavion

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #28 on: 28 May 2022, 13:40:10 »
I have not read as much of the Clan novels as I would like to, but I always thought that this is how Clans create new blood names. If a freebirth with no connection to the Clan's founders but rose to the rank of Star Colonel, their mother's name would become their blood name.

I suppose if they were from outside the Clan that would not automatically mean their line would be added to the clan's genetic legacy. I could see the Clan allowing them to use their freebirth name, in recognition of their achievement if nothing.

"What was your mother's name?"

"Kent"

"Then you will be Star Colonel Adam Kent of Clan Ghost Bear."

you'd be wrong, being a star colonel does not automaticly win you a blood name.

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Re: Bloodnamed freebirths?
« Reply #29 on: 28 May 2022, 23:21:09 »
I have not read as much of the Clan novels as I would like to, but I always thought that this is how Clans create new blood names. If a freebirth with no connection to the Clan's founders but rose to the rank of Star Colonel, their mother's name would become their blood name.

I suppose if they were from outside the Clan that would not automatically mean their line would be added to the clan's genetic legacy. I could see the Clan allowing them to use their freebirth name, in recognition of their achievement if nothing.

"What was your mother's name?"

"Kent"

"Then you will be Star Colonel Adam Kent of Clan Ghost Bear."

It's explained in one of the Shrapnels at least for the Inner Sphere. The Clans have a specific trial. A Clain will propose a candidate. The other Clans will send forces against them if they want to (one per Clan depending on what the candidate is vying for, usually mechs, but I'm sure there's the odd aerospace and rare fighter candidate). If the candidate wins, their name family name becomes a new Bloodhouse. If they lose, their line will never be allowed to take the Trial again.

Not sure if it is dependent on the maternal line or not though.

 

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