Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk

[GreekFire]

But the sheer gall of doubling Trinaries feels farfetched. Then when you consider that apparently Smythe-Jewel used the same deceptive bidding practices against the Coyotes, even the in-story rationale - the fact that the horses field two-to-a-point vehicle Stars, and five-per-point Battle Armour - falls apart, as the Coyotes would (presumably) have fielded neither of these formations. Not sure about the vehicles, but certainly not the BA.

Looking at this again, there is canon support for it, though. Arguments could be made about how the text is presented in the Horse and Mandrill sections, but the trial as described in FM:WC's Coyote entry states that the Smythe-Jewel commander "rearranged his force composition and deliberately led his opponent to believe she was going up against a much smaller force."

The gradual restructuring of Clan formations during the Golden Century is an interesting topic, though. The modifications to the initial Klondike-era formations---adopted by all Clans, even the militarily conservative hypocrites, the Blood Spirits---show that leaders of the era must not have considered Kerensky's military formations as being immutable.

This doesn't strike me as being too bizarre. In certain cases, as with the Coyotes, Clans had been led by one or more first-generation freeborn founders until even after the introduction of the OmniMech. It's not a huge stretch to believe that these individuals (or their second-generation protégés), having lived through or directly heard about the formation of their Clans and the resultant massive societal and military changes, could have been more flexible in their implementation of Kerensky's tenets.

I see overall military conservatism as potentially really kicking in for the Clans once those first and second-generation leaders passed the torch, likely around the late 29th century or so. The third-generation leaders would no longer have heard first-handed accounts of the formation of the Clans, with the very controlled Clan educational system forcing a natural gravitation towards the status quo.

[Kojak]

I wonder what the fourteen original Kindraa of the Mandrills was to begin with?

Where is that number from?

[Takiro]

I'd say all or nearly all of the Kindraa with hyphenated names were once separate Kindraa. They were less like absorptions and more like marriages and retained the names.

Agreed except for Kindraa Mattila-Carrol because they are the first hyphenated mentioned specifically in response to Burrock attacks upon the Mandrills. It could be that this was an early merger (see page 38 of FM CC which refers to the rapid 14 to 12 Kindraa birth). Oppositely, Kindraa Faraday is mentioned specifically without Tanaga indicating that could be another early Kindraa.

There are 14 Exclusive Bloodnames in Field Manual Crusader Clans which doesn't include the Smythe-Jewels. So basically, unless there is another notable bloodname in the Mandrills I am not aware of the answer is starring us in the face.

The birth of the hyphenated, perhaps with Mattila-Carrol and Smythe-Jewel, reducing the overall to 12 leaves us with 10 of the Exclusives. We know Sainze, Payne, and Faraday were the strongest three to begin with. Beyl is another adding Grant after the Smythe-Jewel Absorption, and of course Kline.

How does Mick-Kreese shake out I'm not sure especially with Goulet factoring in (likely not a Kindraa IMO). Lopez is not mentioned as a Kindraa either but it would be interesting if Kindraa Mick put all the Infantry bloodnames together at the earliest before Elementals. Combining into a hyphenated partnership later could be a natural extension but gives us two separate Kindraa early on.

Tanaga being an early Mechwarrior Kindraa along with Jannik is a solid possibility with Lynn possibly joining the fray as an early aerospace Kindraa.

There you have it folks - asked and answered by Takiro - the original fourteen err, dozen Kindraa. (circa 2835)

Sainze, Payne, and Faraday (three most powerful Kindraa)
Mattila-Carrol (the first hyphenated Kindraa? separate at first but joined forces quickly)
Smythe-Jewel (the second hyphenated Kindraa? separate at first but joined forces quickly)
Kline (Mechwarrior Kindraa)
Tanaga (Mechwarrior Kindraa)
Jannik (Mechwarrior Kindraa)
Lynn (Aerospace Kindraa)
Kreese (Aerospace Kindraa)
Beyl (Aerospace Kindraa)
Mick (Infantry Kindraa)

Where is that number from?

Field Manual Crusader Clans. Twice mentioned. Last paragraph page 38 (which mentions two Kindraa were soon absorbed reducing us to a dozen). Last paragraph page 42.


On the battle with the Horses there is also the zell issue but regardless the Grand Council is going to be okay with these games because they further Clan technological sharing despite their shadiness. Coyote (from canon not the story), I believe simply recognizes this with their stance lulling the Smythe-Jewels into a false sense of security and setting the stage for their death on Foster.

[truetanker]

Takiro?

Would you know the Kindraa status, be it Mech, Aero, Vehicle or Infantry of  the first seven in your list?

Sainze, Payne, and Faraday (three most powerful Kindraa)
Mattila-Carrol (the first hyphenated Kindraa? separate at first but joined forces quickly)
Smythe-Jewel (the second hyphenated Kindraa? separate at first but joined forces quickly)
Kline (Mechwarrior Kindraa)
Tanaga (Mechwarrior Kindraa)
Jannik (Mechwarrior Kindraa)
Lynn (Aerospace Kindraa)
Kreese (Aerospace Kindraa)
Beyl (Aerospace Kindraa)
Mick (Infantry Kindraa)

Would like to hypothesis on what formations they where. I really want to say mostly Mech and Aero, but the other two classifications are present.

TT

[Takiro]

Takiro?

Would you know the Kindraa status, be it Mech, Aero, Vehicle or Infantry of  the first seven in your list?

Would like to hypothesis on what formations they where. I really want to say mostly Mech and Aero, but the other two classifications are present.

TT

I'd just refer back to the Exclusive Bloodname Table on page 37 of Field Manual Crusader Clans for any clues on that.

Sainze and Faraday are General bloodnames although page 43 of FM CC says the Faraday name while strong "its pilots do not fare so well when compared to others" perhaps indicates an aerospace weakness. Unlike Sainze and Payne they do play well with others so perhaps cooperation with others goes a long way for Sainze.

Payne is a Mechwarrior name which hasn't change much over the years it would seem. Their reversal in the Smythe-Jewel affair described in detail in the story along with their Warden beliefs is going to leave them constantly under strain.

Mattila-Carrol being General Bloodnames would be a big guess if not for their appearance in FM CC. Thankfully, page 43 and 49 detail this Kindraa quite well not to mention additional canon sources before their Wars of Reaving canon fate. Smythe-Jewel I can only infer specialties based on their history. Trialing for the OmniMech and Elemental as well as asking for safcon (stretch, yes but still) indicates they are a ground based Kindraa. I'd say Mechwarriors before Elementals with aerospace being a distant third.

Further, I'd have to state that Mick would be the Infantry unicorn of the Clan as before the Elemental it would be really tough to envision any such a Kindraa surviving. That being said it could lead to an earlier absorption by others or possibly they and Kreese being one of the first hyphenated Kindraa with Smythe-Jewel following later. 

[Alan Grant]

I don't think the Mandrills had any infantry at the beginning.

The only Clans that seemed to have deployed infantry at the founding of the Clans were the Hell's Horses, who made it part of a routine part of their touman, declaring point commanders warriors and the rest auxiliaries, and the Scorpions had a special forces star of infantry, with some of its members popping up as Elemental lines later in the Scorpions' history.

EDIT: The Snow Ravens also mention having an infantry contingent, per Op; Klondike.

Please tell me if I've forgotten any Clans but that's the only ones I can recall. At the founding of the Clans mechwarriors and pilots dominated the small toumans of each Clan. Other branches were rare and often get called out and mentioned in the Operation Klondike book because they were rare. Something like 70% of Kerensky's 800 were mechwarriors, 25% were pilots. Leaving just a handful of founding warriors in other branches, and some of those would have been vehicles, which also get referenced in a few Clans that deployed them.

Across the Clans, the Elemental bloodlines mostly started as something other than infantry. So in this case I'd guess Mick was a mechwarrior line in the beginning. That was probably true for most of the lines that eventually became Elemental lines across the Clans (minus the Clans that actually bred infantry, which were few).

Also, keep in mind at the beginning, it wouldn't have been clear which bloodlines were good at producing what. Just because the Bloodname House Founder was a mechwarrior or a pilot, doesn't mean they were only good at that, or that the Bloodname House only pursued that. It would have taken generations of experimentation and practical experience actually producing warriors of different specialties and watching how they perform to gather this data. That meant producing warriors of different branches, just to see where your bloodline excelled.

[Takiro]

Solid points Alan Grant. There are notable infantry commanders (Diamond Shark and Wolf springs to mind and would you count naval boarding actions?) but I don't remember any from Operation Klondike from the Mandrills offhand. I suspect the Mandrills have to deploy some infantry but you could well be correct. The Kindraa are so young at this point in time that anything is possible. Alot in flux.

Force strength wild guesses would vary from the weakest Kindraa (when I think about it this would probably be most of them at the time; 7 - Kline, Tanaga, Jannik, Lynn, Kreese, Beyl, Mick) at a minimum size of 2 clusters for each likely a front and second line unit fielded by all. For the big three (Sainze, Payne, and Faraday) there could be as many as four clusters present while a few (perhaps only the two hyphens) would likely be mid-range with 3 clusters present. That would be a total of 32 clusters and to be clear a lot are understrength likely using Binaries rather than Trinaries - so in my vision it sounds like a lot but is likely pretty thin. Reducing these numbers to 3 for the big Kindraa and 2 for everyone else gets us to 27 Clusters.

[Mendrugo]

I don't think the Mandrills had any infantry at the beginning.

The only Clans that seemed to have deployed infantry at the founding of the Clans were the Hell's Horses, who made it part of a routine part of their touman, declaring point commanders warriors and the rest auxiliaries, and the Scorpions had a special forces star of infantry, with some of its members popping up as Elemental lines later in the Scorpions' history.

EDIT: The Snow Ravens also mention having an infantry contingent, per Op; Klondike.

According to the Blood Spirit writeup in Field Manual: Crusader Clans, Nicholas Kerensky initially mandated the following composition for each Cluster: three BattleMech Trinaries, one Combat Vehicle Trinary and one Infantry Trinary.  So, every Clan would have had infantry auxiliaries in Operation Klondike (staffed by troops that failed the MechWarrior/AeroJock Trials but didn't wash out completely).

[Shivetya]

Looking at this again, there is canon support for it, though. Arguments could be made about how the text is presented in the Horse and Mandrill sections, but the trial as described in FM:WC's Coyote entry states that the Smythe-Jewel commander "rearranged his force composition and deliberately led his opponent to believe she was going up against a much smaller force.

There's a definite lack of wiggle room there. I have to be careful reading these texts as a Mandrill fanboy as opposed to a neutral observer. It's too tempting to jump on the opportunities offered by the more ambiguous statements. That said, I'll try to offer up a few inconsistencies that should (personal preference*) have encouraged a more subtle approach for Smythe-Jewel's bidding.

One (admittedly thin) thread I'm clinging to is a small passage from the Lancelot C entry in TRO: Golden Century. Emphasis mine.

"...when it won possession of OmniMech technology from Clan Coyote. Then-Star Captain William Smythe used a pair of Lancelot Cs alongside light 'Mechs to give his striker Stars more size and firepower than the Coyotes expected."

"...These tactics and inherent advantages led to a Mandrill victory, but the devious bidding employed by Smythe would eventually lead to his Kindraa's demise and..."

We could read "size" as either tonnage, or number of 'Mechs. I don't think there is a strong implication towards either, but I would have read this intuitively as the force composition of striker Stars shifting away from light 'Mechs and instead replacing two of the five with unexpected heavy 'Mechs. As opposed to simply increasing the number of 'Mechs to 7. This is the type of force composition monkeying that I want to believe was being performed.   

I include the second quote more for semantics than content. Given "these tactics and inherent advantages" (advantage was described as weight and range) would suggest that it is the tactics described in the entry that led to victory, and "the devious bidding" also suggests that the deviousness the text is referring to is the same described above. To be fair, the exclusion of "the" would suggest otherwise, so I'm hinging more than maybe I should on that single word, but along with the rest of the entry ...I want to believe!

It's not a huge stretch to believe that these individuals (or their second-generation protégés), having lived through or directly heard about the formation of their Clans and the resultant massive societal and military changes, could have been more flexible in their implementation of Kerensky's tenets.

Then, if we consider the way the author presented the Smythe-Jewel warrior's response to Smythe's surprise reorganization we get the impression that this instance was the first time they had encountered this sort of behaviour. Jewel is shocked, and considers the reasons for why Smythe had "risked so much with his batchall", which again would suggest this is the first time the warrior had been made aware of this behaviour. It all comes down to producing this impression that the warriors present for the Trial are surprised by how far Smythe stoops, which - if this trick had been pulled in a similar manner with the Coyotes before - should not have have been particularly shocking.

Amirault I could understand being unaware of Smythe's tricks, after all the Coyotes had been "notably silent" about the business and it had been 18 years (6, my timeline was waaay off) since William Smythe's victory of Coyote - which would have provided more than enough time for most of the stories/outrage over the OmniMech Trial to fade away. But, the warriors of Smythe-Jewel at the least should (opinion*) have had some inkling of what had happened previously, and recognised the ruse from their last (incredibly important) victory.

But all this odd behaviour might just be a symptom of the strange lack of information regarding the Smythe-Jewel vs Coyote OmniMech trials in the story. Given how important winning OmniMechs should have been - with the failure of the other Kindraa, how it massively altered the Mandrill/Spirit relationship, and the stated similarities between the Horse and Coyote Trials -  I feel like its absence was a deliberate choice by the author (easier for continuity later?), and could be the reason why the insane extent of the deception reads as fresh to the Smythe-Jewel warriors. To be fair, the outrage of Jewel and the other warriors would have been reasonable the author had chosen to give us a peek at the OmniMech Trials, but they may have built up a bit of a continuity pickle for whoever writes the Coyote encounter.   

And of course, all this assumes that "smaller" in the Coyote section of FM:WC isn't referencing the number of 'Mechs. Which, right from the get-go requires a more...creative interpretation than any of the arguments I'd presented.

[Alan Grant]

According to the Blood Spirit writeup in Field Manual: Crusader Clans, Nicholas Kerensky initially mandated the following composition for each Cluster: three BattleMech Trinaries, one Combat Vehicle Trinary and one Infantry Trinary.  So, every Clan would have had infantry auxiliaries in Operation Klondike (staffed by troops that failed the MechWarrior/AeroJock Trials but didn't wash out completely).

I've often wondered if this setup appeared AFTER Op. Klondike. Because it isn't reflected in Klondike at all.

If I had to assign a "Standard" to Clan Composition in the Op: Klondike era, it was something like 30 BattleMechs and 10 aerospace fighters (an ASF point consisted of 1 ASF then).

From there we see differences pop up. Some Clans had stronger ASF complements, some brought vehicle or infantry stars instead.

We do see that the Clans treated some combat personnel as auxiliaries rather than real warriors (one of Kerensky's 800). This is reflected in Hell's Horses infantry and vehicle below the point commander/vehicle commander rank, ship's crew, I suspect naval marines on spacecraft and whatever else. In Op. Klondike we see a "real warrior" step onto the bridge of a warship to command a space battle. But that doesn't mean that warship lacked a crew or marines prior to that moment. It was just that one of Kerensky's 800 had to come aboard and be in command of the operation for the duration.

But the original Clan Cluster structure presented by the Blood Spirits just doesn't seem to be present anywhere. Literally no Clan appear to have that formation structure in Klondike (and if you do the math, that organization adds up to more than 40 warriors, even if you only treat point commanders and vehicle commanders as warriors). So I take that to be a post-Klondike organization. It was after Op. Klondike that each Clan began to grow, forming whole Galaxies of warriors through a combination of adopting new warriors from the general population and birthing more from the Iron Wombs.

After Klondike, it's very possible the Fire Mandrill Kindraa did adopt this organization, and continued to follow it for a while before, like all of the Clans except the Spirits, drifting away from it.