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Author Topic: Clan Jade Falcon III: Admittedly, We May Have Falconed a Little Too Hard  (Read 3048 times)

rebs

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That's how I read it as well. Malvina did it once, to make a statement and wipe out most of her opposition in one swoop, potentially avoiding a long civil war rending that would have weakened the Clan more. And it's not like the Falcon navy had no other WarShips to spare.

The Falcons love them some Aegis cruisers.  Good, strong, (and ancient at 700 years old and older) Terran Hegemony ships that predate the Star League. 

worktroll

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And it's not like the Falcon navy had no other WarShips to spare.

I doubt that part would have crossed Malvina's mind.

Now, I feel - partly because I'm probably older than most - that I get the Falcon twist on the Mongol doctrine. The Horses were all about strike fast, strike hard, etc - but [note: all in character, not my personal belief] the Falcons have been considering themselves the epitome of Clan ideals for ages, and the savrishi Spheroids just won't roll over and accept this! And the other Clans are all jealous, which is why they behave in underhanded ways to deny us! And after centuries of trying/being that good, the Universe still doesn't behave!

And given this frustration, some Falcons just feel "I am mad as hell, and I am not going to take any more! No more Mr. Nice Falcon (for given values of "nice".) You get one chance, and one chance only, and then it's whoop-ass all the way down, because I'm not wasting my time on uppity surats.

And that's a philosophical approach I could appreciate in a fictional faction, used as a protagonist not a hero faction. But I'm in two minds whether Malvina was just lazy writing, or an inevitable consequence of both the approach and Clan ways - the same way Leo Showers rose to the IlKhanship prior to the Invasion (which was also not a Good Thing in the long run.)
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rebs

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Now that Malvina may be spoken of in past tense (huzah!), the Falcons have to actually role play.  I can't wait to find ot where the new Khans will take them, and I'm pleased they survived Chingis Khan..

rebs

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And that's a philosophical approach I could appreciate in a fictional faction, used as a protagonist not a hero faction. But I'm in two minds whether Malvina was just lazy writing, or an inevitable consequence of both the approach and Clan ways - the same way Leo Showers rose to the IlKhanship prior to the Invasion (which was also not a Good Thing in the long run.)

Malvina as a villain was her own belligerent brand of evil and was quite good.  And it was predictable that she would break the Falcons.  As said, I am glad they were not completely destroyed and I look forward to what's ahead.  But right now the Falcons are a shadow of what they were.   

Brett Andrews was the same way.  Different but same, that old conflict of dichotomy.   He was refashioned into a tool to bring destruction to excess factions, and a story was weaved around his rise and fall, and aftermath as well. 
« Last Edit: 10 September 2021, 19:03:19 by rebs »

Orwell84

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I doubt that part would have crossed Malvina's mind.

True.

Malvina as a villain was her own belligerent brand of evil and was quite good.  And it was predictable that she would break the Falcons.  As said, I am glad they were not completely destroyed and I look forward to what's ahead.  But right now the Falcons are a shadow of what they were.   

Same. Hopefully we'll see the Clan as a whole become the Jade Phoenix and emulate their totem: smaller than the wolf or ghost bear, but just as ferocious.
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Cannonshop

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And yes, that's how - I think - the author portrayed that incident; that there was no depth Malvina would not plumb to terrorise her potential future opponents by visiting destruction on her current opponents. That's the Mongol doctrine taken to an extreme.

or, just a new twist on 'Standard naval tactics'. (See below)

Quote
The FedRat Ramming Lust? I suspect it sounded cool at the time, but like most joke tactics it's faded fast. First time you're a wit, second time you're a half wit, and it decays exponentially from there. And let's just agree not to discuss the naval 'brilliance' in HotW. IMHO, lazy writing.
  It's not just Fedrat, Aleksandr Kerensky did it too...quite a lot actually, though mostly only on-screen for the 'liberation' of Terra.  It stops being a joke when everybody does it, and thus far, more are doing it than are not, given the canon equipment lists and battles we've seen since day one.  that makes it Standard, something that large-scale military commanders must be getting taught to do back when they were trainees.

Given our earliest examples ARE so early within the universe's timeline, what makes Malvina's move innovative is combining it with another tactic in a quite efficient package in which the ship is rammed into the ground target instead of ramming merely to reach it for bombardment purposes.

Given that EVERYBODY's naval doctrine is based on SLDF doctrine,  this shows a thread of continuity in the training and tactics.  So congrats to the Jade Falcons for introducing the first significant innovation in naval tactics since 2781-the ramming orbital bombardment of an inhabited city.

(This also suggests we're going to see more of it, if we see more naval, from all current owners of naval assets, not less.)

See, a 'joke tactic' maybe gets used once or twice, when it gets used as the 'go to' and succeeds, it becomes standard-and ramming doesn't tend to appear in the fiction with the LOSING side of a battle as often as the winners.

HoTW underscores this, because that's how Alaric opened up his naval phase of the campaign (same way Aleks did at Sol system! ramming ships into things!!)

Thus, going back to where this all started, The remnant Falcon Navy has a limited number of ships to execute standard tactics with before that number is zero, but they would potentially face even FEWER ships, so the math still works out for them alone, never mind that the Snow Ravens are technically allies and have a few more they can crash into things (but won't, because that would deplete them below viability).


In short, it's not 'lazy writing' it's a carefully crafted illustration of the setting,  the tactic would be a 'joke tactic' if it was rare, but it's not rare, therefore it's simply 'how business is done'.
« Last Edit: 10 September 2021, 21:19:37 by Cannonshop »
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Crimson Dynamo

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My friends, I recently got my Wave Two KS pledge including the new Turkina, Night Gyr, and Black Lanner. I see reference to all three being seen on Tukayyid as prototypes brought back with the Khans and other Trueborn from the Homeworlds in 3051. What unit(s) would you imagine to be entrusted with putting these new designs through their paces?
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"You guys are facing a freaking Shadow Division! These guys have strict policies against playing fair!"

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Bren

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Turkina Keshik only to begin with.

Gradual spread after Tukayyid, but you don't really see them reliably in the rank-and-file until Coventry.

*EDIT: that said, in the interest of not side-lining a fancy new mini you could argue inclusion in a Galaxy command star or two ...
« Last Edit: 10 September 2021, 23:01:50 by Bren »

Crimson Dynamo

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Turkina Keshik only to begin with.

My initial thought too, but I don't see any reference to them actually being on Tukayyid, surprisingly enough.
"Well, I do, Marcus, and rule number one of the MAC has always been that the man with the plan leads. If we get shot up, I'm the first one to get my ticket punched. There are no flags in the MAC."
"And there never will be," Barton said, nodding his head in agreement.

"You guys are facing a freaking Shadow Division! These guys have strict policies against playing fair!"

"I don’t care. Kill them. I planned the defense so I know it will work. If they claim otherwise, they’re cowards. Any step back is a betrayal of me, and saying they don’t have enough men is just an excuse for incompetence and disloyalty. Tell the Krypteia to do it if you’re too soft but get it done." -Emperor Stefan Ukris Amaris I

The Wobbly Guy

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Finally got time to go through ilClan. At the risk of sounding melodramatic I can't really think of what to say just yet.

The previous thread lasted almost seven years. I wonder where we'll be when this thread closes.

I initially mistyped melotramatic and had a good laugh at the (freudian?) typo.

Melotraumatic is an actual word nowdays. 8)
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Melotraumatic

Bren

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My initial thought too, but I don't see any reference to them actually being on Tukayyid, surprisingly enough.

Jade Falcon Sourcebook and TRO: 3058.

LosTech Toaster

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Theoretically, yes. In practice? It's a safe bet that OZ is going to shrink very soon. Tamar Rising will be out in a couple of months so we'll find out exactly how much shrinkage soon enough.
I wonder if the Lyrans will retake Somerset. ???
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Crimson Dynamo

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Jade Falcon Sourcebook and TRO: 3058.

Hmm. Now this is interesting. I see exactly the references you describe, but the recent Battle of Tukayyid Chaos Campaign book completely fails to note their presence. I wonder if parts of the Keshik were somehow included in the "masterpiece of a bid" that saw the participating Galaxies restructured to facilitate the deployment of a large force while still securing a favorable timeframe...
"Well, I do, Marcus, and rule number one of the MAC has always been that the man with the plan leads. If we get shot up, I'm the first one to get my ticket punched. There are no flags in the MAC."
"And there never will be," Barton said, nodding his head in agreement.

"You guys are facing a freaking Shadow Division! These guys have strict policies against playing fair!"

"I don’t care. Kill them. I planned the defense so I know it will work. If they claim otherwise, they’re cowards. Any step back is a betrayal of me, and saying they don’t have enough men is just an excuse for incompetence and disloyalty. Tell the Krypteia to do it if you’re too soft but get it done." -Emperor Stefan Ukris Amaris I

nova_dew

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I wonder if the whole "give me ramming speed!" thing is from someone reading about the likes of the St. Nazaire raid (long story short the plan revolved around ramming a ship into something thought to be unbreakable, and is pretty much close to what the wolves did BTW) and thought dady K would know about it and used it for inspiration once and then it just tumbled out of control, Once is a cool nod to history, everyone and their gran doing it gets a bit samey.
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MDFification

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That's a very...shiny interpretation, but he's got it right-Clan Jade Falcon have been relegated to a ceremonial guard wholly owned by Alaric Ward.  They have lost all their infrastructure and most of their personnel and leadership, and had the top spot replaced by a mercenary owned by Alaric Ward.  they don't have a Vlad, or a Marthe, they've got a hireling, and they're logistically dependent upon their sponsors to keep eating.

A ceremonial guard for a warlord who claims the right to rule the entire universe, and is obligated by his culture to fight on the front in the wars he wages as a common soldier pilot of a 100 ton war machine, is not very ceremonial in my opinion. Jade Falcon is about to see a lot of action, and if they fail to save his ass even once, Alaric's new empire is over. They might not have their own military industrial complex anymore, but Alaric doesn't really have a choice other than to give them the best of the equipment he has, in whatever quantity they need to get the job done.

Of course, he also can't afford to see them led by anyone with an agenda that goes beyond "ensure Alaric stays alive and in power", so I wouldn't expect Jade Falcon to do anything interesting, politically speaking, for a while. They're probably going to be a combat unit, albeit an elite one, for the foreseeable future. So they'll do cool stuff, but that cool stuff is probably going to be "make Alaric's enemies die" and "extricate Alaric from this horribly dangerous situation he's insisted on walking into".

nova_dew

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A ceremonial guard for a warlord who claims the right to rule the entire universe, and is obligated by his culture to fight on the front in the wars he wages as a common soldier pilot of a 100 ton war machine, is not very ceremonial in my opinion. Jade Falcon is about to see a lot of action, and if they fail to save his ass even once, Alaric's new empire is over. They might not have their own military industrial complex anymore, but Alaric doesn't really have a choice other than to give them the best of the equipment he has, in whatever quantity they need to get the job done.

Of course, he also can't afford to see them led by anyone with an agenda that goes beyond "ensure Alaric stays alive and in power", so I wouldn't expect Jade Falcon to do anything interesting, politically speaking, for a while. They're probably going to be a combat unit, albeit an elite one, for the foreseeable future. So they'll do cool stuff, but that cool stuff is probably going to be "make Alaric's enemies die" and "extricate Alaric from this horribly dangerous situation he's insisted on walking into".

Alaric has already broken tradition by stating that he's above clan tradition now, Make Alaric's enemies die is the Jaguars job, should have gone to the Falcons so we could call them clan sneaky beakie... come one TPTB you could have given us that, just that, i'm a clan care bear player and even i would be all over clan sneaky beakie  :thumbsup:
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Bren

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Hmm. Now this is interesting. I see exactly the references you describe, but the recent Battle of Tukayyid Chaos Campaign book completely fails to note their presence. I wonder if parts of the Keshik were somehow included in the "masterpiece of a bid" that saw the participating Galaxies restructured to facilitate the deployment of a large force while still securing a favorable timeframe...

The Keshik is outside of the three Galaxies so I guess escaped mention that way.

I took a quick look at the book and noticed an (accidental?) retcon:

'During the bidding, the Falcon Khans kept all Galaxies’ Eyrie and Solahma Clusters on the board, where they were ignored by most other Khans as inconsequential—a sign of Falcon weakness.'

This contradicts Jade Falcon Sourcebook, which notes that only Gamma's Eyrie Cluster was on Tukayyid, and that most of Gamma, Delta and Vau's Solahma Cluster strength was back guarding recently captured worlds.

Scotty

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Having them stay in the bid does not mean they saw action.  The Falcons campaign swung very quickly, from what looked like sure victory (with no need to call in any of those units) to a withdrawal in fairly good order (and no reason to throw second line assets into a meaningless meat grinder).
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LosTech Toaster

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Did the sourcebook mention if they were Freebirth's? If it did then they could have been left out of action so the Trueborns wouldn't risk getting shown up by "lesser people."
They would never be allowed to live it down.

Another reason could be arrogance that said "We can do it with less than we said we could. Just to show everyone how tough we are!"

Plus they were fighting ComStar, which iirc was thought to just be a telecom company with no meaningful assets that could oppose the Clans.
Wasn't until later that they found out they had more and bigger guns that was generally known outside of their organization.
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Who's up for beating on the Draconis Combine?  >:D

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Oh! Me Me! Pick me!
Alright that's two. I have a Trinary ready to kick some Drac tail. I'm sure I'll see action against them anyway because a buddy of mine picked them.

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Given their new jobs, and a contact to Northwind through Tara Jadefalcon, anyone think it reasonable the Falcons might try to commission a Black Watch IIC sometime in the near future? :)
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Jaim Magnus

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Given Elizabeth Hazen's connection to the Black Watch, this seems likely.
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glitterboy2098

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Did the sourcebook mention if they were Freebirth's? If it did then they could have been left out of action so the Trueborns wouldn't risk getting shown up by "lesser people."
They would never be allowed to live it down.

Another reason could be arrogance that said "We can do it with less than we said we could. Just to show everyone how tough we are!"

Plus they were fighting ComStar, which iirc was thought to just be a telecom company with no meaningful assets that could oppose the Clans.
Wasn't until later that they found out they had more and bigger guns that was generally known outside of their organization.

could also be that they anticipated rolling over comstar rapidly and wanted garrison units in the bid so they could consolidate their gains immediately without accusations of violating their bid, freeing up the frontline units to fight the other clan's in the inevitable round of trials over who gets to lead the way to claim Terra.

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The Jade Falcons included Eyrie and Solahma clusters in their Tukayyid bid but did not include any dropships in their bid. This meant that they had to land farther away from their targets then other clans. It also meant the Com Guards couldn't contest their landing.

LosTech Toaster

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I'd say that restarting the Black Watch is a likely part of Jade Falcon's future. As a "bodyguard clan" it looks like they'll be doing at least something similar anyway. Add in the BL being a part of their history through Khan Elizabeth Hazen it could be said to be part of their history and clan birthright. Just imagine Elemental sized commando busting through your window!

Personally I'm ok with how things turned out on Terra. Sure I'd like Jade Falcon to be the ilClan but second place with being the bodyguards is good too. Better than what most the other clans got out of the invasion. Though some others are doing well.
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nova_dew

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I'd say that restarting the Black Watch is a likely part of Jade Falcon's future. As a "bodyguard clan" it looks like they'll be doing at least something similar anyway. Add in the BL being a part of their history through Khan Elizabeth Hazen it could be said to be part of their history and clan birthright. Just imagine Elemental sized commando busting through your window!

Personally I'm ok with how things turned out on Terra. Sure I'd like Jade Falcon to be the ilClan but second place with being the bodyguards is good too. Better than what most the other clans got out of the invasion. Though some others are doing well.

Ok, this could be badly worded and/or wrong and most likely is, but the idea that Alaric had maybe less than good intentions in mind for the Falcons, I wonder how much Alaric planned to make it an insult as much as an honour, the Falcons were hardline Crusaders (as a clan, though I don't know of any wardens in the Falcons, i'm guessing there was some, somewhere, once, maybe), now they lost and were made into a defensive bodyguard formation, as far as we know at the moment, a position that has put ok-ish for their time Mechs out of production, because of the Clans disdain for that position, full time bodyguard units ain't well known for their offensive campaigns and the honour gained from that, even Nicky K's body guard units in other Clans only did that when needed and were front line clusters when not iirc, how much is it payback for absorbing the OG Wolves and how much is it a case of keep your friends close but enemies closer as much as it is an honour? a case of you fought so well that im going to reward you with an important position... that is the opposite of most of what our culture has stood for.

The Clan's mindset is still kinda alien to us in our modern cultures where being an honour guard/bodyguard is an... well honour and means you're kinda damn good at your job, for the Clans being damn good at your job and being honoured means being at the frontlines as often as you can and popping your cooling boots before you slow down enough to be past it or become Khan/saKhan/Loremaster and even then the clans don't want one that's past the point of being able to do their jobs.
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Don't assume that being the IlKhan's bodyguard force doesn't mean they won't get used for offensive operations. Keshiks are all bodyguard units, and they get such duties all the time. The current job just means that Clan Jade Falcon is the Star League Keshik.
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"Refusal War Veteran" (aka Mechwarrior 2 was there it all began for me :)) returning to service (forums)

Good to see a lot of familiar faces

---

After reading HoTW, and ilClan Sourcebook, and my own personal thoughts on where things might go (especially with Tamar Rising)

The first thing I will officially say, thank Turkina, Malvina and what she turned our beloved Clan into, is dead  :thumbsup: (Her (individual) legacy reaved ? (hopefully)
(Not Hazen in General though) (And yes, I did feel that the whole Mongol thing was a betrayal of CJF Spirit)

The new leadership is looking very good for a strong comeback, although one more identity/personality alludes me, where is "Ichiba Pryde" ? She got her own mech and dossier card in Dark Age, and it said that she did not buy into the Mongol Doctorine

Hopefully, besides Terran Enclave, we will have a few planets to draw on, perhaps even a push back towards Sudeten, for Blood Legacies, Iron Wombs, Infastructure etc (or did crazy Mal pack all that up too ?) Possibly perhaps an "Elite" Garrison Cluster was left behind ?

When the last Eridani Light Horse Book comes out in December, I will be curious to see what happens in the ilClan era, will they be absorbed by us ? Invited to join new SLDF, (even though they are a Merc unit, technically they are Star League too, kinda?)

I can see us trading a few Warships, for Equipment to get us back on our Talons, plus abit of shiny new stuff from Alaric, post ilClan Trial



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