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Author Topic: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!  (Read 115031 times)

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1170 on: 28 August 2020, 21:21:32 »
The Marauder IIC 10 is hitting me in the right Falcon spot, where it's a combination of insane and terrifying at the same time.

Love it.
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vaderi

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1171 on: 28 August 2020, 23:05:42 »
Isn't Stephanie Chistu exactly that?

What makes her viable? isn't she stewing in failure as well from a clanner perspective?
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1172 on: 29 August 2020, 01:04:55 »
Well, this is a Clan, so the fact that she's 1) not dead and 2) has been a viewpoint character means that anything is still possible.  It's really easy to forget because Malvina's so ruthless and tends to punch down at the slightest threats, but when push comes to shove the person in charge of a Clan is the one who kicks the most ass whether by luck or by skill.
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Guardian11

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1173 on: 31 August 2020, 01:32:04 »
Those pointing to the TRO Jihad Intro praising the Smoke Jaguar ilKhans as proof that the Fidelis might join the Jade Falcons as a hybrid IlClan are forgetting that the Fidelis were founded by Trent and Paul Moon, who after the Smoke Jaguar annihilation see Lincoln Osis and Leo Showers as representative of everything wrong with Smoke Jaguar society, culture, and politics. The Fidelis were essentially founded in complete opposition to everything Showers and Osis represented to Moon and Trent. So unless the Fidelis change a great deal in a relatively short amount of time I would say that the Fidelis are the last people who are going to have any sort of positive opinion of Showers and Osis.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1174 on: 31 August 2020, 03:34:40 »
Those pointing to the TRO Jihad Intro praising the Smoke Jaguar ilKhans as proof that the Fidelis might join the Jade Falcons as a hybrid IlClan are forgetting that the Fidelis were founded by Trent and Paul Moon, who after the Smoke Jaguar annihilation see Lincoln Osis and Leo Showers as representative of everything wrong with Smoke Jaguar society, culture, and politics. The Fidelis were essentially founded in complete opposition to everything Showers and Osis represented to Moon and Trent. So unless the Fidelis change a great deal in a relatively short amount of time I would say that the Fidelis are the last people who are going to have any sort of positive opinion of Showers and Osis.

Makes sense, whereas a Falcon IlClan would probably see the Jaguars IlKhans as figures to be venerated for leading the clans back into the inner sphere.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1175 on: 31 August 2020, 15:35:53 »
These are all written in 3250, though.

I suspect the Showers, et al. references mean that in 3250, the regime seems them favourably, not that it’s immutable for nigh on 100 years. I have a hard time seeing an ilKhanate as “the end of history” for the setting.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1176 on: 01 September 2020, 21:46:52 »
I just got TRO Jihad... What the hell is up with that opening paragraph? :o

Quote
Those  wise, if  flawed,  leaders  of  the  Jaguars  and  the  righteous  Falcons  foresaw  the  true  threat...

Holy crap! This is either a Loremaster going far, far off the reservation or maybe, just maybe it isn't the Wolves that claim final victory after all! I agree with Guardian11 that this Stephan Roshak almost certainly doesn't have Fidelis leanings, unless the Smoke Jaguar Remembrance started getting used as more than a symbolic reminder of their past and heritage for the Fidelis.
« Last Edit: 01 September 2020, 21:52:55 by Crimson Dynamo »
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1177 on: 02 September 2020, 10:10:25 »
Stuff like that is why my personal prediction is a Wolf IlClan, but with a purified Jade Falcon acting as a sort of Keeper of Clan Honor, to borrow a Kuritan title.

Basically, the Wolves may become IlClan, but with the Falcons as the ilLoremasters, and by ghu I hope they get a better title than that.
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Crimson Dynamo

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1178 on: 02 September 2020, 13:25:23 »
Stuff like that is why my personal prediction is a Wolf IlClan, but with a purified Jade Falcon acting as a sort of Keeper of Clan Honor, to borrow a Kuritan title.

Basically, the Wolves may become IlClan, but with the Falcons as the ilLoremasters, and by ghu I hope they get a better title than that.

Like a kind of coalition government? That would make a lot of sense.

Still, if the Wolves are at all involved, Leo Showers, Lincoln Osis, Elias Chrichell, and Vandervahn Chistu have to be just below Stefan Amaris in the pantheon of reviled figures, and Brett Andrews and Malvina are probably in there somewhere as well. That someone as highly-placed as a Loremaster reporting to the ilKhan in the way he does blows my mind clear out of my skull. That couldn't be a red-herring of some kind, could it?
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"You guys are facing a freaking Shadow Division! These guys have strict policies against playing fair!"

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1179 on: 02 September 2020, 15:00:18 »
Oh, it certainly could be. I'm not taking *any* of these 3250 snippets as real canon until if/when we actually get to that era in regular sourcebooks.
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MarauderCH IIC

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1180 on: 02 September 2020, 19:54:32 »
Those pointing to the TRO Jihad Intro praising the Smoke Jaguar ilKhans as proof that the Fidelis might join the Jade Falcons as a hybrid IlClan are forgetting that the Fidelis were founded by Trent and Paul Moon, who after the Smoke Jaguar annihilation see Lincoln Osis and Leo Showers as representative of everything wrong with Smoke Jaguar society, culture, and politics. The Fidelis were essentially founded in complete opposition to everything Showers and Osis represented to Moon and Trent. So unless the Fidelis change a great deal in a relatively short amount of time I would say that the Fidelis are the last people who are going to have any sort of positive opinion of Showers and Osis.


The Fidelis are going to the a wild card when it comes to the ilClan. While Moon and Trent founded them, Trent was dead before they were founded. Moon was determined to lead the surviving Jaguars down a new path, that is certain. But he and the new Fidelis served under Showers and Osis so it's possible that there is some nastalgia for them that grew over the nearly two hundred years since thier death and the writing of the TRO intro.

Quote
The Great Betrayal was a pivotal moment for our people. We had been betrayed and left for dead by those who were our blood. They forgot us, but we refused to die. The Custos ensured our survival. He led us down the road to our home.

This quote on Sarna from Surrender your Dreams really goes along with your point though.

It should also be noted that the Fidelis surrendered New Earth to the Wolves without firing a shot. Interesting!

It also mentions on Sarna that the Fidelis 'displayed an extreme animosity towards Clan Jade Falcon and Clan Wolf.' This throws a big wrench into the joint ilClan idea.

Guardian11

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1181 on: 02 September 2020, 20:19:06 »
This quote on Sarna from Surrender your Dreams really goes along with your point though.

It should also be noted that the Fidelis surrendered New Earth to the Wolves without firing a shot. Interesting!

It also mentions on Sarna that the Fidelis 'displayed an extreme animosity towards Clan Jade Falcon and Clan Wolf.' This throws a big wrench into the joint ilClan idea.

I think part of the reason for the Fidelis' animosity is that the Falcons and Wolves as the 2 other foremost Crusader Clans and fellow Invader Clans should have been the Clans most likely to come to the Jaguars' aid during their annihilation, and yet they were the Clans at the forefront of blocking any aid for the Jaguars. The Fidelis might have lumped those Clans into the Great Betrayal.

In Rock of the Republic Paul Moon explains to Levin at least somewhat the Fidelis' position concerning the Falcons and Wolves competition for ilClan. Paul Moon basically says that the time for the Fidelis to reveal themselves as Jaguars is nigh, but that it is not their destiny to compete for ilClan, but that the Falcons and Wolves have earned the right to vie for ilClan and that the Fidelis will not oppose them in their battle for Terra.

Considering the role the Nova Cat mystics played in the formation of the Fidelis I wonder if they perhaps foresaw the Nova Cats' current predicament and helped form the Fidelis to help them at some future date. I also wonder if Inanna's marriage to Paul Moon foreshadows a future marriage of the Nova Cat remnants with the Fidelis/Jaguars.

Davion Loyalist

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1182 on: 03 September 2020, 10:10:52 »
It also mentions on Sarna that the Fidelis 'displayed an extreme animosity towards Clan Jade Falcon and Clan Wolf.' This throws a big wrench into the joint ilClan idea.

In the Grave Covenant novel ilKhan Osis attempts to rally the Home Clans to assist the Smoke Jaguars left in the Inner Sphere. Clans Jade Falcon and Wolf insist that any new invading Clans must bid for the right to join the invasion and will be opposed by them. That effectively kills Osis' initiative. If the Fidelis have the full transcript Khan Ward compares aiding the Jaguars under the circumstances to being a mercenary or prostitute which is unlikely to raise their esteem for the Wolves.

MarauderD

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1183 on: 03 September 2020, 11:47:15 »

The Fidelis are going to the a wild card when it comes to the ilClan. While Moon and Trent founded them, Trent was dead before they were founded. Moon was determined to lead the surviving Jaguars down a new path, that is certain. But he and the new Fidelis served under Showers and Osis so it's possible that there is some nastalgia for them that grew over the nearly two hundred years since thier death and the writing of the TRO intro.

This quote on Sarna from Surrender your Dreams really goes along with your point though.

It should also be noted that the Fidelis surrendered New Earth to the Wolves without firing a shot. Interesting!

It also mentions on Sarna that the Fidelis 'displayed an extreme animosity towards Clan Jade Falcon and Clan Wolf.' This throws a big wrench into the joint ilClan idea.

Agreed on many counts.  I'm left thinking thus:  I don't know what role the Fidelis might play in the battle for Terra, but I'm willing to bet a freshly painted mini that they 100% are a factor in the outcome.  I don't know how big a factor, but they will not sit this one out.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1184 on: 03 September 2020, 16:20:51 »
While they hate both clans considering that that Wolf Khan who did that back then was Alaric's gene father Vlad Ward I would expect Fidelis be more willing to join Jade Falcons that is lead by some one not connected to Marthe Pryde even if happens to be nutcase Malvina Hazen. That is if they do join or have some role to play. Or maybe they just end up making sure that neither becomes ilClan.   
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1185 on: 03 September 2020, 21:21:32 »
Agreed on many counts.  I'm left thinking thus:  I don't know what role the Fidelis might play in the battle for Terra, but I'm willing to bet a freshly painted mini that they 100% are a factor in the outcome.  I don't know how big a factor, but they will not sit this one out.

Dragoon’s to the left, Fidelis to the right, and two very ambitious Clans in the middle.  Earth is once again a battle ground.  Unlike the last two wars there might be more than two sides duelling for supremacy for the crown jewel of humanity.  What comes out is anyone’s guess not even the iClan title can help.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1186 on: 11 October 2020, 13:50:10 »
We might not have an Ilclan at the end of this.  The book title could instead be about the focus on trying, it is what Malvina is burning the universe for.  Frankly I think this is the more satisfactory outcome.  We do know that there will be an Ilkhan on Terra and we do know that his Loremaster will from a Jade Falcon blood house.  But we are still a century off from this, and we do not know if this is the first Ilkhan on Terra or a successor.

I would not be too surprised in the Ilkhan of the clans and First Lord of the Star League become one and the same and it becomes some sort of revolving chair.  Do not exclude the possibility that the future Ilkhan is a Successor Lord.

Also remember this, an Ilkhan who tries to impose clan society on Terra will have no end of trouble.  Its Terra!  You can take away everyones surname or national identity because Nicholas Kerensky or clan honour or so on and so forth.  Yes that is important elsewhere but Terra is our collective home.  People are French, Chinese, American, Brazilian etc etc, they are not clan subjects.  Even Amaris didn't mess with the ancient social structures, semi independent feudal settlements and indigenous tribes.

People in France or Germany has been French or German for a very long time. Now they are expected to conform and be single named cast subjects of clan <insert animal name here>.  As soon as Malvina or Alaric declares themselves rulers of Terra and start a clan cultural pogrom, EVERYONE will stand up to stop it.  I can see this happening.  Nicholas Kerensky was a weird man with weird ideas that can be made to work more or less, but it's an assimilatory system completely at loggerheads with the cultural Marinas Trench his legacy would be trying to wade through if a 'traditional' Ilkhanship is to be imposed on Terra.
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marauder648

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1187 on: 17 October 2020, 08:27:16 »
A question about the REVIVAL era Jade Falcons.

What would you folks consider 'iconic' Falcon Mechs apart from the Summoner, Loki and Uller.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1188 on: 17 October 2020, 08:47:22 »
I don't know if its iconic per say but the Fire Falcon is a good little mech and they were known to use many Nova/Black Hawks and Hunchback IICs

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1189 on: 17 October 2020, 08:50:54 »
I don't think the Falcons have any truly iconic mediums or assaults until the 3058 Omnis come into play, but of the 3050 machines, I'd say the Black Hawk is the most Falcon-feeling medium. In the assault category, on paper the Gladiator seems like the best fit by a wide margin, but in practice I think the Masakari gets seen more often?

Honestly, the early Falcons seem a lot like House Kurita, in that both seem to focus on lights and heavies, with the other weight classes being much less common.
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marauder648

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1190 on: 17 October 2020, 09:37:29 »
So a kind of 'heavy star' of say a Gargoyle, 2 x Nova and a Hellbringer and Summoner would be something?
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1191 on: 17 October 2020, 12:39:04 »
That sounds like a pretty fun Star to run.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1192 on: 17 October 2020, 12:55:07 »
I'd say the Black Hawk is the most Falcon-feeling medium.

Funny enough, Novas are called out by name as being uncommon in the Jade Falcon touman - or at least were on Ironhold, their capital and most important planet in the Homeworlds in the late 30s/early 40s - in Bloodname.  There were exactly two of them on-planet at all.  To the rest of your post, likewise in Bloodname the garrison Cluster Aidan is in has exactly zero Stormcrows in it.  Which is only one data point, admittedly.

I think Shadow Cats would be reasonably popular for Falcon Warriors when available, and there is of course the Black Lanner in 3052 that's a Falcon development.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1193 on: 17 October 2020, 13:05:57 »
Interesting, I'd missed those data points.

I definitely agree that the Shadow Cat seems right up their alley, what with its combination of good speed and maneuverability combined with solid firepower. How old is the Shadow Cat? Would it be widespread at the beginning of REVIVAL or just before?

I'm starting to wonder if the early 31st-century Falcons might have had low numbers of mediums altogether, instead throwing lots of Ullers at most problems, with heavy mechs (or the odd captured medium) to stiffen up those formations.

One of these days, I'll go through the Jade Falcon Phonebook, and run the averages of each chassis in there. Quick skims certainly seem to imply that Ullers form the bulk of several Clusters.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1194 on: 17 October 2020, 13:19:17 »
Shadow Cats debut in 3003, which means they damn well should have been pretty widely available by REVIVAL.  They just happen to RL post-date the phonebooks.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1195 on: 17 October 2020, 14:49:14 »
Shadow Cats debut in 3003, which means they damn well should have been pretty widely available by REVIVAL.  They just happen to RL post-date the phonebooks.

Yeah the Shadow Cat's introduction year would mean it would have been hella common by REVIVAL and would have been everywhere. The fluff for it does not support that it was a Nova Cat exclusive Mech. Its just one of those ones you'd have to assume was at REVIVAL's launch but anyone who encountered one didn't survive to tell the tale or report of this mech until Luthen and Tukayyid.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1196 on: 17 October 2020, 15:00:17 »
TRO 3058U says, "the Shadow Cat serves in only a few Clans." It names the Nova Cats (of course), Cloud Cobras, Fire Mandrills, Steel Vipers, and Smoke Jaguars, and speculates that the Diamond Sharks and Wolves started fielding them only after grabbing them as salvage when the Jaguars ceased to be a going concern.

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1197 on: 17 October 2020, 15:40:36 »
Yeah the problem is that doesn't make any damn sense for what it is and does.
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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1198 on: 17 October 2020, 18:16:04 »
Sometimes militaries have holes in them that make little sense to outsiders.

I would guess that the Sharks preferred the Grendel, and the Wolves the Fenris.

As for the Falcons, perhaps the Battle Cobra? It would certainly do the job of adding a little more oomph to a formation of Ullers. And they'd certainly have plenty after all their clashes with the Vipers.
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worktroll

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Re: Clan Jade Falcon Thread II: Falcon Harder. I SAID HARDER!
« Reply #1199 on: 17 October 2020, 18:27:02 »
What is wrong with the Kit Fox? Superior Jade Falcon skill makes up for any perceived flaws imagined by lesser genotypes.

(Less seriously, the IS match for the Kit Fox A is the Hollander. I ask you, which would you rather pilot?)
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