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Author Topic: Speculating on Clan Politics after the Battle of Terra (ilClan spoilers)  (Read 2542 times)

Agathos

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Quote
After pacifying the former Castilian and Caliphate worlds,
and then purging their new holdings of Clan Watch over the
following decade, Clan Goliath Scorpion began severe societal
restructuring.

Hanseatic Crusade, p. 8.

“Purging” sounds pretty definitive. If the Homeworld Clans still have eyes there, they’ve kept a low profile, low enough to remain undetected for decades.

Maelwys

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I find it odd that the Wolf’s Dragoon’s take a call from Clan Wolf seriously, in 3151, where Clan Wolf (at least it’s Clan) does not.

For the most part they didn't. IIRC the story goes something like
"Would you like to rejoin Wolf Clan?"
"Uh, no thanks. We're mercs, we haven't been clanners for like 125 years, our soldiers hail from everywhere. So yeah, no.'
"But this one commander wants to, and he's going to rebel against you!"
"Yeah, okay. Lets put down this rebellion."
"Haha! The side that wanted to join the Wolf Clan lost! Now you have to join the Wolf Clan to prevent people from know about your internal issues! For honor!"
"Oh, okay. Wolfy wolf wolf!"

Lanceman

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For the most part they didn't. IIRC the story goes something like
"Would you like to rejoin Wolf Clan?"
"Uh, no thanks. We're mercs, we haven't been clanners for like 125 years, our soldiers hail from everywhere. So yeah, no.'
"But this one commander wants to, and he's going to rebel against you!"
"Yeah, okay. Lets put down this rebellion."
"Haha! The side that wanted to join the Wolf Clan lost! Now you have to join the Wolf Clan to prevent people from know about your internal issues! For honor!"
"Oh, okay. Wolfy wolf wolf!"

Well that and the promise that they'd be the tip of the spear against Malvina, which was robbed from them of course.
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RifleMech

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Certainly, I didn't deny that the information is not available. But one hundred years have passed. Perspectives considering the information will have changed. Alaric may conveniently forget Natasha's information. Or perhaps he sees the Dragoons following Kerlin's orders as traitorous. These characters do not have the omnipresent view that we have. They are guided by multitudinous biases and perspectives that have constantly shifted and changed over the last century. For Alaric, it may simply be his Crusader viewpoint or perhaps a disgust that the Dragoons turned their backs on the Clans - even if it was on orders.

Precisely my point. It does not matter about the real, tangible links between these groups. It does not matter if the Exiles have been separated for ninety years or that the Dragoons were ordered to sever ties. It does not matter if a Dragoons trooper has absolutely zero connection to the Clans. It is the perspective and ideas that matter, the narratives that one tells oneself when establishing the universe around them. The Dragoons may have a tenuous connection to the Clans by 3151, one only kept by historical tradition rather than a tangible link. But they are inspired to stay connected by their perspectives, much like the Eridani Light Horse to Star League.

The Dragoons may have an absolutely factual defence concerning their membership in Clan Wolf or their absolution of being traitors. But all that matters is what Alaric feels about their status. These characters are not necessarily right or wrong, but they are informed by so much more than the bare facts. Our omnipresent, emotionless perspective is not theirs.


Where's it say that Alaric believes them to be traitors though? It seems to be the general narrative that the Dragoons were traitors. Where did that narrative it come? The Clans have been in contact with the Dragoons for 100 years. If they were traitors, why did Wolf In Exile come to their aid on Outreach? The whole narrative feels forced. The Dragoons being Mercenaries, no question. Traitors; no.


Idly, on the question of whether the Wolf's Dragoons would even want to rejoin the Wolf clan...how many OG Wolf Clan Dragoons are left alive, let alone currently serving?  It's been a century, the entirety of the Dragoons has to be IS-born people.  Even if there was a culture of clan followers that extended to their kids and grandkids, the Dragoons should see themselves as Spheroid rather than Clan.

Hell, they're working for Kurita again - that alone should point out how much weight the past doesn't have to their mindset.


At least up until the Jihad the Wolf's Dragoons were unique. They were IS but they were also Clan. They had Freebiths and Trueborns  but both were equal. After the Jihad, I'm unsure about but I would think that they would try to maintain their identity, customs, and traditions.


Rncavenger

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Alaric had made a big mistake with the Dragoons. And it's not about how he treated them. The fact is that he paid them. This means that he used mercenaries in the trial. I would be surprised if none of the clans uses this fact when the time comes.

Nibs

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Where's it say that Alaric believes them to be traitors though? It seems to be the general narrative that the Dragoons were traitors. Where did that narrative it come?

From 100 years of cultural development of which we are not privy to the details? It's hard to say precisely when the nitty-gritty is in the details. To write a realistic depiction, I would say that no one Clanner stood up and declared that the Dragoons were actually traitors. It came from minuscule changes in attitudes, writings, and culture. Perhaps, over time, the strongly Crusader Wolves developed a pure rejection of the pre-Revival Warden Wolves, including the actions of Khans like Kerlin Ward and Ulric Kerensky. They ignore the purely factual, legal elements of the history and replace it with their own emotional reactions, inspired by Vlad Ward's ability to re-make themselves.

I'm merely positing that a century of changing perspectives and biases can create ideas that seem illogical to those who have a dispassionate view derived from nearly fact-perfect sourcebooks. Vikings did not have horns on their helmets, but that misconception remains today - amongst thousands of historical falsehoods. As another example, take a man thought by some to be a traitor. Was Napoleon the Usurper or the Emperor? Ask a Frenchman of 1805, of 1815, of 1840, of 1870, or of 1940. The answers will vary by person, by year, and by the cultural changes that define a nation's identity. You could tell a 3151 Clanner about the facts of the Dragoons case and they will have their own passionate ideas about what truly matters. Perhaps they believe that if the Dragoons stayed true to the Crusader cause, the Clans would have won on Tukayyid. That matters more than the Dragoons' orders.

The Clans have been in contact with the Dragoons for 100 years. If they were traitors, why did Wolf In Exile come to their aid on Outreach? The whole narrative feels forced. The Dragoons being Mercenaries, no question. Traitors; no.

Most likely, the issue is complicated. There are a multitude of perspectives. Maybe it's a Crusader v. Warden thing. Maybe the Exiles were more strongly influenced by Natasha Kerensky's return. Maybe the Exiles were sympathetic because of the similarities between the two groups as exiled Clanners in the Inner Sphere. Clanners are not a monolithic body of people.

jimdigris

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Whether or not the Dragoons were traitors, Alaric sees them as such.  That is his opinion and we will not change that.  Let us accept that and move on.

nova_dew

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From 100 years of cultural development of which we are not privy to the details? It's hard to say precisely when the nitty-gritty is in the details. To write a realistic depiction, I would say that no one Clanner stood up and declared that the Dragoons were actually traitors. It came from minuscule changes in attitudes, writings, and culture. Perhaps, over time, the strongly Crusader Wolves developed a pure rejection of the pre-Revival Warden Wolves, including the actions of Khans like Kerlin Ward and Ulric Kerensky. They ignore the purely factual, legal elements of the history and replace it with their own emotional reactions, inspired by Vlad Ward's ability to re-make themselves.

I'm merely positing that a century of changing perspectives and biases can create ideas that seem illogical to those who have a dispassionate view derived from nearly fact-perfect sourcebooks. Vikings did not have horns on their helmets, but that misconception remains today - amongst thousands of historical falsehoods. As another example, take a man thought by some to be a traitor. Was Napoleon the Usurper or the Emperor? Ask a Frenchman of 1805, of 1815, of 1840, of 1870, or of 1940. The answers will vary by person, by year, and by the cultural changes that define a nation's identity. You could tell a 3151 Clanner about the facts of the Dragoons case and they will have their own passionate ideas about what truly matters. Perhaps they believe that if the Dragoons stayed true to the Crusader cause, the Clans would have won on Tukayyid. That matters more than the Dragoons' orders.

Most likely, the issue is complicated. There are a multitude of perspectives. Maybe it's a Crusader v. Warden thing. Maybe the Exiles were more strongly influenced by Natasha Kerensky's return. Maybe the Exiles were sympathetic because of the similarities between the two groups as exiled Clanners in the Inner Sphere. Clanners are not a monolithic body of people.

There's also the fact that Clan Wolf-in-Exile were the original Clan Wolf, legally, (since all clans saw them as the Abjured Clan Wolf, AKA "That Clan Wolf") and since Vlad flat out said that while Clan Jade Wolf changing its name to Clan Wolf didn't mean that they were That Clan Wolf but were a legally distinct Clan Wolf that is made up of former That Clan Wolf people, So Clan Wolf-in-Exile didn't see them as traitors since the Dragoons were still following legitimate orders from a That Clan Wolf Khan, which legally any Clan Wolf Khan was not a Khan of That Clan Wolf, the question is do the Dragoons see Clan Wolf as That Clan Wolf after absorbing the Exiles or do they see them as the legally distinct Clan Wolf that absorbed what was left of That Clan Wolf and not able to rescind an order of a That Clan Wolf Khan's orders? at least until Alaric is Ilkhan since Clan Wolf is legally a Clan or do the Dragoons not see Clan Wolf as a legal Clan?

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Jellico

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Snip

So the Lyran Commonwealth is the IlClan?

nova_dew

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So the Lyran Commonwealth is the IlClan?

They could be if Alaric successfully presses his claim and then absorbs them and since he's Ilkhan he could say his Patrilineal gene's also matter, claim and absorb the Suns too. IlKhan Alaric Wolf-Steiner-Davion of the Federated Wolf Commonwealth, The Sunny Woofer-wealth for short.
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CJC070

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Does the iClan sourcebook tell us what the Wolf-in-Exiles reaction to the Wolf Dragoon’s 30 pieces of silver or can we just speculate right now?

Orwell84

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Does the iClan sourcebook tell us what the Wolf-in-Exiles reaction to the Wolf Dragoon’s 30 pieces of silver or can we just speculate right now?

Just speculate. But you raise an interesting point, given that the Dragoons and Exiles worked together for decades. At least some of the latter might not feel too pleased at their former comrades being treat so badly.
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CJC070

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Just speculate. But you raise an interesting point, given that the Dragoons and Exiles worked together for decades. At least some of the latter might not feel too pleased at their former comrades being treat so badly.

Makes you think with some former Republic soldiers going merc and Wolf-in-Exile less than pleased with Alaric the Wolf Dragoon’s may be a back to its former size sooner than later.

nova_dew

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After yesterday's AMA I don't think the Bears are going to come to the ilClans rescue, i think they are going to have a crisis of faith, hopefully it means full absorption of Clan and IS peoples in the Dominion into something truly a mix of both cultures that make them a better faction, that both CGB and FRR fans can enjoy equally, but then again this is battletech and positive growth is in short supply.

As for the WiE and Dragoons, official they support Alaric's treatment of them, because wolfy-paw-ers combined! so do the Falcons.
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Lanceman

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After yesterday's AMA I don't think the Bears are going to come to the ilClans rescue, i think they are going to have a crisis of faith, hopefully it means full absorption of Clan and IS peoples in the Dominion into something truly a mix of both cultures that make them a better faction, that both CGB and FRR fans can enjoy equally, but then again this is battletech and positive growth is in short supply.

As for the WiE and Dragoons, official they support Alaric's treatment of them, because wolfy-paw-ers combined! so do the Falcons.

Could you expand on this a bit, I missed the AMA.
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Manchu

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One other topic which might be interesting to see the Council address at some point is whether or not to formally welcome Clan Goliath Scorpion back from the Periphery sub-board into the fold.
I analyze this possibility at length in the CSA thread here. Specifically:
Quote
From CSA’s POV, war with the Scorpion Empire is essentially inevitable, regardless of the latter’s relations with the ilClan. The Aggressors are obviously chomping at the bit for war. But considering the potential threat projection of the Scorpion Empire by 3140, even the staunchest Bastion supporters will realize that (a) peace with the Scorpion Empire is impossible considering the WoR ideology of IS taint and, given that, (b) there is no possibility of maintaining Homeworlds isolationism without at least permanently crippling the Scorpion Empire.

Thanks to developments in Bastion-Aggressor politics since 3090, it isn’t clear whether the HWCs would wage unrestrained warfare against the Scorpion Empire or elect to fight them according to Clan custom. What I mean here is, what if the ilClan claim triggers another major reconfiguration of HWC politics? Now, this is a huge, open-ended question, but all I mean in this specific context is, if some significant portion of CGS rejects the ilClan claim, there might be room for a partial reconciliation between the HWCs and CGS, as per Crichell repurposing the Trial of Annihilation against Clan Wolf in the wake of the Great Refusal into a Trial of Absorption. From CSA’s traditionally pragmatic POV, if an Annihilation can be thus repurposed then why not an Abjuration?

nova_dew

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Could you expand on this a bit, I missed the AMA.

link to the start of that section of the AMA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6H2Oh--mxs&t=1306s


I'll edit this with a link to the AMA, currently working on timestamping it (not sure if my sanity can take going back and doing the others), there's a lot of questions and a LOT of info dropped, it may take a while it's 2:10:00 minute video
« Last Edit: 24 August 2021, 06:40:43 by nova_dew »
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Dahmin_Toran

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Ilkhan Alaric Ward mentioned something about getting revenge on the Draconis Combine for the destruction of the Nova Cats. But weren't the Nova Cats Abjured from the Clans for turning their backs on them and joining the Second Star League. They even fought against the Clans in the Great Refusal. Wouldn't he feel they were bigger traitors than the Dragoons?

Nibs

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"Hey! Stop bullying the Nova Cats! That's our job!"

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Ilkhan Alaric Ward mentioned something about getting revenge on the Draconis Combine for the destruction of the Nova Cats. But weren't the Nova Cats Abjured from the Clans for turning their backs on them and joining the Second Star League. They even fought against the Clans in the Great Refusal. Wouldn't he feel they were bigger traitors than the Dragoons?

Alaric (and the plot) just needs a casus belli to justify war with the Houses in general and the Combine in particular.  And maybe a way to rally former Nova Cats and other Clanners to his side.  Whether he understands all the nuances of who did what to the Nova Cats — and more importantly whether he cares about all those nuances — is beside the point for him (and probably the plot).
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Mecha82

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Ilkhan Alaric Ward mentioned something about getting revenge on the Draconis Combine for the destruction of the Nova Cats. But weren't the Nova Cats Abjured from the Clans for turning their backs on them and joining the Second Star League. They even fought against the Clans in the Great Refusal. Wouldn't he feel they were bigger traitors than the Dragoons?

Alaric is politician like his gene mother was so it's all politics to him as well as being pragmatic. So in that sense what Clan Nova Cat did back in day doesn't matter to him as long as he can benefit from Clan Nova Cat's annihilation at hands of Combine. Besides maybe this way he can get remnants of Clan Nova Cat (Spirit Cats) to his side. 
Star Captain John Kerensky, 7th Battle Cluster (The Blood-Drinkers), Gamma Galaxy, Clan Wolf 
 
Chu-sa Jiro Takahashi, 11th Legion of Vega (Swiftness of Wind), Draconis Combine

 

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