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Author Topic: Clan Tanks: Worth it?  (Read 2272 times)

Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #30 on: 02 February 2021, 17:10:27 »
The Epona A is probably the clans best IDF fire support unit. 2LRM20 and 4t of ammo make it long enough for most things. Although with integral TAG and no minimum range it’s very unlikely it’s used that way.

Jellico

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #31 on: 02 February 2021, 17:21:08 »
The Mars has nowhere near enough ammo to be a missile fire-support tank. And Artemis means you're wasting 3 tons if you're using indirect fire.

EDIT Then again, neither does the Rhino or SturmFeur. What's with insistence to undersupply missile launchers?
I said "like a LRM carrier". Not a "LRM" fire support tank. The Mars lacks the armor and mobility to operate as an assault tank. You have to hold it in the back line and shield it. Otherwise all that firepower gets lost to some stupid crit early in the piece.
The rule of Mars operation is simple. Sacrifice every other tank first.

Colt Ward

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #32 on: 02 February 2021, 18:07:18 »
Which is part of the reason the Heimdall never made sense under BMR rules- it actually had a huge amount of armor unlike most Clan tanks BUT hit it with infernos or a few plinks and it could die.  Now?  I am driving for woods on a hill to lay down ATM & dual LB-10X fire.  While cannonshop often derides some tanks for being slightly mobile pillboxes, the Heimdall can do that with no concerns- and a feeling I am getting my value from it.  I took one to the second Martial Olympiad as a base of fire for capture the flag . . . I parked my opponent's Mars (ATM) on the far side of the map (26 hexes on a 2x2)- all he had was HE rounds on board.

I love the Morrigu (Laser) not quite the same armor as a Heimdall but still substantial . . . and I can hit 25 hexes all day long.  I used one in a tourney to wreck my opponents, supported by BA and a LBX toting CN10-B to exploit those holes.  The Shark Foxes selling those wide and far got me excited for my mercs if they lose their Shrecks going into the Jihad- cause it is literally is the Schrek IIC.

To Jellico's Mars point- it is why I hate the HLL on the updated Mars . . . you sacrifice 10 hexes of range for some imaginary damage chance to put 6 more points of damage on a target for that +1 when we know Clan crews are bad.  No one is going to get within 5 hexes of a operational Mars willingly.  The extra heat sinks are wasted.

Honestly, if I was a Horse armor trinary able to pick what I wanted at will . . . I would have one star composed of Heimdalls, Morrigu (both flavors), Axel IIC, Royal Von Luckner, Sekhemet or Kokou (TROGC), and Aesir- maybe a Schild for jokes.  Second star of Enyo, Enyo 2, Joust (LRM), Ares, 1 Ares (PC), Mithras (ERLL), and a Badger or two.  The final star would be hovertanks- SM1 series, Bellona, Cizin, Epona, Hephastus, and a Hadur or two . . . Tyrs if I could swing it.

Give him two stars of Elementals to make it a Supernova and it could do pretty well against a IS armor BN IMO.


Hmm, a Hell's Horses vehicle trinary earning the right to launch a Trial at a IS armor force . . .
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Talen5000

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #33 on: 02 February 2021, 19:05:03 »
Which is part of the reason the Heimdall never made sense under BMR rules- it actually had a huge amount of armor unlike most Clan tanks BUT hit it with infernos or a few plinks and it could die.

That's part of the "Let's make vehicles weak" paradigm - which is a necessity of the BT universe. It very likely could have been handled better - lighter engines, but no fusion, no heat sinks but batteries for energy weapons, size limits whereby each equipment slot can support only so many criticals, and less armour per ton - maybe even down to 4 armour per ton - simply to represent that the different structure and size of tanks imparts greater vulnerability.  Or, if they were willing to embrace a new mechanic, armour piercing rules with each weapon getting  different ability to penetrate armour.

But we have what we have and infernos are there to help push the idea vehicles are weak.

Quote
Honestly, if I was a Horse armor trinary able to pick what I wanted at will . . . I would have one star composed of Heimdalls, Morrigu (both flavors), Axel IIC, Royal Von Luckner, Sekhemet or Kokou (TROGC), and Aesir- maybe a Schild for jokes.  Second star of Enyo, Enyo 2, Joust (LRM), Ares, 1 Ares (PC), Mithras (ERLL), and a Badger or two.  The final star would be hovertanks- SM1 series, Bellona, Cizin, Epona, Hephastus, and a Hadur or two . . . Tyrs if I could swing it.

Nice choices.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #34 on: 02 February 2021, 19:36:15 »
So . . . the Epona is not a APC- yes it is an Omni and can carry them, but its a line hovertank.  It has several main gun type designs (ERPPC, HAG/20, UAC/10), a fire support (LRM20s), or shotguns (Prime w/MPLs, E PCs & APGR).

The Hephastus (not jump) is really the Horses' APC- infantry inside and since it is also a Omni, BA outside.

The Epona is a bigger, better, and more flexible omnitank than the Hephaestus, so it’s the better external BA carrier, whether it’s called an IFV or not.  For internal infantry or BA transport, I prefer the Tyr over the Hephaestus for its greater speed, ranged punch, close-in firepower, and five-ton infantry bay.  (The Tyr is also labeled as infantry support while the Hephaestus is labeled a scout tank.)  The Hephaestus version I like is the jumping version, which is a superior spotter/recon unit versus the Asshur, Odin, etc.

Which is part of the reason the Heimdall never made sense

I think big, expensive combat vehicles of any type or tech base don’t make a lot of sense because all vehicles are so easily pillboxed or critted or destroyed under any BT ruleset.  It’s a quick way to lose something you’ve sunk a lot of BV, C-bills, tonnage, or whatever into.

That said, if you gotta roll with assault tanks, outside of static defenses, I’d take the Heimdall over the Mars, Kokou, Huey, etc.  The Heimdall has a combination of 3/5 speed and weapons reach that the others lack.  Because they’re 2/3, even a slow Dire Wolf can overrun the Mars, Kokou, and Huey.  They’re really only good in fixed positions (hull down or ambush) where you expect them to get rapidly flanked or bypassed.  Within the 3/5 Clan tanks, I’d take the Heimdall over the Mars XL and Aithon for its armor (versus the Mars XL), firepower (versus the Aithon), and flexibility (versus both).  The Heimdall is no wonder tank, but it’s generally the best of that lot.  Personally, I’d rather have the greater speed, survivability, and hole-punching of the Harpagos quadvee than the Heimdall and put the spare 25 tons into some faster, critting screening unit.  But quadvees may be cheating, so I included the Heimdall in my list.
« Last Edit: 02 February 2021, 20:02:22 by Natasha Kerensky »
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #35 on: 02 February 2021, 20:26:40 »
The Epona A is probably the clans best IDF fire support unit. 2LRM20 and 4t of ammo make it long enough for most things. Although with integral TAG and no minimum range it’s very unlikely it’s used that way.

The Epona A is the spotter for the Hadur.  It’s a nice combination of hole-punching (Hadur’s Arrow IV Homing) and critting (Epona A’s 40 LRMs) all on fast, reasonably armored hovers.  AFAIK, it’s the only specific Mongol tactic that ever been written up, and it works well on the table as long as your opponent isn’t loaded for vehicle or hover hunting with massed LB-X, plasma cannons, artillery/artillery cannons, or pulse/TC.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Schwerpunkt Prinzip

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #36 on: 02 February 2021, 21:29:39 »
For hovercraft, the Cizin is incredible. Fast, powerful, accurate, though it is very reminiscent of the older Epona which is pretty good too.

I have a philosophical and aesthetic predilection for hovercraft but absolutely swear by the Cizin. Just ask Worktroll.
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Guardian11

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #37 on: 04 February 2021, 19:46:26 »
The lack of good MBTs among the Clans does make sense from a lore perspective. No Clan Mechwarrior wants a dirty freebirth vehicle crew stealing his kills. Much better to have your vehicles doing all those less glorious or honorable jobs, like artillery support, air-defense, recon, infantry transport/support, ambushes, base defense, and crowd-control. The better, more successful designs do tend to fall into one of those categories, especially the earlier created ones.

Colt Ward

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #38 on: 04 February 2021, 20:43:34 »
The lack of good MBTs among the Clans does make sense from a lore perspective. No Clan Mechwarrior wants a dirty freebirth vehicle crew stealing his kills. Much better to have your vehicles doing all those less glorious or honorable jobs, like artillery support, air-defense, recon, infantry transport/support, ambushes, base defense, and crowd-control. The better, more successful designs do tend to fall into one of those categories, especially the earlier created ones.

Clans have at MBT-roled vehicles . . . Enyo, Enyo II, Ares & Joust for tracked, Epona & Bellona for hovers.  3rd Gen Clan vehicles got a LOT better.
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Jellico

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #39 on: 04 February 2021, 20:52:40 »
No one should be driving tanks. They are more resource intensive from the quartermaster's PoV. ThT goes for Clan or Inner Sphere.
Unfortunately they are needed to make up the part of a national force so everyone has to make do.

Talen5000

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #40 on: 04 February 2021, 22:48:45 »
No one should be driving tanks. They are more resource intensive from the quartermaster's PoV. ThT goes for Clan or Inner Sphere.
Unfortunately they are needed to make up the part of a national force so everyone has to make do.

That's part of the economics issue with the BTU - which really only starts to make sense if you assume a lot of the military and KF hardware in the IS is heavily subsidised, or the populations are wrong or a mixture of the two, and so the costs shown in books are effectively 1,000 times or so greater than the list price. A HPG transmission that costs 1,000 CBills for the typical page of text is certainly more fitting for the description that such transmissions are expensive, almost ruinously so, but might be seen as a worthwhile expensive to bind the nation together.

You saw similar early on where an effort to explain away the small number of mechs was that only a very few people in the IS were actually able to use a neurohelmet link well enough to use Mechs effectively. Cadets were tested as part of their enrolment into academies and those few who were able to were passed to Mech piloting. Aleksandr Kerensky apparently had a very high score. It is why Mechwarrior families became so important - they concentrated the genetics so it wasn't so much random chance but the ability to effectively use a neurohelmnt is supposedly - or was, it's been a while since the factoid was referred to - rare, and even more so to the level needed for Battlemechs.

But vehicles were supposed to be cheap. Cheap but fragile. They offered what BattleMechs could not - numbers. They could carry Mech grade weaponry but they couldn't sustain mech grade damage. But they could be places where Mechs could not be because they were so cheap nations could afford huge numbers of them. Not that numbers tended to make much difference - you might be able to afford ten vehicles instead of a Mech, but you might need twenty to have a decent shot at taking it down.

The game rules really don't reflect these aspects. And, barring a total rewrite of the rules, they shouldn't....unless you want to start thinking each vehicle unit on the board represents a lance or company.

Infantry are the same. A lot more effective in game than they are in the universe. And, from a gameplay point of view, that is a
good thing. It provides a wide variety of unit looks and gameplay styles. Helps prevent the game becoming stale. But if vehicles and infantry were as effective in universe as they are in game, then Mechs would never exist.


« Last Edit: 05 February 2021, 11:08:20 by Talen5000 »
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Drewbacca

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #41 on: 05 February 2021, 07:39:42 »
I would actually look at it a bit differently. Tanks and infantry are effective in universe at what they do. We have enough examples in the fiction of tanks or groups of tanks taking down mechs. Or Infrantry a bushing an destroying mechs. So why BattleMechs? Simple, BattleMechs can go everywhere, they are not restricted by terrain and are environmentally sealed unlike tanks. They pack the same punch or better as a tank and are less susceptible to damage.

So why tanks? Because they are cheaper, require less training and if used right can return more bang for their buck. So all told, the SLDF had it right with their combined arms units. Mechs to take the objectives and get the job done. Tanks to bull up the numbers and help hold the objectives and infantry to go the few places mechs can't. Operation Klondike describes it well with how the Hell's Horses, my number two favorite clan, operated.

truetanker

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #42 on: 05 February 2021, 10:07:09 »
While I inject a contrast to your " atypical " clan tanks... please remember that I have, and a few others, have really scrounged thru every scrap of lore, recordsheet and TRO fluff with a fine tooth comb.

I present to a " generic " Supernova Binary for your pleasure.

Recon Nova:

Bandit-C B Point - IDF Support and BA transport
Bandit-C B Point
Bandit-C A Point - Direct Support and BA Transport
Bandit-C G Point - Scout and BA Transport
Bandit-C C Point - Bodyguard and BA Transport

( I Tend to run a G and C together to form a ' hidden punch ' with the B's and A providing cover fire for the Star.

All at 9/14 speeds.

If used as a unit, I can place randomly two full Stars of Battle Armor, anywhere and still support it from afar.

TT
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
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Drewbacca

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #43 on: 05 February 2021, 10:16:16 »
While I inject a contrast to your " atypical " clan tanks... please remember that I have, and a few others, have really scrounged thru every scrap of lore, recordsheet and TRO fluff with a fine tooth comb.

I present to a " generic " Supernova Binary for your pleasure.

Recon Nova:

Bandit-C B Point - IDF Support and BA transport
Bandit-C B Point
Bandit-C A Point - Direct Support and BA Transport
Bandit-C G Point - Scout and BA Transport
Bandit-C C Point - Bodyguard and BA Transport

( I Tend to run a G and C together to form a ' hidden punch ' with the B's and A providing cover fire for the Star.

All at 9/14 speeds.

If used as a unit, I can place randomly two full Stars of Battle Armor, anywhere and still support it from afar.

TT

That is actually very scary

truetanker

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #44 on: 05 February 2021, 10:29:21 »
That is actually very scary

Welcome to the Wolf's Dragoons, mate!

Park over there...

No really... it's also a generic garrison tank unit. Badger-C has both more of am Omni-feel and another type. These Bandits are just not built like the Omnitank of the Wolf's Dragoons, which means these are original Clan designs that they brought with them! Which further makes these scarier.

It's just 10 tanks, with 50 BA carried internally, but it's a Supernova Binary in disguise...

TT

Now you see why I'm called Truetanker.... evil vile mastermind and willing puppet of the Master.
« Last Edit: 05 February 2021, 10:31:05 by truetanker »
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
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Drewbacca

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #45 on: 05 February 2021, 10:33:20 »
Welcome to the Wolf's Dragoons, mate!

Park over there...

No really... it's also a generic garrison tank unit. Badger-C has both more of am Omni-feel and another type. These Bandits are just not built like the Omnitank of the Wolf's Dragoons, which means these are original Clan designs that they brought with them! Which further makes these scarier.

It's just 10 tanks, with 50 BA carried internally, but it's a Supernova Binary in disguise...

TT

Now you see why I'm called Truetanker.... evil vile mastermind and willing puppet of the Master.

I wonder if that would work with clan heavy jump infantry.

truetanker

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #46 on: 05 February 2021, 10:44:40 »
Answer

Yes...

Also Fast Recon and the Assault Infantry as well.

TT

( And fun factoid: you can squeeze in a Heavy Jump or Assault Infantry and a Heavy Infantry Point into the same space! ( Ebon Keshik https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Heavy_Foot_Infantry )
« Last Edit: 05 February 2021, 10:47:50 by truetanker »
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Drewbacca

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #47 on: 05 February 2021, 12:26:13 »
Answer

Yes...

Also Fast Recon and the Assault Infantry as well.

TT

( And fun factoid: you can squeeze in a Heavy Jump or Assault Infantry and a Heavy Infantry Point into the same space! ( Ebon Keshik https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Heavy_Foot_Infantry )

Holy hell I can load this thing with a clan fast recon unit?!?


Colt Ward

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #48 on: 05 February 2021, 13:30:39 »
It's just 10 tanks, with 50 BA carried internally, but it's a Supernova Binary in disguise...

But such a structure messes up the organization and would not be found in a TO&E . . . because a Nova is a double point- so you have 2 vehicles and 1 Elemental point that are trained and operate together.  So 10 vehicles and 25 Elementals would form a single Nova and would not operate with the other 5 points of Elementals also riding- that would have 3 points condensed together.  The veh/Elemental novas would have 5 Omnis OR troop carriers with the rest of the vehicles being attackers, FREX at least 1 point of Bandit and a Omni veh or two would be able to carry all five Elemental points.  I prefer to have a extra ride or two in a veh/Elemental Nova just to deal with losses.

Now that is organization . . . if the Cluster was going into battle together you could end up with a Elemental Star riding along but they would not be operating with the Nova in the same way the Nova's Elementals would due to chain of command among other things.  Technically if you had a full star of Bandits (very highly unlikely) then you can actually move four stars of Elementals- each would have 1 point internally and 1 point externally.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #49 on: 05 February 2021, 13:50:38 »
just make it a mixed Trinary... 1 star of tanks and 2 stars of BA.


and forget about doubling up with both internal and external BA carriage.. too many eggs in too few baskets.

truetanker

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #50 on: 05 February 2021, 15:12:33 »
Which is why I didn't suggest that.

On the Fast Recon,  it's more of a force projection.

But nothing going says you can't surprise a force by misdirection.

TT
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Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

beast_gts

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #51 on: 23 February 2021, 10:17:21 »
Just to slightly hijack this thread - Do Vehicle Points need to be the same design (like Aerospace Fighter ones)?

Sartris

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #52 on: 23 February 2021, 10:40:23 »
you can have mixed vehicle points. similar speed is, of course, recommended

truetanker

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #53 on: 23 February 2021, 12:29:03 »
To clarify more :

One can assign two Points running together in a mixed unit.

Suggestion only, I like to run both a mixed  Nova Point of Epona A and a Huey with Fast Recon Infantry. But I also like to support my Huey with BA. Solution : 1 BA and 1 Fast Recon with the two Points of mixed.

Each Huey is together,  but have a separate Epona assigned.  Run Epona as a single unit, TAG respectfully...

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Cannonshop

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #54 on: 23 February 2021, 15:57:56 »
Which is part of the reason the Heimdall never made sense under BMR rules- it actually had a huge amount of armor unlike most Clan tanks BUT hit it with infernos or a few plinks and it could die.  Now?  I am driving for woods on a hill to lay down ATM & dual LB-10X fire.  While cannonshop often derides some tanks for being slightly mobile pillboxes, the Heimdall can do that with no concerns- and a feeling I am getting my value from it.  I took one to the second Martial Olympiad as a base of fire for capture the flag . . . I parked my opponent's Mars (ATM) on the far side of the map (26 hexes on a 2x2)- all he had was HE rounds on board.

I love the Morrigu (Laser) not quite the same armor as a Heimdall but still substantial . . . and I can hit 25 hexes all day long.  I used one in a tourney to wreck my opponents, supported by BA and a LBX toting CN10-B to exploit those holes.  The Shark Foxes selling those wide and far got me excited for my mercs if they lose their Shrecks going into the Jihad- cause it is literally is the Schrek IIC.

To Jellico's Mars point- it is why I hate the HLL on the updated Mars . . . you sacrifice 10 hexes of range for some imaginary damage chance to put 6 more points of damage on a target for that +1 when we know Clan crews are bad.  No one is going to get within 5 hexes of a operational Mars willingly.  The extra heat sinks are wasted.

Honestly, if I was a Horse armor trinary able to pick what I wanted at will . . . I would have one star composed of Heimdalls, Morrigu (both flavors), Axel IIC, Royal Von Luckner, Sekhemet or Kokou (TROGC), and Aesir- maybe a Schild for jokes.  Second star of Enyo, Enyo 2, Joust (LRM), Ares, 1 Ares (PC), Mithras (ERLL), and a Badger or two.  The final star would be hovertanks- SM1 series, Bellona, Cizin, Epona, Hephastus, and a Hadur or two . . . Tyrs if I could swing it.

Give him two stars of Elementals to make it a Supernova and it could do pretty well against a IS armor BN IMO.


Hmm, a Hell's Horses vehicle trinary earning the right to launch a Trial at a IS armor force . . .

(lurch)You Rang.[/lurch]

It's not really derision-Total Warfare makes pillboxing the strongest tactic you can use with a tank, and in that role, with a heavy enough tank, it's a very powerful tactic-provided you pillbox in the right spot.

This is the fundamental difference vee-wise from BMR(R) play;  In BMR play, pillboxing is suicidal, because there exist weapons that will one-shot a tank that isn't moving, and they're light and cheap enough to install on a 20 ton bug 'mech without killing it for all other roles.  this was seen as upsetting to a great number of people who did not and do not see vehicles as what they are:

Disposable weapons for attrition fighting.

so it was changed and tanks like the MARS got a role, where before they were just a BV sink.

The role is simplicity itself: roll up to a good position (or start there, depending on your scenario), Park, and stay.

TW's changes to the hit locations mean the bulk of incoming fire will hit your tracks, which you aren't using now that you're in position, and the lack of a general location that will kill you/knock you out means that he has to erode your thicker armor (Heimdall's great for this) or avoid your weapons bubble.

contrast with what was the best use of vees in BMR(R) era, which was on the attack, as ablative forces to wear down your opponents.  In BMR(r) play, pillboxing was suicide, so you moved every turn because you can't afford to sit still or you'll die. (many of your units will STILL die).  Under BMR(r) play, 3/5 was too slow to be useful, because it's only good for firing from fixed positions and doing that (minus from a concealed position and then only on the first round) was suicide.

thus, in BMR(r) play, assault tanks really didn't have a role outside of a very narrow, specialized and short term role.  TW changed that,  making them basically field-deployable bunkers to hold a specific position on DEFENSE.

not on offense.  They're still no good at offense. (or at least, not as good as the investment would be in other systems).

My own picks, having played both paradigms, would be:

1. Donar VTOL-five times.  This plays offense, with some brick-like defensive unit filling the other five positions in the vehicle star, such as the Heimdall, Mars, etc.

That covers 99% of the fights you're going to get into on a typical battletech game day.  Donars to play offense and bricks to set up and hold.

This is radically different from what I use when playing Inner Sphere, because the Clans don't have anything in the in-between that's worth it-they have some Light vees that are only good for scouting, and mediums that arne't good at all, but they've got a good attack chopper and they've got good defense bricks.

just nothing until post-jihad that's good for playing both offense and defense.  For that, they have Battlemechs.
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truetanker

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #55 on: 23 February 2021, 18:32:46 »
I disagree,

Bandit C and Badger C are quick enough to be either a Pegasus or Galleon  in terms of speed and firepower, added bonuses the 5 tons Bay, for Infantry or BA.

TT
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Wrangler

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #56 on: 23 February 2021, 18:52:48 »
As long as the option vehicle rules are used for damage, removing one motor & one critical damage so ALL vehicles aren't nerfed once they get hit one too many times (not counting damage). Their all playable.

Carnage and Ares are good tanks Clan wise.  Axe IICs are down right scary considering they used to be Rommel/Patton Clones.
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truetanker

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #57 on: 23 February 2021, 21:39:55 »
Except their a niche clan unit, like the Pike C...

Only a IS clan can use them, Homies can't.

TT
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
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Cannonshop

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #58 on: 23 February 2021, 23:37:47 »
I disagree,

Bandit C and Badger C are quick enough to be either a Pegasus or Galleon  in terms of speed and firepower, added bonuses the 5 tons Bay, for Infantry or BA.

TT

Badger and Bandit are both Wolf's Dragoons designs and really ought not count as 'clan vehicles'.  they're decent enough IFV's and I do love to have Badgers available for supplementing my AFFC conventionals...

but in general, the only Clan vehicles worth the effort are one of two groups:

1. Really fast and twitchy designs
2. Bricks and self propelled bunker designs.

It gets especially clear if you actually bother with the canon p/g numbers.  Clan vehicle crew are worse than Inner sphere greenies outside of Hell's Horses.  In general application, you really just want them to roll up and park, because it's what they're good for.
The core rules for interacting with me:

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2) If you don't like something I've said, refer to rule 1.  If you do, god help you poor soul, you're screwed up.

truetanker

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Re: Clan Tanks: Worth it?
« Reply #59 on: 23 February 2021, 23:43:20 »
Badgers and Bandits ARE Wolf's Dragoons...

But the -C models are Clan.

The only thing is, their not OmniVehicals like the WDs... but they do have an internal 5-ton bay to be used...

TT
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That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
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