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Author Topic: Convince me otherwise...  (Read 538 times)

Cannonshop

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Convince me otherwise...
« on: 12 May 2022, 22:47:02 »
...Operation Revival achieved its stated objective by 3058.

The stated objective was to restore the Star League as an entity.  This was achieved by the Clan Invasion, and the only defect was that there was no solid 'next step'.
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GoGo Yubari

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Re: Convince me otherwise...
« Reply #1 on: 13 May 2022, 01:14:11 »
Yeah, that's somewhat true from the Warden point of view.

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worktroll

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Re: Convince me otherwise...
« Reply #2 on: 13 May 2022, 02:18:33 »
I will be pedantic here. The stated objective was for the Clans to restore the Star League as an entity. Wardens by taking charge of the misguided civilians by deposing the Spheroid Traitor Lords, Crusaders by killing anyone who looked funny at them.

By that, it's a fail. The Clanners' reaction to the "False" Star League are a matter of record.

But from a Spheroid point of view, it's ... ironic.
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Zeruel

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Re: Convince me otherwise...
« Reply #3 on: 13 May 2022, 02:43:31 »
yes, the ultimate goal of the Clans' invasion was to restore the Star League, but:
per Invading Clans, p.53, Operation Revival was specifically about the makeup of the invasion force (the four Invading Clans, each with it's own corridor) and that the first to reach Terra would be ilClan
Warriors of Kerensky, p.18, adds that the end goal of Revival was also that the Khan of the ilClan would become ilKhan in perpetuity, that the Invasion would take part in 15 waves, and the Operation was modified to include an advance force to clear out the Periphery
Jade Falcon Sourcebook, p.21, says Operation Revival's most important objective was Terra
...it actually doesn't mention anything about the Star League as one of the objectives of Operation Revival

so technically, no, the stated objective of Operation: Revival was not met by 3058, as the stated objective was to Invade Terra and form the ilClan

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BrianDavion

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Re: Convince me otherwise...
« Reply #4 on: 13 May 2022, 03:27:40 »
...Operation Revival achieved its stated objective by 3058.

The stated objective was to restore the Star League as an entity.  This was achieved by the Clan Invasion, and the only defect was that there was no solid 'next step'.

as others have noted. that wasn't the full goal, the goal was a restored star league under the clans, ruled and lead along clan ideals.


Zeruel

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Re: Convince me otherwise...
« Reply #5 on: 13 May 2022, 03:30:12 »
as others have noted. that wasn't the full goal, the goal was a restored star league under the clans, ruled and lead along clan ideals.



and again, the restoration of the Star League was not the stated objective of Operation: Revival, it was the conquest of Terra and the formation of the ilClan
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"Question: Under zellbrigen, how does one engage Shadow Divisions?
Answer: With orbital bombardment."

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Metallgewitter

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Re: Convince me otherwise...
« Reply #6 on: 13 May 2022, 15:40:04 »
The real querstion is if the Clans actually know what Kerensky meant when he penned his EO after the Eugen revolt? This order became the "Hidden Hope doctrin" but the Clans are so far away from the original Star League that they are a new entity and culture. Heck Nicolas banned most of Star League books in order to preserve it's gravitas. So in essence the Clans don't know what the Star League actually was and what the League did to unite every nation under it's banner (yes they have databases but is that actually studied in clan space?). To me it looks more like "We take Terra and then we go from there under the guide of whoever rules Terra"

CJC070

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Re: Convince me otherwise...
« Reply #7 on: 13 May 2022, 22:09:13 »
Considering there have been conversations about how the Founders of the Clans would look at what they have created and go WTF.  I would agree that the Clans have little to no knowledge about how the Star League functions.  Even with his (slightly) advanced education Alaric only really had his mother as a source and although he did not always follow her advice, she still influenced his way of thinking. 

Cannonshop

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Re: Convince me otherwise...
« Reply #8 on: 14 May 2022, 04:29:16 »
and again, the restoration of the Star League was not the stated objective of Operation: Revival, it was the conquest of Terra and the formation of the ilClan
I think you're mistaking means for outcome.  The (intended) outcome was the restoration of the Star League, the Means to get there was chosen as the conquest of Terra and the formation of the ilClan.
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go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."-Samuel Adams

Sartris

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Re: Convince me otherwise...
« Reply #9 on: 14 May 2022, 10:26:01 »
Clans: The Star League must be reformed!
The IS: *Reforms the Star League, blows up Smoke Jaguar*
Clans: ...Not like that

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Cannonshop

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Re: Convince me otherwise...
« Reply #10 on: 14 May 2022, 11:49:24 »
Clans: The Star League must be reformed!
The IS: *Reforms the Star League, blows up Smoke Jaguar*
Clans: ...Not like that

Nobody said getting your strategic objective is going to make you happy, or that you'll get it the way you WANTED to.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."-Samuel Adams

Zeruel

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Re: Convince me otherwise...
« Reply #11 on: 14 May 2022, 12:17:01 »
I think you're mistaking means for outcome.  The (intended) outcome was the restoration of the Star League, the Means to get there was chosen as the conquest of Terra and the formation of the ilClan.
your initial post says "stated objective"...Operation Revival is the name of the military operation that encompassed the original Invasion, the "stated objective" of that military operation was to invade Terra and establish the ilClan, as provided by the sources I listed

It is actually irrelevant what the ultimate goal of the Clans was, based on your original post you named Operation Revival specifically and it's objective

Real world example: Operation Overlord, stated objective: successfully invade Normandy beaches...ultimate Allied goal, liberate Europe from the Nazis
« Last Edit: 14 May 2022, 12:19:27 by Zeruel »
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"Question: Under zellbrigen, how does one engage Shadow Divisions?
Answer: With orbital bombardment."

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Cannonshop

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Re: Convince me otherwise...
« Reply #12 on: 14 May 2022, 13:42:36 »
your initial post says "stated objective"...Operation Revival is the name of the military operation that encompassed the original Invasion, the "stated objective" of that military operation was to invade Terra and establish the ilClan, as provided by the sources I listed

It is actually irrelevant what the ultimate goal of the Clans was, based on your original post you named Operation Revival specifically and it's objective

Real world example: Operation Overlord, stated objective: successfully invade Normandy beaches...ultimate Allied goal, liberate Europe from the Nazis

Overlord was the tactical objective to achieve the Strategic Objective.

In Revival's case, the argument between Warden and Crusader was between going to the Inner Sphere to restore the Star League, or remaining in isolation and only looking for external threats to the former star league.

Crusader's stated moral cause, the strategic reason for Revival was to restore the Star League.  On a Strategic Level, then, a tactical defeat that still restores the Star League is a Strategic Victory.

which they got.  The Strategic Victory-the overwhelming reason for the operation.  Thus, regardless of the tactical defeat (Bulldog and Serpent) the strategic objective was, in fact, achieved...for a while.  but it was still achieved.

Just...not the way they wanted.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."-Samuel Adams

Zeruel

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Re: Convince me otherwise...
« Reply #13 on: 14 May 2022, 13:53:11 »
Overlord was the tactical objective to achieve the Strategic Objective
if Operation Overlord failed, but ultimately the Allies still went on to liberate Europe, you don't then say Operation Overlord achieved its stated objective

Just the same, regardless of whether the Star League is remade or not, the success or failure of Operation Revival is in if it achieved its objective, which, again was the conquest of Terra and establishment of the ilClan...again, as per the sources I posted

Operation Revival failed in 3052 at the conclusion of the Battle of Tukayyid, which was the proxy fight for Terra - the Clans failed to conquer Terra and establish the ilClan

The Strategic Victory-the overwhelming reason for the operation.
the "reason" for the operation is not the same as "the stated objective" of the operation
« Last Edit: 14 May 2022, 14:00:36 by Zeruel »
"I'll give the Bears this... they do not care about "being clan" one bit, and they own it." - cold1

"Question: Under zellbrigen, how does one engage Shadow Divisions?
Answer: With orbital bombardment."

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Metallgewitter

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Re: Convince me otherwise...
« Reply #14 on: 15 May 2022, 07:13:01 »
I think "Oeration Revival" was more a means of placating the Clan's desire to return to the "Paradise" which is the IS. After all the Kerensky cluster isn't exactly the most welcoming place (and let's not start about the scarcity of resources). While the Clans veiled it with "Let's take back what is ours" imho it was more a "This place sucks let's go where it is nice". Just as an example the Smoke Jaguars developed Protomechs because their merchant caste predicted that they would run out of necessary ores to keep producing Mechs. And that was during the invasion

 

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