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Author Topic: Creating a Bloodname  (Read 1060 times)

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Creating a Bloodname
« on: 22 August 2021, 14:11:43 »
So we know that a Kell Bloodname was created. We also know that with the creation of the Wolf Dragoons a new Bloodname was offered to Jamie and Joshua. But my impression of how these events were described was that this was exceptional and rare, but not totally unique. That it had been done before. But looking at things later I can't find any indication of that. So my question is: Do we have any evidence of the Clans creating a new bloodname between the founding and the invasion?

rebs

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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #1 on: 22 August 2021, 14:22:42 »
None that I can recall.  Bloodnames were pretty sacrosanct at that time, and the Wolf Bloodname promise was unique.

It is also the precedent.  It was done by the Khan of a Clan, so after that it was taken as a measure by other Khans of other Clans.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #2 on: 22 August 2021, 22:02:43 »
i'm not sure that "wolf" would have been the bloodname they'd get.. after all that is also the general surname for any warrior.
their father was a Vickers, while their mother was a civilian. at a guess, the bloodname they'd get would have been one from her ancestry somewhere (since traditionally bloodname lineage comes from the maternal line) or one the Khan creates (possibly based on some pre-clan history)

Metallgewitter

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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #3 on: 23 August 2021, 02:37:51 »
The Ghost Bears actually created a new bloodname: Magnusson. The did this in order to give the Rasahagian prince Ragnar Magnusson more weight in their heirarchy. Before that he was only called Ragnar and since he didn't descended from any of the Clan bloodlines the Bears created this new blood line.

Though this might not really fit in your thread since this happened during the Jihad when the Bears absorbed the remains of the old FRR

Colt Ward

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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #4 on: 24 August 2021, 16:53:35 »
Yes, by the Dark Ages we have several new bloodnames.  Besides the cited Magnusson & Kell, we also have Brahe among the Warden Wolves and the RecGuide & ilClan (in the TRO section) discuss warriors who fight . . . Trials of Founding?  One I remember specifically is a League abathka who has really embraced the Crusader/Empire Wolf identity.  The implication is that some new names have crept in among all the Clans . . . with probably the Falcons having the fewest.  The Trial of Founding is a difficult challenge to overcome, and if you fail you cannot try again.

Interesting question would be does Alaric make the Trials of Founding even fights for those who were involved in the ilClan Trial rather than a Trial based on the voting outcome of the Clan Council?  FREX, the Clan Council voted against a Founding with a ratio of 7-5, does the Trial of Refusal get a 1-1 structure or the previously mentioned 7-5 odds against the 'new' Bloodname House?
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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #5 on: 24 August 2021, 17:54:12 »
i'm not sure that "wolf" would have been the bloodname they'd get.. after all that is also the general surname for any warrior.
their father was a Vickers, while their mother was a civilian. at a guess, the bloodname they'd get would have been one from her ancestry somewhere (since traditionally bloodname lineage comes from the maternal line) or one the Khan creates (possibly based on some pre-clan history)

It was Wolf, it was the promise to elevate Wolf to a blood name.

Also, Wolf isn't a general surname for just any warrior, its the name (almost a title) given for those who were adopted into the warrior caste from outside the warrior caste.

At least that is how I recall it.
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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #6 on: 24 August 2021, 20:07:22 »
They were promised a Bloodname upon success . . . name was not exactly spelled out.
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CJC070

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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #7 on: 24 August 2021, 22:38:28 »
The implication is that some new names have crept in among all the Clans . . . with probably the Falcons having the fewest.

Unless the Falcons get those steel bars surgically removed from their backside that will be a challenge.  Remember by the time the Clans had their Golden Century no freeborns in the Jade Falcon clan ever received a bloodname.  Even with the need to expand it would be hard to overcome this decision.

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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #8 on: 24 August 2021, 22:41:23 »
They do not receive . . . a worthy warrior has a vote before the Clan Council about founding a NEW Bloodhouse.  Considering the Falcon's problems with their scientist and their need to get undamaged genes from Society attacks . . . it would not be surprising that perhaps that freebirth they took on Blackjack would be the first Founding attempt.
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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #9 on: 24 August 2021, 23:04:24 »
They do not receive . . . a worthy warrior has a vote before the Clan Council about founding a NEW Bloodhouse.  Considering the Falcon's problems with their scientist and their need to get undamaged genes from Society attacks . . . it would not be surprising that perhaps that freebirth they took on Blackjack would be the first Founding attempt.
Let me rephrase to my knowledge no Freeborn warrior has had the opportunity to earn a bloodname.  Diane Pryde was the exception and after arguing she was Trueborn by genetics if not by birth.
 Since surviving scientists after the War of Reaving pitched a hissy fit with freeborn scientists assisting them in destroying the Society’s tampering, I would think the warriors are more traditional and hidebound.  In addition some warriors may blame the IS taint and try to distance themselves making a freeborn even less likely to earn a bloodname.

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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #10 on: 25 August 2021, 00:45:36 »
They were promised a Bloodname upon success . . . name was not exactly spelled out.

Sarna might be wrong but its quoting Blood Legacy as the source.

Quote
if successful, Clan Wolf would create the new Bloodname Wolf in honor of their hardships and achievements while conducting their mission.

It matches what I was thinking I recalled.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #11 on: 25 August 2021, 00:50:00 »
Sarna might be wrong but its quoting Blood Legacy as the source.

It matches what I was thinking I recalled.

sarna has been known to be wrong in its presentation. its editors have been known to put down information based on misunderstandings and misreadings before.

let me find my copy of the book and see what it says.

edit: can't find any refernce to the deal in the novel. the jamie wolf page on sarna cites Historical: Brush Wars, p. 15-16, "Jaime Wolf Profile" so if anyone has that book, lets see what it says.
« Last Edit: 25 August 2021, 01:10:18 by glitterboy2098 »

CVB

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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #12 on: 25 August 2021, 05:42:33 »
Brush Wars, p. 16:
Quote
With the promise of the creation of a Wolf Bloodname (an almost unheard-of honor), Khan Ward offered command of the Wolf Dragoons to Star Captain Jaime and his younger brother, Joshua.

Note "a Wolf Bloodname" not "the Bloodname Wolf".
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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #13 on: 25 August 2021, 08:51:01 »
Let me rephrase to my knowledge no Freeborn warrior has had the opportunity to earn a bloodname.  Diane Pryde was the exception and after arguing she was Trueborn by genetics if not by birth.
 Since surviving scientists after the War of Reaving pitched a hissy fit with freeborn scientists assisting them in destroying the Society’s tampering, I would think the warriors are more traditional and hidebound.  In addition some warriors may blame the IS taint and try to distance themselves making a freeborn even less likely to earn a bloodname.

And you are STILL trying to find a example of a freebirth gaining a existing Bloodname.

This is about a Trial of Founding where a freebirth becomes the founder of a NEW Bloodname- and INN articles and later look at the Crusader Wolves on Solaris VII and the annual Founding/Reaving/Propagation Trials implies that ALL the Clans have had freebirth warriors attempt to Found new Bloodnames.  The success of which varies, and because of the voting ratios is very much a uphill struggle.  Heck, one warrior's effort to expand the Kell Bloodname count had a tough push in the Warden Wolves.
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Mendrugo

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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #14 on: 25 August 2021, 11:29:12 »
Bloodhouse Miraborg got added by the Bears in 3147, while Bloodhouse Techus was rejected by the Horses that same year.

You can assume that from 3095 onwards, any given Home Clan Bloodhouse has 10 or so Bloodrights active among the Inner Sphere Clans, thanks to the Harvest Trials and Edict of Severance.
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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #15 on: 26 August 2021, 11:35:41 »
Brush Wars, p. 16:
Note "a Wolf Bloodname" not "the Bloodname Wolf".

Semantics
Do we have a single example of them creating a 26th Blood Heritage for a blood name?  No
Do we have several examples of them creating full new Blood Names?  Yes  (Kell, Brahe, Miraborg, Magnasun)
And he didn't offer them the chance to participate in a trial for an existing Vickers heritage the way Phelan or Diana? did.
It seems pretty obvious what the offer was.
Heck, the Dragoons end up creating Wolf as an Honor Name since they never went home for the reward.

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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #16 on: 26 August 2021, 11:37:47 »
Edict of Severance.
What is this?  I don't recall this term & I'm not finding anything via google.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
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Intermittent_Coherence

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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #17 on: 26 August 2021, 12:26:23 »
It was Wolf, it was the promise to elevate Wolf to a blood name.

Also, Wolf isn't a general surname for just any warrior, its the name (almost a title) given for those who were adopted into the warrior caste from outside the warrior caste.

At least that is how I recall it.
Neg.

A Clan warrior using his own Clan's name as surname is the common practice for freebirths. For trueborn, the unblooded name is often [Given Name] of the [bloodhouse]. Example, Vlad up until he claimed Conal's blood heritage was explicitly mentioned as Vlad of the Wards. By contrast Phelan before earning Cyrilla's blood heritage was referred to as Phelan Wolf. We see the same for Horse, who was formally Tyle(well he preferred to go by Horse) Jade Falcon. This is the same practice that the Wolf brothers went by as they joined the Warrior caste.

Given all this, I doubt they would have been given Wolf as bloodnames. More likely they'd have been given a place among the Vickers bloodrights, or as suggested previously, something referring to their freebirth mother.

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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #18 on: 26 August 2021, 12:28:09 »
Semantics
Do we have a single example of them creating a 26th Blood Heritage for a blood name?  No
Do we have several examples of them creating full new Blood Names?  Yes  (Kell, Brahe, Miraborg, Magnasun)
And he didn't offer them the chance to participate in a trial for an existing Vickers heritage the way Phelan or Diana? did.
It seems pretty obvious what the offer was.
Heck, the Dragoons end up creating Wolf as an Honor Name since they never went home for the reward.

I do not think CVB was implying they would get a 26th Blood Heritage, but that it would be 'a Wolf Bloodname' in the same manner as you mentioned with Kell & Brahe.  What it would be, who knows, but considering the meticulous records it could very well be the unnamed 'cofounder' of the Vicker's Bloodhouse or just pulling a name from history . . . perhaps honor one of the warriors who died during Nicky's retreat from the Pentagon worlds.

Which of course assumes the promise was ever intended to be honored.

The 'Wolf' Honorname is different from what the Clans intended original for the simple reason you are talking decades later, and the whole of the Dragoons- which by that point include orphans instead of just Clan raised individuals- had come to identify Jamie as 'the' Wolf.  It no longer signified the link to the Clan (as it did for Phelan Wolf) but rather their 20+ years of blood & sweat identity.
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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #19 on: 26 August 2021, 12:36:27 »
I do not think CVB was implying they would get a 26th Blood Heritage, but that it would be 'a Wolf Bloodname' in the same manner as you mentioned with Kell & Brahe.  What it would be, who knows, but considering the meticulous records it could very well be the unnamed 'cofounder' of the Vicker's Bloodhouse or just pulling a name from history . . . perhaps honor one of the warriors who died during Nicky's retreat from the Pentagon worlds.

Which of course assumes the promise was ever intended to be honored.

The 'Wolf' Honorname is different from what the Clans intended original for the simple reason you are talking decades later, and the whole of the Dragoons- which by that point include orphans instead of just Clan raised individuals- had come to identify Jamie as 'the' Wolf.  It no longer signified the link to the Clan (as it did for Phelan Wolf) but rather their 20+ years of blood & sweat identity.
If it had happened, and if it was up to me, I would have said they traced back along the matrilineal line of Jamie & Joshua back to the last point where they had a surname and make that their new Bloodname. Kind of like how they traced back Phelan to the Ward bloodline, do something similar to the point where Jamie's & Joshua's family line last had a surname to use. But it never worked out for them so no such luck.
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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #20 on: 26 August 2021, 12:43:47 »
What is this?  I don't recall this term & I'm not finding anything via google.

From “The Great Reavings” in Shrapnel #3.  The Council of Six declared that due to ties to the Homeworlds being lost, all “orphaned” Bloodhouses (those unable to return and compete for open Bloodrights) count found new Bloodhouses in the Inner Sphere. 
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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #21 on: 26 August 2021, 15:36:57 »
I do not think CVB was implying they would get a 26th Blood Heritage, but that it would be 'a Wolf Bloodname' in the same manner as you mentioned with Kell & Brahe. 

Exactly. Thanks for expressing it better than I did.
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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #22 on: 01 October 2021, 11:35:25 »
If it had happened, and if it was up to me, I would have said they traced back along the matrilineal line of Jamie & Joshua back to the last point where they had a surname and make that their new Bloodname. Kind of like how they traced back Phelan to the Ward bloodline, do something similar to the point where Jamie's & Joshua's family line last had a surname to use. But it never worked out for them so no such luck.

Belated response.

Interesting theory.

Green-Jones-Smith-Doe,  etc etc.

It would be a 44th bloodname (bloodline) for Clan Wolf.   (Similar to how Kell actually became #44)

Some name pulled from history that lead to their Father or Mother.

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Re: Creating a Bloodname
« Reply #23 on: 07 October 2021, 22:30:44 »
Be interesting with post ilClan Trial, and Tara Jade Falcon, and Elizabeth Hazen's connection to the Blackwatch,etc

Will she get "Campbel" made into a Bloodname ? Perhaps to show inter connectivity in her new role, her past, CJF's past ? Will a few of her Highlanders flock to her ?
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