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Author Topic: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.  (Read 11655 times)

MDFification

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #150 on: 11 May 2022, 19:21:26 »
Not sure I buy that- for one he did not demand the other Clans bow the knee, he just had them on Terra to watch his ascension.

He does have a habit of making decisions out of spite, and wanting people to know he's spiting them though. He didn't bring back Smoke Jaguar because having a free army of badasses is great for any aspiring conqueror, he did it because he wants to tell the powers behind the Second Star League they're not the real Star League on account of being inferior Spheroids. He didn't piss off the Dragoons because he had no more use for them; he did it because they're mercenary scum, and now that he's given himself titles he believes exempt one from consequences, he's going to treat them as such.

He's going to learn pretty quickly that even people universally recognized as the rightful First Lord, people with an entire SLDF at their disposal instead of the sadly depleted forces he has, couldn't do whatever the heck they wanted. He'll either adjust his behavior accordingly or fail. 

Metallgewitter

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #151 on: 12 May 2022, 06:49:53 »
Man this sounds as if his mother's genes are coming to the forefront. Katherine was always adapt at manipulating but then made snap decisions due to her delusions. But as we enter the time of the Ilclan it is assured one Clan will rule Terra for the time being but perhaps someone else then the Wolves.

Dr. Banzai

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #152 on: 12 May 2022, 07:20:17 »
Not sure I buy that- for one he did not demand the other Clans bow the knee, he just had them on Terra to watch his ascension. 
Yes, but he seemed to believe that because they came, they will stay loyal.

The whole idea of the clans reinstalling the Star League is laughable, really. It would be akin to Putin's Russia setting up a new United Nations.

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #153 on: 12 May 2022, 09:12:47 »
Yes, but he seemed to believe that because they came, they will stay loyal.

The whole idea of the clans reinstalling the Star League is laughable, really. It would be akin to Putin's Russia setting up a new United Nations.

How?  The last bit in HotW just acknowledges they arrived to see the Wolves had done it.  He did not start making demands on their toumans or insisting on deciding how they interact with the Inner Sphere.

The Horses got slapped down b/c they thought they deserved a shot at being ilClan.  Their reasoning was laughable, and though I do not like their portrayal nor does the Khan's actions match what he did in MWDA books or even his minor Bonfire appearances/references, the Wolf reaction was spot on.  It is like someone who runs half a marathon and then stopping still expecting to participate in the photo finish at the end of the race.
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Dr. Banzai

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #154 on: 12 May 2022, 10:11:53 »
It's the fact that the original Star League was adopted for the benefit of all its members. Yes Terran Hegemony was at the head and had two votes for every other house's one, and punished the Periphery for favoring their independence.

But the overall ideal behind the SL was to improve mankind. The clans are not able to improve mankind, because they see 85% of mankind as being inferior to their Warrior caste. ilClan and ilKhan does not equal Star League and First Lord at all, it's the complete opposite. It's the equivalent of the Goths sacking Rome and declaring they are the new Roman Empire, when all they did was destroy the Empire.

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #155 on: 12 May 2022, 10:26:28 »
It's the fact that the original Star League was adopted for the benefit of all its members. Yes Terran Hegemony was at the head and had two votes for every other house's one, and punished the Periphery for favoring their independence.

But the overall ideal behind the SL was to improve mankind. The clans are not able to improve mankind, because they see 85% of mankind as being inferior to their Warrior caste. ilClan and ilKhan does not equal Star League and First Lord at all, it's the complete opposite. It's the equivalent of the Goths sacking Rome and declaring they are the new Roman Empire, when all they did was destroy the Empire.

Maybe in the eyes of non-Clan members. However, the Clans themselves believe they've evolved past the barbarian ways that doomed the first Star League and still plagued the Inner Sphere when they came back. So it's up to them to show them the light.

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Colt Ward

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #156 on: 12 May 2022, 10:59:35 »
It's the fact that the original Star League was adopted for the benefit of all its members. Yes Terran Hegemony was at the head and had two votes for every other house's one, and punished the Periphery for favoring their independence.

But the overall ideal behind the SL was to improve mankind. The clans are not able to improve mankind, because they see 85% of mankind as being inferior to their Warrior caste. ilClan and ilKhan does not equal Star League and First Lord at all, it's the complete opposite. It's the equivalent of the Goths sacking Rome and declaring they are the new Roman Empire, when all they did was destroy the Empire.

LOLs, absolute LOLS . . . governments are never for the benefit of all 'members' and neither was the Star League, they are a unfortunately necessary very evil.  The founding Cameron and Alaric are going to be closer in attitudes and actions than any rose-tinted view of the Star League is going to like- they both want to rule all mankind . . . and that was the sole purpose of the Star League.

Alaric's ilClanship and Cameron's creation of the Star League will be the same thing because they have the same motiviations.  You can rant all you like because of your hatred for the Clans, but BOTH are power grabs . . . and a closer historical analogy would be the Russians adopting the Czar and proclaiming they were the descendant government of the Roman Empire.  The Successor States are more like the Vandals, Goths, and other barbarian tribes taking parts of the Empire as their own- though to be fair TPTB borrowed the end of the Alexandrian Empire for the end of the Star League and threw in a Xenophon solution for the SLDF.
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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #157 on: 12 May 2022, 12:40:18 »
It's the fact that the original Star League was adopted for the benefit of all its members. Yes Terran Hegemony was at the head and had two votes for every other house's one, and punished the Periphery for favoring their independence.

But the overall ideal behind the SL was to improve mankind. The clans are not able to improve mankind, because they see 85% of mankind as being inferior to their Warrior caste. ilClan and ilKhan does not equal Star League and First Lord at all, it's the complete opposite. It's the equivalent of the Goths sacking Rome and declaring they are the new Roman Empire, when all they did was destroy the Empire.

Considering parts of the Periphery still haven't recovered from the Reunification Wars and led to a guy nicknamed "Babykiller" live a long, respected life, I think we can put to bed the idea that "betterment of mankind" was the purpose. I am sure Ian Cameon told himself that, but he's still one of the most horrific monsters of the setting.

And it should be pointed out the Clans DO believe that they are improving mankind. Just like Ian Cameron thought he was improving mankind by launching the Reunification Wars. Really, only Aramis was honest with his "**** you I want to be Emperor" reasoning of change.

Metallgewitter

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #158 on: 12 May 2022, 13:25:06 »
Alaric's ilClanship and Cameron's creation of the Star League will be the same thing because they have the same motiviations.  You can rant all you like because of your hatred for the Clans, but BOTH are power grabs . . . and a closer historical analogy would be the Russians adopting the Czar and proclaiming they were the descendant government of the Roman Empire.  The Successor States are more like the Vandals, Goths, and other barbarian tribes taking parts of the Empire as their own- though to be fair TPTB borrowed the end of the Alexandrian Empire for the end of the Star League and threw in a Xenophon solution for the SLDF.

I don't know. I get the impression that the Clans think they will lead the IS simply by conquering Terra. As if it is that easy. First of all unlike the Terran Hegemony who had the muscle to back up their dominionn the Wolves don't. If other Clans tell Alric to stick his "I am Ilkhan" up his ass what can he do? Declare a trial? The IS Clans are so far away from Clan culture they will most likely ignore him. Then next is that the Cameron clan had made their influence known by settling several wars. For example they settled a brewing civil war in the Lyran Commonwealth and also settled the Andurien conflict. What has Alaric done? Oh yes I remember: Wage war and comitting war crimes. Great. Makes for a great leader and negotiator. And last point the Hegemony had a vast advantage in terms of technology botth in civilan and military sectors. Uhm I don't see that here even with the Wolves holding the center of humanity. Clan tech has propagted through the entire IS and Clan culture should it be enforced to it's fullest isn't exactly known to advance civilian science. He has a very thin line to tread if he wants to recreate a new Star League. Heck cowering behind the walls and simply watch the rest of the Is batter themselves to oblivion might be the best idea. Oh wait the Republic tried that too

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #159 on: 12 May 2022, 14:20:41 »
You can argue how effective Alaric might be compared to Ian Cameron, but their intents and positions are the same.  I would agree the Crusaders seemed to think taking Terra would be auto-win but none of the current leaders seem to labor under that delusion- to the point Alaric was not commanding the Khans appear and/or bow the knee.  To top it off, Alaric does not want to limit conflict- that has never been the goal.  He wishes to harness it to feed Clan warrior's desire for glory, so peacefully integrating those who betrayed the Great Kerensky and the golden Star League has never been part of the grand plan.

The TH settling those conflicts was soft-power . . . and backing that up is hard-power.  The Hegemony was just as involved in the Age of War as their surrounding Great Houses- to the point creating the League was a way to avoid facing multi-front wars.  Alaric has also shown a ability to manipulate diplomacy to suit his needs.  He withdrew from Tharkad which caused that world to be spared further Falcon attention.  He was the author of the plan to end the conflict with the League, a truce that served both sides for quite a while.

Finally, this is a universe based on war so saying he waged war is a non-starter . . . and while it maybe a unpopular take, you have no right to surrender so what happened on Helm was not a war crime.
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BrianDavion

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #160 on: 12 May 2022, 15:43:12 »
This is Alaric's, as far as we know, first message outside Terra:

"All the worlds of the Empire are mine, All the worlds of the Inner Sphere and beyond. We are the ilClan and the Star League, and all will be ours. Today, or tomorrow, or forever."

yeaaaah this doesn't sound like a man whose going to be using ANY diplomacy. Alaric is clearly intending to try to take on the IS entire, and thats not gonna work out for him

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #161 on: 12 May 2022, 16:16:57 »
Yeah, but that is not any different than Ian Cameron.
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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #162 on: 12 May 2022, 18:02:16 »
Yeah, but that is not any different than Ian Cameron.

I assume you're refering to the Pollox Proclaimation?
First of all Colt, the Star  League was founded by diplomacy and the periphary had been initally asked to join (and the SL was rebuffed)

the proclaimation was

Quote
Furthermore, in consideration of the common goals we share, we must set aside our differences and pool our resources for the common good, once and for all.

The Star League stands for a unified Humanity. As First Lord of the Star League, it is my solemn responsibility to protect the welfare of that Humanity wherever it may be found, be it on Sian or Santiago, New Vandenberg or New Avalon, Andurien or Apollo, Castor or Canopus. Though me, the Star League assumes the awesome task of safeguarding the welfare of Humanity. It is a responsibility from which the League will never shrink, a responsibility it shall never lay down. The dark days of barbarism are over-we will not let them return again.

The only way to ensure equal protection for all, the only way to safeguard the liberties of each individual, is for every Human being to accept the benefits we offer, freely and openly. So long as a solitary individual of the most distant planet in the Periphery remains uneducated, impoverished, or disadvantaged, all are equally stricken.

We intend to see that the majority is not denied the benefits of culture and progress at the hands of a minority of radical isolationists. We intend to extend our benevolent protection into every corner of Human-occupied space, whatever the cost, until every man, woman, and child prospers and flourishes. Let no one stand in the way of Human progress. The time for reunification has come.


this is a HUUUUUUUGE differance in tone from.

"IT'S MINE! ALL MINE! I'LL COME AND GET IT ALL EVENTUALLY!" which is more or less what Alaric said


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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #163 on: 12 May 2022, 19:12:17 »
Yeah, but that is not any different than Ian Cameron.

The difference is Alaric will use the 10 pound sledghammer, then the 5 pound, and if THAT doesn’t work then (maybe) diplomacy.  Yes the Cameron’s made mistakes but more often than not it was using the the steel fist not the velvet glove.  Clans think velvet gloves are for old women and wimps. 

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #164 on: 12 May 2022, 19:42:58 »
Something tells me the velvet gloves are just for old Clan women to smack down longer.

*watches as Joanna and Natasha come by, put on velvet gloves and start smacking CJC for all they're worth."

MDFification

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #165 on: 12 May 2022, 21:42:11 »
this is a HUUUUUUUGE differance in tone from.

"IT'S MINE! ALL MINE! I'LL COME AND GET IT ALL EVENTUALLY!" which is more or less what Alaric said

Yeah, the difference is that Alaric Ward says what Ian Cameron privately thought  ^-^

But in seriousness, "We intend to see that the majority is not denied the benefits of culture and progress at the hands of a minority of radical isolationists. We intend to extend our benevolent protection into every corner of Human-occupied space, whatever the cost, until every man, woman, and child prospers and flourishes. Let no one stand in the way of Human progress. The time for reunification has come." is pretty much just a fancy way of dressing up the same thing Alaric said; you are joining Star League and submitting to my authority, and your opinion on the matter is completely irrelevant because you don't get a choice.

The principal difference? Ian Cameron had five future successor states and a Terran Hegemony. Alaric has three toumans, two of which are severely understrength and the remainder of which is scuffed as heck. Ian Cameron was fighting Periphery States. Alaric is fighting everyone and has let them know he doesn't think they have a right to exist from the get go. We'll see how well that piece of strategic genius plays out.

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #166 on: 12 May 2022, 22:14:48 »
Furthermore, in consideration of the common goals we share, we must set aside our differences and pool our resources for the common good, once and for all.

The Star League stands for a unified Humanity. As First Lord of the Star League, it is my solemn responsibility to protect the welfare of that Humanity wherever it may be found, be it on Sian or Santiago, New Vandenberg or New Avalon, Andurien or Apollo, Castor or Canopus. Though me, the Star League assumes the awesome task of safeguarding the welfare of Humanity. It is a responsibility from which the League will never shrink, a responsibility it shall never lay down. The dark days of barbarism are over-we will not let them return again.

The only way to ensure equal protection for all, the only way to safeguard the liberties of each individual, is for every Human being to accept the benefits we offer, freely and openly. So long as a solitary individual of the most distant planet in the Periphery remains uneducated, impoverished, or disadvantaged, all are equally stricken.

We intend to see that the majority is not denied the benefits of culture and progress at the hands of a minority of radical isolationists. We intend to extend our benevolent protection into every corner of Human-occupied space, whatever the cost, until every man, woman, and child prospers and flourishes. Let no one stand in the way of Human progress. The time for reunification has come.

Pretty words mean nothing. The Periphery took this a threat and declined. To prove them wrong, the Star League started one of the most vicious wars known to mankind. Whatever good he did, the Reunification Wars made Ian Cameron one of the settings greatest villains.

Oh. And were the Periphery ever accepted as equals in the Star League? Or were they basically subjugated to the Inner Sphere like they feared joining the Star League would result in? Remember, the actual ruler of the RWR wanted to join Star League and was basically under siege for over a decade. But at the same time, they were treated the same as the others by the Council.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying say since Cameron is bad, then Alaric isn't as bad. I see no reason not a like a bad guy in fictional story, especially in something like a wargame or CCG where actual peace is something that can never be had because then the game would in. I'm just saying Ian Cameron is an absolute monster and should be remembered such. This has no effect on whether or not Alaric is monster or if his Star League is good or bad thing for the rest of humanity.

CJC070

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #167 on: 12 May 2022, 22:17:29 »
Something tells me the velvet gloves are just for old Clan women to smack down longer.

*watches as Joanna and Natasha come by, put on velvet gloves and start smacking CJC for all they're worth."

Are you calling Warhammer, Dire Wolfs, and Mad Dogs velvet gloves?  What is the steel fist? WMDs?

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #168 on: 25 May 2022, 12:44:36 »
I think the Bloodhouse of Kerensky may be a problem for Alaric Ward. They will never forget nor forgive that none of them lead the conquest of Terra and the Wolves to be the ilClan. Alaric played them and they know this.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #169 on: 25 May 2022, 12:45:46 »
I think the Bloodhouse of Kerensky may be a problem for Alaric Ward. They will never forget nor forgive that none of them lead the conquest of Terra and the Wolves to be the ilClan. Alaric played them and they know this.

Anastasia Kerensky, likely Bloodhouse leader, got to take down Malvina- thought she killed her.  It practically ended the Falcon's efforts in the ilClan trial.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #170 on: 26 May 2022, 06:11:07 »
Yeah, but that is not any different than Ian Cameron.

Well it was technically McKenna's desire to unite all former planets of the Alliance with the Hegemony again. But at that time the then Hegemony had the absolute advantage over the rest of the Is (especially the only Warship fleet) And what happened? The Syrma ambush which put a screeching halt to any more advances. And Cameron knew he couldn't take on all Houses so he slowly broke them into pieces to make them more friendly to his overtures. Telling everyone "I am gonna get you" isn't exactly the smartest move. Even if he has the biggest Warship fleet (if he can convince the Ravens to join) that alone doesn't help you win campaigns. He simply doesn't have enough boots on the ground

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #171 on: 26 May 2022, 08:18:21 »
Anastasia Kerensky, likely Bloodhouse leader, got to take down Malvina- thought she killed her.  It practically ended the Falcon's efforts in the ilClan trial.
Honestly, I almost guarantee Anastasia is NOT the Kerensky Bloodhouse leader. First off, she came from the Exiles and wasn't particularly popular there, hence her escapades that brought her into the Republic space in the first place. Second, Bloodhouse leader is a very political position, and Anastasia is not fond of politics. Third, according to The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky on pg 97, Each Wolf Clan had its own set of Blood Heritages and Bloodhouses, meaning double the normal count.
One last thing to remember is there are two Kerensky bloodnames, thus two separate Bloodhouses.
« Last Edit: 26 May 2022, 08:38:08 by wantec »
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Colt Ward

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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #172 on: 26 May 2022, 09:22:37 »
Honestly, I almost guarantee Anastasia is NOT the Kerensky Bloodhouse leader. First off, she came from the Exiles and wasn't particularly popular there, hence her escapades that brought her into the Republic space in the first place. Second, Bloodhouse leader is a very political position, and Anastasia is not fond of politics. Third, according to The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky on pg 97, Each Wolf Clan had its own set of Blood Heritages and Bloodhouses, meaning double the normal count.
One last thing to remember is there are two Kerensky bloodnames, thus two separate Bloodhouses.

Except . . .

#1, where we have seen it the highest ranking/prestige bloodname holder is the House Leader . . . the only exception I can think of is whatisis Pryde that was CO of the Falcon Guard while Marthe Pryde was Khan- BUT he had the Aiden Bloodheritage which the Falcons were still swooning over.  FREX, after former Khan Cyrilla died it was Conal Ward IIRC until Phelan became Khan and Conal was ousted the same day.

#2, Anastasia could have the position and delegate much of the duties/responsibilities . . . with that said, during her time as saKhan the touman did not suffer under her management.  So she can either do it or can find people to do a lot of the admin stuff for her.

#3, I would say that phrasing is actually suspect as indicated by FMWC later.  The Warden Wolves left with a full copy of the genetic repository.  However, if they did not have a Bloodname holder go into exile with them they did not fill or even use those Bloodnames maternally.  FMWC indicates they had a handful of dormant Wolf bloodnames because of this situation.  We have also never afaik been given a indication the Wardens expanded beyond the Bloodname count they left the OZ with- nor that the Crusaders appropriated the heritages of those who went into Exile.  The ONLY case was Phelan's Ward heritage which is what everyone assumed Vlad was fighting for, but he claimed Conal's vacant heritage.

I take it back, the Wardens DID use one Kerensky Bloodheritage that did not arrive in Lyran space- Natasha's heritage that Ranna took.  We do not even have any indication they 'used' Ulric's heritage going forward.

The Crusader Wolves in the few interactions we get between them and the Wardens outside of Phelan/Vlad show respect between the warriors and recognition of their Bloodnames as legitimate.  When Alaric temporarily seized the Warden observer before they turned on the Lyrans, he was given the honor of his Bloodname and invited to return.  Alaric's general call for them to return also did not indicate they were viewed as a separate Clan.  He also recognized the Warden Wolves' resurrection of Jaguar Bloodhouses, letting the a Weaver fight a Trial of Propagation that was won . . . though the Crusaders had no access/control to the legacies at that time.

Finally, while we know there is A Kerensky and N Kerensky Bloodhouses the writers have never told us which one any of the named characters.

As said before, it is unfortunate TPTB have never delved into the Bloodhouses or their politics because it is the underlying foundation of all of the Clans politics.  I do not expect that to change and there is a chance this could get handwaved where the Bloodhouses are consolidated after the ilClan Trial and as part of the victorious side have their Bloodname counts expanded to 50 possible if they were all propagated or at least the count as of the time of the landing on Terra.  IE, say between the two Clans there were an active 38 Wards or whatever.  This recognizes that most Bloodname counts would not have been at full count anyway.
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Re: Terra. Home to ilClan Wolf.
« Reply #173 on: 27 May 2022, 14:08:04 »
Quote
The ONLY case was Phelan's Ward heritage which is what everyone assumed Vlad was fighting for, but he claimed Conal's vacant heritage.

pretty sure it was the exact oppisite there Colt

 

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