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Author Topic: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions  (Read 19678 times)

Sjhernan3060

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After re reading my copy of wars of reaving I was intrigued by the story of when the depleted ravens trialed for and successful won a number of warships and their crews from the scorpions.

That got me thinking of the odd couple best buds the mandrills and the spirits. Kindraa mick Kreese if I recall correctly was noted for its strong aero and warship lines as well as being “ very ambitious”

Scenario: kindraa mick kreese and the spirits team up to hit an orbital cache and or trial for warships as the ravens did.

Questions:

1) Can a kindraa leader do such a big operation without khan level approval? The control of warships was a very touchy issues amongst the mandrills as it was feared that any kindraa which had too many warships could then have too much sway...

2) say the operation is consider dodegy from a chain of command POV as long as it is successful doesn’t that wash away all wrongs?




Frogfoot

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #1 on: 27 March 2019, 14:23:36 »
Kindraa mick Kreese
They become Kindraa Mick-Kreese-Kline in 3067 so bear that in mind if you're playing in or after that year.

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1) Can a kindraa leader do such a big operation without khan level approval? The control of warships was a very touchy issues amongst the mandrills as it was feared that any kindraa which had too many warships could then have too much sway...
Individual Kindraa pretty much do whatever they like. They're effectively autonomous. They might face Trials of Grievance from the Khan or other Kindraa if what they're doing is unpopular, other Kindraa might cancel any trade pacts or joint research projects with them, and there's a chance of getting censured by the Clan Council. Plus, any Kindraa that gets a windfall of isorla and doesn't want to share it can expect a lot of unfriendly Trials of Possession coming their way from their peers. But if a Kindraa wants to do its own thing then there's precious little a Khan can do about it unless they can unite the rest of the Clan. An example of that happening would be how the Mandrills reacted when they found out about Matilla-Carrol's dealings with Clan Coyote.

In your scenario, I'd expect the Khan and other Kindraa to put a lot of pressure on the Mick-Kreese-Klines to share the wealth. In the short term it would probably be in Kindraa MKK's interest to do so since I doubt they have the facilities to support a half-dozen extra Warships. If they didn't feel like doing so then you're going to go down the classic Fire Mandrill path: bad-tempers and bloody noses. If the other Mandrills couldn't match the MKK's new naval might then they'd probably just go after their enclaves instead.

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2) say the operation is consider dodegy from a chain of command POV as long as it is successful doesn’t that wash away all wrongs?
Success certainly helps, but it can make a Kindraa seem like more of a dangerous rival too, breeding jealousy and paranoia among their peers.


Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #2 on: 27 March 2019, 14:47:03 »
They become Kindraa Mick-Kreese-Kline in 3067 so bear that in mind if you're playing in or after that year.
Individual Kindraa pretty much do whatever they like. They're effectively autonomous. They might face Trials of Grievance from the Khan or other Kindraa if what they're doing is unpopular, other Kindraa might cancel any trade pacts or joint research projects with them, and there's a chance of getting censured by the Clan Council. Plus, any Kindraa that gets a windfall of isorla and doesn't want to share it can expect a lot of unfriendly Trials of Possession coming their way from their peers. But if a Kindraa wants to do its own thing then there's precious little a Khan can do about it unless they can unite the rest of the Clan. An example of that happening would be how the Mandrills reacted when they found out about Matilla-Carrol's dealings with Clan Coyote.

In your scenario, I'd expect the Khan and other Kindraa to put a lot of pressure on the Mick-Kreese-Klines to share the wealth. In the short term it would probably be in Kindraa MKK's interest to do so since I doubt they have the facilities to support a half-dozen extra Warships. If they didn't feel like doing so then you're going to go down the classic Fire Mandrill path: bad-tempers and bloody noses. If the other Mandrills couldn't match the MKK's new naval might then they'd probably just go after their enclaves instead.
Success certainly helps, but it can make a Kindraa seem like more of a dangerous rival too, breeding jealousy and paranoia among their peers.

This is were the spirits would come in. Btw I should stated this idea is pre wars of reaving.

As they both hated the burrocks perhaps a joint attack on the burocks less defended enclaves and cached warships before the absorption was finished?

Or perhaps targeted strikes right after the absorption? To weaken the newly strong adders rather than the disastrous attack the spirits did?

Frogfoot

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #3 on: 27 March 2019, 15:36:00 »
As they both hated the burrocks perhaps a joint attack on the burocks less defended enclaves and cached warships before the absorption was finished?
The logistics for this are going to be tough. The Spirit and Mick-Kreese naval forces might be strong enough to overwhelm a local Burrock defence but the cached Warships are going to take a long time to reactivate. That would be plenty of time for the Burrocks to show up with reinforcements and launch a new Trial of Possession to recover what they lost. It's possible that the semantics of the Trial could avoid this problem, e.g "we lay claim to the cached Warships and the right to their safe relocation from this system" but that might be unacceptable under Clan Honour since it's an attempt to avoid another fight. Maybe if the Ravens are involved too in some kind of contract bid... but there'd need to be something in it for them.

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Or perhaps targeted strikes right after the absorption? To weaken the newly strong adders rather than the disastrous attack the spirits did?
Same issues as the above, though the non-Burrock Adders wouldn't have the hatred of the Spirits that they did canonically so the Trials wouldn't be so brutal.


Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #4 on: 28 March 2019, 09:34:57 »
If the mandrills trialed for an won ships plus crew how could they leverage that in their own clan?

Kallor

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #5 on: 28 March 2019, 11:51:47 »
The Blood Spirits wouldn't waste the resources going after warships, dont forget they traded several away to the Ravens for mechs. They only keep the ones they have out of sheer necessity.

May I suggest that your Kindra go for an easier target? The Ice Hellions are spread out all over clan space, they have several ships that are operating solo and they wouldn't likely be able to gather their navy for a strong counter attack like the Adders/Burrocks could.


Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #6 on: 29 March 2019, 10:10:08 »
The Blood Spirits wouldn't waste the resources going after warships, dont forget they traded several away to the Ravens for mechs. They only keep the ones they have out of

That was true when they were desperate for mechs and in isolation. Post 3059 they did need and lacked a stronger naval arm

Kallor

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #7 on: 29 March 2019, 15:39:11 »
That was true when they were desperate for mechs and in isolation. Post 3059 they did need and lacked a stronger naval arm

They absolutely needed a larger navy, but they didnt realize that till 3067 when they lost one ship to the Adder blockade, when they went to raid Tathis.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #8 on: 29 March 2019, 18:01:24 »
They absolutely needed a larger navy, but they didnt realize that till 3067 when they lost one ship to the Adder blockade, when they went to raid Tathis.

Per FM crusaders: their fleet commander blamed the loss of the absorption war ( 3060)in part to the small navy they had

Kallor

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #9 on: 29 March 2019, 19:08:23 »
Per FM crusaders: their fleet commander blamed the loss of the absorption war ( 3060)in part to the small navy they had

I stand corrected! I am just re-reading the FMs since it has been a while. Looks like you have solid justification to go warship shopping.

Frogfoot

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #10 on: 29 March 2019, 22:19:29 »
If the mandrills trialed for an won ships plus crew how could they leverage that in their own clan?
Hand the Warships out to the others for prestige, political favours and resources. Or, keep them all and declare themselves to be the new core of the Clan's naval might.

The Warships don't really have any use in strong-arming the other Kindraa, even the Mandrills wouldn't be crazy enough to orbitally bombard their rivals' enclaves.


Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #11 on: 02 April 2019, 13:46:55 »
In addition to trails of possession against any cached adder or jaguar warships ( circa 3060) I thought another potential target would be the scorpions. Both the spirits and mandrills hold them in contempt and they seemed to possess a larger navy than they knew what to do with..

rebs

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #12 on: 02 April 2019, 14:27:35 »
In addition to trails of possession against any cached adder or jaguar warships ( circa 3060) I thought another potential target would be the scorpions. Both the spirits and mandrills hold them in contempt and they seemed to possess a larger navy than they knew what to do with..

In the Wars of Reaving, the Snow Ravens arrive at the same observation and they target the Scorpion fleet for Trials of Possession.  That backs up your observation quite well. 

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #13 on: 02 April 2019, 15:29:49 »
In the Wars of Reaving, the Snow Ravens arrive at the same observation and they target the Scorpion fleet for Trials of Possession.  That backs up your observation quite well.

That’s what inspired this thread!

I support the idea of a raven ship whupping any other clans ship one on one which is what made think of kindraa mick kreese as they are noted for their warship captains as well.

Frankly it always annoyed me that the scorpions had a nightlord as well...

rebs

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #14 on: 03 April 2019, 01:34:56 »
That’s what inspired this thread!

I support the idea of a raven ship whupping any other clans ship one on one which is what made think of kindraa mick kreese as they are noted for their warship captains as well.

Frankly it always annoyed me that the scorpions had a nightlord as well...

Yeah the Ravens seem to have built Nightlords for almost everyone.  But not quite everyone.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #15 on: 08 April 2019, 14:55:59 »
So if post Burrock absorption wanted to hit the cached excess warships the adders got how would our two clans get that info?

If they wanted to seize an enclave that they could hold what would be a logical target? Maybe am adder enclave whose defense are now weakened? Ideas welcome!

Kallor

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #16 on: 08 April 2019, 18:38:08 »
Have the Blood Spirits higher a sizable fleet from the Snow Ravens and attack Albion. Albion is close to York so you wont need a long supply chain and it was  capital so has lots of manufacturing facilities. Offer the Ravens 10% of the system, the Cheop yards and any Battleship/cruisers they claim as isoral. This nets you the rest of the defending warships and access to any in system caches they may have. Then you have the Ravens right there with yards to bring them up to fighting status for you.

...I may be thinking of offering the Blood Spirits in my game a similar deal. The move just makes sense for both clans to me.


Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #17 on: 08 April 2019, 19:45:48 »
Have the Blood Spirits higher a sizable fleet from the Snow Ravens and attack Albion. Albion is close to York so you wont need a long supply chain and it was  capital so has lots of manufacturing facilities. Offer the Ravens 10% of the system, the Cheop yards and any Battleship/cruisers they claim as isoral. This nets you the rest of the defending warships and access to any in system caches they may have. Then you have the Ravens right there with yards to bring them up to fighting status for you.

...I may be thinking of offering the Blood Spirits in my game a similar deal. The move just makes sense for both clans to me.


Interesting idea.... so to clarify you are suggesting that the spirits attempt to take and hold Albion for the manufacturing on planet while the ravens run naval and aero cover?


Kallor

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #18 on: 08 April 2019, 21:28:03 »
Exactly. Between the warships attached to specific Galaxies and the reserve fleets available. Albion should be the second most defended system after Sheridan.

There are 4 front line and 3 seconding clusters on planet, and 7 warships in system. Nightlord, Liberator, 2x York, Lola and 2x Vincent.

If I were the Ravens I would want the Yorks and the Nightlord.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #19 on: 08 April 2019, 23:24:20 »
Exactly. Between the warships attached to specific Galaxies and the reserve fleets available. Albion should be the second most defended system after Sheridan.

There are 4 front line and 3 seconding clusters on planet, and 7 warships in system. Nightlord, Liberator, 2x York, Lola and 2x Vincent.

If I were the Ravens I would want the Yorks and the Nightlord.

So let’s expand on this. How easy or hard was the fight on Albion between the adders and burrocks?

In this scenario I would suggest that the spirits wait until after the absorption and perhaps bring in kindraa mick kreese who also specializes in naval warfare

Kallor

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #20 on: 08 April 2019, 23:57:40 »
Well it was the capital so the Burrocks would have had their Elite troops there. At that point the Adders could not have known that Burrock warriors would only put up a token defense. So they would have sent their Elites as well, plus a Naval Star per clan.

Hands down, I'd wait till the absorbtion was complete, way less troops to deal with.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #21 on: 10 April 2019, 07:48:38 »
Well it was the capital so the Burrocks would have had their Elite troops there. At that point the Adders could not have known that Burrock warriors would only put up a token defense. So they would have sent their Elites as well, plus a Naval Star per clan.

Hands down, I'd wait till the absorbtion was complete, way less troops to deal with.

Re read the Albion write up in FMC and the fighting between the adders and burrocks was “ brutal” the hardcore and leadership of the clan fought and died against the adders.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #22 on: 10 April 2019, 07:56:59 »
Also what is the the accepted wait time after a trial of absorption to attack the newly strong clan?


Foxx Ital

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #23 on: 10 April 2019, 08:10:19 »
Also what is the the accepted wait time after a trial of absorption to attack the newly strong clan?

 3 days, don't wanna seem desperate  ;)
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Kallor

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #24 on: 10 April 2019, 09:04:47 »
Re read the Albion write up in FMC and the fighting between the adders and burrocks was “ brutal” the hardcore and leadership of the clan fought and died against the adders.

I'm slowly re-reading warden and crusader FMs, I haven't gotten to "S" yet. I'll do better research before I try to answer questions.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #25 on: 16 April 2019, 11:03:53 »
I would like the mysterious Cheops shipyards which are only mentioned here as a prime target for kindraa mick kreese

And then perhaps the spirits could blockade Albion and beat up on the garrison as the adders did to them in cannon?

Even with nearly twice the touman remember the spirits did not intervene I am not sure if they have the industrial strength to maintain a siege though...

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #26 on: 11 August 2019, 20:38:25 »
Edit: what if the target is only the shipyards? And I know they were only mentioned once but if the Mick Kreese provided their excellent marines to take and hold the shipyards that would have put a real squeeze on the adder fleet which had swollen in size after the burrock absorption. That would have forced the adders to go to the ravens for yardtime which the ravens would have gouged the for.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #27 on: 30 August 2019, 11:35:47 »
Flipping the scenario a bit the WOR sourcebook cited a number of examples were long buried caches of warships were reactivated. As aero experts why not have kindraa mick kreese provide TA for a spirit reclamation force to hit B grade caches like the strana mechty one which held the quick silver mongoose ( and I assume other ships) or the adder caches

In return for their help to get the ships mobile the spirits could jump start mick kreese protomech program.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #28 on: 03 September 2019, 18:21:26 »
After re reading my copy of wars of reaving I was intrigued by the story of when the depleted ravens trialed for and successful won a number of warships and their crews from the scorpions.

That got me thinking of the odd couple best buds the mandrills and the spirits. Kindraa mick Kreese if I recall correctly was noted for its strong aero and warship lines as well as being “ very ambitious”

Scenario: kindraa mick kreese and the spirits team up to hit an orbital cache and or trial for warships as the ravens did.

Questions:

1) Can a kindraa leader do such a big operation without khan level approval? The control of warships was a very touchy issues amongst the mandrills as it was feared that any kindraa which had too many warships could then have too much sway...

2) say the operation is consider dodegy from a chain of command POV as long as it is successful doesn’t that wash away all wrongs?

In this scenario who from the defending side can authorize the trial? If the mandrills attempted to trial the scorpions for a naval star who accepts the challenge?

The galaxy commander which the star is attached to or the star admiral? Or does that require khan level approval?

Stormlion1

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #29 on: 03 September 2019, 20:05:54 »
The Blood Spirits might do better bankrolling another Clans endeavour with ammunition, repairs, and equipment rather than taking part themselves. They were the smallest Clan at this point and another Clan might take issue with there strikes for something as valuable as a warship.

I've always thought they would have done better following in the Hells Horses footsteps and offering there services as a Garrison Force to a Inner Sphere Clan.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #30 on: 03 September 2019, 20:46:05 »
The Blood Spirits might do better bankrolling another Clans endeavour with ammunition, repairs, and equipment rather than taking part themselves. They were the smallest Clan at this point and another Clan might take issue with there strikes for something as valuable as a warship.

I've always thought they would have done better following in the Hells Horses footsteps and offering there services as a Garrison Force to a Inner Sphere Clan.

Alas what could have been... can you imagine blood spirit snow raven team up? The spirts would have been great spear carriers for an invader esp with their specialization in defense.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #31 on: 05 December 2019, 11:16:13 »
Also what is the the accepted wait time after a trial of absorption to attack the newly strong clan?

Was rereading FM warden clans and it mentions that the scorpions pretty much attacked the jags the moment they heard huntress was being assaulted. This netted them some nice territory etc.

Seems to me that the moment the smoke cleared on Albion after the adders crushed the burrock elite is when the spirits should have attacked.

With their much larger than known touman and mandrill allies as back up I think the case could have been made for them to take and hold the world and the ship yards.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #32 on: 19 December 2019, 17:28:34 »
Have the Blood Spirits higher a sizable fleet from the Snow Ravens and attack Albion. Albion is close to York so you wont need a long supply chain and it was  capital so has lots of manufacturing facilities. Offer the Ravens 10% of the system, the Cheop yards and any Battleship/cruisers they claim as isoral. This nets you the rest of the defending warships and access to any in system caches they may have. Then you have the Ravens right there with yards to bring them up to fighting status for you.

...I may be thinking of offering the Blood Spirits in my game a similar deal. The move just makes sense for both clans to me.

I always get murky but on how trials of possession work. If they hit the Cheops shipyards could they only trial for control of the yards and not the warships on hand?

If so how would that affect bidding?

Stormlion1

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #33 on: 20 December 2019, 17:55:33 »
They would have to include control of the warships waiting there as part of the bid. So the shipyards and the warships, Jumpships, and the dropships would all require one grand bid including them all or individual bids to take control. A defender can opt to include everything in the defense as well.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #34 on: 20 December 2019, 18:27:54 »
They would have to include control of the warships waiting there as part of the bid. So the shipyards and the warships, Jumpships, and the dropships would all require one grand bid including them all or individual bids to take control. A defender can opt to include everything in the defense as well.

If they struck together could the parameters me:

Blood spirits trial for ships on hand

Mandrills trial for the yards?


Stormlion1

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #35 on: 20 December 2019, 22:03:21 »
Honestly this might be seen as dishonorable by the defending Clan as they would have to split there defensive bids. Two against one as it were. But that's just my guess honestly.
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RifleMech

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #36 on: 21 December 2019, 00:42:06 »
I always get murky but on how trials of possession work. If they hit the Cheops shipyards could they only trial for control of the yards and not the warships on hand?

If so how would that affect bidding?

It could change the amount, type, and quality of forces they use to defend their property with. The more that's bid on the greater the units bid in their defense.

They would have to include control of the warships waiting there as part of the bid. So the shipyards and the warships, Jumpships, and the dropships would all require one grand bid including them all or individual bids to take control. A defender can opt to include everything in the defense as well.


Actually, you don't have to bid on more than what you want. If you just want the yards, only bid on the yards.

Honestly this might be seen as dishonorable by the defending Clan as they would have to split there defensive bids. Two against one as it were. But that's just my guess honestly.

It might if they were seen acting together and in concert. Even then they'd still their own bidding to take their targets and they'd still have to fight for them. I think it would be dishonorable if they trialed for one but used a bid large enough to take both.

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #37 on: 22 December 2019, 18:42:48 »
It could change the amount, type, and quality of forces they use to defend their property with. The more that's bid on the greater the units bid in their defense.


Actually, you don't have to bid on more than what you want. If you just want the yards, only bid on the yards.

It might if they were seen acting together and in concert. Even then they'd still their own bidding to take their targets and they'd still have to fight for them. I think it would be dishonorable if they trialed for one but used a bid large enough to take both.

Right so I’d say the mandrills bid it down to a ship duel for the yards and the spirits did the same for the ships that would be ok?

RifleMech

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #38 on: 23 December 2019, 05:46:21 »
Right so I’d say the mandrills bid it down to a ship duel for the yards and the spirits did the same for the ships that would be ok?

That would depend on what was bid in their defense. Clans want to bid less than the defenders so that taking the prize is a challenge and will gain them honor. Usually. There are exceptions such as forcing a rival to bid too low and get hurt. Defenders of course want to bid high enough to keep the prize but still have the fight be a challenge to gain honor. Usually. Sometimes they'll be really low when they want to lose or bid everything when the prize is super valuable or they just don't like the other and want to make them pay.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #39 on: 23 December 2019, 07:25:26 »
That would depend on what was bid in their defense. Clans want to bid less than the defenders so that taking the prize is a challenge and will gain them honor. Usually. There are exceptions such as forcing a rival to bid too low and get hurt. Defenders of course want to bid high enough to keep the prize but still have the fight be a challenge to gain honor. Usually. Sometimes they'll be really low when they want to lose or bid everything when the prize is super valuable or they just don't like the other and want to make them pay.


Very true. So to not run afoul of clan custom and or law they would need to declare the trial and explain who is fighting for what correct?

RifleMech

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #40 on: 23 December 2019, 11:34:40 »

Very true. So to not run afoul of clan custom and or law they would need to declare the trial and explain who is fighting for what correct?

Correct. They'd say what they'd want and ask what forces the defenders would be using. Then they'd decide what forces to send against it. If questioned about the timing of another Clan's attack their best response would be "Coincidence. If they get in our way, they will pay for their arrogance." or something.

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #41 on: 18 January 2020, 15:51:04 »
Was rereading FM warden clans and it mentions that the scorpions pretty much attacked the jags the moment they heard huntress was being assaulted. This netted them some nice territory etc.

Seems to me that the moment the smoke cleared on Albion after the adders crushed the burrock elite is when the spirits should have attacked.

With their much larger than known touman and mandrill allies as back up I think the case could have been made for them to take and hold the world and the ship yards.


Also if the adders did lose this prize it would have hobbled their bloated fleet and I would think it would have really upset the former burrocks which would have caused the adders more trouble

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #42 on: 20 January 2020, 02:20:15 »
I admire your determination to upset the Adders.  Yes, Albion would be a boon, but will all those former Burrock civilians properly absorb when it's the Blood Spirits who are their new lords?  Seems like it would become the Spirits' newest headache. 

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #43 on: 20 January 2020, 09:29:06 »
I admire your determination to upset the Adders.  Yes, Albion would be a boon, but will all those former Burrock civilians properly absorb when it's the Blood Spirits who are their new lords?  Seems like it would become the Spirits' newest headache.

That is a great question! Per the FM the rank and file folks were horrified by the burrock leaderships collusion with the Dark. Hence why they rolled over for the adders. The spirits had never had to govern folks beyond their own for decades and I am very curious how they would have handled it

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #44 on: 11 February 2020, 19:25:55 »
Ok I just received the amazing shipyard kit from ravenstar studios which will feature heavily in this campaign. But the campaign needs a name! How about operation blood and fire?

Too on the nose?

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #45 on: 11 February 2020, 19:37:21 »
Monkey Spirit would not be as good, and Monkey Blood might be too visceral.  So Blood and Fire or Fire Blood is the way to go.

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #46 on: 12 February 2020, 06:19:05 »
Lol I like monkey spirit!

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #47 on: 18 February 2020, 01:34:45 »
I admire your determination to upset the Adders.  Yes, Albion would be a boon, but will all those former Burrock civilians properly absorb when it's the Blood Spirits who are their new lords?  Seems like it would become the Spirits' newest headache.

I dunno. I admit, I'm fairly new to the universe, but I get the sense that civilian castes don't hold the same grudges that the warrior castes hold. They might not like the Blood Spirits, but if they are treated right, they'd probably get on board real quick. If not.... well, then they probably would be a headache.

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #48 on: 23 February 2020, 21:08:38 »
I dunno. I admit, I'm fairly new to the universe, but I get the sense that civilian castes don't hold the same grudges that the warrior castes hold. They might not like the Blood Spirits, but if they are treated right, they'd probably get on board real quick. If not.... well, then they probably would be a headache.

You know on the burrock/adder side I am not so sure. Up until the absorption the spirits and been in isolation

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #49 on: 25 April 2020, 22:22:58 »
After rereading the spirits sigma galaxy entry in fm crusaders it mentions they darn near revolted when they were not given permission to assist the mandrills... if another blood house wanted to join a kindraa from outside of the mandrills, would said house have to be abjured first?

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #50 on: 18 May 2020, 15:03:26 »
After rereading the spirits sigma galaxy entry in fm crusaders it mentions they darn near revolted when they were not given permission to assist the mandrills... if another blood house wanted to join a kindraa from outside of the mandrills, would said house have to be abjured first?

Considering previous precedents like the Harvest Trials, and various Clusters and Galaxies changing hands, as well as the trading and trialing for various Bloodrights up to and including an entire Blood House. No abjuration would be required. If the 2 Clans are relatively friendly to each other and the Clan gaining the Blood House could offer enough to offset the loss of the Blood House they could make a trade. If the 2 Clans are unfriendly to each other or can't offer enough for a trade deal, they would need to initiate a Trial of Possession for the Blood House. Though currently in use Blood Houses are very valuable commodities, so it's almost unheard of outside Trials of Absorption for an entire Blood House to exclusively change hands from one Clan to another. Though gaining significant access to the use of the genes of a Blood House becomes quite common in the wake of the losses post WoR.

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #51 on: 28 May 2020, 21:18:47 »
That’s what inspired this thread!

I support the idea of a raven ship whupping any other clans ship one on one which is what made think of kindraa mick kreese as they are noted for their warship captains as well.

Frankly it always annoyed me that the scorpions had a nightlord as well...

In universe would other clans know that mick kreese has exceptional warship captains?

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #52 on: 28 May 2020, 21:31:08 »
The Snow Ravens might notice.

Not sure about the other clans.

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #53 on: 28 May 2020, 22:29:44 »
The Snow Ravens might notice.

Not sure about the other clans.

That’s what would think as well. It’s the basis for my idea that a canny mandrill warship captain could pull off a stunning upset and net his kindraa a huge victory

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #54 on: 29 May 2020, 14:46:38 »
Given the earlier statement about the Ravens whooping any other Clans in a one-on-one battle, I have doubts.

I've always viewed the real-world parallel of the Snow Ravens' navy to the Royal Navy. I believe that the Ravens even maintained a Two Power Standard (naval power equivalent to at least two other powers combined) similar to the Victorian Brits.

While the Royal Navy has been responsible for some of the most famous naval victories in history, they didn't always have the most competent admirals (see: HMS Victoria and HMS Camperdown, 1893). Accordingly, if you believe the parallel between the RN and Clan Snow Raven, the Raven obsession with naval power may indeed include some brilliant naval minds; however, it is largely formed on the basis of overwhelming firepower.

I can't think of any Snow Raven naval actions that relied on superior WarShip captains. While the whittling down of the Raven navy may have been sparked by real-world narrative desires to remove a staggeringly powerful force from a minor power (seriously, the Ravens' part in the Jihad was essentially "All of your WarShips blow up"), I can contextualize their losses as part of a weakness in the Ravens part. Too much shining-up-the-ships, parades, neatly-dressed officers, and not enough actual experience in naval combat (again, mirroring the Royal Navy of the late-Victorian age).

That is all to say, I would absolutely believe in the possibility of exceptional Mick-Kreese WarShip captains. They are forced to command their vessels isolated from the remainder of the Fire Mandrills' navy. They likely fight a bit more often against the other Kindraa, gaining experience in naval tactics. One-on-one, I don't think it is a given that the Ravens win (despite my factional allegiance!), due to their reliance on overwhelming numbers.

Given the relative obscurity of the Fire Mandrills and the rarity of naval combat, I doubt that even the Ravens would notice the skill of the Mick-Kreese captains. I think your idea of a stunning upset absolutely had merit, particularly when the other Clan has a stronger belief in their naval tradition. And hey, it doesn't have to be the Ravens either.

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #55 on: 29 May 2020, 19:50:24 »
Given the earlier statement about the Ravens whooping any other Clans in a one-on-one battle, I have doubts.

I've always viewed the real-world parallel of the Snow Ravens' navy to the Royal Navy. I believe that the Ravens even maintained a Two Power Standard (naval power equivalent to at least two other powers combined) similar to the Victorian Brits.

While the Royal Navy has been responsible for some of the most famous naval victories in history, they didn't always have the most competent admirals (see: HMS Victoria and HMS Camperdown, 1893). Accordingly, if you believe the parallel between the RN and Clan Snow Raven, the Raven obsession with naval power may indeed include some brilliant naval minds; however, it is largely formed on the basis of overwhelming firepower.

I can't think of any Snow Raven naval actions that relied on superior WarShip captains. While the whittling down of the Raven navy may have been sparked by real-world narrative desires to remove a staggeringly powerful force from a minor power (seriously, the Ravens' part in the Jihad was essentially "All of your WarShips blow up"), I can contextualize their losses as part of a weakness in the Ravens part. Too much shining-up-the-ships, parades, neatly-dressed officers, and not enough actual experience in naval combat (again, mirroring the Royal Navy of the late-Victorian age).

That is all to say, I would absolutely believe in the possibility of exceptional Mick-Kreese WarShip captains. They are forced to command their vessels isolated from the remainder of the Fire Mandrills' navy. They likely fight a bit more often against the other Kindraa, gaining experience in naval tactics. One-on-one, I don't think it is a given that the Ravens win (despite my factional allegiance!), due to their reliance on overwhelming numbers.

Given the relative obscurity of the Fire Mandrills and the rarity of naval combat, I doubt that even the Ravens would notice the skill of the Mick-Kreese captains. I think your idea of a stunning upset absolutely had merit, particularly when the other Clan has a stronger belief in their naval tradition. And hey, it doesn't have to be the Ravens either.

Nibs thank you for that very insightful post! The seed for this thread came from my reread of FM crusaders which noted the very strong warship bloodlines of mick kreese and the wars of reaving source book where a raven captain challenged for and won nearly an entire naval star.

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #56 on: 29 May 2020, 20:02:33 »
Nibs thank you for that very insightful post! The seed for this thread came from my reread of FM crusaders which noted the very strong warship bloodlines of mick kreese and the wars of reaving source book where a raven captain challenged for and won nearly an entire naval star.

Oh, I don't remember this one! I have my Wars of Reaving here under my desk; do you recall the page(s) that this happens?

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #57 on: 29 May 2020, 22:47:58 »
Oh, I don't remember this one! I have my Wars of Reaving here under my desk; do you recall the page(s) that this happens?

Here ya https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sagitta

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #58 on: 08 June 2020, 08:16:13 »
Also another another target for our dynamic duo would have been the Brian caches of the jags or nova cats

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #59 on: 08 June 2020, 23:07:40 »
As you and others  pointed out in the Save the Jags thread, the Smoke Jaguars Brian caches are well nigh cashed in all likelyhood.  But the Nova Cat caches are probably a safe bet for decent equipment - from Star League designs, to IIC's, to to the occasional older OmniMechs.   The Nova Cats were a relatively rich Clan, so anything is possible, certainly all this.

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #60 on: 09 June 2020, 00:53:42 »
As you and others  pointed out in the Save the Jags thread, the Smoke Jaguars Brian caches are well nigh cashed in all likelyhood.  But the Nova Cat caches are probably a safe bet for decent equipment - from Star League designs, to IIC's, to to the occasional older OmniMechs.   The Nova Cats were a relatively rich Clan, so anything is possible, certainly all this.

I also in my head have the idea that as a clan with a big fleet a convo or cache of warships would have been possible targets

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #61 on: 25 June 2020, 16:46:12 »
I just reread some source books and holy heck the absorption war was a waste for the spirits! They lost 5 galaxies and got nothing!! If they had held off a year they could have dropped a huge force on huntress or any other tempting target with a very good chance of holding it.

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #62 on: 09 September 2020, 10:22:51 »
Smaller scale idea: the spirits eventually took over the mandrills watch in canon but I am not sure if it is stated what they got in return?

Perhaps some of the ultra elite mick kreese pilots were loaned out as trainers to beef up the spirits naval arm?

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #63 on: 05 October 2020, 17:30:10 »
Smaller scale idea: the spirits eventually took over the mandrills watch in canon but I am not sure if it is stated what they got in return?

Perhaps some of the ultra elite mick kreese pilots were loaned out as trainers to beef up the spirits naval arm?

Would the watch have been used to scout out secret colony sites?

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #64 on: 05 October 2020, 18:10:20 »
I don't think the Watch were used for colony sites I thought it was Merchants that found Colleen and Merchants are likely the only caste with the freedom (under the watchful eye of a Warrior minder) and incentive to find new habitable systems. In my opinion the Spirits took the Mandrill Watch over at the Loremaster's request in exchange for support of the Kindraa in the event of an attack and to use them as an alternate intermediaries to the Sharks for trade reasons. They also probably received aid in developing weapon designs and expanding factories from the Mandrills which were undergoing a bit of an expansion before being kicked down during Reaving.

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #65 on: 05 October 2020, 19:06:43 »
I just reread some source books and holy heck the absorption war was a waste for the spirits! They lost 5 galaxies and got nothing!! If they had held off a year they could have dropped a huge force on huntress or any other tempting target with a very good chance of holding it.

Yep.  It did not make any sense.  They could/should have waited for the Absorption to end and then trial for select parts of the Burrocks.  The Adders would probably have been glad to pare down those new troops and maybe some of their holdings which may not have been worth defending.   

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #66 on: 05 October 2020, 22:37:53 »
I don't think the Watch were used for colony sites I thought it was Merchants that found Colleen and Merchants are likely the only caste with the freedom (under the watchful eye of a Warrior minder) and incentive to find new habitable systems. In my opinion the Spirits took the Mandrill Watch over at the Loremaster's request in exchange for support of the Kindraa in the event of an attack and to use them as an alternate intermediaries to the Sharks for trade reasons. They also probably received aid in developing weapon designs and expanding factories from the Mandrills which were undergoing a bit of an expansion before being kicked down during Reaving.

That makes sense. I also just love the idea of the poor spirit warrior who had to knock heads together on their joint watch unit.

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #67 on: 19 November 2020, 10:28:14 »
Yep.  It did not make any sense.  They could/should have waited for the Absorption to end and then trial for select parts of the Burrocks.  The Adders would probably have been glad to pare down those new troops and maybe some of their holdings which may not have been worth defending.

Exactly! The mandrills also should have done this. Heck between the spirits and mandrills aggressively going after former burrock assets they could have really blunted the adders growth.

For that matter rather than batter themselves in wasteful conflicts during the WOR the mandrills should’ve shined! They could have snap up some choice bloodnames and formed new kindraa

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #68 on: 01 December 2020, 14:52:42 »
During the abjuration of the nova cats did the mandrills or spirits get involved if so where?

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #69 on: 27 January 2021, 15:10:09 »
Yep.  It did not make any sense.  They could/should have waited for the Absorption to end and then trial for select parts of the Burrocks.  The Adders would probably have been glad to pare down those new troops and maybe some of their holdings which may not have been worth defending.

In addition once more clans left or where kicked out the spirits and mandrills could have really claimed a lot more

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #70 on: 14 February 2021, 09:25:01 »
While in canon the proto phenotype was developed by the spirits and cobras:

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/ProtoMech_Phenotype

Could the mandrills have done so as well and or did they adopt it?

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #71 on: 14 February 2021, 12:32:24 »
While in canon the proto phenotype was developed by the spirits and cobras:

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/ProtoMech_Phenotype

Could the mandrills have done so as well and or did they adopt it?

They couldn’t have done it on their own probably, it’s mentioned that even their scientists were split along kindra lines and they had bad research cause of it. Unless they felt it was Omni level they wouldn’t be able to band together long enough to make it work.

And even if they did the fact it takes 20 years to get a single warrior out of it would hamper them, they would have died out as soon as they were getting the first generation.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #72 on: 14 February 2021, 17:59:30 »
They couldn’t have done it on their own probably, it’s mentioned that even their scientists were split along kindra lines and they had bad research cause of it. Unless they felt it was Omni level they wouldn’t be able to band together long enough to make it work.

And even if they did the fact it takes 20 years to get a single warrior out of it would hamper them, they would have died out as soon as they were getting the first generation.

Sigh oh mandrills... medium and long term planning just is not your thing!


Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #73 on: 14 February 2021, 19:44:36 »
Sigh oh mandrills... medium and long term planning just is not your thing!

not sure short term is something they plan for either.  ???
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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #74 on: 25 February 2021, 14:58:00 »
Yep.  It did not make any sense.  They could/should have waited for the Absorption to end and then trial for select parts of the Burrocks.  The Adders would probably have been glad to pare down those new troops and maybe some of their holdings which may not have been worth defending.

Did the various kindraa all collectively dislike the burrocks? If so that is another reason to wait the chaotic mandrills could have broken off more chunks of former burrock strength from the adders

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #75 on: 25 May 2021, 17:21:47 »
They couldn’t have done it on their own probably, it’s mentioned that even their scientists were split along kindra lines and they had bad research cause of it. Unless they felt it was Omni level they wouldn’t be able to band together long enough to make it work.

And even if they did the fact it takes 20 years to get a single warrior out of it would hamper them, they would have died out as soon as they were getting the first generation.

Again in an AU where the mandrills were unmandrill, the development of proto tech could have helped the kindraa work together to adopt and improve proto tech earlier

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #76 on: 13 July 2021, 13:11:09 »
I don't think the Watch were used for colony sites I thought it was Merchants that found Colleen and Merchants are likely the only caste with the freedom (under the watchful eye of a Warrior minder) and incentive to find new habitable systems. In my opinion the Spirits took the Mandrill Watch over at the Loremaster's request in exchange for support of the Kindraa in the event of an attack and to use them as an alternate intermediaries to the Sharks for trade reasons. They also probably received aid in developing weapon designs and expanding factories from the Mandrills which were undergoing a bit of an expansion before being kicked down during Reaving.

As ties between the spirits and mandrills got closer I am surprised that the mandrills esp mick kreese with its strong navy were not more heavily involved with the spirits new colonies
S

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #77 on: 05 October 2021, 17:40:09 »
I assume each kindraa leader tended to act with out the say so of the khan but would the opposite have been true of the spirits?

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #78 on: 10 November 2021, 18:30:28 »
As you and others  pointed out in the Save the Jags thread, the Smoke Jaguars Brian caches are well nigh cashed in all likelyhood.  But the Nova Cat caches are probably a safe bet for decent equipment - from Star League designs, to IIC's, to to the occasional older OmniMechs.   The Nova Cats were a relatively rich Clan, so anything is possible, certainly all this.

As fast as they had to pull up stakes I would imagine some caches had to be abandon


What were some common second line Mech and or vechiles the nova cats would have cached?
« Last Edit: 31 January 2023, 14:02:13 by Sjhernan3060 »

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #79 on: 10 December 2021, 20:02:35 »
3 days, don't wanna seem desperate  ;)

Lol! But seriously what IS the acceptable wait time?

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #80 on: 05 January 2022, 18:16:42 »
As you and others  pointed out in the Save the Jags thread, the Smoke Jaguars Brian caches are well nigh cashed in all likelyhood.  But the Nova Cat caches are probably a safe bet for decent equipment - from Star League designs, to IIC's, to to the occasional older OmniMechs.   The Nova Cats were a relatively rich Clan, so anything is possible, certainly all this.

That’s a great point I always got the sense that the nova cats were always on the top tier of resources so I would assume they had well stocked caches which likely had not been tapped since the golden century. However their escape from the homeworlds was a rushed mess so I have to believe a huge amount of material was left

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #81 on: 20 January 2022, 14:02:29 »
They couldn’t have done it on their own probably, it’s mentioned that even their scientists were split along kindra lines and they had bad research cause of it. Unless they felt it was Omni level they wouldn’t be able to band together long enough to make it work.

And even if they did the fact it takes 20 years to get a single warrior out of it would hamper them, they would have died out as soon as they were getting the first generation.

I am curious about the specific handicaps the mandrills fractured nature would have caused amongst scientists. Would for example prototypes and research teams be reapeatldy trailed over?

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #82 on: 25 March 2022, 19:31:58 »
I assume each kindraa leader tended to act with out the say so of the khan but would the opposite have been true of the spirits?

Bumping this up again

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #83 on: 25 March 2022, 19:42:58 »
I assume each kindraa leader tended to act with out the say so of the khan but would the opposite have been true of the spirits?

I seem to recall a statement in one of the sourcebooks which stated that the Spirit officers were reluctant to take their own initiative, which did handicap their actions in the Absorption War.

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #84 on: 31 March 2022, 17:07:18 »
Hand the Warships out to the others for prestige, political favours and resources. Or, keep them all and declare themselves to be the new core of the Clan's naval might.

The Warships don't really have any use in strong-arming the other Kindraa, even the Mandrills wouldn't be crazy enough to orbitally bombard their rivals' enclaves.

So I think I know the answer to this but in the scenario outlined earlier: say kindraa mick kreese without khan approval trialed for and won a several warships from a rival clan. If kindraa mick kreese said: “
Well we are the core of clans navy now so if the clan who we attacked counter strikes it should be seen as a threat to all kindraa” but even as typed that I can imagine the other kindraa would be like: hey man you brought this on yourself!

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #85 on: 28 June 2022, 09:30:23 »
With all the great mandrill discussions happening because of the recent Sharpnel story, I was wondering did the smythe jewels actually do any joint missions with the spirits?

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #86 on: 05 October 2022, 12:53:20 »
With all the great mandrill discussions happening because of the recent Sharpnel story, I was wondering did the smythe jewels actually do any joint missions with the spirits?

Also the sharpnel story really paints the smythe jewels in a bad light do we think they were waiting to cross the spirits?

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #87 on: 25 December 2022, 12:42:21 »
Also the sharpnel story really paints the smythe jewels in a bad light do we think they were waiting to cross the spirits?

Following up on this: the mandrills are beloved by the spirits due to the history with the smythe jewels but everything else I have read on them the smythe/jewels were shady as heck! So would they have betrayed the spirits given time?

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #88 on: 25 December 2022, 13:53:08 »
We don't know. Pure speculation either way.

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #89 on: 25 December 2022, 22:09:27 »
We don't know. Pure speculation either way.

I guess it’s lucky for the mandrills that the other kindraa dealt fairly with the spirits

 

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