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Author Topic: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions  (Read 19678 times)

Sjhernan3060

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After re reading my copy of wars of reaving I was intrigued by the story of when the depleted ravens trialed for and successful won a number of warships and their crews from the scorpions.

That got me thinking of the odd couple best buds the mandrills and the spirits. Kindraa mick Kreese if I recall correctly was noted for its strong aero and warship lines as well as being “ very ambitious”

Scenario: kindraa mick kreese and the spirits team up to hit an orbital cache and or trial for warships as the ravens did.

Questions:

1) Can a kindraa leader do such a big operation without khan level approval? The control of warships was a very touchy issues amongst the mandrills as it was feared that any kindraa which had too many warships could then have too much sway...

2) say the operation is consider dodegy from a chain of command POV as long as it is successful doesn’t that wash away all wrongs?




Frogfoot

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #1 on: 27 March 2019, 14:23:36 »
Kindraa mick Kreese
They become Kindraa Mick-Kreese-Kline in 3067 so bear that in mind if you're playing in or after that year.

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1) Can a kindraa leader do such a big operation without khan level approval? The control of warships was a very touchy issues amongst the mandrills as it was feared that any kindraa which had too many warships could then have too much sway...
Individual Kindraa pretty much do whatever they like. They're effectively autonomous. They might face Trials of Grievance from the Khan or other Kindraa if what they're doing is unpopular, other Kindraa might cancel any trade pacts or joint research projects with them, and there's a chance of getting censured by the Clan Council. Plus, any Kindraa that gets a windfall of isorla and doesn't want to share it can expect a lot of unfriendly Trials of Possession coming their way from their peers. But if a Kindraa wants to do its own thing then there's precious little a Khan can do about it unless they can unite the rest of the Clan. An example of that happening would be how the Mandrills reacted when they found out about Matilla-Carrol's dealings with Clan Coyote.

In your scenario, I'd expect the Khan and other Kindraa to put a lot of pressure on the Mick-Kreese-Klines to share the wealth. In the short term it would probably be in Kindraa MKK's interest to do so since I doubt they have the facilities to support a half-dozen extra Warships. If they didn't feel like doing so then you're going to go down the classic Fire Mandrill path: bad-tempers and bloody noses. If the other Mandrills couldn't match the MKK's new naval might then they'd probably just go after their enclaves instead.

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2) say the operation is consider dodegy from a chain of command POV as long as it is successful doesn’t that wash away all wrongs?
Success certainly helps, but it can make a Kindraa seem like more of a dangerous rival too, breeding jealousy and paranoia among their peers.


Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #2 on: 27 March 2019, 14:47:03 »
They become Kindraa Mick-Kreese-Kline in 3067 so bear that in mind if you're playing in or after that year.
Individual Kindraa pretty much do whatever they like. They're effectively autonomous. They might face Trials of Grievance from the Khan or other Kindraa if what they're doing is unpopular, other Kindraa might cancel any trade pacts or joint research projects with them, and there's a chance of getting censured by the Clan Council. Plus, any Kindraa that gets a windfall of isorla and doesn't want to share it can expect a lot of unfriendly Trials of Possession coming their way from their peers. But if a Kindraa wants to do its own thing then there's precious little a Khan can do about it unless they can unite the rest of the Clan. An example of that happening would be how the Mandrills reacted when they found out about Matilla-Carrol's dealings with Clan Coyote.

In your scenario, I'd expect the Khan and other Kindraa to put a lot of pressure on the Mick-Kreese-Klines to share the wealth. In the short term it would probably be in Kindraa MKK's interest to do so since I doubt they have the facilities to support a half-dozen extra Warships. If they didn't feel like doing so then you're going to go down the classic Fire Mandrill path: bad-tempers and bloody noses. If the other Mandrills couldn't match the MKK's new naval might then they'd probably just go after their enclaves instead.
Success certainly helps, but it can make a Kindraa seem like more of a dangerous rival too, breeding jealousy and paranoia among their peers.

This is were the spirits would come in. Btw I should stated this idea is pre wars of reaving.

As they both hated the burrocks perhaps a joint attack on the burocks less defended enclaves and cached warships before the absorption was finished?

Or perhaps targeted strikes right after the absorption? To weaken the newly strong adders rather than the disastrous attack the spirits did?

Frogfoot

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #3 on: 27 March 2019, 15:36:00 »
As they both hated the burrocks perhaps a joint attack on the burocks less defended enclaves and cached warships before the absorption was finished?
The logistics for this are going to be tough. The Spirit and Mick-Kreese naval forces might be strong enough to overwhelm a local Burrock defence but the cached Warships are going to take a long time to reactivate. That would be plenty of time for the Burrocks to show up with reinforcements and launch a new Trial of Possession to recover what they lost. It's possible that the semantics of the Trial could avoid this problem, e.g "we lay claim to the cached Warships and the right to their safe relocation from this system" but that might be unacceptable under Clan Honour since it's an attempt to avoid another fight. Maybe if the Ravens are involved too in some kind of contract bid... but there'd need to be something in it for them.

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Or perhaps targeted strikes right after the absorption? To weaken the newly strong adders rather than the disastrous attack the spirits did?
Same issues as the above, though the non-Burrock Adders wouldn't have the hatred of the Spirits that they did canonically so the Trials wouldn't be so brutal.


Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #4 on: 28 March 2019, 09:34:57 »
If the mandrills trialed for an won ships plus crew how could they leverage that in their own clan?

Kallor

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #5 on: 28 March 2019, 11:51:47 »
The Blood Spirits wouldn't waste the resources going after warships, dont forget they traded several away to the Ravens for mechs. They only keep the ones they have out of sheer necessity.

May I suggest that your Kindra go for an easier target? The Ice Hellions are spread out all over clan space, they have several ships that are operating solo and they wouldn't likely be able to gather their navy for a strong counter attack like the Adders/Burrocks could.


Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #6 on: 29 March 2019, 10:10:08 »
The Blood Spirits wouldn't waste the resources going after warships, dont forget they traded several away to the Ravens for mechs. They only keep the ones they have out of

That was true when they were desperate for mechs and in isolation. Post 3059 they did need and lacked a stronger naval arm

Kallor

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #7 on: 29 March 2019, 15:39:11 »
That was true when they were desperate for mechs and in isolation. Post 3059 they did need and lacked a stronger naval arm

They absolutely needed a larger navy, but they didnt realize that till 3067 when they lost one ship to the Adder blockade, when they went to raid Tathis.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #8 on: 29 March 2019, 18:01:24 »
They absolutely needed a larger navy, but they didnt realize that till 3067 when they lost one ship to the Adder blockade, when they went to raid Tathis.

Per FM crusaders: their fleet commander blamed the loss of the absorption war ( 3060)in part to the small navy they had

Kallor

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #9 on: 29 March 2019, 19:08:23 »
Per FM crusaders: their fleet commander blamed the loss of the absorption war ( 3060)in part to the small navy they had

I stand corrected! I am just re-reading the FMs since it has been a while. Looks like you have solid justification to go warship shopping.

Frogfoot

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #10 on: 29 March 2019, 22:19:29 »
If the mandrills trialed for an won ships plus crew how could they leverage that in their own clan?
Hand the Warships out to the others for prestige, political favours and resources. Or, keep them all and declare themselves to be the new core of the Clan's naval might.

The Warships don't really have any use in strong-arming the other Kindraa, even the Mandrills wouldn't be crazy enough to orbitally bombard their rivals' enclaves.


Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #11 on: 02 April 2019, 13:46:55 »
In addition to trails of possession against any cached adder or jaguar warships ( circa 3060) I thought another potential target would be the scorpions. Both the spirits and mandrills hold them in contempt and they seemed to possess a larger navy than they knew what to do with..

rebs

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #12 on: 02 April 2019, 14:27:35 »
In addition to trails of possession against any cached adder or jaguar warships ( circa 3060) I thought another potential target would be the scorpions. Both the spirits and mandrills hold them in contempt and they seemed to possess a larger navy than they knew what to do with..

In the Wars of Reaving, the Snow Ravens arrive at the same observation and they target the Scorpion fleet for Trials of Possession.  That backs up your observation quite well. 

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #13 on: 02 April 2019, 15:29:49 »
In the Wars of Reaving, the Snow Ravens arrive at the same observation and they target the Scorpion fleet for Trials of Possession.  That backs up your observation quite well.

That’s what inspired this thread!

I support the idea of a raven ship whupping any other clans ship one on one which is what made think of kindraa mick kreese as they are noted for their warship captains as well.

Frankly it always annoyed me that the scorpions had a nightlord as well...

rebs

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #14 on: 03 April 2019, 01:34:56 »
That’s what inspired this thread!

I support the idea of a raven ship whupping any other clans ship one on one which is what made think of kindraa mick kreese as they are noted for their warship captains as well.

Frankly it always annoyed me that the scorpions had a nightlord as well...

Yeah the Ravens seem to have built Nightlords for almost everyone.  But not quite everyone.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #15 on: 08 April 2019, 14:55:59 »
So if post Burrock absorption wanted to hit the cached excess warships the adders got how would our two clans get that info?

If they wanted to seize an enclave that they could hold what would be a logical target? Maybe am adder enclave whose defense are now weakened? Ideas welcome!

Kallor

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #16 on: 08 April 2019, 18:38:08 »
Have the Blood Spirits higher a sizable fleet from the Snow Ravens and attack Albion. Albion is close to York so you wont need a long supply chain and it was  capital so has lots of manufacturing facilities. Offer the Ravens 10% of the system, the Cheop yards and any Battleship/cruisers they claim as isoral. This nets you the rest of the defending warships and access to any in system caches they may have. Then you have the Ravens right there with yards to bring them up to fighting status for you.

...I may be thinking of offering the Blood Spirits in my game a similar deal. The move just makes sense for both clans to me.


Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #17 on: 08 April 2019, 19:45:48 »
Have the Blood Spirits higher a sizable fleet from the Snow Ravens and attack Albion. Albion is close to York so you wont need a long supply chain and it was  capital so has lots of manufacturing facilities. Offer the Ravens 10% of the system, the Cheop yards and any Battleship/cruisers they claim as isoral. This nets you the rest of the defending warships and access to any in system caches they may have. Then you have the Ravens right there with yards to bring them up to fighting status for you.

...I may be thinking of offering the Blood Spirits in my game a similar deal. The move just makes sense for both clans to me.


Interesting idea.... so to clarify you are suggesting that the spirits attempt to take and hold Albion for the manufacturing on planet while the ravens run naval and aero cover?


Kallor

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #18 on: 08 April 2019, 21:28:03 »
Exactly. Between the warships attached to specific Galaxies and the reserve fleets available. Albion should be the second most defended system after Sheridan.

There are 4 front line and 3 seconding clusters on planet, and 7 warships in system. Nightlord, Liberator, 2x York, Lola and 2x Vincent.

If I were the Ravens I would want the Yorks and the Nightlord.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #19 on: 08 April 2019, 23:24:20 »
Exactly. Between the warships attached to specific Galaxies and the reserve fleets available. Albion should be the second most defended system after Sheridan.

There are 4 front line and 3 seconding clusters on planet, and 7 warships in system. Nightlord, Liberator, 2x York, Lola and 2x Vincent.

If I were the Ravens I would want the Yorks and the Nightlord.

So let’s expand on this. How easy or hard was the fight on Albion between the adders and burrocks?

In this scenario I would suggest that the spirits wait until after the absorption and perhaps bring in kindraa mick kreese who also specializes in naval warfare

Kallor

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #20 on: 08 April 2019, 23:57:40 »
Well it was the capital so the Burrocks would have had their Elite troops there. At that point the Adders could not have known that Burrock warriors would only put up a token defense. So they would have sent their Elites as well, plus a Naval Star per clan.

Hands down, I'd wait till the absorbtion was complete, way less troops to deal with.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #21 on: 10 April 2019, 07:48:38 »
Well it was the capital so the Burrocks would have had their Elite troops there. At that point the Adders could not have known that Burrock warriors would only put up a token defense. So they would have sent their Elites as well, plus a Naval Star per clan.

Hands down, I'd wait till the absorbtion was complete, way less troops to deal with.

Re read the Albion write up in FMC and the fighting between the adders and burrocks was “ brutal” the hardcore and leadership of the clan fought and died against the adders.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #22 on: 10 April 2019, 07:56:59 »
Also what is the the accepted wait time after a trial of absorption to attack the newly strong clan?


Foxx Ital

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #23 on: 10 April 2019, 08:10:19 »
Also what is the the accepted wait time after a trial of absorption to attack the newly strong clan?

 3 days, don't wanna seem desperate  ;)
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Kallor

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #24 on: 10 April 2019, 09:04:47 »
Re read the Albion write up in FMC and the fighting between the adders and burrocks was “ brutal” the hardcore and leadership of the clan fought and died against the adders.

I'm slowly re-reading warden and crusader FMs, I haven't gotten to "S" yet. I'll do better research before I try to answer questions.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #25 on: 16 April 2019, 11:03:53 »
I would like the mysterious Cheops shipyards which are only mentioned here as a prime target for kindraa mick kreese

And then perhaps the spirits could blockade Albion and beat up on the garrison as the adders did to them in cannon?

Even with nearly twice the touman remember the spirits did not intervene I am not sure if they have the industrial strength to maintain a siege though...

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #26 on: 11 August 2019, 20:38:25 »
Edit: what if the target is only the shipyards? And I know they were only mentioned once but if the Mick Kreese provided their excellent marines to take and hold the shipyards that would have put a real squeeze on the adder fleet which had swollen in size after the burrock absorption. That would have forced the adders to go to the ravens for yardtime which the ravens would have gouged the for.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #27 on: 30 August 2019, 11:35:47 »
Flipping the scenario a bit the WOR sourcebook cited a number of examples were long buried caches of warships were reactivated. As aero experts why not have kindraa mick kreese provide TA for a spirit reclamation force to hit B grade caches like the strana mechty one which held the quick silver mongoose ( and I assume other ships) or the adder caches

In return for their help to get the ships mobile the spirits could jump start mick kreese protomech program.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #28 on: 03 September 2019, 18:21:26 »
After re reading my copy of wars of reaving I was intrigued by the story of when the depleted ravens trialed for and successful won a number of warships and their crews from the scorpions.

That got me thinking of the odd couple best buds the mandrills and the spirits. Kindraa mick Kreese if I recall correctly was noted for its strong aero and warship lines as well as being “ very ambitious”

Scenario: kindraa mick kreese and the spirits team up to hit an orbital cache and or trial for warships as the ravens did.

Questions:

1) Can a kindraa leader do such a big operation without khan level approval? The control of warships was a very touchy issues amongst the mandrills as it was feared that any kindraa which had too many warships could then have too much sway...

2) say the operation is consider dodegy from a chain of command POV as long as it is successful doesn’t that wash away all wrongs?

In this scenario who from the defending side can authorize the trial? If the mandrills attempted to trial the scorpions for a naval star who accepts the challenge?

The galaxy commander which the star is attached to or the star admiral? Or does that require khan level approval?

Stormlion1

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Re: Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions
« Reply #29 on: 03 September 2019, 20:05:54 »
The Blood Spirits might do better bankrolling another Clans endeavour with ammunition, repairs, and equipment rather than taking part themselves. They were the smallest Clan at this point and another Clan might take issue with there strikes for something as valuable as a warship.

I've always thought they would have done better following in the Hells Horses footsteps and offering there services as a Garrison Force to a Inner Sphere Clan.
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