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Author Topic: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III  (Read 38735 times)

CJC070

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #360 on: 18 June 2021, 10:07:24 »
TankWarriors seem to be somewhat mediocre thing right now. Per ER3145, they're barely better than normal vehicle crews. Perhaps they'll improve, but i'm skeptical they'll ever become as important as the other Clan phenotypes.
I don't think the concept of naturally better vehicle crews is bad, i just reckon that the Horses' starting from MechWarriors and Elementals for this may have been a slight mistake. Naturally you need a starting point, but perhaps stuff like this needs more radical origins: create completely new Bloodnames, with new stock of DNA. This might also help integrate Spheroids: offer them a chance to join the Warrior Caste. But i understand Clans tendency toward conservatism in stuff like this might make this politically impossible, even if new phenotype is itself innovative.

Considering they will try to take Terra and also invade the rest of the OZ I can see them trying to integrate themselves closer with the IS.  To be honest the potential for growth is one of the reasons why the CHH is starting to grow on me.  Remember this conservatism is mainly with the Wolves and Falcons.  The Sea Foxes are more merchants than warriors and both the Ghost Bears and Snow Ravens are more about integration than subjugation with mixed results.

Drewbacca

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #361 on: 18 June 2021, 12:00:07 »
Not sure what is derpy with the Balius. Each configuration is pretty solid, good speed, decent armor. I love that mech.

Empyrus

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #362 on: 19 June 2021, 13:31:11 »
Turns out i don't like Hell's Horses paint schemes. Didn't find any i like in Camospecs. This is awkward, i kinda wanted to make my Kickstarter Clan 'Mechs into a Horse unit.
Of course, i can always opt for a camo (have few ideas).
But i guess i'll wait until we'll see how stuff will be going on post-IlClan book before committing.

Not sure what is derpy with the Balius. Each configuration is pretty solid, good speed, decent armor. I love that mech.
Ugly, derpy looking, hand assembled (ie it is inefficient), design-wise inefficient (dropping to 60 tons would free two tons, make it cheaper, and merely lose some internal structure). Also i'm very unhappy with cramming a large pulse laser into a 'Mechs arse, even if quads have harder time watching their backs than bipedals.
I'll grant the configurations are in general pretty smart though, and though inefficiently constructed, the 'Mech doesn't fortunately really suffer for that. Indeed, as configuration variety goes, i will give the Balius good scores.
I suppose my major issue with the 'Mech is that the Horses insisted on combining a totem and OmniMech, would've very strongly preferred focusing on either aspect. An Omni should have more... mechanical/functional lines.
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Ruger

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #363 on: 19 June 2021, 18:48:57 »
Turns out i don't like Hell's Horses paint schemes. Didn't find any i like in Camospecs. This is awkward, i kinda wanted to make my Kickstarter Clan 'Mechs into a Horse unit.
Of course, i can always opt for a camo (have few ideas).
But i guess i'll wait until we'll see how stuff will be going on post-IlClan book before committing.

I rather like the Keshiks, and Alpha, Beta, Zeta and Iota Galaxy schemes myself.

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Nerroth

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #364 on: 19 June 2021, 21:59:54 »
In game terms, does the Horse take on the Mongol Doctrine work any better at the Alpha Strike level than it does in Total Warfare? For one thing, perhaps the more generous way in which movement to-hit modifiers work in AS might favour the light and medium units acting in the "Steppe horse archer" role.

For that matter, do QuadVees - to include the relatively recent Notos design - function any better (or worse) in AS terms than in TW?

Speaking of QuadVees, I wonder if we might see a broader variety of wheeled types in, or perhaps in the wake of, Tamar Rising.
« Last Edit: 19 June 2021, 22:04:21 by Nerroth »

CJC070

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #365 on: 20 June 2021, 08:46:13 »
In game terms, does the Horse take on the Mongol Doctrine work any better at the Alpha Strike level than it does in Total Warfare? For one thing, perhaps the more generous way in which movement to-hit modifiers work in AS might favour the light and medium units acting in the "Steppe horse archer" role.

For that matter, do QuadVees - to include the relatively recent Notos design - function any better (or worse) in AS terms than in TW?

Speaking of QuadVees, I wonder if we might see a broader variety of wheeled types in, or perhaps in the wake of, Tamar Rising.

Since every Operation Turning point or equivalent has new toys to play with it would not surprise me if we see at least prototypes of new quadvees if not a new quadvee introduced during the taking of Falcon territory.

Maelwys

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #366 on: 20 June 2021, 21:17:22 »
For that matter, do QuadVees - to include the relatively recent Notos design - function any better (or worse) in AS terms than in TW?

They gain the Turret special, giving them a 360 attack, which isn't bad. They can switch movement modes, which allows them to play a bit with LOS if you want.

truetanker

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #367 on: 21 June 2021, 18:14:41 »
Can someone please explain to me mongrel doctrine and associated Cluster organization?  I am not getting it or finding it unless it was updated on Sarna in the last month or so.

Bowmans, Kingfishers and Epona with an occasional Fast Recon Point!

Sounds about right, quiaff?

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Kasaga

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #368 on: 22 June 2021, 03:54:26 »
Bowmans, Kingfishers and Epona with an occasional Fast Recon Point!

Sounds about right, quiaff?

TT

Aff.

Nerroth

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #369 on: 06 July 2021, 21:45:57 »
I recently picked up the Kindle edition of a book which takes an in-depth look at ulus Jochi, the Golden Horde (the historical one, as opposed to Malvina Hazen's Golden Ordun); one of the four main sub-divisions of the Mongol Empire. The Jochids, descended from the eldest son of Chinggis Khan (again, the "real one", not the former Jade Falcon leader) ruled over the "north-west" portion of the Mongol dominions.

If one were to look at a "BattleTech-style" political map of the Jochid realm at its height, one might see echoes of the Free Worlds League, but in reverse. The "open" steppe areas would be held by the White Horde of the "main" Batuid line in the centre, the Blue Horde of the secondary Ordaid line to the east, and the Horde of General Nogay to the west. There might be arrows marking each Horde's seasonal migrations, as they made transit from one "capital" site to another and back again. (The Horde did not build walled capitals in the traditional manner of sedentary empires; there were built districts intended to house merchants and artisans from various sedentary peoples in places like Sarai, but the Mongols themselves lived in tent cities that were routinely re-configured and/or re-located as required.) Meanwhile, the sedentary vassals of the Horde, such as the Rus' principalities, might have bounded sub-territories marked, akin to the FWL's major sub-states.

On the one hand, the Jochids demanded tribute from their various subjects, to include a levy on human beings: for one thing, they established a maritime trade route via Constantinople to Alexandria by which they provided slave-soldiers to the armies of the Mamluk Sultanate. But on the other hand, they also worked to foster and diversify trade both within and across their borders, not least by providing merchants access to the yam (the three-tiered long-distance communication system used across the Mongol dominions).

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Now, it's noted that the Horses live apart from their Spheroid subjects, in "DropShip cities" around which the locals often build more permanent settlements. And it's also noted that the Horses have a surplus of JumpShips, allowing them to set up command circuits as partial compensation for the loss of the HPG network. However, while the Horse touman has more or less fully embraced the Mongol Doctrine in a strictly military sense, there has as yet not been any signs of the Horses more fully leaning into the Mongol "doctrines" of governance.

Perhaps this might be something which could change during, or in the wake of, the events soon to be portrayed in Tamar Rising. Say, if the Horses were to establish "client states" in certain areas - perhaps even in and around Tamar itself - with their own vassal military forces. That would in effect reverse the relationship which the Clan Protectorate forces have with the "federal" FWLM, and provide an alternate means of expanding the range of military forces under Horse control without necessarily incorporating such forces directly into their own touman.

That said, there could be periodical Trials by which the most promising warriors in such vassal military forces could earn a place in the Horse touman. While in the other direction, vassal military forces could be an option for washout and/or solahma soldiers to be assigned to.

At the same time, they could encourage their subject planets' commercial actors to make use of the Horses' JumpShip express network, rather than merely restricting it to members of the Clan's own merchant caste. Plus they could instruct said merchant caste to take a more direct role in promoting commerce within and between the metropoles forming around their "DropShip cities", even as they continue to stand apart from these places in terms of living arrangements.

-----

In short, rather than follow the same measures taken in the Wolf or Scorpion Empires, or the integrative approach pursued by Clan Ghost Bear in the Rasalhague Dominion, perhaps the Horses could go their own route by doubling down on "Mongol" doctrines in their soon-to-be-expanded domain.
« Last Edit: 06 July 2021, 22:25:15 by Nerroth »

Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #370 on: 07 July 2021, 01:27:04 »
Client states seem very unclan like, of all all the ancillary clans (CSR, CHH, CSJ, CNC) in the sphere they have tried the hardest to remain ‘clan-like’.

Only the weak (or the smart, but we know clans have an allergy to that) can’t conquer a populace themselves.

Nerroth

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #371 on: 07 July 2021, 09:23:17 »
I think it's more a case of practicality in the face of drastically changed circumstances.

Up to now, most Clan Occupation Zones have had little in the way of internal sub-division. The Rasalhague Dominion stands out not just in terms of its possessing actual provinces, but also in the manner in which it accounts for the worlds of the Vega Protectorate.

But then, up to this point, most of the Clan OZs have been small enough for this not to have been much of an issue. Particularly in the case of Clan Hell's Horses, who have until now had a relatively small OZ which has been isolated from the Inner Sphere at large by surrounding Clan-held territories.

But now that a Clan has actually managed to conquer Terra and proclaim the ilClanship - even if the Horses insist that such a title is subject to a Trial of Refusal, no matter what Alaric is trying to claim - there are serious questions which the Horses are going to have to ask themselves.

How do they leverage the current window of time (before the Fortress walls around the Sol system shut down) and opportunity (with scores of Wolf and Jade Falcon worlds critically undefended) in order to position themselves for a realistic shot at unseating Alaric? If they do manage to seize Terra, how do they avoid the same mistakes which the Wolves and Jade Falcons had made, in terms of leaving themselves exposed to the next faction making a run at humanity's home world? If they don't succeed in defeating Alaric, is there a backup plan in place which would at least allow them to avoid the fate of the Jade Falcons?

And on a broader note, the Horses might now have to work out and articulate what their version of a Clan-led Star League actually looks like, and how they plan on implementing it. Would they accept House Lords or Periphery rulers as member states, subjugate them as Territorial States, break them up into smaller vassal realms, or attempt to rule over their domains directly? If any of the first three options are chosen, would the member/vassal states be entirely disarmed, or would they be permitted to retain some measure of military force? Would such forces be organized using the Clan force organizational model, or would they continue to be raised as Inner Sphere-type units?

Hence my suggestion about setting up vassal states (and militaries) in an expanded Horse domain. This would, in essence, count both as practice for Clan Hell's Horses in terms of running a "Clan-led Star League in miniature", and (if it works) as a template for incorporating other realms into a Horse-led Star League.

Or, consider this: perhaps the current front-line Horse touman would play the role of the "Royal" regiments of the original SLDF; the cream of the subject armed forces could be organized as akin to the "standard" SLDF regiments (albeit using Clan force organization charts); while the rest would be akin to the member state and Territorial State armed forces - but with the Horses taking greater care to limit the size and capability of such forces, lest they pose the kind of threat to "their" Star League which had been posed to the original one.

In fact, depending on what kind of policies Alaric tries to implement even if he somehow manages to keep the Horses, Capellans, and others at bay, an ongoing rivalry - in terms of competing visions for a Clan-led Star League - could make for an interesting dynamic. Consider that the Jochids were confronted by the Ilkhanate and the Yuan Dynasty, both of which led by the Toluid branch of the "golden lineage". Part of the reasoning behind the Jochid alliance with the Mamluks in Egypt was to contain the ongoing Ilkhanid threat, even if it meant siding with non-Mongols against other Mongols.

So, if the Horses want to get serious about staking a claim to the top table of Inner Sphere powers, they are going to have to take seriously the question of what that means going forward. Be it in terms of what kind of expanded realm they themselves are going to be running, and in terms of how their "endgame" of a Horse-dominated Star League is actually supposed to work.

Nerroth

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #372 on: 09 August 2021, 12:49:20 »
So, based on certain details from both IlClan and The Price of Duty, plus that recently-tweeted teaser image of Tamar Rising, the new campaign map might show not one but (at least) two new Lyran breakaway states on Clan Hell's Horses' expanded borders as of 3152: the reconstituted Tamar Pact, as well as the Melissia-based Vesper Marches. Plus at least a handful of as-yet-unclaimed portions of the former Jade Falcon OZ nestled in between.

Also from IlClan, no doubt the Horses would appreciate the audacity of Terra's Mongolian Cavaliers. Perhaps they might make for good QuadVee pilots?

« Last Edit: 09 August 2021, 12:55:23 by Nerroth »

CJC070

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #373 on: 09 August 2021, 13:03:23 »
Nerroth makes a lot of sense both the Wolves and Hells Horses have some growing up to do in order to creste a stable presence in their portion of the Inner Sphere.  Yes the Wolves have a strong military but 90% of their support was left in the OZ and huge groups of dissatisfied people within the OZ.  Not to mention the Falcon OZ where the phrase “Remember Sudeten” may become a rallying cry against all clansmen regardless of position or Clan affiliation. 

Jellico

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #374 on: 09 August 2021, 13:58:26 »
Time is the big issue. Not in the way you are thinking.

By the time of IlClan Clan Wolf has been in the Empire for most of a decade and Clan Hell's Horses had been in the Wolf OZ nearly as long. The result being both Clans getting an industrial boost over their 3130 starting positions. Neither are industrial pushovers any more.

Nerroth

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #375 on: 09 August 2021, 14:06:13 »
Also, it occurred to me that as of 3151, the only Council of Six Clan which remains "sundered" from its Abjured counterpart is Clan Hell's Horses. Assuming that Clan Stone Lion continues to exist as of the IlClan Era, I suppose.

But then, I can't help but feel that the situation involving the Hell's Horses, the Stone Lions, and the Star Adders was not quite as directly confrontational as others caught up in the Wars of Reaving.

Which might make for an interesting dynamic, if or when we ever hear from the Clan Homeworlds again. What if the "long game" was to use the Horse OZ as a Trojan horse for a Homeworld Clan invasion, with a reunion between the Horses and Lions part of the mix? Or, even if there had been the makings of such an agreement at first, might the Horses have gone too far native in their time in the Inner Sphere, and end up opposing such an invasion?

Alternatively, perhaps the Homeworld Clans themselves end up going their separate ways: the Coyotes at least seemed to have one foot out the door at last reporting, for one. What if the Stone Lions - or some surviving remnant of them - show up in the Horse OZ, but as migrants (or refugees) rather than as conquerors?
« Last Edit: 09 August 2021, 14:18:22 by Nerroth »

Generic Clanner 24601

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #376 on: 09 August 2021, 20:35:47 »
I could see some sort of refugee thing, but I don't see the Hell's Horses and Stone Lions ever reuniting. The Stone Lions were on their way to becoming a their own Clan with new traditions. The Wolves and Wolves-in-Exiles still saw themselves as Wolves. As much time that has passed, I don't think the Lions still consider themselves Horses and considering the way the Taint ideology has shaped Homeworld culture, my guess is that they do not want to associate with the Horses considering their Taint a stain on their own Clan.

The Wobbly Guy

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #377 on: 09 August 2021, 20:37:32 »
Why did Stone mention the homeworld clans to Alaric on his deathbed in the first place? Does he know something the others don't?

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #378 on: 09 August 2021, 20:51:40 »
One last attempt to troll Alaric before he dies, I figure.  At least, in-character, OOC it feels like a potential teaser for the future.

DOC_Agren

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #379 on: 10 August 2021, 00:01:39 »
Why did Stone mention the homeworld clans to Alaric on his deathbed in the first place? Does he know something the others don't?
if he is a WOB puppet like I beleive, maybe he knows more then he should
After all the last big group who didn't at least fake taking Stone Kool Aid was the home clans I can see them wanting to check on them with maybe a Bugeye or something like it
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wantec

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #380 on: 10 August 2021, 11:59:34 »
Total speculation here, but if Seekers made it all the way to Solaris VII, its entirely possible more made contact with Republic agents
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Fletch

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #381 on: 19 August 2021, 04:55:23 »
Lots of good thoughts and speculation. Good to see the Horses getting some attention.

That said, CHH leadership has been sorely lacking since Cobb and the Horses migration to the IS. Can't see Amirault doing much more than throwing toddler tantrums.


rebs

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #382 on: 19 August 2021, 08:38:07 »
Fletch, you're back!

Yeah, the Horses are doing well, and they don't accept any of this IlClan nonsense. >:D

Good for them! 

truetanker

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #383 on: 19 August 2021, 18:57:57 »
Hey Fletch!

While I don't have any news, no news might be good sometimes? Better to see what everyone else is doing.

TT
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TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
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Fletch

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #384 on: 19 August 2021, 23:03:39 »
While I don't have any news, no news might be good sometimes? Better to see what everyone else is doing.

Looking forward to see what Tamar Rising delivers.

Fletch, you're back! 

Plenty to read and catch-up on!

rebs

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #385 on: 19 August 2021, 23:12:24 »
Absolutely.   If you have questions, just ask.

And here's the new tip, I just heard on fb... read IlClan first, then read Hour of the Wolf. The experience is better because the sourcebook gives you the details we all want, and were not really delivered by the novel.

Fletch

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #386 on: 23 August 2021, 00:48:59 »
Got through HoTW and IlClan. Now slowly working my way through the IlClan guides.

As I noted in another forum; Terra now smells like wet dog every time it rains

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #387 on: 25 August 2021, 17:48:41 »
As any one painted up any delta galaxy units? Any tips

Fletch

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #388 on: 01 September 2021, 05:53:54 »

 

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